So I got a new frame and really don't feel like adding another bike to
the basement...so out the old frame goes...plus, the new frame is disc
only, so I'm selling off some non-disc wheels.

Frame:  18" 2001 Kona Kula, yellowish orange.  With RaceFace XY0
seatpost and XT front Der.  This is an Easton Ultralite hardtail
frame....very light...but has been used for about 4 years, so it's got
a good bit of wear and tear.  Has disc and v-brake mounts. Geometry is
setup for an 80mm fork. Can e-mail ya photos if you want - 100 bucks

Wheelset - 2001 Bontrager Race - 9sp, smooth hubs, straight - 50 bucks

Wheelset - Deore XT, 9sp, hubs with Ritchey Rock Rims, WS double-
butted spokes, smooth and straight - 40 bucks


If you want photos or have other questions or want to see, just gimme
a holler:  barryrauhauser@..., 717-252-3673

Thanks, that's certainly good news.

Geo

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> George,
>
> Getting back to you about reseeding....Yes, Duane Close confirmed the
> area will be reseeded.
>
> Skip
>
>
>
>
>  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Skip, are they in fact reseeding the area with new trees?
> >
> > I haven't seen any evidence that Gladfelter reseeded the area they
> > logged to the East of Water St.last year.
> >
> > I'm not a forest ranger so I might be wrong:-)
> >
> > One question......Since you are the President of the Parks Advisory
> > Board and the Parks oversee the management of Kain Park, perhaps you
> > could let the club know whats going in Kain Park *before* it happens
> > so we all aren't surprised when trails disappear.....
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Geo
> >
> >  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey George & All,
> > >
> > > As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
> > > owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
> > > There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
> > > William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
> of
> > > Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
> York
> > > County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
> year
> > > of this 50 year agreement.
> > >
> > > To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
> land,
> > > the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> > > individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
> majority of
> > > Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
> of
> > > George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
> > > unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
> the
> > > property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> > > development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
> off
> > > of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
> the
> > > Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
> foresee
> > > them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
> the
> > > Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
> due
> > > to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
> enough
> > > money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
> in
> > > place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
> of-
> > > way for trail users.
> > >
> > > As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
> of
> > > their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
> > > York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
> > >
> > > Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
> > > taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
> from
> > > time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
> > > trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
> > > These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
> become
> > > over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
> the
> > > forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
> > > across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
> systems
> > > are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
> > > with disease.
> > >
> > > Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> > > devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
> > > volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
> > > through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> > > regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> > > adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
> > >
> > > Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
> for
> > > the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
> Parks.
> > > Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
> gained
> > > from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
> its
> > > way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
> example
> > > of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
> which
> > > the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> > > pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
> > > Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
> entire
> > > bill for this project.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
> for
> > > everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
> > > from the York Water Company, please email me at
> > > Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> > > someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
> topic.
> > >
> > > Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
> of
> > > any further help.
> > >
> > > Yours in Mountain Biking,
> > >
> > > Skip
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> > > <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It *is* a shame.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
> > > looking
> > > > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
> > > > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
> planning
> > > > to sell more land?
> > > >
> > > > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
> the
> > > > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
> there
> > > > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
> rape
> > > > more land?
> > > >
> > > > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> > > >
> > > > Geo
> > > >
> > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> > > > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
> > > > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
> because
> > > I
> > > > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
> > > not "in
> > > > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> > > opportunity
> > > > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
> for
> > > > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> > > > > <eric@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
> lakes
> > > know
> > > > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
> it
> > > and
> > > > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
> in
> > > along
> > > > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
> ever
> > > was
> > > > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
> > > > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
> of
> > > > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
> entrance
> > > to
> > > > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
> > > blocked by
> > > > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
> are
> > > also
> > > > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Eric
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hey Skip,

Unfortunately Seth & I will be out of town this Sat. I apologize that lately our
schedules
haven't allowed us to be at trailwork. Hopefully we can make the next one. Keep
up the
great work!!!!!!! We're proud to work hand in hand with YAMBA. Sincerely, Lisa

George,

Getting back to you about reseeding....Yes, Duane Close confirmed the
area will be reseeded.

Skip




  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
<gmcnallyii@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Skip, are they in fact reseeding the area with new trees?
>
> I haven't seen any evidence that Gladfelter reseeded the area they
> logged to the East of Water St.last year.
>
> I'm not a forest ranger so I might be wrong:-)
>
> One question......Since you are the President of the Parks Advisory
> Board and the Parks oversee the management of Kain Park, perhaps you
> could let the club know whats going in Kain Park *before* it happens
> so we all aren't surprised when trails disappear.....
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Geo
>
>  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey George & All,
> >
> > As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
> > owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
> > There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
> > William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
of
> > Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
York
> > County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
year
> > of this 50 year agreement.
> >
> > To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
land,
> > the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> > individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
majority of
> > Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
of
> > George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
> > unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
the
> > property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> > development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
off
> > of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
the
> > Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
foresee
> > them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
the
> > Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
due
> > to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
enough
> > money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
in
> > place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
of-
> > way for trail users.
> >
> > As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
of
> > their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
> > York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
> >
> > Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
> > taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
from
> > time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
> > trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
> > These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
become
> > over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
the
> > forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
> > across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
systems
> > are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
> > with disease.
> >
> > Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> > devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
> > volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
> > through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> > regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> > adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
> >
> > Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
for
> > the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
Parks.
> > Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
gained
> > from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
its
> > way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
example
> > of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
which
> > the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> > pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
> > Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
entire
> > bill for this project.
> >
> > I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
for
> > everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
> > from the York Water Company, please email me at
> > Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> > someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
topic.
> >
> > Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
of
> > any further help.
> >
> > Yours in Mountain Biking,
> >
> > Skip
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> > <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It *is* a shame.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
> > looking
> > > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
> > > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
planning
> > > to sell more land?
> > >
> > > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
the
> > > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
there
> > > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
rape
> > > more land?
> > >
> > > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> > >
> > > Geo
> > >
> > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> > > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
> > > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
because
> > I
> > > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
> > not "in
> > > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> > opportunity
> > > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
for
> > > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> > > >
> > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> > > > <eric@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
lakes
> > know
> > > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
it
> > and
> > > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
in
> > along
> > > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
ever
> > was
> > > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
> > > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
of
> > > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
entrance
> > to
> > > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
> > blocked by
> > > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
are
> > also
> > > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Eric
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hey Hank, Jim and All,

Duane Close of the Water Company has offered to answer questions,
address concerns and take suggestions in regards to the current
situation with Trail# 4. Duane is the VP of Operations for the York
Water Company and was the former Chairman of the Parks Board + he was
at one time, the Director of the York County Parks. His knowledge of
All of the Parks especially William H. Kain is extensive to say the
least.

I realize that many of you are very frustrated and upset with the
current condition of Trail# 4. I would strongly recommend that you
contact Duane Close at Duanec@... so that he may address
any further concerns that you might have. I have known Duane for over
4 years now having served with him on the Parks Board. He is both
fair and reasonable, is always willing to listen and is a huge
advocate for the York County Parks. Take him up on his offer and drop
him an email with your comments and concerns.

See ya on the trails,

Skip









--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "hank smeltzer"
<goodnightnurse1956@...> wrote:
>
> I heartily support Jim's suggestions in this regard and would also
> support petitioning the Water Co., as a park user(as in an organized
> petition from all usergroups) to institute some sort of formal
review
> process for future cuttings.
> Hank
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Jim,
> >
> > I was fortunate to be kayaking one day over this past Summer and
one
> > of the eagles was perched above me in a tree along the shore of
Lake
> > Williams. I waited for a while hoping to see him dive down to the
> > water to catch his fish of the day but he seemed content to
remain
> > perched atop the tree.
> >
> > In regards to the recent logging, the last I heard was this is
the
> > final section to have a timber harvest performed. Mike Fobes from
> > the Parks Dept. is meeting with an official from the York Water
> > Company and P.H. Gladfelter as I type this message so I should
know
> > more after tomorrow evening's Parks meeting. I will pass along
your
> > idea to Mike Fobes of assessing the impact on the trails and
> > designating a detour for future projects. Not sure why Trail# 4
is
> > not currently closed off with yellow caution tape. It is possible
> > that someone perhaps tore down the tape after being distraught
over
> > the sight of the barren wasteland. Not really sure on that one
but I
> > will you and everyone else informed as I learn more details about
> > the outcome for Trail# 4.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Skip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, ata_jim
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I was cruising 2 at the lakes, right after he "Vietnam" spur
and
> > > before the fast downhill, when I saw some hikers (couple with a
> > young
> > > girl, 3-ish) looking intently over the lake.  I slowed to go
by,
> > and
> > > looked in the same direction they were.  Not 40 ft away perched
on
> > a
> > > branch over the water was a huge brown bird with head and
> > > tailfeathers of white.  It's mate was circling the water, and I
> > > watched it make about 5 passes, talons splashing in attempt to
> > catch
> > > dinner.  I happened to have the point-and-shoot 35mm with me,
so
> > with
> > > any luck I'll be able to post a picture.  I had seen a bald
eagle
> > at
> > > Log Rd about 6 years ago, but haven't seen any at the lakes
since.
> > >
> > > The logging thing - Accepting that the Water Co. will probably
> > > continue to be log whether we want it to or not (I don't like
it,
> > but
> > > it is their land), and moving to the next stage of grief.  Is
it
> > > possible to have the Parks and Water Co. work out a trail
> > management
> > > plan BEFORE logging?  When they decide which section to
harvest,
> > > could they take a little effort to assess the impact on the
trail
> > > system, and designate a detour?  Any detour would have to be
> > clearly
> > > marked, with signs as well as on the map.  Sounds obvious, but
I
> > > still can't get around the new section of 3 from certain
> > directions
> > > even after reading several "word maps" posted here.  And I sure
> > > couldn't figure out how to get through the logged section on 4
> > > today.  I know there was some talk about closing it, but I
didn't
> > see
> > > any signage or tape - in fact the carbonite sign was still
there.
> > > And what about all the trail users that don't have the resource
of
> > > bulletin boards like this?  How is an individual hiker, biker,
or
> > > equestrian going to know what to do when he gets to Water St.?
> > >
> >
>

Hank,

I just hung up with Duane Close of the York Water Company a few
minutes ago and he verified the Water Company has nothing to do with
timber harvests at Spring Valley. He also noted that with the recent
pipeline from the Susquehanna to Lake Redman, there will be no need
to flood Spring Valley as a third impoundment.

