You might find that instead of a two-seater, it's not much more
expensive - and a lot more fun - to get two single-seaters.  I wish
I'd bought two landyachts early on when my boys were still living at
home.

Besides the water spinning off the tires in the plane of the tire,
there's also spray projected to the side that blows back.  So you're
probably going to get wet, no matter what the design is.

Cheers,

Tom Speer

On Jan 15, 2009, at 2:06 PM, philwlr wrote:

> Hi, I am researching a land sailing boat for the beach.  Something
> inexpensive, but top quality.  I would like it to be a two seater. A
> concern is I will be sailing on mostly hard wet sand.  I do not want
> to
> get wet from the water spinning off the tires.  Can anybody direct me
> to a boat design that might fit my needs?

Hi, I am researching a land sailing boat for the beach.  Something
inexpensive, but top quality.  I would like it to be a two seater. A
concern is I will be sailing on mostly hard wet sand.  I do not want to
get wet from the water spinning off the tires.  Can anybody direct me
to a boat design that might fit my needs?

Hi Ken,

   Thanks for the input. That makes a lot of sense. Most of my sailing
with the wing thus far has been short runs, rough ice and with
differing setups. Last Sunday was the first time I could hook her up,
sit back and watch everything work. The subtle bounce  got me
wondering. Now that I am more aware of it I will tinker with the
rigging and see how it affects it. I might even be able to pull on
the side stays while sailing to see if that affects the bounce.
   We are currently out of business due to snow with more storms
coming for the weeks end so I don't expect to be sailing anytime
soon. I have the wing dismantled on the work bench for a new paint
job. I even built myself a new windex but I'm not going to throw away
the coat hanger windex just yet. Thanks again.

                                        Kevin






--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "wind2nice" <wind2nice@...> wrote:
>
> Well, with not-too-much information, here is my 2 cents:
>
> The natural frequency of the boat is close to the natural frequency
of
> the wing.  If you were an airplane, you might have a flutter problem
> from similar causes.  Burt Rutan's Voyager round-the-world aircraft
> had a bounce problem at high fuel loads that scared the b'jesus out
of
> Dick and Jeana, the crew. Structural harmony.  Flexing changed aero
> loading that let the flex relax, then the relaxed condition started
> another cycle.
>
> Our springs are the springboard, the plank and the hull stiffness.
> When they flex down, slack appears in the rig, and the wing moves
> sideways, instantaneously reducing the angle of attack and relaxing
> the aero loads on the wing... unloading the springy hull and moving
> the mast to weather, increasing the aero load on the wing, starting
> another cycle.
>
> The first thing I'd try is making the rigging a little looser.  This
> leans the mast to leeward, imparting a bit more down force on the
> hull.  This should help keep the springs compressed under teh aero
> load on the wing: plank and spring board and hull.  And it adds
> stability, increasing the power you can pull out of the wing.  The
> reduced pre-load on the hull should also lower the initial natural
> frequency of the system.  That may or may not work.
>
> Second try would be increasing the pre-load on the rigging.  This
> increased pre-load will probably stiffen (speed up) the hull
response
> and reduce the rigging movement (lower amplitude, less driving
force)
> when the plank flexes.  But maybe a bit less power/speed potential.
>
> Either strategy should move both the mast response amplitudes and
> frequencies, as well as the hull response frequencies. Once they
are a
> little more separated, the bouncing should stop.  Stiffening or
> softening the plank and springboard may also change things, but is
> lots more work.
>
> On my DN, the primary tuning adjustment is the forestay tension.
Long
> discussion as to why, and solving different problems, but the
> adjustment is made with a turnbuckle at the front of the forestay.
In
> certain conditions I pre-bend the plank with the forestay tension,
and
> never get a slack rig until the sail loads are way up.  That pre-
load
> may help this problem.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ken
>

Slop BAD.

Always.  Especially in steering or in chocks.

Ken

Well, with not-too-much information, here is my 2 cents:

The natural frequency of the boat is close to the natural frequency of
the wing.  If you were an airplane, you might have a flutter problem
from similar causes.  Burt Rutan's Voyager round-the-world aircraft
had a bounce problem at high fuel loads that scared the b'jesus out of
Dick and Jeana, the crew. Structural harmony.  Flexing changed aero
loading that let the flex relax, then the relaxed condition started
another cycle.

Our springs are the springboard, the plank and the hull stiffness.
When they flex down, slack appears in the rig, and the wing moves
sideways, instantaneously reducing the angle of attack and relaxing
the aero loads on the wing... unloading the springy hull and moving
the mast to weather, increasing the aero load on the wing, starting
another cycle.

The first thing I'd try is making the rigging a little looser.  This
leans the mast to leeward, imparting a bit more down force on the
hull.  This should help keep the springs compressed under teh aero
load on the wing: plank and spring board and hull.  And it adds
stability, increasing the power you can pull out of the wing.  The
reduced pre-load on the hull should also lower the initial natural
frequency of the system.  That may or may not work.

Second try would be increasing the pre-load on the rigging.  This
increased pre-load will probably stiffen (speed up) the hull response
and reduce the rigging movement (lower amplitude, less driving force)
when the plank flexes.  But maybe a bit less power/speed potential.

Either strategy should move both the mast response amplitudes and
frequencies, as well as the hull response frequencies. Once they are a
little more separated, the bouncing should stop.  Stiffening or
softening the plank and springboard may also change things, but is
lots more work.

On my DN, the primary tuning adjustment is the forestay tension.  Long
discussion as to why, and solving different problems, but the
adjustment is made with a turnbuckle at the front of the forestay.  In
certain conditions I pre-bend the plank with the forestay tension, and
never get a slack rig until the sail loads are way up.  That pre-load
may help this problem.

