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Aikido as a Martial Art   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #7589 of 8914 |



…I believe Aikido is a budo and not a martial art in the usual way
we

think of that term. As a budo it is a "way" of life organized around

martial principles...





I don't understand what you mean here. Which don't you think of
in `the usual' way, Budo or Martial Art? Can you clarify as to
what is different between these two things and why [if so] you separate
the two from each other? As I see it, if you presume to be organizing
your life around martial principles wouldn't that mandate that you
are using something `martial' to draw these principles from?





…As to effectiveness, if you mean "street effectiveness" as in
actually

engaging in fights, no traditional "martial art" is readily effective

for that...





Does that mean that I need to learn a whole new skill set to be
considered to be martially effective outside of what I learn in the
dojo? If so, wouldn't that amount to having to learn a whole new art
since you say that it is not the same as what I am supposedly learning
now? And if you claim to be training in a martial art that fosters
`good' Budo shouldn't this `added' skill set already
be incorporated into the outlining principles that you are drawing upon?





…Every art has to be modified for street effectiveness. Arts,

such as karate, that rely on kata have to be modified. But it is not

the techniques so much as the underlying principles that can make an art

street effective. The kihon training is aimed at allowing us to

discover those underlying principles that will enable us to adapt to a

street situation...





We basically agree upon this point. How one applies a technique will not
look like the dojo version but instead end up being a `modified'
version that fits that moment in time because of what you have to work
with at that moment in time? In other words, the Art is not modified,
only the technique is. And by modified I don't mean that the
principles that make it a solid technique are changed only the method of
delivering those principles changes.



After all the whole reason for the study of kihon/kata is to learn these
underlying principles of proper body alignment, balance, centering,
entering [and everything else that is involved] so as to be able to
apply whatever is necessary for that moment at that moment?



I have to ask as well, do these learned principles change or become
invalid just because I have left the physical presence of the dojo?





...Another distinction needs to be made. That is between "fighting" and

"self-defense." There is a major difference between a fighting art and

a self-defense art. Aikido does not translate well either in spirit or

practice to fighting. It can, however, be effectively adapted to very

efficient self-defense. The evidence of this is the many law

enforcement and security agencies worldwide that have adopted Aikido as

their "martial art" of choice...





What is the distinction here? Self defense does not always mean that you
need to fight just as sometimes you need to fight to defend yourself. I
agree that certain things in certain arts may be better suited for
different types of scenarios, but is it the arts themselves that are
better suited for self defense and/or fighting or how you apply the
principles that we say we learn from the study of these different arts?





...Bottom line: No art coming straight from the dojo is going to be

effective on the street. There has to be modification. So, basically,

we train in kihon because it promotes budo. We don't train with a view

toward using our kihon in street encounters, although we could and we

could do so effectively in many circumstances. Just think of evasions,

which are part of kihon waza. If you know how to evade effectively,

isn't that a great martial street skill? If you remove the target, you

can't be struck...





I beg to differ with this point to a certain degree. I personally train
kihon to teach me the principles and strategies that they are meant to
be teaching. Therefore, what I learn from kihon, I absolutely intend to
be able to use in a street encounter [if need be]. A shihonage is a
shihonage is a shihonage! The application itself doesn't change only
the method of delivery.



Like I already said, I would never expect to pull off a dojo perfect
Katate-mochi Shihonage Ni just because someone has grabbed my wrist and
pushes me on the street. However, I would expect to be able to recognize
exactly at what moment it would become advantages to apply any type of
shihonage as the situation becomes ripe for it.



I understand what I think you mean by this and in a way we may be saying
something similar. However, when a person views what they learn from
kihon training as something separate from what they would actually use
outside of the dojo usually indicates that they have not applied all of
the principles fully to their newfound brand of Budo.



As always…



Respectfully,



Charles Burmeister

www.myaa.info <http://www.myaa.info>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




Fri Mar 24, 2006 3:19 am

ChuChuCharlie
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Message #7589 of 8914 |
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…I believe Aikido is a budo and not a martial art in the usual way we think of that term. As a budo it is a "way" of life organized around martial...
Charles
ChuChuCharlie
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Mar 24, 2006
3:19 am

Good point. When I think of "martial" art I think of some sort of combat art, which would entail both offensive and defensive skills, techniques, and tactics....
Shumaker, Gordon
gordon.shumaker@...
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Mar 24, 2006
4:11 pm

Most people don't develop what aikido has to offer in a martial spirit because they are too busy moving around, fixing their dogis, and talking in class....
Marcel Booth
i_luv_starch...
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Mar 24, 2006
5:22 pm

... great thought im totally understanding where your coming from your windsor brother Rick ..... ... Most people don't develop what aikido has to offer in a...
richard reaume
richard_reau...
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Mar 26, 2006
8:55 am

Very good advice! ... From: yoshinkan@yahoogroups.com [mailto:yoshinkan@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marcel Booth Sent: Friday, March 24, 2006 11:22 AM To:...
Shumaker, Gordon
gordon.shumaker@...
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Mar 24, 2006
5:29 pm

Wow,very interesting thread.I personally do Aikido as a martial art.Anything beyond that is dancing and fooling yourself.If I wanted piece of mind I would have...
Brown John
ronin516
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Mar 24, 2006
6:37 pm

These are my responses to a similar conversation on a different Aikido board. I am providing the link here to just my responses first. However, if you have the...
Charles
ChuChuCharlie
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Mar 24, 2006
9:39 pm

Interesting links Charles. I imagine that conversations about the effectiveness of aikido crop up often on the web. I was hoping that the conversation would...
captain_black_belt
captain_blac...
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Mar 27, 2006
3:20 pm

CBB, do other martial arts really offer a 'no-holds' fighting venue to test their skills? Even the Ultimate Fighter bouts have some rules (i.e. no kicking the...
Fred Calef III
cirquelar
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Mar 27, 2006
3:39 pm

There is no debate.Aikido is a martial art(period).As far as it being budo,it is that as well.Samurai learned many fo the techniques for disarming and ...
Brown John
ronin516
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Mar 27, 2006
5:16 pm

I can see both of your points. Fred: No, you are right, most other arts do not offer 'no holds barred' kind of training to ensure that their techniques are ...
captain_black_belt
captain_blac...
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Mar 27, 2006
6:19 pm
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