Skip



--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "hank smeltzer"
<goodnightnurse1956@...> wrote:
>
> Which is to say(to your knowledge) that(as at the lakes), they are
not
> free to decide to clear cut tracts at Spring Valley?  Just wanted to
> be sure I understand the situation correctly.
> Thanks for addressing these matters.
> Hank
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Hank,
> >
> > The only involvement to my knowledge that the Water Company has
with
> > Spring Valley is concerning a 3rd impoundment for the public
water
> > supply. In the event the Water Company would elect to construct
such
> > an impoundment on the East Branch of the Codurus Creek, the
County
> > would allow the Water Company to flood Spring Valley. However,
with
> > the addition of the recent pipeline from the Susquehanna River to
> > Lake Redman, there should be no need for a third impoundment at
> > Spring Valley in our lifetimes.
> >
> > Talk to you later,
> >
> > Skip
> > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "hank smeltzer"
> > <goodnightnurse1956@> wrote:
> > >
> > > "I
> > > suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
> > likely to
> > > be disturbed in the forseeable future."(from Dave's post re:
Water
> > > Co./Kain Park)
> > >
> > >      This begs the question, What's the possibility of logging
in
> > > Spring Valley?  As originally conceived, it was to be another
Lake
> > > Redman/Lake Williams.  I forget the details.  Was it deeded to
the
> > > parks, or is it still owned by the Water Co.?  T'would be a
rude
> > shock
> > > to find tracts of it being buzz cut with little or no notice as
at
> > the
> > > Lakes.
> > >      This whole situation takes me back to childhood when many
of
> > my
> > > favorite play areas were private property where the owner either
> > > benignly tolerated or was unaware of our presence.  We worked
just
> > as
> > > hard "improving" the area for our play and were no less
devastated
> > > when the owner exercised his prerogative in using the land as
he
> > saw
> > > fit.  Make no mistake about it, what we all do in the parks is
> > play,
> > > no matter how serious and adult we are about it.  And it is that
> > > "play" that enriches our lives.  The rocks and trees are our
> > witnesses
> > >  as ecstatic whoops reverberate after we "clean" a particularly
> > > challenging trail or conquer some obstacle.  What we seek is
joy,
> > and
> > > when we lose the capacity and motivation to do that, our lives
> > begin
> > > the inevitable slide we so fear.  It is said that play is
> > children's
> > > work.  Most adults(myself included) lose that "play ethic" in
the
> > > process of getting serious about our lives.  Those of us with a
> > > concern for the richness of our lives do our best to preserve
that
> > > play ethic.
> > >      The point is, our relationship with the Water Co./Parks at
the
> > > Lakes is essentially that of seriously playing kids on private
> > land.
> > > My wish is that the land owners take an obligation to preserve
> > > community play places as serioualy as they take their bottom
line.
> > > Hank
> > >
> > >          --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com,
> > > skinnyoldman2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for
York
> > Water
> > > > Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses
they
> > will
> > > > do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any
> > effort
> > > > into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks
> > where
> > > > biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail
maintenance.
> > Spring
> > > > Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system
> > are
> > > > already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building
issues.
> > I
> > > > suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
> > likely to
> > > > be disturbed in the forseeable future.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hey Sherri, I may meet up with you guys tomorrow at the Lakes, looks like it
will be a beautiful day!

Brian D.
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: dbacksherri6230
   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, February 27, 2006 2:09 PM
   Subject: YAMBA Tues ride


   We are going to be riding at the Lakes Tues, starting at the boat
   launch at 3:30, we can swing back around at 4:00 or so if anyone else
   is interested.
        Also Wed that is if it doesnt rain we are doing a easy road ride
   from Wetzels in Glen Rock at 5:00,last time I looked it was supposed
   to rain.Bring your lights .
           Sherri






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I heartily support Jim's suggestions in this regard and would also
support petitioning the Water Co., as a park user(as in an organized
petition from all usergroups) to institute some sort of formal review
process for future cuttings.
Hank

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Jim,
>
> I was fortunate to be kayaking one day over this past Summer and one
> of the eagles was perched above me in a tree along the shore of Lake
> Williams. I waited for a while hoping to see him dive down to the
> water to catch his fish of the day but he seemed content to remain
> perched atop the tree.
>
> In regards to the recent logging, the last I heard was this is the
> final section to have a timber harvest performed. Mike Fobes from
> the Parks Dept. is meeting with an official from the York Water
> Company and P.H. Gladfelter as I type this message so I should know
> more after tomorrow evening's Parks meeting. I will pass along your
> idea to Mike Fobes of assessing the impact on the trails and
> designating a detour for future projects. Not sure why Trail# 4 is
> not currently closed off with yellow caution tape. It is possible
> that someone perhaps tore down the tape after being distraught over
> the sight of the barren wasteland. Not really sure on that one but I
> will you and everyone else informed as I learn more details about
> the outcome for Trail# 4.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Skip
>
>
>
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, ata_jim
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > I was cruising 2 at the lakes, right after he "Vietnam" spur and
> > before the fast downhill, when I saw some hikers (couple with a
> young
> > girl, 3-ish) looking intently over the lake.  I slowed to go by,
> and
> > looked in the same direction they were.  Not 40 ft away perched on
> a
> > branch over the water was a huge brown bird with head and
> > tailfeathers of white.  It's mate was circling the water, and I
> > watched it make about 5 passes, talons splashing in attempt to
> catch
> > dinner.  I happened to have the point-and-shoot 35mm with me, so
> with
> > any luck I'll be able to post a picture.  I had seen a bald eagle
> at
> > Log Rd about 6 years ago, but haven't seen any at the lakes since.
> >
> > The logging thing - Accepting that the Water Co. will probably
> > continue to be log whether we want it to or not (I don't like it,
> but
> > it is their land), and moving to the next stage of grief.  Is it
> > possible to have the Parks and Water Co. work out a trail
> management
> > plan BEFORE logging?  When they decide which section to harvest,
> > could they take a little effort to assess the impact on the trail
> > system, and designate a detour?  Any detour would have to be
> clearly
> > marked, with signs as well as on the map.  Sounds obvious, but I
> > still can't get around the new section of 3 from certain
> directions
> > even after reading several "word maps" posted here.  And I sure
> > couldn't figure out how to get through the logged section on 4
> > today.  I know there was some talk about closing it, but I didn't
> see
> > any signage or tape - in fact the carbonite sign was still there.
> > And what about all the trail users that don't have the resource of
> > bulletin boards like this?  How is an individual hiker, biker, or
> > equestrian going to know what to do when he gets to Water St.?
> >
>

Which is to say(to your knowledge) that(as at the lakes), they are not
free to decide to clear cut tracts at Spring Valley?  Just wanted to
be sure I understand the situation correctly.
Thanks for addressing these matters.
Hank

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Hank,
>
> The only involvement to my knowledge that the Water Company has with
> Spring Valley is concerning a 3rd impoundment for the public water
> supply. In the event the Water Company would elect to construct such
> an impoundment on the East Branch of the Codurus Creek, the County
> would allow the Water Company to flood Spring Valley. However, with
> the addition of the recent pipeline from the Susquehanna River to
> Lake Redman, there should be no need for a third impoundment at
> Spring Valley in our lifetimes.
>
> Talk to you later,
>
> Skip
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "hank smeltzer"
> <goodnightnurse1956@> wrote:
> >
> > "I
> > suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
> likely to
> > be disturbed in the forseeable future."(from Dave's post re:  Water
> > Co./Kain Park)
> >
> >      This begs the question, What's the possibility of logging in
> > Spring Valley?  As originally conceived, it was to be another Lake
> > Redman/Lake Williams.  I forget the details.  Was it deeded to the
> > parks, or is it still owned by the Water Co.?  T'would be a rude
> shock
> > to find tracts of it being buzz cut with little or no notice as at
> the
> > Lakes.
> >      This whole situation takes me back to childhood when many of
> my
> > favorite play areas were private property where the owner either
> > benignly tolerated or was unaware of our presence.  We worked just
> as
> > hard "improving" the area for our play and were no less devastated
> > when the owner exercised his prerogative in using the land as he
> saw
> > fit.  Make no mistake about it, what we all do in the parks is
> play,
> > no matter how serious and adult we are about it.  And it is that
> > "play" that enriches our lives.  The rocks and trees are our
> witnesses
> >  as ecstatic whoops reverberate after we "clean" a particularly
> > challenging trail or conquer some obstacle.  What we seek is joy,
> and
> > when we lose the capacity and motivation to do that, our lives
> begin
> > the inevitable slide we so fear.  It is said that play is
> children's
> > work.  Most adults(myself included) lose that "play ethic" in the
> > process of getting serious about our lives.  Those of us with a
> > concern for the richness of our lives do our best to preserve that
> > play ethic.
> >      The point is, our relationship with the Water Co./Parks at the
> > Lakes is essentially that of seriously playing kids on private
> land.
> > My wish is that the land owners take an obligation to preserve
> > community play places as serioualy as they take their bottom line.
> > Hank
> >
> >          --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com,
> > skinnyoldman2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > >      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for York
> Water
> > > Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses they
> will
> > > do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any
> effort
> > > into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks
> where
> > > biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail maintenance.
> Spring
> > > Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system
> are
> > > already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building issues.
> I
> > > suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
> likely to
> > > be disturbed in the forseeable future.
> > >
> >
>