Regards,

Ken

One of my boats has that bouncing problem too. The chocks are a little
sloppy which may be the problem. It doesn't take much misalignment to
cause problems.
   The chocks fit runners with t stiffeners on top. I will post some
pictures. The cool thing about them is I don't have to make a
different plank for landsailing. We use the 1'' spindles that fit your
typical trailer hub and wheel. The chocks use the same tapered
bearings so there is zero slop in the pivot assemble. The chocks have
an  adjustable independent plate that can be toed in or out and can
create camber. I think saddle chocks could have a similar independent
plate that would do the same thing. I think the toe in and out is most
important.
   I have a feeling the new ST49 will be a good light wind boat due to
the extra 9 sq ft of wing area. I ended up tilting the wing back about
9 degrees to gain the proper for and aft ce. Because of the rake it
allowed me to place the plank further back. This way the front end
will pop up less. I hope it works right. I made the plank brackets
adjustable so I can fine tune that part.
   Basically the boat is the same as the drawings for the wd 40 accept
for a larger wing, beefier T pivot on the main wing controls and a
different size plank.
I'll post the performance when we sail it.
John


















--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>   Glad to hear that you are on the mend. Make sure and put some
> creepers on those crutches before you hit the ice.
>    It is my rear beam that is bouncing. I have the feel for the wing
> loading and unloading. I experimented with that while under way to
> see if it affected the bounce but it had no affect on it. I have been
> suspecting that it may be alignment but the runners haven't been
> making the typical noises that they do when out of whack. The bounce
> is very subtle and I think you hit the nail on the head that it may
> be because of the extra load on the beam in its new position.
> Probably they are not out that much but enough to be causing the
> subtle bounce. I just rigged my beam table so that I can ratchet
> strap the beams down with a load before aligning them so I will set
> up my beam and have a look at the alignment.
>   I think you guys are really on to something with the adjustable
> chocks. Can you fit a standard Sarns runner into them or did you have
> to modify the runners?
>   I would say that in a few years down the road we'll have the ice
> covered with youngsters. All of our kids are taking to it and soon
> will be old enough to sail alone. Its funny that iceboating was the
> number one pastime here many years ago but it skipped two generations
> for some reason. I assume it was because of the large amounts of snow
> we got in the 70's and the popularity of the snowmobile. It appears
> that the snow is coming back but I'm sure that if our boats are ready
> we'll get a ride now and then. Our ice is covered with styrofoam snow
> and we are currently getting another 8" so I guess we are on the back
> burner for awhile. Maybe its time to start another boat.
>   Good luck with the launching of your new crafts!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
> <johhnysrocket2003@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Kevin,
> > I'm glad you are enjoying the wing.
> > Bouncing. Hummm. With out much info I'll take a crack . If the
> spring
> > board is squatting and coming back up then the wing may be loading
> > putting pressure forward and unloading as the boat sppeds up. As the
> > boat speeds up the spring board unloads.
> >
> > If the runner plank loads and unloads you have an alignment issue
> or a
> > sloppy chock that causes an alignment issue.
> > Your alignment may have been good with a soft sail set up but its
> > changed with the wing. Plank is more forward . Wing is heavier and
> > place aft. Wing generates allot of side force when sheeted in. All
> of
> > these things will make the boat squat more. Runners toe out the more
> > the boat squats. The runners are trying to spread out until the
> plank
> > will squat no more because the weather runner slips. Then the plank
> > unloads and relieves itself and the process starts over. The runners
> > will make different tones as the gripping and slipping action takes
> > place. The boat goes up and down kind of slow pumping along action.
> >
> > I'm glad you daughter is enjoying iceboating. I like iceboating with
> > my son and nephew. I get more of an aok with the wife too because
> > family is involved.
> >
> > The back fusion is working . Pain level is about gone now. I had a
> new
> > hip put in 12 days ago. I'm on crutches and am feeling better every
> > day. I have a feeling Mid 2009 will be much more pain free than the
> > last 5 years for me.
> >   My dad nephew and I finished the ST 49 today. The runners and
> fully
> > adjustable chocks Frank Marsh made for it are mounted and turned out
> > fantastic. I'm so excited about it. I will love to teach the kids
> how
> > to sail the wing. We have good ice here. We may drive down and take
> > the ST49 on its maiden voyage soon. I get my staples out Wed. Maybe
> > late this week. The doctor said I couldn't drive for a car month. He
> > didn't mention iceboating ha ha.
> > John
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi John,
> > >
> > >    I hope recovery is going well and that you'll be making
> shavings
> > > soon. We just got our first three days on the ice last weekend.
> Our
> > > time was short and sweet since we now have a coating of styrofoam
> > > snow over the pond but we have our fingers crossed for a
> meltdown. I
> > > know you like to follow our antics so here is a link to the new
> site
> > > address. http://easternmaineiceboaters.com/ I had a bunch of
> problems
> > > with server address changes so this year I hooked up with a
> differnt
> > > server and domain name. Hopefully we can keep this one up and
> running
> > > for awhile.
> > >   I built a new boat for my daughter this season so I have been
> quite
> > > busy getting her going. I didn't get a chance to tinker with the
> wing
> > > like I had hoped. I just rigged and sailed it as I left off last
> > > season. The last sailing day we had conditions that were
> favorable
> > > for the wing so that I could make runs of 3/4 mile before tacking
> and
> > > play with the flap settings while doing so. The wing was a joy to
> > > drive under these conditions. I started to notice last season and
> > > especially the last sailing day of this season that my boat
> starts to
> > > bounce once the wing is hooked up and going. At first I thought
> it
> > > was just being caused by rough ice or me not  have the wing set
> > > correctly. The bounce isn't drastic but enough to make me think
> that
> > > my boat is not set up correctly. Have you ever experienced this?
> I
> > > can't seem to figure out what is causing this.
> > >
> > >                                           Kevin
> > >
> >
>

