Hey John

Just wanted to give you an update since Alvord.  The new wing you built for "The
Bomb" has a nice light coat of fiberglas on it and the rear plank and spring
board also has a fresh coat.  I plan to paint them and then get the aluminium
fuselage buffed out.  Probably won't get it out on the playa until next year but
I'll let you know how she goes.

In the meantime, I'm focused on dialing in the "Flash" and getting some time
under my belt sailing her.  The boat is taking shape and I've added some 9 inch
wide wheels, set up flap control, set up a wing indicator in front of the
cockpit so I can see the wing position since it is located behind me, got a good
wind indicator mounted just in front of the wing indicator, and have made a
plastic fairing around the wing base.  The last project is to build a plexiglas
canopy over the cockpit.  The plan is to get alot of sailing in her until by Son
and I can pilot the boat with skill and confidence.  At that point we will put
her away in the container and focus our efforts on "The Bomb".  Hopefully the
playa won't be off limits due to water like it was last year, but if it happens
again, so be it, we need the water.

PS.  Hope you get some good ice!

Cheers
Jerry

A great buy for well-done plates on DNAmerica.org site:

http://dnamerica.org/forum/index.php?topic=475.0

The Renegade runners are most likely too thick to be class legal.  The Arrow
runners would work well.

Ken

I get more questions about the ST design as more people are building them. If
you have any please notify me and I will try to make them better. Here is a
little more detail I just added about the hound.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/cG0TS_icdYFx4NW-_CA7T1uEUgnGx-IXUr1usKjzSCZQVSvqGdy\
Tn2347Ik3y0-ZlZX2nY2KA8g0Tu4WG8y0Dw/ST%2049%20Drawings/St%2049%20hound%20connect\
ions%20close%20up.jpg

John

Hi Greg,
   I drew up some box rules and plans for a new boat called the ST 49. I made and
sailed the proto type on the ice last season. Got it to 71mph  on the second
trip out to the ice. Then in March I put on the wheels and competed in Nalsa
Class 5 and won the class with all 1st place finishes mainly against Nite's.
That same week I sailed it in heavy air to 79 mph. Since then I've built an
identical one for the kids to sail. Laurie Mac from Ca built another one as
well. I'm building another one now. At last count there are 2 in Wisc, 1 in Ca,
2or 3 in CT, 1 in Ill,and possible 1 in NY in planning or building stages. There
is a good posibility we will have an ST 49 one design class ( 5 of them)
competing at the next America's Cup of Landsailing  competition next March.

John

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "corporal_nobbs2003" <corporal_nobbs2003@...>
wrote:
>
> After a long absence I thought I'd poke my nose in and see what you lot are up
to.
>
> Greg
>

After a long absence I thought I'd poke my nose in and see what you lot are up
to.

Greg

http://www.youtube.com/user/BMWORACLERacingTeam#p/u/0/vwx814B9ed8

I did this once before sharpening blades for a butt board (kite boarding).  
However, I didn't know about the backer disk and I know what you mean about
flex.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@...>
wrote:
>
> Ya the 1/2'' ply really helps make things easy. I rough grind my edges with an
angle grinder first to take the meat off quicker. I use a 10'' abrasive saw
blade with a 1/2'' plywood backer disc because I found the blade flexes. It
usually takes about 3 hours per set. After that I make a blade sharpening jig
out of plywood and fine tune the edges with that and a belt sander. I finished
assembling and shaping the main wing and flap on Jim's boat yesterday.
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@> wrote:
> >
> > Same as you.  Everything is plasma cut and then trued up with a grinder. 
Your idea of using 1/2" ply for templates is a fantastic idea.  I haven't put
the edge on yet, but I'll do it the same as you ... in the table saw.   I'm
going to try to fit a grinding disk from a large hand held grinder to the table
saw.
> >
> > I was going to leave all the blades at 36", but in the end I thought the
front runner would track too good and it would be hard to steer.  The sizes are
modeled after the SARNS runners.  36" for the plank and 30" for the steering
> >
> > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > How did you machine your runners? How long are they?
> > >
> > > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@>
wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Yea we ended up just doing 3/16" 2" angle iron.  A couple of reasons. 
The first is $$$, the aluminum bar is pretty $$$.   Drilling and tapping would
be a pain, and we do a lot of busting through snow drifts and I didn't like the
bulk of the aluminum.
> >
>

Ya the 1/2'' ply really helps make things easy. I rough grind my edges with an
angle grinder first to take the meat off quicker. I use a 10'' abrasive saw
blade with a 1/2'' plywood backer disc because I found the blade flexes. It
usually takes about 3 hours per set. After that I make a blade sharpening jig
out of plywood and fine tune the edges with that and a belt sander. I finished
assembling and shaping the main wing and flap on Jim's boat yesterday.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> Same as you.  Everything is plasma cut and then trued up with a grinder.  Your
idea of using 1/2" ply for templates is a fantastic idea.  I haven't put the
edge on yet, but I'll do it the same as you ... in the table saw.   I'm going to
try to fit a grinding disk from a large hand held grinder to the table saw.
>
> I was going to leave all the blades at 36", but in the end I thought the front
runner would track too good and it would be hard to steer.  The sizes are
modeled after the SARNS runners.  36" for the plank and 30" for the steering
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@>
wrote:
> >
> > How did you machine your runners? How long are they?
> >
> > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Yea we ended up just doing 3/16" 2" angle iron.  A couple of reasons.  The
first is $$$, the aluminum bar is pretty $$$.   Drilling and tapping would be a
pain, and we do a lot of busting through snow drifts and I didn't like the bulk
of the aluminum.
>