Sherri,
Thanks for the advance notice this time.  If it's not raining Rita and
I will probably be there for the Wednesday ride.
Andy

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, dbacksherri6230
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> We are going to be riding at the Lakes Tues, starting at the boat
> launch at 3:30, we can swing back around at 4:00 or so if anyone
else
> is interested.
>      Also Wed that is if it doesnt rain we are doing a easy road
ride
> from Wetzels in Glen Rock at 5:00,last time I looked it was supposed
> to rain.Bring your lights .
>         Sherri
>

We are going to be riding at the Lakes Tues, starting at the boat
launch at 3:30, we can swing back around at 4:00 or so if anyone else
is interested.
      Also Wed that is if it doesnt rain we are doing a easy road ride
from Wetzels in Glen Rock at 5:00,last time I looked it was supposed
to rain.Bring your lights .
         Sherri

Just to keep anyone who is interested up to date with the MTB trail
opportunities at the PB watershed: I was over there again on
Saturday and discovered two additional abandoned trails, probably
totaling another 2 miles in length.  Both were grade-cut in years
ago by bulldozer but have fallen into disuse and largely forgotten.
From the looks of them, even the hiker types don't use them.

I found one of them looking for a good way to hook two existing
trails together, so I was delighted to find one in this location.
This will open possibilities of different loops that previously had
only one option.  The other one runs somewhat parallel to an
existing fire cut, and as such opens up the possibility of another
loop (out one trail and back the other.)

The catch is that these trails have been so long unused that there
are about 30 large logs fallen across the one, and probably half
that many on the other one.  Since the area is under the tree top
canopy, the undergrowth is minimal, so once you have the trail
maintenance of cutting the deadfall out of the way the trail is
pretty much ready to use.

I had hoped to forge ahead south of Clipper Mill Rd yet this winter
and establish a loop all the way down to Beckleysville Rd and back
up.  But with the discovery of these two gems, it appears my time is
best spent clearing what is already in the northern tip of the
watershed property.  I expect the end result will be about a 12 mile
network of rideable MTB trails by about mid-April.

Andy
PS
If I keep this up, people are going to start calling me "Pretty Boy"!

Hey Jim,

I was fortunate to be kayaking one day over this past Summer and one
of the eagles was perched above me in a tree along the shore of Lake
Williams. I waited for a while hoping to see him dive down to the
water to catch his fish of the day but he seemed content to remain
perched atop the tree.

In regards to the recent logging, the last I heard was this is the
final section to have a timber harvest performed. Mike Fobes from
the Parks Dept. is meeting with an official from the York Water
Company and P.H. Gladfelter as I type this message so I should know
more after tomorrow evening's Parks meeting. I will pass along your
idea to Mike Fobes of assessing the impact on the trails and
designating a detour for future projects. Not sure why Trail# 4 is
not currently closed off with yellow caution tape. It is possible
that someone perhaps tore down the tape after being distraught over
the sight of the barren wasteland. Not really sure on that one but I
will you and everyone else informed as I learn more details about
the outcome for Trail# 4.

Thanks,

Skip




--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, ata_jim
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> I was cruising 2 at the lakes, right after he "Vietnam" spur and
> before the fast downhill, when I saw some hikers (couple with a
young
> girl, 3-ish) looking intently over the lake.  I slowed to go by,
and
> looked in the same direction they were.  Not 40 ft away perched on
a
> branch over the water was a huge brown bird with head and
> tailfeathers of white.  It's mate was circling the water, and I
> watched it make about 5 passes, talons splashing in attempt to
catch
> dinner.  I happened to have the point-and-shoot 35mm with me, so
with
> any luck I'll be able to post a picture.  I had seen a bald eagle
at
> Log Rd about 6 years ago, but haven't seen any at the lakes since.
>
> The logging thing - Accepting that the Water Co. will probably
> continue to be log whether we want it to or not (I don't like it,
but
> it is their land), and moving to the next stage of grief.  Is it
> possible to have the Parks and Water Co. work out a trail
management
> plan BEFORE logging?  When they decide which section to harvest,
> could they take a little effort to assess the impact on the trail
> system, and designate a detour?  Any detour would have to be
clearly
> marked, with signs as well as on the map.  Sounds obvious, but I
> still can't get around the new section of 3 from certain
directions
> even after reading several "word maps" posted here.  And I sure
> couldn't figure out how to get through the logged section on 4
> today.  I know there was some talk about closing it, but I didn't
see
> any signage or tape - in fact the carbonite sign was still there.
> And what about all the trail users that don't have the resource of
> bulletin boards like this?  How is an individual hiker, biker, or
> equestrian going to know what to do when he gets to Water St.?
>

Hey Hank,

The only involvement to my knowledge that the Water Company has with
Spring Valley is concerning a 3rd impoundment for the public water
supply. In the event the Water Company would elect to construct such
an impoundment on the East Branch of the Codurus Creek, the County
would allow the Water Company to flood Spring Valley. However, with
the addition of the recent pipeline from the Susquehanna River to
Lake Redman, there should be no need for a third impoundment at
Spring Valley in our lifetimes.

Talk to you later,

Skip
--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "hank smeltzer"
<goodnightnurse1956@...> wrote:
>
> "I
> suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
likely to
> be disturbed in the forseeable future."(from Dave's post re:  Water
> Co./Kain Park)
>
>      This begs the question, What's the possibility of logging in
> Spring Valley?  As originally conceived, it was to be another Lake
> Redman/Lake Williams.  I forget the details.  Was it deeded to the
> parks, or is it still owned by the Water Co.?  T'would be a rude
shock
> to find tracts of it being buzz cut with little or no notice as at
the
> Lakes.
>      This whole situation takes me back to childhood when many of
my
> favorite play areas were private property where the owner either
> benignly tolerated or was unaware of our presence.  We worked just
as
> hard "improving" the area for our play and were no less devastated
> when the owner exercised his prerogative in using the land as he
saw
> fit.  Make no mistake about it, what we all do in the parks is
play,
> no matter how serious and adult we are about it.  And it is that
> "play" that enriches our lives.  The rocks and trees are our
witnesses
>  as ecstatic whoops reverberate after we "clean" a particularly
> challenging trail or conquer some obstacle.  What we seek is joy,
and
> when we lose the capacity and motivation to do that, our lives
begin
> the inevitable slide we so fear.  It is said that play is
children's
> work.  Most adults(myself included) lose that "play ethic" in the
> process of getting serious about our lives.  Those of us with a
> concern for the richness of our lives do our best to preserve that
> play ethic.
>      The point is, our relationship with the Water Co./Parks at the
> Lakes is essentially that of seriously playing kids on private
land.
> My wish is that the land owners take an obligation to preserve
> community play places as serioualy as they take their bottom line.
> Hank
>
>          --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com,
> skinnyoldman2003 <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> >      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for York
Water
> > Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses they
will
> > do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any
effort
> > into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks
where
> > biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail maintenance.
Spring
> > Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system
are
> > already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building issues.
I
> > suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less
likely to
> > be disturbed in the forseeable future.
> >
>

I agree that any regards to rider ability/experience needs to be
thrown out and trails should be marked according the trails features.

With that in mind it looks like IMBA method will work fine up at RR.