Hi John,

   Glad to hear that you are on the mend. Make sure and put some
creepers on those crutches before you hit the ice.
    It is my rear beam that is bouncing. I have the feel for the wing
loading and unloading. I experimented with that while under way to
see if it affected the bounce but it had no affect on it. I have been
suspecting that it may be alignment but the runners haven't been
making the typical noises that they do when out of whack. The bounce
is very subtle and I think you hit the nail on the head that it may
be because of the extra load on the beam in its new position.
Probably they are not out that much but enough to be causing the
subtle bounce. I just rigged my beam table so that I can ratchet
strap the beams down with a load before aligning them so I will set
up my beam and have a look at the alignment.
   I think you guys are really on to something with the adjustable
chocks. Can you fit a standard Sarns runner into them or did you have
to modify the runners?
   I would say that in a few years down the road we'll have the ice
covered with youngsters. All of our kids are taking to it and soon
will be old enough to sail alone. Its funny that iceboating was the
number one pastime here many years ago but it skipped two generations
for some reason. I assume it was because of the large amounts of snow
we got in the 70's and the popularity of the snowmobile. It appears
that the snow is coming back but I'm sure that if our boats are ready
we'll get a ride now and then. Our ice is covered with styrofoam snow
and we are currently getting another 8" so I guess we are on the back
burner for awhile. Maybe its time to start another boat.
   Good luck with the launching of your new crafts!!









--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Kevin,
> I'm glad you are enjoying the wing.
> Bouncing. Hummm. With out much info I'll take a crack . If the
spring
> board is squatting and coming back up then the wing may be loading
> putting pressure forward and unloading as the boat sppeds up. As the
> boat speeds up the spring board unloads.
>
> If the runner plank loads and unloads you have an alignment issue
or a
> sloppy chock that causes an alignment issue.
> Your alignment may have been good with a soft sail set up but its
> changed with the wing. Plank is more forward . Wing is heavier and
> place aft. Wing generates allot of side force when sheeted in. All
of
> these things will make the boat squat more. Runners toe out the more
> the boat squats. The runners are trying to spread out until the
plank
> will squat no more because the weather runner slips. Then the plank
> unloads and relieves itself and the process starts over. The runners
> will make different tones as the gripping and slipping action takes
> place. The boat goes up and down kind of slow pumping along action.
>
> I'm glad you daughter is enjoying iceboating. I like iceboating with
> my son and nephew. I get more of an aok with the wife too because
> family is involved.
>
> The back fusion is working . Pain level is about gone now. I had a
new
> hip put in 12 days ago. I'm on crutches and am feeling better every
> day. I have a feeling Mid 2009 will be much more pain free than the
> last 5 years for me.
>   My dad nephew and I finished the ST 49 today. The runners and
fully
> adjustable chocks Frank Marsh made for it are mounted and turned out
> fantastic. I'm so excited about it. I will love to teach the kids
how
> to sail the wing. We have good ice here. We may drive down and take
> the ST49 on its maiden voyage soon. I get my staples out Wed. Maybe
> late this week. The doctor said I couldn't drive for a car month. He
> didn't mention iceboating ha ha.
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> >    I hope recovery is going well and that you'll be making
shavings
> > soon. We just got our first three days on the ice last weekend.
Our
> > time was short and sweet since we now have a coating of styrofoam
> > snow over the pond but we have our fingers crossed for a
meltdown. I
> > know you like to follow our antics so here is a link to the new
site
> > address. http://easternmaineiceboaters.com/ I had a bunch of
problems
> > with server address changes so this year I hooked up with a
differnt
> > server and domain name. Hopefully we can keep this one up and
running
> > for awhile.
> >   I built a new boat for my daughter this season so I have been
quite
> > busy getting her going. I didn't get a chance to tinker with the
wing
> > like I had hoped. I just rigged and sailed it as I left off last
> > season. The last sailing day we had conditions that were
favorable
> > for the wing so that I could make runs of 3/4 mile before tacking
and
> > play with the flap settings while doing so. The wing was a joy to
> > drive under these conditions. I started to notice last season and
> > especially the last sailing day of this season that my boat
starts to
> > bounce once the wing is hooked up and going. At first I thought
it
> > was just being caused by rough ice or me not  have the wing set
> > correctly. The bounce isn't drastic but enough to make me think
that
> > my boat is not set up correctly. Have you ever experienced this?
I
> > can't seem to figure out what is causing this.
> >
> >                                           Kevin
> >
>

Kevin,
I'm glad you are enjoying the wing.
Bouncing. Hummm. With out much info I'll take a crack . If the spring
board is squatting and coming back up then the wing may be loading
putting pressure forward and unloading as the boat sppeds up. As the
boat speeds up the spring board unloads.

If the runner plank loads and unloads you have an alignment issue or a
sloppy chock that causes an alignment issue.
Your alignment may have been good with a soft sail set up but its
changed with the wing. Plank is more forward . Wing is heavier and
place aft. Wing generates allot of side force when sheeted in. All of
these things will make the boat squat more. Runners toe out the more
the boat squats. The runners are trying to spread out until the plank
will squat no more because the weather runner slips. Then the plank
unloads and relieves itself and the process starts over. The runners
will make different tones as the gripping and slipping action takes
place. The boat goes up and down kind of slow pumping along action.