Same as you.  Everything is plasma cut and then trued up with a grinder.  Your
idea of using 1/2" ply for templates is a fantastic idea.  I haven't put the
edge on yet, but I'll do it the same as you ... in the table saw.   I'm going to
try to fit a grinding disk from a large hand held grinder to the table saw.

I was going to leave all the blades at 36", but in the end I thought the front
runner would track too good and it would be hard to steer.  The sizes are
modeled after the SARNS runners.  36" for the plank and 30" for the steering

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@...>
wrote:
>
> How did you machine your runners? How long are they?
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@> wrote:
> >
> > Yea we ended up just doing 3/16" 2" angle iron.  A couple of reasons.  The
first is $$$, the aluminum bar is pretty $$$.   Drilling and tapping would be a
pain, and we do a lot of busting through snow drifts and I didn't like the bulk
of the aluminum.

How did you machine your runners? How long are they?

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> Yea we ended up just doing 3/16" 2" angle iron.  A couple of reasons.  The
first is $$$, the aluminum bar is pretty $$$.   Drilling and tapping would be a
pain, and we do a lot of busting through snow drifts and I didn't like the bulk
of the aluminum.
>
> Did the bolt/nut through because 3/16" wouldn't have enough holding power.   I
bought the same runner steel as you and although it is anealed, I can sure tell
when I'm drilling through the stiffener vs drilling through the runner steel.  
One drill bit lasted for one set of runners and that's it.   THis is ok though,
this means they should hold their edge better!
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@>
wrote:
> >
> > Looks like the stiffeners are made from steel. Are you going to tap them or
use nuts for your fasteners?
> >
> > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > Frank,
> > > I'm having a bit of a debate of what grade bolts to attach the stiffeners
to the runners.   I decided to just use 2" x 3/16" angle iron.  I'm attaching
with 1/4" bolts every 3" for a total of 13 bolts.  So what is really necessary. 
I think I'm just fine with grade 2 bolts.  I'd like your opinion.
> > >
> > > THanks,
> > > Dave
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolt_strength.html
> > > I read one place that the working load of grade 2 bolts is 160 lbs.  So
with 13 bolts that's 2,080lbs.   That sure seems strong enough to me!
> > >
> > > Other sources say that grade 2 bolts have Proof Load of 55,000 psi.  Doing
a little math I come up with the following:
> > >
> > > 1/4 bolt is approx .05 square inches (I measured the ID of a nut and
calulated the area using pi*r squared)
> > > 55,000 * .05 = Proof Load 2750 lbs per bolt
> > > 25% * 2750 = 688 lbs per bolt (25% safety factor)
> > > 13 bolts * 688 = 8944 lbs
> > >
> > > Using those figures even 1/4" bolts is rediculously overkill .. right?
> > >
> >
>

Yea we ended up just doing 3/16" 2" angle iron.  A couple of reasons.  The first
is $$$, the aluminum bar is pretty $$$.   Drilling and tapping would be a pain,
and we do a lot of busting through snow drifts and I didn't like the bulk of the
aluminum.

Did the bolt/nut through because 3/16" wouldn't have enough holding power.   I
bought the same runner steel as you and although it is anealed, I can sure tell
when I'm drilling through the stiffener vs drilling through the runner steel.  
One drill bit lasted for one set of runners and that's it.   THis is ok though,
this means they should hold their edge better!

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@...>
wrote:
>
> Looks like the stiffeners are made from steel. Are you going to tap them or
use nuts for your fasteners?
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@> wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> > I'm having a bit of a debate of what grade bolts to attach the stiffeners to
the runners.   I decided to just use 2" x 3/16" angle iron.  I'm attaching with
1/4" bolts every 3" for a total of 13 bolts.  So what is really necessary.  I
think I'm just fine with grade 2 bolts.  I'd like your opinion.
> >
> > THanks,
> > Dave
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolt_strength.html
> > I read one place that the working load of grade 2 bolts is 160 lbs.  So with
13 bolts that's 2,080lbs.   That sure seems strong enough to me!
> >
> > Other sources say that grade 2 bolts have Proof Load of 55,000 psi.  Doing a
little math I come up with the following:
> >
> > 1/4 bolt is approx .05 square inches (I measured the ID of a nut and
calulated the area using pi*r squared)
> > 55,000 * .05 = Proof Load 2750 lbs per bolt
> > 25% * 2750 = 688 lbs per bolt (25% safety factor)
> > 13 bolts * 688 = 8944 lbs
> >
> > Using those figures even 1/4" bolts is rediculously overkill .. right?
> >
>

Looks like the stiffeners are made from steel. Are you going to tap them or use
nuts for your fasteners?