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> The IMBA link that Eric and Ray provided is the exact information
> that was given to the Parks Land manager to review. He seemed to
be
> in favor of IMBA's rating system because as Ray pointed out, it is
> based on the physical aspects of the trails and not any one
specific
> rider skill level or user group.
>
> No need to worry about additional signage. The degree of
difficulty
> indicators would be attached to the existing carsonite markers.
The
> Parks could not afford new signage even if they wanted to. Also,
the
> Parks Land Manager feels there are already too many signs
throughout
> all of the different Parks so I know he defintely wants to avoid
> adding any more signs.
>
> Nothing is carved in stone with the trail rating system right now.
> The Parks Land Manager would like to get together and hear
everyone's
> collective ideas and thoughts. If someone has seen other trail
rating
> systems other than IMBA's and RCST's that Kevin pointed out,
please
> let us know.
>
> Thanks for the feedback and keep it coming!
>
> Skip
>
>
>
>
>  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Michels"
> <rjmiche@> wrote:
> >
> > For reference, IMBA has information on trail rating (see link
> below).  They
> > recommend a single symbol, similar to downhill skiing.
> Additionally, trails
> > are rated relative to the park and/or region.  The rating is
based
> on the
> > physical aspects of the trails, not in relation to a rider
type.
> Assuming
> > the rating is relative to the Park, I think the rails at RR
would
> gain at
> > least beginner, intermediate and expert ratings.  For example,
the
> gravels
> > trails on the back side would be beginner.  Trail 5, though not
> challenging
> > overall would probabl gain an intermediate rating, there are
rocks
> and roots
> > to deal with, as well as few steep (but short) climbs.  Trail 7
> (radio
> > tower) has intermediate and expert areas, especially counter
> clockwise.
> >
> > My experience skiing has shown that it's difficult to really
know
> what a
> > trail really is until you try it, just it's perceived level of
> difficulty.
> >
> > Ray
> >
> >
>
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficult
y
> .html
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Paul
> Yeager
> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 2:37 PM
> > To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: YAMBA Re: Trail degree of Difficulty meeting
> >
> >
> > I would rather see a color coded map marking trails and no
> additional
> > signage hoggin up the woods. If difficulty is a concern, maybe
just
> some
> > small markers with red XXX showing upcoming danger. Most trails
in
> all the
> > parks have hard and easy sections. (In my opinion.) It would be
very
> > difficult to rate the trails based on individuals abilities. EX:
a
> Expert
> > level downhill racer may think a particular hilly trail was very
> difficult
> > based on his/her climbing abilities and vice versus for a XC
rider
> on a
> > super gnarly downhill. If each scenario was reversed the rider
may
> rate the
> > trail the complete opposite, even at the expert level.
> > Paul
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Eric
> Grove
> > Sent: Monday, February 20, 2006 2:14 PM
> > To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: YAMBA Re: Trail degree of Difficulty meeting
> >
> >
> > I've seen rating systems that split the rating in two, one for
how
> technical
> > the trail is (smooth, lots of rocks, etc.) and one for how
aerobic
> it is
> > (fairly level, straight up a mountain, etc.). This type of
rating
> system
> > seems a little less subjective than just trying to throw one
> arbitrary
> > rating at a whole trail.
> >
> > Maybe this would be a good guidline to follow:
> >
>
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficult
y
> .html
> >
> > - Eric
> >
> >
> > On 2/20/06, hank smeltzer <goodnightnurse1956@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Begs the question, would trails be rated as whole units, or
would
> the
> > > parks be willing to provide enough signage to mark specific
> sections
> > > of trail as appropriate?  Also, there should be a master trail
map
> > > billboard with color coded indicators.  Should be
interesting.
> The
> > > degree of difficulty estimate depends, to a large degree on
the
> skill
> > > of the rider(witness the new small connector extension on T5/6
> when
> > > newly opened and the website comments it generated).
Designations
> > > should probably be decided by experienced, upper level riders.
> > > Hank --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> > > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hey All,
> > > >
> > > > The Parks are looking to implement a Trail degree of
Difficulty
> rating
> > > > system in the near future. The ratings would be similiar to
> those used
> > > > on Ski slopes (Double black diamond, etc.) and Rocky Ridge
> would be the
> > > > first Park to have this implemented. The Parks would
definitely
> like
> > > > our feedback on this to help get this project going. Stay
tuned
> for
> > > > details on a meeting this Spring or Summer with the Parks
> Department to
> > > > discuss the rating of each individual trail at Rocky Ridge.
In
> the
> > > > meantime, going with just a general rating of Beginner,
> Intermediate
> > > > and Advanced, how would you rate the trails at Rocky Ridge?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Skip
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > SPONSORED LINKS
> > >   State college
> > pennsylvania<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=State+college+pennsylvania&
> >
>
w1=State+college+pennsylvania&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Penns
y
> lvania
> >
>
+state+flag&w4=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+
p
> ennsyl
> > vania+hotel&c=6&s=176&.sig=02hqhmsEwjyBPwTc6P6wxA> Pennsylvania
> > > state tax
> > form<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w1=Stat
> >
>
e+college+pennsylvania&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Pennsylvania
+
> state+
> >
>
flag&w4=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+pennsyl
v
> ania+h
> > otel&c=6&s=176&.sig=KsON_xEu3iuvfT8USEP2qA> Pennsylvania
> > > state
> > flag<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Pennsylvania+state+flag&w1=State+co
> >
>
llege+pennsylvania&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Pennsylvania+sta
t
> e+flag
> >
>
&w4=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+pennsylvani
a
> +hotel
> > &c=6&s=176&.sig=7w1ekh8OVaGdknczuYf6Eg>  Pennsylvania
> > > state
> > quarters<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w1=
> >
>
State+college+pennsylvania&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Pennsylv
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> nia+st
> >
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ate+flag&w4=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+pen
n
> sylvan
> > ia+hotel&c=6&s=176&.sig=pfNuN-9MafVr5DD8X0dDmQ>
> > >
> > Yamba<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=Yamba&w1=State+college+pennsylvani
> >
>
a&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Pennsylvania+state+flag&w4=Pennsy
l
> vania+
> >
>
state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+pennsylvania+hotel&c=6&s=176
&
> .sig=b
> > Jr57jgwWEz0GD324q8r0w> State
> > > college pennsylvania
> > hotel<http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
> t=ms&k=State+college+pennsylvania+hotel&w
> >
>
1=State+college+pennsylvania&w2=Pennsylvania+state+tax+form&w3=Pennsy
l
> vania+
> >
>
state+flag&w4=Pennsylvania+state+quarters&w5=Yamba&w6=State+college+p
e
> nnsylv
> > ania+hotel&c=6&s=176&.sig=VQPsbYU3S2HS6Aj7PHWpUQ>
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I was cruising 2 at the lakes, right after he "Vietnam" spur and
before the fast downhill, when I saw some hikers (couple with a young
girl, 3-ish) looking intently over the lake.  I slowed to go by, and
looked in the same direction they were.  Not 40 ft away perched on a
branch over the water was a huge brown bird with head and
tailfeathers of white.  It's mate was circling the water, and I
watched it make about 5 passes, talons splashing in attempt to catch
dinner.  I happened to have the point-and-shoot 35mm with me, so with
any luck I'll be able to post a picture.  I had seen a bald eagle at
Log Rd about 6 years ago, but haven't seen any at the lakes since.

The logging thing - Accepting that the Water Co. will probably
continue to be log whether we want it to or not (I don't like it, but
it is their land), and moving to the next stage of grief.  Is it
possible to have the Parks and Water Co. work out a trail management
plan BEFORE logging?  When they decide which section to harvest,
could they take a little effort to assess the impact on the trail
system, and designate a detour?  Any detour would have to be clearly
marked, with signs as well as on the map.  Sounds obvious, but I
still can't get around the new section of 3 from certain directions
even after reading several "word maps" posted here.  And I sure
couldn't figure out how to get through the logged section on 4
today.  I know there was some talk about closing it, but I didn't see
any signage or tape - in fact the carbonite sign was still there.
And what about all the trail users that don't have the resource of
bulletin boards like this?  How is an individual hiker, biker, or
equestrian going to know what to do when he gets to Water St.?

I'd be interested in checking this out too.  Post details as they
emerge.  Would we have to observe any kind of "setback" from the
development like any other builder in a regulated environment?
Hank

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Eric,
>
> Let's get together some weekend and take a look at where you have in
> mind for the singletrack. We can do a ride or a hike, whichever you
> prefer. A hike may be the better if we are going to be going through
> any underbrush to look at a possible new trail layout. Just drop me
> an email at Skipxcmtbr@...
>
> Thanks for the suggestion,
>
> Skip
>
>
>
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> <eric@> wrote:
> >
> > Skip,
> >
> > I know the trails you are referring to. The trail that the parks is
> cutting in still doesn't connect the old top trail. What are the
> chances of Yamba maybe putting in a nice single track trail from
> somewhere along the parks new trail over to the old trail, out past
> the half pipe trail? It could follow the new property border between
> the park and the development? Just a thought.
> >
> > - Eric
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: snsdurgin
> >   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:20 PM
> >   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
> >
> >
> >   Hey Eric,
> >
> >   There was a change in the Developer's plans and he is no longer
> going
> >   to be building that new section of connecting trail. However, the
> >   Parks are undertaking this responsibility and have already begun
> >   clearing this new connecting trail. As you proceed out Trail# 3,
> you
> >   will cross that lengthy wooden bridge. The new trail is
> immediately
> >   to the Left after crossing the bridge but it is currently just a
> >   rough cut and not nearly complete. This new Trail will eventually
> >   connect up on top behind the new houses. The new trail which
> >   parallels George Street that Ray mentioned was made a priority in
> >   order to connect over to Trail# 4 at Lake Williams. As you
> continue
> >   out Trail# 3 and go past where the steps use to be, ascend the
> climb
> >   to the top, the section of Trail that Ray is referring to would
> be to
> >   your Right. If you were to continue straight ahead, this is where
> the
> >   new connecting trail will tie in once it's complete. I can
> picture it
> >   in my head but is somewhat hard to explain so I hope I'm not
> >   confusing you. If you have any other questions or want to hook up
> for
> >   a ride to have a firsthand look at this just let me know.
> >
> >   See ya on the trails,
> >
> >   Skip
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> >   <eric@> wrote:
> >   >
> >   > Hey Skip,
> >   >
> >   > Do you know the status of trail 3? From what I recall, the
> >   developer was suppose to replace the section of trail that was
> lost.
> >   Last time I rode through there I didn't see any sign of a new
> trail,
> >   and it's getting harder to get through with all of the houses
> they
> >   are cramming in there.
> >   >
> >   > - Eric
> >   >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   >   From: snsdurgin
> >   >   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> >   >   Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM
> >   >   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   Hey George & All,
> >   >
> >   >   As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the
> Land
> >   >   owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the
> property.
> >   >   There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement
> for
> >   >   William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the
> use
> >   of
> >   >   Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres
> by
> >   York
> >   >   County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the
> 30th
> >   year
> >   >   of this 50 year agreement.
> >   >
> >   >   To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
> >   land,
> >   >   the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> >   >   individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
> >   majority of
> >   >   Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres
> off
> >   of
> >   >   George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it
> is
> >   >   unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the
> mind
> >   the
> >   >   property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> >   >   development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the
> one
> >   off
> >   >   of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement.
> With
> >   the
> >   >   Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
> >   foresee
> >   >   them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some
> reason
> >   the
> >   >   Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of
> land
> >   due
> >   >   to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1),
> raise
> >   enough
> >   >   money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an
> easement
> >   in
> >   >   place that would secure the trail in question and provide a
> right-
> >   of-
> >   >   way for trail users.
> >   >
> >   >   As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not
> sure
> >   of
> >   >   their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of
> the
> >   >   York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on
> this.
> >   >
> >   >   Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging
> is
> >   >   taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry
> management
> >   from
> >   >   time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of
> the
> >   >   trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White
> pines.
> >   >   These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
> >   become
> >   >   over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health
> of
> >   the
> >   >   forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they
> toppled
> >   >   across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
> >   systems
> >   >   are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are
> unhealthy
> >   >   with disease.
> >   >
> >   >   Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> >   >   devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours
> of
> >   >   volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will
> get
> >   >   through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> >   >   regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> >   >   adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right
> now.
> >   >
> >   >   Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is
> getting
> >   for
> >   >   the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
> >   Parks.
> >   >   Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
> >   gained
> >   >   from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will
> find
> >   its
> >   >   way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
> >   example
> >   >   of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
> >   which
> >   >   the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> >   >   pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the
> Lake
> >   >   Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
> >   entire
> >   >   bill for this project.
> >   >
> >   >   I hope this helps to shed some light on this current
> situation
> >   for
> >   >   everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with
> someone
> >   >   from the York Water Company, please email me at
> >   >   Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> >   >   someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
> >   topic.
> >   >
> >   >   Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can
> be
> >   of
> >   >   any further help.
> >   >
> >   >   Yours in Mountain Biking,
> >   >
> >   >   Skip
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> >   >   <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> >   >   >
> >   >   > It *is* a shame.
> >   >   >
> >   >   > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area?
> From
> >   >   looking
> >   >   > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new
> tree
> >   >   > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
> >   planning
> >   >   > to sell more land?
> >   >   >
> >   >   > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw
> attention to
> >   the
> >   >   > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility,
> is
> >   there
> >   >   > some kind of review process they have to go through before
> they
> >   rape
> >   >   > more land?
> >   >   >
> >   >   > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> >   >   >
> >   >   > Geo
> >   >   >
> >   >   > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> >   >   > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on
> monday
> >   >   > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
> >   because
> >   >   I
> >   >   > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream
> is
> >   >   not "in
> >   >   > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> >   >   opportunity
> >   >   > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful
> trail
> >   for
> >   >   > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> >   >   > >
> >   >   > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric
> Grove"
> >   >   > > <eric@> wrote:
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at
> the
> >   lakes
> >   >   know
> >   >   > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections
> of
> >   it
> >   >   and
> >   >   > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts
> put
> >   in
> >   >   along
> >   >   > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where
> it
> >   ever
> >   >   was
> >   >   > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but
> also
> >   >   > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large
> piles
> >   of
> >   >   > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
> >   entrance
> >   >   to
> >   >   > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is
> also
> >   >   blocked by
> >   >   > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the
> trail
> >   are
> >   >   also
> >   >   > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > - Eric
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   >   > > >
> >   >   > >
> >   >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania
> state
> >   tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
> >   >         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
> >   pennsylvania hotel
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >   ----------
> >   >   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >   >
> >   >     a..  Visit your group "yorkareamountainbikers" on the web.
> >   >
> >   >     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >   >      yorkareamountainbikers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >   >
> >   >     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms
> >   of Service.
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
> ----
> >   ----------
> >   >
> >   >
> >   >
> >   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >   >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania state
> tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
> >         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
> pennsylvania hotel
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
> >
> >     a..  Visit your group "yorkareamountainbikers" on the web.
> >
> >     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >      yorkareamountainbikers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
> of Service.
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