I'm glad you daughter is enjoying iceboating. I like iceboating with
my son and nephew. I get more of an aok with the wife too because
family is involved.

The back fusion is working . Pain level is about gone now. I had a new
hip put in 12 days ago. I'm on crutches and am feeling better every
day. I have a feeling Mid 2009 will be much more pain free than the
last 5 years for me.
   My dad nephew and I finished the ST 49 today. The runners and fully
adjustable chocks Frank Marsh made for it are mounted and turned out
fantastic. I'm so excited about it. I will love to teach the kids how
to sail the wing. We have good ice here. We may drive down and take
the ST49 on its maiden voyage soon. I get my staples out Wed. Maybe
late this week. The doctor said I couldn't drive for a car month. He
didn't mention iceboating ha ha.
John




















--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>    I hope recovery is going well and that you'll be making shavings
> soon. We just got our first three days on the ice last weekend. Our
> time was short and sweet since we now have a coating of styrofoam
> snow over the pond but we have our fingers crossed for a meltdown. I
> know you like to follow our antics so here is a link to the new site
> address. http://easternmaineiceboaters.com/ I had a bunch of problems
> with server address changes so this year I hooked up with a differnt
> server and domain name. Hopefully we can keep this one up and running
> for awhile.
>   I built a new boat for my daughter this season so I have been quite
> busy getting her going. I didn't get a chance to tinker with the wing
> like I had hoped. I just rigged and sailed it as I left off last
> season. The last sailing day we had conditions that were favorable
> for the wing so that I could make runs of 3/4 mile before tacking and
> play with the flap settings while doing so. The wing was a joy to
> drive under these conditions. I started to notice last season and
> especially the last sailing day of this season that my boat starts to
> bounce once the wing is hooked up and going. At first I thought it
> was just being caused by rough ice or me not  have the wing set
> correctly. The bounce isn't drastic but enough to make me think that
> my boat is not set up correctly. Have you ever experienced this? I
> can't seem to figure out what is causing this.
>
>                                           Kevin
>

Hi John,

    I hope recovery is going well and that you'll be making shavings
soon. We just got our first three days on the ice last weekend. Our
time was short and sweet since we now have a coating of styrofoam
snow over the pond but we have our fingers crossed for a meltdown. I
know you like to follow our antics so here is a link to the new site
address. http://easternmaineiceboaters.com/ I had a bunch of problems
with server address changes so this year I hooked up with a differnt
server and domain name. Hopefully we can keep this one up and running
for awhile.
   I built a new boat for my daughter this season so I have been quite
busy getting her going. I didn't get a chance to tinker with the wing
like I had hoped. I just rigged and sailed it as I left off last
season. The last sailing day we had conditions that were favorable
for the wing so that I could make runs of 3/4 mile before tacking and
play with the flap settings while doing so. The wing was a joy to
drive under these conditions. I started to notice last season and
especially the last sailing day of this season that my boat starts to
bounce once the wing is hooked up and going. At first I thought it
was just being caused by rough ice or me not  have the wing set
correctly. The bounce isn't drastic but enough to make me think that
my boat is not set up correctly. Have you ever experienced this? I
can't seem to figure out what is causing this.

                                           Kevin

Thanks, the original acticle had pictures of Wingnutlll. Apparently
they sold the article and I've gotten calls from all over the North
West about it.
   The St 49 is all done except for stays and runners. I would like to
get the stays made up today or tomorrow. Tuesday I'm having my hip
joint replaced. I may not get to use it this season but I would like
to see my nephew sail it when I'm mobile again. I hope everyone had a
nice Christmas.
John






--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20"
<david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> Nice article John.  Thanks for sharing.  Too bad there wasn't a rigged
> pic.
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
> <johhnysrocket2003@> wrote:
> >
> > http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2008/dec/11/mans-fringe-hobby-really-
> sails/
> >
>

Nice article John.  Thanks for sharing.  Too bad there wasn't a rigged
pic.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
> http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2008/dec/11/mans-fringe-hobby-really-
sails/
>

http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2008/dec/11/mans-fringe-hobby-really-sails/

http://harborwingtech.com/products_demo.htm

spytech!

Dave Gluek called me yesterday. He said you may be planning on going
to Ivanpah this March. Hows the wing coming along?

for got to post the video
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7416235999297705470








--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
>
> In the video at about 5.50 min. I tack and am in a lull. At 6.00 I put
> on 30 degrees of flap and the boat starts to accelerate more. It
> doesn't look like I sheeted out any.  I noticed on some of the jibes
> it took a long time for the apparent wind to come around by watching
> the windex. I think the wind was pretty spotty and you had to be
> patient for the wing to hook back up.
>
> I think 30 degrees helps the wing not to stall during low lift
> situations as long as I'm moving at least 20 mph. 20 degrees is the
> fastest position but may suffer in lighter conditions.
>
> I am planning to make the ST 49 with adjustable gap on the flap. I
> imagine the sweet spots will change with each adjustment. My
> prediction is less gap will result in better low end for light air.
> Less gap equals better leeward flow at a higher flap angle like 30
> degrees. The flap deflected at 20 degrees may suffer from the leeflow
> not being as good.
>
> Normal or bigger gap will have a better top end at 20 degrees and not
> as good low end at 30 degrees because the gap gets too big.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Speer <me@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:51 AM, johhnysrocket2003 wrote:
> >
> > > ...I have experimented with some tell tails. I have placed them
on the
> > > main trailing edge near the flap . They get sucked into the gap
on the
> > > weather side.
> >
> > They sound like they're too long.  They should be short - say, two
> > inches - and it would be useful to have several in a row in the
> > chordwise direction.  You won't be able to see the ones on the
leeward
> > side without a mirror or window in the wing, but the ones on the
> > windward side of the main would be the ones to tell you if the gap
was
> > too small.
> >
> > > The most helpful position I've placed them is about half
> > > way back on the flap . I let the tell tail extend about an inch
passed
> > > the trailing edge of flap. That way I can see if its flowing
right if
> > > its on the lee side.If I can't see it I know its not flowing right.
> >
> > Those sound a bit long as well, although we used a similar idea on
> > Lydia, anchoring the telltales a few inches forward of the trailing
> > edge and making them long enough to see their tips from the other
side.
> >
> > A sailmaker once told me about a troublesome client he had.  The
> > client couldn't get the telltales to fly evenly up and down the
sail,
> > so he asked the sailmaker to recut the sail.  After the
modifications,
> > the telltales still didn't fly smoothly, and he brought the sail
in to
> > be recut a second time.  He still wasn't happy after the second
> > modification.  The third time he brought the sail in, the sailmaker
> > put on telltales that were about a foot and a half long.  The client
> > was satisfied when he next went sailing.
> >
> > >
> > > Most of the time I can get it flowing right if I readjust the flap
> > > angle for less angle. I have noticed in very light air that the tell
> > > tails may be flowing right at the tip but not right toward the
root or
> > > vice versa. If the boat is going about 15 or 20 mph everything flows
> > > right from top to bottom.
> >
> > This indicates the need for twist control.  Twisting the wing was
the
> > secret to Cogito's success when it won the C-Class Challenge Trophy.
> >
> > > On Wingnutlll I usually have to set the flap
> > > to 20 degrees to get started. Once I get going I can set it at 30
> > > degrees to sail higher angles or deeper in light to medium air. In
> > > heavier air I leave it at 20 degrees or less.
> >
> > Interesting.  Do you tend to sheet the wing out more after you
change
> > the flap to 30 degrees?
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Tom Speer
> >
>

In the video at about 5.50 min. I tack and am in a lull. At 6.00 I put
on 30 degrees of flap and the boat starts to accelerate more. It
doesn't look like I sheeted out any.  I noticed on some of the jibes
it took a long time for the apparent wind to come around by watching
the windex. I think the wind was pretty spotty and you had to be
patient for the wing to hook back up.

I think 30 degrees helps the wing not to stall during low lift
situations as long as I'm moving at least 20 mph. 20 degrees is the
fastest position but may suffer in lighter conditions.

I am planning to make the ST 49 with adjustable gap on the flap. I
imagine the sweet spots will change with each adjustment. My
prediction is less gap will result in better low end for light air.
Less gap equals better leeward flow at a higher flap angle like 30
degrees. The flap deflected at 20 degrees may suffer from the leeflow
not being as good.

Normal or bigger gap will have a better top end at 20 degrees and not
as good low end at 30 degrees because the gap gets too big.













--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, Tom Speer <me@...> wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:51 AM, johhnysrocket2003 wrote:
>
> > ...I have experimented with some tell tails. I have placed them on the
> > main trailing edge near the flap . They get sucked into the gap on the
> > weather side.
>
> They sound like they're too long.  They should be short - say, two
> inches - and it would be useful to have several in a row in the
> chordwise direction.  You won't be able to see the ones on the leeward
> side without a mirror or window in the wing, but the ones on the
> windward side of the main would be the ones to tell you if the gap was
> too small.
>
> > The most helpful position I've placed them is about half
> > way back on the flap . I let the tell tail extend about an inch passed
> > the trailing edge of flap. That way I can see if its flowing right if
> > its on the lee side.If I can't see it I know its not flowing right.
>
> Those sound a bit long as well, although we used a similar idea on
> Lydia, anchoring the telltales a few inches forward of the trailing
> edge and making them long enough to see their tips from the other side.
>
> A sailmaker once told me about a troublesome client he had.  The
> client couldn't get the telltales to fly evenly up and down the sail,
> so he asked the sailmaker to recut the sail.  After the modifications,
> the telltales still didn't fly smoothly, and he brought the sail in to
> be recut a second time.  He still wasn't happy after the second
> modification.  The third time he brought the sail in, the sailmaker
> put on telltales that were about a foot and a half long.  The client
> was satisfied when he next went sailing.
>
> >
> > Most of the time I can get it flowing right if I readjust the flap
> > angle for less angle. I have noticed in very light air that the tell
> > tails may be flowing right at the tip but not right toward the root or
> > vice versa. If the boat is going about 15 or 20 mph everything flows
> > right from top to bottom.
>
> This indicates the need for twist control.  Twisting the wing was the
> secret to Cogito's success when it won the C-Class Challenge Trophy.
>
> > On Wingnutlll I usually have to set the flap
> > to 20 degrees to get started. Once I get going I can set it at 30
> > degrees to sail higher angles or deeper in light to medium air. In
> > heavier air I leave it at 20 degrees or less.
>
> Interesting.  Do you tend to sheet the wing out more after you change
> the flap to 30 degrees?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tom Speer
>

On Dec 9, 2008, at 11:51 AM, johhnysrocket2003 wrote:

> ...I have experimented with some tell tails. I have placed them on the
> main trailing edge near the flap . They get sucked into the gap on the
> weather side.

They sound like they're too long.  They should be short - say, two
inches - and it would be useful to have several in a row in the
chordwise direction.  You won't be able to see the ones on the leeward
side without a mirror or window in the wing, but the ones on the
windward side of the main would be the ones to tell you if the gap was
too small.

> The most helpful position I've placed them is about half
> way back on the flap . I let the tell tail extend about an inch passed
> the trailing edge of flap. That way I can see if its flowing right if
> its on the lee side.If I can't see it I know its not flowing right.