Hey Eric,

Let's get together some weekend and take a look at where you have in
mind for the singletrack. We can do a ride or a hike, whichever you
prefer. A hike may be the better if we are going to be going through
any underbrush to look at a possible new trail layout. Just drop me
an email at Skipxcmtbr@....

Thanks for the suggestion,

Skip




--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
<eric@...> wrote:
>
> Skip,
>
> I know the trails you are referring to. The trail that the parks is
cutting in still doesn't connect the old top trail. What are the
chances of Yamba maybe putting in a nice single track trail from
somewhere along the parks new trail over to the old trail, out past
the half pipe trail? It could follow the new property border between
the park and the development? Just a thought.
>
> - Eric
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: snsdurgin
>   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:20 PM
>   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
>
>
>   Hey Eric,
>
>   There was a change in the Developer's plans and he is no longer
going
>   to be building that new section of connecting trail. However, the
>   Parks are undertaking this responsibility and have already begun
>   clearing this new connecting trail. As you proceed out Trail# 3,
you
>   will cross that lengthy wooden bridge. The new trail is
immediately
>   to the Left after crossing the bridge but it is currently just a
>   rough cut and not nearly complete. This new Trail will eventually
>   connect up on top behind the new houses. The new trail which
>   parallels George Street that Ray mentioned was made a priority in
>   order to connect over to Trail# 4 at Lake Williams. As you
continue
>   out Trail# 3 and go past where the steps use to be, ascend the
climb
>   to the top, the section of Trail that Ray is referring to would
be to
>   your Right. If you were to continue straight ahead, this is where
the
>   new connecting trail will tie in once it's complete. I can
picture it
>   in my head but is somewhat hard to explain so I hope I'm not
>   confusing you. If you have any other questions or want to hook up
for
>   a ride to have a firsthand look at this just let me know.
>
>   See ya on the trails,
>
>   Skip
>
>
>
>
>
>   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
>   <eric@> wrote:
>   >
>   > Hey Skip,
>   >
>   > Do you know the status of trail 3? From what I recall, the
>   developer was suppose to replace the section of trail that was
lost.
>   Last time I rode through there I didn't see any sign of a new
trail,
>   and it's getting harder to get through with all of the houses
they
>   are cramming in there.
>   >
>   > - Eric
>   >   ----- Original Message -----
>   >   From: snsdurgin
>   >   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
>   >   Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM
>   >   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
>   >
>   >
>   >   Hey George & All,
>   >
>   >   As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the
Land
>   >   owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the
property.
>   >   There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement
for
>   >   William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the
use
>   of
>   >   Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres
by
>   York
>   >   County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the
30th
>   year
>   >   of this 50 year agreement.
>   >
>   >   To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
>   land,
>   >   the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
>   >   individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
>   majority of
>   >   Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres
off
>   of
>   >   George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it
is
>   >   unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the
mind
>   the
>   >   property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
>   >   development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the
one
>   off
>   >   of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement.
With
>   the
>   >   Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
>   foresee
>   >   them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some
reason
>   the
>   >   Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of
land
>   due
>   >   to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1),
raise
>   enough
>   >   money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an
easement
>   in
>   >   place that would secure the trail in question and provide a
right-
>   of-
>   >   way for trail users.
>   >
>   >   As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not
sure
>   of
>   >   their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of
the
>   >   York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on
this.
>   >
>   >   Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging
is
>   >   taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry
management
>   from
>   >   time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of
the
>   >   trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White
pines.
>   >   These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
>   become
>   >   over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health
of
>   the
>   >   forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they
toppled
>   >   across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
>   systems
>   >   are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are
unhealthy
>   >   with disease.
>   >
>   >   Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
>   >   devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours
of
>   >   volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will
get
>   >   through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
>   >   regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
>   >   adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right
now.
>   >
>   >   Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is
getting
>   for
>   >   the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
>   Parks.
>   >   Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
>   gained
>   >   from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will
find
>   its
>   >   way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
>   example
>   >   of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
>   which
>   >   the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
>   >   pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the
Lake
>   >   Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
>   entire
>   >   bill for this project.
>   >
>   >   I hope this helps to shed some light on this current
situation
>   for
>   >   everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with
someone
>   >   from the York Water Company, please email me at
>   >   Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
>   >   someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
>   topic.
>   >
>   >   Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can
be
>   of
>   >   any further help.
>   >
>   >   Yours in Mountain Biking,
>   >
>   >   Skip
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
>   >   <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
>   >   >
>   >   > It *is* a shame.
>   >   >
>   >   > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area?
From
>   >   looking
>   >   > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new
tree
>   >   > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
>   planning
>   >   > to sell more land?
>   >   >
>   >   > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw
attention to
>   the
>   >   > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility,
is
>   there
>   >   > some kind of review process they have to go through before
they
>   rape
>   >   > more land?
>   >   >
>   >   > To be honest, I'm pissed.
>   >   >
>   >   > Geo
>   >   >
>   >   > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
>   >   > <dstauffer@> wrote:
>   >   > >
>   >   > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on
monday
>   >   > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
>   because
>   >   I
>   >   > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream
is
>   >   not "in
>   >   > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
>   >   opportunity
>   >   > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful
trail
>   for
>   >   > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
>   >   > >
>   >   > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric
Grove"
>   >   > > <eric@> wrote:
>   >   > > >
>   >   > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at
the
>   lakes
>   >   know
>   >   > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections
of
>   it
>   >   and
>   >   > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts
put
>   in
>   >   along
>   >   > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where
it
>   ever
>   >   was
>   >   > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but
also
>   >   > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large
piles
>   of
>   >   > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
>   entrance
>   >   to
>   >   > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is
also
>   >   blocked by
>   >   > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the
trail
>   are
>   >   also
>   >   > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
>   >   > > >
>   >   > > > - Eric
>   >   > > >
>   >   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >   > > >
>   >   > >
>   >   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   >   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania
state
>   tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
>   >         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
>   pennsylvania hotel
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
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>   >
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>   >
>   >     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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>   >     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms
>   of Service.
>   >
>   >
>   > ----------------------------------------------------------------
----
>   ----------
>   >
>   >
>   >
>   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania state
tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
>         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
pennsylvania hotel
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     a..  Visit your group "yorkareamountainbikers" on the web.
>
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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of Service.
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Skip,

I know the trails you are referring to. The trail that the parks is cutting in
still doesn't connect the old top trail. What are the chances of Yamba maybe
putting in a nice single track trail from somewhere along the parks new trail
over to the old trail, out past the half pipe trail? It could follow the new
property border between the park and the development? Just a thought.