Those sound a bit long as well, although we used a similar idea on
Lydia, anchoring the telltales a few inches forward of the trailing
edge and making them long enough to see their tips from the other side.

A sailmaker once told me about a troublesome client he had.  The
client couldn't get the telltales to fly evenly up and down the sail,
so he asked the sailmaker to recut the sail.  After the modifications,
the telltales still didn't fly smoothly, and he brought the sail in to
be recut a second time.  He still wasn't happy after the second
modification.  The third time he brought the sail in, the sailmaker
put on telltales that were about a foot and a half long.  The client
was satisfied when he next went sailing.

>
> Most of the time I can get it flowing right if I readjust the flap
> angle for less angle. I have noticed in very light air that the tell
> tails may be flowing right at the tip but not right toward the root or
> vice versa. If the boat is going about 15 or 20 mph everything flows
> right from top to bottom.

This indicates the need for twist control.  Twisting the wing was the
secret to Cogito's success when it won the C-Class Challenge Trophy.

> On Wingnutlll I usually have to set the flap
> to 20 degrees to get started. Once I get going I can set it at 30
> degrees to sail higher angles or deeper in light to medium air. In
> heavier air I leave it at 20 degrees or less.

Interesting.  Do you tend to sheet the wing out more after you change
the flap to 30 degrees?

Cheers,

Tom Speer

John,
I just want to make sure I understand right.   I would have thought
that you would start with a big flap deflection and then ease off as
you go faster.

Dave
--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
> > vice versa. If the boat is going about 15 or 20 mph everything flows
> right from top to bottom. On Wingnutlll I usually have to set the flap
> to 20 degrees to get started. Once I get going I can set it at 30
> degrees to sail higher angles or deeper in light to medium air. In
> heavier air I leave it at 20 degrees or less.
>
> John
>

Tom,
I have experimented with some tell tails. I have placed them on the
main trailing edge near the flap . They get sucked into the gap on the
weather side. The most helpful position I've placed them is about half
way back on the flap . I let the tell tail extend about an inch passed
the trailing edge of flap. That way I can see if its flowing right if
its on the lee side.If I can't see it I know its not flowing right.
Most of the time I can get it flowing right if I readjust the flap
angle for less angle. I have noticed in very light air that the tell
tails may be flowing right at the tip but not right toward the root or
vice versa. If the boat is going about 15 or 20 mph everything flows
right from top to bottom. On Wingnutlll I usually have to set the flap
to 20 degrees to get started. Once I get going I can set it at 30
degrees to sail higher angles or deeper in light to medium air. In
heavier air I leave it at 20 degrees or less.

John


















Tom
--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Tom Speer" <me@...> wrote:
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "wind2nice" <wind2nice@> wrote:
> >
> > I have an airfoil profile Tom Speer designed for LYDIA, with a 0012
> > flap (approximately). I'd appreciate Tom's thoughts on that foil now
> > some 17 years later.
>
> I haven't designed any multi-element sections lately, although that
may be about to
> change.  I now have access to MSES professionally, so I may be able
to do some landyacht
> sections.
>
> >
> > One last thought: Flying on a 757 last week, I noticed the aft-most
> > fowler flaps had vortex generators tucked in the slot. Has anyone
> > ever tufted the flaps to see if they are causing flow separation
at high
> > angles?
> >
>
> It would be useful to put tufts ahead of the trailing edge of the
wing, behind the leading
> edge of the flap, and ahead of the trailing edge of the flap.  The
gap and flap deflection
> can be adjusted to solve specific problems.  I'm assuming that the
linkage can be changed
> by moving the pivot on the wing fore and aft, simultaneously
changing the length of the
> arm to the flap so it just clears the trailing edge of the wing.
>
> If stall begins by the wing separating (taking the flap with it),
then you probably need
> more flap deflection and less angle of attack.  If the flap stalls
by separating right from the
> leading edge, then the slot needs to be closed up somewhat.  If
there is separation on the
> windward side of the wing ahead of the flap, then the slot needs to
be opened up.  If the
> flap stalls early, starting at the trailing edge, try using less
flap and see if you can get
> more lift through angle of attack.
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfJK5ycx_hg&eurl=http://www.sailinganarchy.com/in\
dex_page1.php

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "wind2nice" <wind2nice@...> wrote:
>
> I have an airfoil profile Tom Speer designed for LYDIA, with a 0012
> flap (approximately). I'd appreciate Tom's thoughts on that foil now
> some 17 years later.

I haven't designed any multi-element sections lately, although that may be about
to
change.  I now have access to MSES professionally, so I may be able to do some
landyacht
sections.

>
> One last thought: Flying on a 757 last week, I noticed the aft-most
> fowler flaps had vortex generators tucked in the slot. Has anyone
> ever tufted the flaps to see if they are causing flow separation at high
> angles?
>

It would be useful to put tufts ahead of the trailing edge of the wing, behind
the leading
edge of the flap, and ahead of the trailing edge of the flap.  The gap and flap
deflection
can be adjusted to solve specific problems.  I'm assuming that the linkage can
be changed
by moving the pivot on the wing fore and aft, simultaneously changing the length
of the
arm to the flap so it just clears the trailing edge of the wing.

If stall begins by the wing separating (taking the flap with it), then you
probably need
more flap deflection and less angle of attack.  If the flap stalls by separating
right from the
leading edge, then the slot needs to be closed up somewhat.  If there is
separation on the
windward side of the wing ahead of the flap, then the slot needs to be opened
up.  If the
flap stalls early, starting at the trailing edge, try using less flap and see if
you can get
more lift through angle of attack.

looks like I need to try another link.
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/wwg/itemDetailsRender.shtml?ItemId=1611786177




  --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
> Ken ,
> I had extended the ht of the tee . The weld broke on the coupler. It
> was a poor choice.
>
> Your set up sounds fine. The key to everything is to get the wing to
> sheet out on its own but not have too much preasure. I aim for 25 to
> 26 % of the wing and flaps combined area in front of the tee and side
> hound .
>
>
> http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cO8aScCL5yS7iUTsEJv6keFCjipgmu8AZVRbED6Ig
> AxK-1QutIbDiU8TuKIgzyLyKTsyic2A5dpp3Lb0WYXtMA/WD%2040%20plans/WD%2040%
> 20Main%20Wing%20Controls%20Top%20View%20001.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
> http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wingboats/links/Wing_controls_and
> _rigging_supplies_001208050992/
>
> John
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "wind2nice" <wind2nice@> wrote:
> >
> > Somewhere I read the total mechanical advantage target was 18 to 1
> > (18/1).  Is that about right?
> >
> > I am sizing the parts for my ST49, and was planning on a 12 inch
> wheel
> > control, a 12 inch "sprocket" under the mast, and a 19 tooth
> sprocket
> > (about three inch diameter) on the handle-end of the chain.  This is
> > 4/1 * 4/1 or 16/1 total advantage.  I can get the larger pieces
> > (handle and sprocket) a little larger, but does this seem reasonable
> > to you who have done this?  I am using #40 chain rated for 350
> pounds,
> > which seems to match well.  I don't expect to ever pull on the
> control
> > wheel harder than 60 pounds, which would put 240 pounds on the
> chain.
> >
> > Also, John, I read that the wing support steel broke on one of your
> > boats.  I was curious as to where.  In looking at your system
> > sketches, I would think the weak point was the shaft-to-two-bolt
> > flange weld.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Ken
> >
>

Ken ,
I had extended the ht of the tee . The weld broke on the coupler. It
was a poor choice.

Your set up sounds fine. The key to everything is to get the wing to
sheet out on its own but not have too much preasure. I aim for 25 to
26 % of the wing and flaps combined area in front of the tee and side
hound .


http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cO8aScCL5yS7iUTsEJv6keFCjipgmu8AZVRbED6Ig
AxK-1QutIbDiU8TuKIgzyLyKTsyic2A5dpp3Lb0WYXtMA/WD%2040%20plans/WD%2040%
20Main%20Wing%20Controls%20Top%20View%20001.jpg





http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/wingboats/links/Wing_controls_and
_rigging_supplies_001208050992/

John






--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "wind2nice" <wind2nice@...> wrote:
>
> Somewhere I read the total mechanical advantage target was 18 to 1
> (18/1).  Is that about right?
>
> I am sizing the parts for my ST49, and was planning on a 12 inch
wheel
> control, a 12 inch "sprocket" under the mast, and a 19 tooth
sprocket
> (about three inch diameter) on the handle-end of the chain.  This is
> 4/1 * 4/1 or 16/1 total advantage.  I can get the larger pieces
> (handle and sprocket) a little larger, but does this seem reasonable
> to you who have done this?  I am using #40 chain rated for 350
pounds,
> which seems to match well.  I don't expect to ever pull on the
control
> wheel harder than 60 pounds, which would put 240 pounds on the
chain.
>
> Also, John, I read that the wing support steel broke on one of your
> boats.  I was curious as to where.  In looking at your system
> sketches, I would think the weak point was the shaft-to-two-bolt
> flange weld.
>
> Thanks,
> Ken
>

Somewhere I read the total mechanical advantage target was 18 to 1
(18/1).  Is that about right?

I am sizing the parts for my ST49, and was planning on a 12 inch wheel
control, a 12 inch "sprocket" under the mast, and a 19 tooth sprocket
(about three inch diameter) on the handle-end of the chain.  This is
4/1 * 4/1 or 16/1 total advantage.  I can get the larger pieces
(handle and sprocket) a little larger, but does this seem reasonable
to you who have done this?  I am using #40 chain rated for 350 pounds,
which seems to match well.  I don't expect to ever pull on the control
wheel harder than 60 pounds, which would put 240 pounds on the chain.

Also, John, I read that the wing support steel broke on one of your
boats.  I was curious as to where.  In looking at your system
sketches, I would think the weak point was the shaft-to-two-bolt
flange weld.

Thanks,
Ken

Hi John,

   I am glad to hear things are going well with your back. Our wing
ended up being 14' tall with a 4' removable section. Since we didn't
finish it until late in the season we ended up using it on less than
perfect ice. It seems that some good ice should help out with the
light wind program. The front of my boat pops up when I hop in and I
had to learn to hop in with more grace to keep the front runner on
the ice. I was curious how The Wooden Boat gang found you. That
operation is only a few miles from here and I figured they went a
long way for that story.
   Yes we still have the web site going. I haven't done anything new
for this season but hope to get working on it soon. I made some
address changes late in the season. The new address is
http://home.maine.rr.com/easternmeiceboat/index.html/ .
   I am currently trying to finish a boat that I backburnered last
season to do the wing. My oldest daughter seems to have the iceboat
bug and wants it so I hope to get her working on it during her off
time from college. All of the guys are busy building trailers, beams,
sails and tweaking so I expect  they'll be some good material for
sailing diary.