- Eric
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: snsdurgin
   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2006 9:20 PM
   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape


   Hey Eric,

   There was a change in the Developer's plans and he is no longer going
   to be building that new section of connecting trail. However, the
   Parks are undertaking this responsibility and have already begun
   clearing this new connecting trail. As you proceed out Trail# 3, you
   will cross that lengthy wooden bridge. The new trail is immediately
   to the Left after crossing the bridge but it is currently just a
   rough cut and not nearly complete. This new Trail will eventually
   connect up on top behind the new houses. The new trail which
   parallels George Street that Ray mentioned was made a priority in
   order to connect over to Trail# 4 at Lake Williams. As you continue
   out Trail# 3 and go past where the steps use to be, ascend the climb
   to the top, the section of Trail that Ray is referring to would be to
   your Right. If you were to continue straight ahead, this is where the
   new connecting trail will tie in once it's complete. I can picture it
   in my head but is somewhat hard to explain so I hope I'm not
   confusing you. If you have any other questions or want to hook up for
   a ride to have a firsthand look at this just let me know.

   See ya on the trails,

   Skip





   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
   <eric@...> wrote:
   >
   > Hey Skip,
   >
   > Do you know the status of trail 3? From what I recall, the
   developer was suppose to replace the section of trail that was lost.
   Last time I rode through there I didn't see any sign of a new trail,
   and it's getting harder to get through with all of the houses they
   are cramming in there.
   >
   > - Eric
   >   ----- Original Message -----
   >   From: snsdurgin
   >   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
   >   Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM
   >   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
   >
   >
   >   Hey George & All,
   >
   >   As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
   >   owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
   >   There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
   >   William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
   of
   >   Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
   York
   >   County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
   year
   >   of this 50 year agreement.
   >
   >   To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
   land,
   >   the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
   >   individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
   majority of
   >   Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
   of
   >   George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
   >   unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
   the
   >   property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
   >   development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
   off
   >   of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
   the
   >   Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
   foresee
   >   them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
   the
   >   Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
   due
   >   to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
   enough
   >   money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
   in
   >   place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
   of-
   >   way for trail users.
   >
   >   As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
   of
   >   their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
   >   York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
   >
   >   Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
   >   taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
   from
   >   time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
   >   trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
   >   These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
   become
   >   over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
   the
   >   forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
   >   across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
   systems
   >   are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
   >   with disease.
   >
   >   Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
   >   devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
   >   volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
   >   through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
   >   regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
   >   adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
   >
   >   Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
   for
   >   the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
   Parks.
   >   Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
   gained
   >   from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
   its
   >   way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
   example
   >   of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
   which
   >   the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
   >   pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
   >   Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
   entire
   >   bill for this project.
   >
   >   I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
   for
   >   everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
   >   from the York Water Company, please email me at
   >   Skipxcmtbr@... and I will do my best to put you in touch with
   >   someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
   topic.
   >
   >   Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
   of
   >   any further help.
   >
   >   Yours in Mountain Biking,
   >
   >   Skip
   >
   >
   >
   >   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
   >   <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
   >   >
   >   > It *is* a shame.
   >   >
   >   > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
   >   looking
   >   > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
   >   > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
   planning
   >   > to sell more land?
   >   >
   >   > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
   the
   >   > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
   there
   >   > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
   rape
   >   > more land?
   >   >
   >   > To be honest, I'm pissed.
   >   >
   >   > Geo
   >   >
   >   > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
   >   > <dstauffer@> wrote:
   >   > >
   >   > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
   >   > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
   because
   >   I
   >   > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
   >   not "in
   >   > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
   >   opportunity
   >   > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
   for
   >   > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
   >   > >
   >   > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
   >   > > <eric@> wrote:
   >   > > >
   >   > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
   lakes
   >   know
   >   > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
   it
   >   and
   >   > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
   in
   >   along
   >   > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
   ever
   >   was
   >   > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
   >   > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
   of
   >   > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
   entrance
   >   to
   >   > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
   >   blocked by
   >   > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
   are
   >   also
   >   > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
   >   > > >
   >   > > > - Eric
   >   > > >
   >   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >   > > >
   >   > >
   >   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania state
   tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
   >         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
   pennsylvania hotel
   >
   >
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   ----------
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   >
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   >
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   >
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   >
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   >
   >
   >
   > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   >






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------------------------------------------------------------------------------



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sean, I don't remember pointin' *ANY* fingers at anyone in YAMBA, you
guys do an an AWESOME, AWESOME job.

If I want to point a finger at the York Water Company for placing
profit over natural beauty, that's *my* business.

If there is something you'd like me to do to help you guys, just let
me know. My time is very limited due to my crazy work schedule and
family committments but I'll do my best:-)

Geo

-- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin <no_reply@...>
wrote:
>
> Hey George,
>
> As I previously noted, I will find out whether the Water Company's
> intentions are to re-seed or let natural regeneration occur.
> Hopefully they will elect to re-seed so that area doesn't look so
> desolate and barren. In regards to your reference to the East side of
> Water Street, as was indicated in message# 11581, the Water Company
> is allowing natural regeneration to occur in that area.
>
> Thank you for sharing your question regarding me letting club members
> know what is going on in Kain Park. I am *fairly* certain the logging
> at the Lakes was an earlier topic of discussion either on the YAMBA
> website or perhaps I discussed this at a club meeting with someone?
> With having to respond to postings on the YAMBA website, emails &
> phone calls from club members and questions out on the trails during
> Trail work & club rides, sometimes it becomes difficult to keep track
> of who I have shared information with on the happenings in the Parks.
>
> As one of the original Park Ambassadors George, perhaps you too could
> help with keeping our members informed of happenings in the Parks? I
> am a *little* surprised that you were surprised about the logging
> especially since Mike Fobes posted about it in message# 121 on the
> Park Ambassador website. Perhaps you could have inquired to Mike back
> then about what other areas besides Trail# 7 were being logged and
> why? I know Mike would have been more than happy to answer your
> questions.
>
> In closing, its very easy to point the finger at someone but
> sometimes you need to turn that finger around and see where it's
> pointing and then ask yourself what you can do to help.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Skip
>
>
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey Skip, are they in fact reseeding the area with new trees?
> >
> > I haven't seen any evidence that Gladfelter reseeded the area they
> > logged to the East of Water St.last year.
> >
> > I'm not a forest ranger so I might be wrong:-)
> >
> > One question......Since you are the President of the Parks Advisory
> > Board and the Parks oversee the management of Kain Park, perhaps you
> > could let the club know whats going in Kain Park *before* it happens
> > so we all aren't surprised when trails disappear.....
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Geo
> >
> >  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> > <no_reply@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hey George & All,
> > >
> > > As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
> > > owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
> > > There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
> > > William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
> of
> > > Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
> York
> > > County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
> year
> > > of this 50 year agreement.
> > >
> > > To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
> land,
> > > the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> > > individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
> majority of
> > > Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
> of
> > > George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
> > > unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
> the
> > > property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> > > development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
> off
> > > of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
> the
> > > Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
> foresee
> > > them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
> the
> > > Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
> due
> > > to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
> enough
> > > money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
> in
> > > place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
> of-
> > > way for trail users.
> > >
> > > As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
> of
> > > their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
> > > York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
> > >
> > > Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
> > > taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
> from
> > > time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
> > > trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
> > > These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
> become
> > > over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
> the
> > > forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
> > > across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
> systems
> > > are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
> > > with disease.
> > >
> > > Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> > > devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
> > > volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
> > > through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> > > regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> > > adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
> > >
> > > Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
> for
> > > the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
> Parks.
> > > Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
> gained
> > > from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
> its
> > > way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
> example
> > > of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
> which
> > > the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> > > pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
> > > Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
> entire
> > > bill for this project.
> > >
> > > I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
> for
> > > everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
> > > from the York Water Company, please email me at
> > > Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> > > someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
> topic.
> > >
> > > Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
> of
> > > any further help.
> > >
> > > Yours in Mountain Biking,
> > >
> > > Skip
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> > > <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > It *is* a shame.
> > > >
> > > > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
> > > looking
> > > > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
> > > > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
> planning
> > > > to sell more land?
> > > >
> > > > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
> the
> > > > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
> there
> > > > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
> rape
> > > > more land?
> > > >
> > > > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> > > >
> > > > Geo
> > > >
> > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> > > > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
> > > > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
> because
> > > I
> > > > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
> > > not "in
> > > > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> > > opportunity
> > > > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
> for
> > > > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> > > > > <eric@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
> lakes
> > > know
> > > > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
> it
> > > and
> > > > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
> in
> > > along
> > > > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
> ever
> > > was
> > > > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
> > > > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
> of
> > > > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
> entrance
> > > to
> > > > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
> > > blocked by
> > > > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
> are
> > > also
> > > > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Eric
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hey George,

As I previously noted, I will find out whether the Water Company's
intentions are to re-seed or let natural regeneration occur.
Hopefully they will elect to re-seed so that area doesn't look so
desolate and barren. In regards to your reference to the East side of
Water Street, as was indicated in message# 11581, the Water Company
is allowing natural regeneration to occur in that area.

Thank you for sharing your question regarding me letting club members
know what is going on in Kain Park. I am *fairly* certain the logging
at the Lakes was an earlier topic of discussion either on the YAMBA
website or perhaps I discussed this at a club meeting with someone?
With having to respond to postings on the YAMBA website, emails &
phone calls from club members and questions out on the trails during
Trail work & club rides, sometimes it becomes difficult to keep track
of who I have shared information with on the happenings in the Parks.