                                     Kevin








--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003"
<johhnysrocket2003@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Kevin
>
>
> I did the interview last may with WB . They were pretty excited to
do
> something out of the ordinary for a change. Dan Spurr lives in
Montana
> so it was convienent for him to do the interview.
>   Its been about a month since the back fusion so I started driving
> again today. Its nice to get out again. I went to the shop and drew
> the new wing full size on some card board. It helps me to lay out
the
> ribs and spars so every thing fits right when I cut out and assemble
> the parts. I'm making a nontapered wing 49 sq. ft. at 14 .25' tall
> with a removable 21'' high tip. I've got the spars all cut out. The
> next thing will be to cut out the ribs.
>
> I've got a hunch that the less then perfect ice may need more wing
> area to get the boat moving. I'm curious to see what the extra 9 sq.
> ft. will do. I also made the new boat with the runner plank located
> further back than normal to keep the front end from popping up when
> you jump in. To get the rig balanced I raked it back about 9
degrees (
> a little over 24''at the tip). Hopefully my calculations work.
>
> We are getting some snow now. The lake never got that warm this
> summer. We are hoping for sailable ice this year.
>
>
> John
>
> Do you guys still have a web site? I enjoyed reading it last year.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi John,
> >
> >   With the new time change I am finding more computer time. I
have been
> > lurking and keeping up with your projects, but haven't had much
chat
> > time. I also just grabbed a copy of Wooden Boat and read your
story.
> > I'll try to keep it on the top of the pile that is on the coffee
table
> > for easy access.
> >   It is getting cold enough here to make shell ice in the puddles
at
> > night. I know better than to make predictions but there is a
feeling of
> > early ice in the air. I am looking forward to blowing the dust of
the
> > wing. At this point I don't plan to make many changes to wing or
boat
> > other than some stay wire tweaking and driver training. LOL.
Congrats
> > on making Wooden Boat Magazine. A well deserved trophy to say the
> > least.
> >
> >                                       Kevin
> >
>

Kevin


I did the interview last may with WB . They were pretty excited to do
something out of the ordinary for a change. Dan Spurr lives in Montana
so it was convienent for him to do the interview.
   Its been about a month since the back fusion so I started driving
again today. Its nice to get out again. I went to the shop and drew
the new wing full size on some card board. It helps me to lay out the
ribs and spars so every thing fits right when I cut out and assemble
the parts. I'm making a nontapered wing 49 sq. ft. at 14 .25' tall
with a removable 21'' high tip. I've got the spars all cut out. The
next thing will be to cut out the ribs.

I've got a hunch that the less then perfect ice may need more wing
area to get the boat moving. I'm curious to see what the extra 9 sq.
ft. will do. I also made the new boat with the runner plank located
further back than normal to keep the front end from popping up when
you jump in. To get the rig balanced I raked it back about 9 degrees (
a little over 24''at the tip). Hopefully my calculations work.

We are getting some snow now. The lake never got that warm this
summer. We are hoping for sailable ice this year.


John

Do you guys still have a web site? I enjoyed reading it last year.

















--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" <kgrindle@...> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>   With the new time change I am finding more computer time. I have been
> lurking and keeping up with your projects, but haven't had much chat
> time. I also just grabbed a copy of Wooden Boat and read your story.
> I'll try to keep it on the top of the pile that is on the coffee table
> for easy access.
>   It is getting cold enough here to make shell ice in the puddles at
> night. I know better than to make predictions but there is a feeling of
> early ice in the air. I am looking forward to blowing the dust of the
> wing. At this point I don't plan to make many changes to wing or boat
> other than some stay wire tweaking and driver training. LOL. Congrats
> on making Wooden Boat Magazine. A well deserved trophy to say the
> least.
>
>                                       Kevin
>

Hi John,

   With the new time change I am finding more computer time. I have been
lurking and keeping up with your projects, but haven't had much chat
time. I also just grabbed a copy of Wooden Boat and read your story.
I'll try to keep it on the top of the pile that is on the coffee table
for easy access.
   It is getting cold enough here to make shell ice in the puddles at
night. I know better than to make predictions but there is a feeling of
early ice in the air. I am looking forward to blowing the dust of the
wing. At this point I don't plan to make many changes to wing or boat
other than some stay wire tweaking and driver training. LOL. Congrats
on making Wooden Boat Magazine. A well deserved trophy to say the
least.

                                       Kevin

John i found your group at the NALSA website in the links, i must say
i found the story about your wingnut III in WoodenBoat mag very
interesting, and i would like to compliment you on a job well done,
very nice, looks like a blast, i love to work in wood and i have built
a couple boats and i'm also a novice soft water sailor so i guess i'm
sort of attracted to activitys like this, anyway i'm just trying to
learn more about your sport and the design of the wings and the boats
thanks again Joe

Welcome Joe.
I'm curious how you found this web site? Was it because of the article
? I intended to have them put a link to this website in the article
but it never happened.
   I'm in the process of building a few small simple wingboats for
further experimentation. If you are interested in the sport feel free
to ask questions. I'm sure there may be lakes in Alasks suitable for
iceboating too. I've got some free plans/drawings and instruction wing
construction video links  on the web site . I may draw specific
drawings for the boats I'm making now in the future . I also sell rib
kits for the wings too that take most of the guess work out of the
design.
John Eisenlohr











--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "Earthshaka Joe"
<slow_polk_2001@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all new member here my name is Joe and i live in Alaska, thought i
> would say hi, i read that article in Woodboat magizine on Wingnut III,
> wow that just ignited that little flame, what a great project that
> would be, and it sure looks like a ton of fun to, i'm hoping to learn
> about this sport so i joined this group by for now Joe
>

Hi all new member here my name is Joe and i live in Alaska, thought i
would say hi, i read that article in Woodboat magizine on Wingnut III,
wow that just ignited that little flame, what a great project that
would be, and it sure looks like a ton of fun to, i'm hoping to learn
about this sport so i joined this group by for now Joe