As one of the original Park Ambassadors George, perhaps you too could
help with keeping our members informed of happenings in the Parks? I
am a *little* surprised that you were surprised about the logging
especially since Mike Fobes posted about it in message# 121 on the
Park Ambassador website. Perhaps you could have inquired to Mike back
then about what other areas besides Trail# 7 were being logged and
why? I know Mike would have been more than happy to answer your
questions.

In closing, its very easy to point the finger at someone but
sometimes you need to turn that finger around and see where it's
pointing and then ask yourself what you can do to help.

Just a thought.

Skip



--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
<gmcnallyii@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Skip, are they in fact reseeding the area with new trees?
>
> I haven't seen any evidence that Gladfelter reseeded the area they
> logged to the East of Water St.last year.
>
> I'm not a forest ranger so I might be wrong:-)
>
> One question......Since you are the President of the Parks Advisory
> Board and the Parks oversee the management of Kain Park, perhaps you
> could let the club know whats going in Kain Park *before* it happens
> so we all aren't surprised when trails disappear.....
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Geo
>
>  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
> <no_reply@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey George & All,
> >
> > As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
> > owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
> > There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
> > William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
of
> > Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
York
> > County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
year
> > of this 50 year agreement.
> >
> > To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
land,
> > the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> > individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
majority of
> > Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
of
> > George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
> > unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
the
> > property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> > development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
off
> > of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
the
> > Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
foresee
> > them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
the
> > Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
due
> > to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
enough
> > money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
in
> > place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
of-
> > way for trail users.
> >
> > As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
of
> > their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
> > York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
> >
> > Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
> > taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
from
> > time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
> > trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
> > These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
become
> > over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
the
> > forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
> > across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
systems
> > are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
> > with disease.
> >
> > Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> > devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
> > volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
> > through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> > regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> > adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
> >
> > Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
for
> > the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
Parks.
> > Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
gained
> > from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
its
> > way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
example
> > of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
which
> > the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> > pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
> > Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
entire
> > bill for this project.
> >
> > I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
for
> > everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
> > from the York Water Company, please email me at
> > Skipxcmtbr@ and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> > someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
topic.
> >
> > Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
of
> > any further help.
> >
> > Yours in Mountain Biking,
> >
> > Skip
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> > <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> > >
> > > It *is* a shame.
> > >
> > > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
> > looking
> > > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
> > > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
planning
> > > to sell more land?
> > >
> > > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
the
> > > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
there
> > > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
rape
> > > more land?
> > >
> > > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> > >
> > > Geo
> > >
> > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> > > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
> > > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
because
> > I
> > > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
> > not "in
> > > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> > opportunity
> > > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
for
> > > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> > > >
> > > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> > > > <eric@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
lakes
> > know
> > > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
it
> > and
> > > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
in
> > along
> > > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
ever
> > was
> > > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
> > > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
of
> > > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
entrance
> > to
> > > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
> > blocked by
> > > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
are
> > also
> > > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> > > > >
> > > > > - Eric
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Hey Eric,

There was a change in the Developer's plans and he is no longer going
to be building that new section of connecting trail. However, the
Parks are undertaking this responsibility and have already begun
clearing this new connecting trail. As you proceed out Trail# 3, you
will cross that lengthy wooden bridge. The new trail is immediately
to the Left after crossing the bridge but it is currently just a
rough cut and not nearly complete. This new Trail will eventually
connect up on top behind the new houses. The new trail which
parallels George Street that Ray mentioned was made a priority in
order to connect over to Trail# 4 at Lake Williams. As you continue
out Trail# 3 and go past where the steps use to be, ascend the climb
to the top, the section of Trail that Ray is referring to would be to
your Right. If you were to continue straight ahead, this is where the
new connecting trail will tie in once it's complete. I can picture it
in my head but is somewhat hard to explain so I hope I'm not
confusing you. If you have any other questions or want to hook up for
a ride to have a firsthand look at this just let me know.

See ya on the trails,

Skip





  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
<eric@...> wrote:
>
> Hey Skip,
>
> Do you know the status of trail 3? From what I recall, the
developer was suppose to replace the section of trail that was lost.
Last time I rode through there I didn't see any sign of a new trail,
and it's getting harder to get through with all of the houses they
are cramming in there.
>
> - Eric
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: snsdurgin
>   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM
>   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape
>
>
>   Hey George & All,
>
>   As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
>   owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
>   There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
>   William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use
of
>   Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by
York
>   County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th
year
>   of this 50 year agreement.
>
>   To answer your question about the Water Company selling more
land,
>   the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
>   individuals from the York Water Company's management, the
majority of
>   Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off
of
>   George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
>   unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind
the
>   property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
>   development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one
off
>   of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With
the
>   Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't
foresee
>   them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason
the
>   Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land
due
>   to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise
enough
>   money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement
in
>   place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-
of-
>   way for trail users.
>
>   As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure
of
>   their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
>   York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
>
>   Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
>   taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management
from
>   time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
>   trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
>   These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have
become
>   over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of
the
>   forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
>   across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root
systems
>   are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
>   with disease.
>
>   Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
>   devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
>   volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
>   through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
>   regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
>   adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
>
>   Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting
for
>   the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the
Parks.
>   Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money
gained
>   from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find
its
>   way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An
example
>   of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch
which
>   the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
>   pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
>   Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the
entire
>   bill for this project.
>
>   I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation
for
>   everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
>   from the York Water Company, please email me at
>   Skipxcmtbr@... and I will do my best to put you in touch with
>   someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this
topic.
>
>   Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be
of
>   any further help.
>
>   Yours in Mountain Biking,
>
>   Skip
>
>
>
>   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
>   <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
>   >
>   > It *is* a shame.
>   >
>   > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
>   looking
>   > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
>   > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is
planning
>   > to sell more land?
>   >
>   > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to
the
>   > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is
there
>   > some kind of review process they have to go through before they
rape
>   > more land?
>   >
>   > To be honest, I'm pissed.
>   >
>   > Geo
>   >
>   > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
>   > <dstauffer@> wrote:
>   > >
>   > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
>   > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around
because
>   I
>   > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
>   not "in
>   > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
>   opportunity
>   > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail
for
>   > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
>   > >
>   > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
>   > > <eric@> wrote:
>   > > >
>   > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the
lakes
>   know
>   > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of
it
>   and
>   > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put
in
>   along
>   > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it
ever
>   was
>   > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
>   > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles
of
>   > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The
entrance
>   to
>   > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
>   blocked by
>   > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail
are
>   also
>   > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
>   > > >
>   > > > - Eric
>   > > >
>   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>   > > >
>   > >
>   >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>   SPONSORED LINKS State college pennsylvania  Pennsylvania state
tax form  Pennsylvania state flag
>         Pennsylvania state quarters  Yamba  State college
pennsylvania hotel
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     a..  Visit your group "yorkareamountainbikers" on the web.
>
>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>      yorkareamountainbikers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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> --------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Anyone up for a ride tomorrow morning . RR at 9:00am
I plan on getting a ride in while the trails are still frozen from
overnight.
Anyhow, all are welcome to join.
Paul Y

hey kids just thought i would throw my 1 cent in. first i havent been
to trail work because of bitter custody battles. so i guess i dont
have much input. i ride rocky ridge and loch raven when i can ride. i
have not been to spring valley. so the point is as a group we should
try to develop spring valley into a great riding place. i used to
belong the de.trail spinners back when there were only seven of us. we
used to ride at the c and d canal area. we used to have a great race
there also. then one year the de.enduro riders had their big race
there and tore the trails to hell. it was alot of upkeep anyway before
that and then the trails were basically gone. so our club pres. bill
bowen discovered fair hill md. we has a club then focused our
attention to that area. fair hill is now an awesome place to ride. so
it seems that the lakes is in a similar unstable situation and maybe
we can create spring valley into a popular ride spot. sorry for being
a windbag and thanks for letting me rant. remember, just ride. bill k

"I
suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less likely to
be disturbed in the forseeable future."(from Dave's post re:  Water
Co./Kain Park)

      This begs the question, What's the possibility of logging in
Spring Valley?  As originally conceived, it was to be another Lake
Redman/Lake Williams.  I forget the details.  Was it deeded to the
parks, or is it still owned by the Water Co.?  T'would be a rude shock
to find tracts of it being buzz cut with little or no notice as at the
Lakes.
      This whole situation takes me back to childhood when many of my
favorite play areas were private property where the owner either
benignly tolerated or was unaware of our presence.  We worked just as
hard "improving" the area for our play and were no less devastated
when the owner exercised his prerogative in using the land as he saw
fit.  Make no mistake about it, what we all do in the parks is play,
no matter how serious and adult we are about it.  And it is that
"play" that enriches our lives.  The rocks and trees are our witnesses
  as ecstatic whoops reverberate after we "clean" a particularly
challenging trail or conquer some obstacle.  What we seek is joy, and
when we lose the capacity and motivation to do that, our lives begin
the inevitable slide we so fear.  It is said that play is children's
work.  Most adults(myself included) lose that "play ethic" in the
process of getting serious about our lives.  Those of us with a
concern for the richness of our lives do our best to preserve that
play ethic.
      The point is, our relationship with the Water Co./Parks at the
Lakes is essentially that of seriously playing kids on private land.
My wish is that the land owners take an obligation to preserve
community play places as serioualy as they take their bottom line.
Hank

          --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com,
skinnyoldman2003 <no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for York Water
> Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses they will
> do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any effort
> into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks where
> biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail maintenance. Spring
> Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system are
> already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building issues. I
> suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less likely to
> be disturbed in the forseeable future.
>

I will probably head up there this afternoon and ride for a few hours.
  I have plans this morning.

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Ray Michels"
<rjmiche@...> wrote:
>
> What is the pace of the ride?  I doubt I'll make it, but in case I'm up
> early and have a silly urge to drag my body around the trails :)
>
> Ray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of wrmahler
> Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:58 PM
> To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: YAMBA Sat morning ride 0830 Rocky Ridge. Check it out, be there
> so I'm not alone...
>
>
> Hey, this is a late post but I hope some will come out and ride. Josh
> and I are riding RR at 0830. 3 is more fun than 2. That and come see
> one of 7 Rocky Moutain Slayers in North America school me on the trails.
>
> w.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Hey Skinny Old Guy, I'd have to say I agree with where you are coming
from.

YAMBA does an awesome job on trailwork days (I wish I could make it to
more of them) and it would be a shame to see everyone's hard work get
bulldozed in the future.

Geo

  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, skinnyoldman2003
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for York Water
> Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses they will
> do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any effort
> into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks where
> biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail maintenance. Spring
> Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system are
> already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building issues. I
> suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less likely to
> be disturbed in the forseeable future.
>

Hey Skip, are they in fact reseeding the area with new trees?

I haven't seen any evidence that Gladfelter reseeded the area they
logged to the East of Water St.last year.

I'm not a forest ranger so I might be wrong:-)

One question......Since you are the President of the Parks Advisory
Board and the Parks oversee the management of Kain Park, perhaps you
could let the club know whats going in Kain Park *before* it happens
so we all aren't surprised when trails disappear.....

Just a thought.

Geo

  --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, snsdurgin
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
> Hey George & All,
>
> As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
> owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
> There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
> William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use of
> Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by York
> County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th year
> of this 50 year agreement.
>
> To answer your question about the Water Company selling more land,
> the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
> individuals from the York Water Company's management, the majority of
> Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off of
> George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
> unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind the
> property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
> development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one off
> of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With the
> Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't foresee
> them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason the
> Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land due
> to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise enough
> money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement in
> place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-of-
> way for trail users.
>
> As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure of
> their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
> York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.
>
> Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
> taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management from
> time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
> trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
> These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have become
> over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of the
> forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
> across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root systems
> are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
> with disease.
>
> Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
> devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
> volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
> through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
> regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
> adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.
>
> Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting for
> the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the Parks.
> Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money gained
> from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find its
> way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An example
> of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch which
> the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
> pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
> Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the entire
> bill for this project.
>
> I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation for
> everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
> from the York Water Company, please email me at
> Skipxcmtbr@... and I will do my best to put you in touch with
> someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this topic.
>
> Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be of
> any further help.
>
> Yours in Mountain Biking,
>
> Skip
>
>
>
> --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
> <gmcnallyii@> wrote:
> >
> > It *is* a shame.
> >
> > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
> looking
> > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
> > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is planning
> > to sell more land?
> >
> > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to the
> > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is there
> > some kind of review process they have to go through before they rape
> > more land?
> >
> > To be honest, I'm pissed.
> >
> > Geo
> >
> > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
> > <dstauffer@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
> > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around because
> I
> > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
> not "in
> > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
> opportunity
> > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail for
> > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
> > >
> > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
> > > <eric@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the lakes
> know
> > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of it
> and
> > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put in
> along
> > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it ever
> was
> > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
> > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles of
> > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The entrance
> to
> > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
> blocked by
> > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail are
> also
> > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
> > > >
> > > > - Eric
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

The "skinny" is, the "old man's" got a point.  But gawd, I love the
lakes:^(  I do very much agree with Dave's assertion of Spring Valley
having much untapped potential.  If a few less "vertical" trails could
be created, it would have something for everyone.
Hank

--- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, skinnyoldman2003
<no_reply@...> wrote:
>
>      As Hank said, the bottom line is the bottom line for York Water
> Company. Since they own the land that Kain County Park uses they will
> do as they please. Therefore, I have no motivation to put any effort
> into trail maintenance and building there. We have two parks where
> biking is encouraged that could use a lot of trail maintenance. Spring
> Valley is a largely untapped resource. We and the park system are
> already overwhelmed with maintenance and trail building issues. I
> suggest we concentrate our efforts on park land that is less likely to
> be disturbed in the forseeable future.
>

Hi Eric

I don't believe that trail 3 was formally continued through the housing
development to pick up the high side of trail 3, making a big loop back..

I think the only section that was completed runs on the george street side
of the new houses (sort of paralleling George St) and drops in at the gate
at George St, where the old trail 3 was.  From there you can cross to the
gate on the other side and drop into trail 4.

Ray

-----Original Message-----
From: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Eric Grove
Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 9:03 PM
To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape


Hey Skip,

Do you know the status of trail 3? From what I recall, the developer was
suppose to replace the section of trail that was lost. Last time I rode
through there I didn't see any sign of a new trail, and it's getting harder
to get through with all of the houses they are cramming in there.

- Eric
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: snsdurgin
   To: yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Friday, February 24, 2006 8:47 PM
   Subject: YAMBA Re: Trail 4 at lakes in bad shape


   Hey George & All,

   As Hank and Dave pointed out, the York Water Company is the Land
   owner with the Parks Dept. managing and overseeing the property.
   There is a 50 year Joint Use and Park management agreement for
   William H. Kain County Park. This agreement provides for the use of
   Lake Williams and Lake Redman and the surrounding 1050 acres by York
   County for recreational purposes. Currently, we are in the 30th year
   of this 50 year agreement.

   To answer your question about the Water Company selling more land,
   the answer is most likely, No. Having spoken with a couple of
   individuals from the York Water Company's management, the majority of
   Water Company officials now realize selling off the 40+ acres off of
   George Street was a major mistake. With this being said, it is
   unlikely any further land will be sold. Also, keep in the mind the
   property within the 50 year agreement cannot be touched for
   development. However, there are certain parcels, such as the one off
   of George Street, that are outside of the 50 year agreement. With the
   Water Company now regretting having sold that parcel, I don't foresee
   them selling off any of the remaining parcels. If for some reason the
   Water Company would be forced to sell off another parcel of land due
   to financial difficulty, we would have two options. (1), raise enough
   money to purchase the property ourselves or (2) get an easement in
   place that would secure the trail in question and provide a right-of-
   way for trail users.

   As far as re-seeding the area along Water Street, I am not sure of
   their plans but I will find out an answer from Duane Close of the
   York Water Company. I should have an answer by next week on this.

   Also, I want to be sure everyone understands why the logging is
   taking place. Land Managers have to perform forestry management from
   time to time which is a necessary evil. If you notice, all of the
   trees that have been felled are Red Pines and a few White pines.
   These Red Pines were planted in 1912! Now, these trees have become
   over-mature and have become detrimental to the overall health of the
   forest. Many of them we have cut out ourselves when they toppled
   across a trail due to heavy winds. This is because their root systems
   are weak from old age. Many others of the Red Pines are unhealthy
   with disease.

   Trust me everyone when I say I am not thrilled by the obvious
   devastation from the logging. I have put in many, many hours of
   volunteer trail work just as many of you have also. We will get
   through this rough time at the Lakes and one day when natural
   regeneration has occured or the new seedlings have grown into
   adulthood, we will all forget about what looks so grim right now.

   Lastly, in regards to the money the York Water Company is getting for
   the harvested trees. The money will make its way back to the Parks.
   Will the Water Company hand the Parks a check for the money gained
   from the logging? The answer is No. However, the money will find its
   way back to the Parks in the form of capital improvements. An example
   of this is the new Playground at the Lake Redman Boat Launch which
   the Water Company paid for. Another example is the additional
   pavillion that is in the process of being built also at the Lake
   Redman boat launch. Again, the Water Company is footing the entire
   bill for this project.

   I hope this helps to shed some light on this current situation for
   everyone. If you would like to discuss your concerns with someone
   from the York Water Company, please email me at
   Skipxcmtbr@... and I will do my best to put you in touch with
   someone there that can further explain and elaborate on this topic.

   Thanks for listening everyone and please let me know if I can be of
   any further help.

   Yours in Mountain Biking,

   Skip



   --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "George"
   <gmcnallyii@...> wrote:
   >
   > It *is* a shame.
   >
   > Does anyone know if Gladfelter plans to reseed the area? From
   looking
   > at the last area they destroyed, I haven't noticed any new tree
   > seedlings in that area either. Perhaps the Water Company is planning
   > to sell more land?
   >
   > Is there anything YAMBA could do as a club to draw attention to the
   > local media as to what is happening? As a public utility, is there
   > some kind of review process they have to go through before they rape
   > more land?
   >
   > To be honest, I'm pissed.
   >
   > Geo
   >
   > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "davetsta"
   > <dstauffer@> wrote:
   > >
   > > I don't ride down at the lakes much but I went out on monday
   > > (presidents day).  I usually just ride around and around because
   I
   > > always forget where the trails go.  Trail 4 by the stream is
   not "in
   > > bad shape".  It just doesn't exist at all.  Not even an
   opportunity
   > > for a "hike a bike".  Its a shame, that was a beautiful trail for
   > > hiking.  I hope they are getting their money's worth.
   > >
   > > --- In yorkareamountainbikers@yahoogroups.com, "Eric Grove"
   > > <eric@> wrote:
   > > >
   > > > Just wanted to let anyone considering riding down at the lakes
   know
   > > that trail 4 is in bad shape. They logged large sections of it
   and
   > > wiped out a lot of trails. The trail that the boy scouts put in
   along
   > > the creek is pretty much gone, you can't even tell where it ever
   was
   > > in some places, as they not only cut down the trees but also
   > > bulldozed away the whole hillside. There are many large piles of
   > > trees that make passing through this area difficult. The entrance
   to
   > > the new extension section of trail 4 that we built is also
   blocked by
   > > piles of trees. The first couple hundred yards of the trail are
   also
   > > partially blocked with fallen trees and bulldozer tracks.
   > > >
   > > > - Eric
   > > >
   > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
   > > >
   > >
   >







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