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> Frank,
> I'm having a bit of a debate of what grade bolts to attach the stiffeners to
the runners.   I decided to just use 2" x 3/16" angle iron.  I'm attaching with
1/4" bolts every 3" for a total of 13 bolts.  So what is really necessary.  I
think I'm just fine with grade 2 bolts.  I'd like your opinion.
>
> THanks,
> Dave
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolt_strength.html
> I read one place that the working load of grade 2 bolts is 160 lbs.  So with
13 bolts that's 2,080lbs.   That sure seems strong enough to me!
>
> Other sources say that grade 2 bolts have Proof Load of 55,000 psi.  Doing a
little math I come up with the following:
>
> 1/4 bolt is approx .05 square inches (I measured the ID of a nut and calulated
the area using pi*r squared)
> 55,000 * .05 = Proof Load 2750 lbs per bolt
> 25% * 2750 = 688 lbs per bolt (25% safety factor)
> 13 bolts * 688 = 8944 lbs
>
> Using those figures even 1/4" bolts is rediculously overkill .. right?
>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0knysN58wc&feature=player_embedded

Nor would I expect for you to see problems.   Thanks for the feedback.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, FRANK MARSH <frank.marsh@...> wrote:
>
> David
> The bolts I used on the ST49 Runners that I made for John were from
McMaster-Carr & they aren't rated for class. I haven't heard of any problems
with them.
>
>
> Frank Marsh
> M & W Engineering, Inc.
> 3880 Dividend Drive Suite 100
> Shingle Springs, Ca. 95682
> 530.676.7185 Fax 530.676.7188
> frank.marsh@...
> www.mandwengine.com
>
> --- On Mon, 11/23/09, foiledagain20 <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
>
> From: foiledagain20 <david.p.schneider@...>
> Subject: [wingboats] bolt strength
> To: wingboats@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, November 23, 2009, 4:51 PM
>
>
>  
>
>
>
> Frank,
> I'm having a bit of a debate of what grade bolts to attach the stiffeners to
the runners. I decided to just use 2" x 3/16" angle iron. I'm attaching with
1/4" bolts every 3" for a total of 13 bolts. So what is really necessary. I
think I'm just fine with grade 2 bolts. I'd like your opinion.
>
> THanks,
> Dave
>
> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
>
> http://dodgeram. org/tech/ specs/bolts/ SAE_bolt_ strength. html
> I read one place that the working load of grade 2 bolts is 160 lbs. So with 13
bolts that's 2,080lbs. That sure seems strong enough to me!
>
> Other sources say that grade 2 bolts have Proof Load of 55,000 psi. Doing a
little math I come up with the following:
>
> 1/4 bolt is approx .05 square inches (I measured the ID of a nut and calulated
the area using pi*r squared)
> 55,000 * .05 = Proof Load 2750 lbs per bolt
> 25% * 2750 = 688 lbs per bolt (25% safety factor)
> 13 bolts * 688 = 8944 lbs
>
> Using those figures even 1/4" bolts is rediculously overkill .. right?
>

Here is a better chart.  I gave a 1/4" bolt way to much area, but the chart is
still in line with the 55,000 psi Proof load.
http://www.almabolt.com/pages/catalog/bolts/proofloadtensile.htm

so for a grade 2, 1/4 x 20 bolt

1750 lbs proof load
25% = 438 lbs
*13 bolts = 5688 lbs

Frank,
I'm having a bit of a debate of what grade bolts to attach the stiffeners to the
runners.   I decided to just use 2" x 3/16" angle iron.  I'm attaching with 1/4"
bolts every 3" for a total of 13 bolts.  So what is really necessary.  I think
I'm just fine with grade 2 bolts.  I'd like your opinion.

THanks,
Dave

------------------------------------------------------------

http://dodgeram.org/tech/specs/bolts/SAE_bolt_strength.html
I read one place that the working load of grade 2 bolts is 160 lbs.  So with 13
bolts that's 2,080lbs.   That sure seems strong enough to me!

Other sources say that grade 2 bolts have Proof Load of 55,000 psi.  Doing a
little math I come up with the following:

1/4 bolt is approx .05 square inches (I measured the ID of a nut and calulated
the area using pi*r squared)
55,000 * .05 = Proof Load 2750 lbs per bolt
25% * 2750 = 688 lbs per bolt (25% safety factor)
13 bolts * 688 = 8944 lbs

Using those figures even 1/4" bolts is rediculously overkill .. right?

Mike,
Thanks for taking the time and effort to document this new
material and technique. How much does the hull weigh now?
It is nearly done I would think except for paint and hardware.
This has to be a huge weight savings over wood.
It is it a cost savings too? How much is a 4x8 panel?
Let us know how it is on the ice!

Deane

What are your goals here?  I would think that the boat that john designed, built
and provided plans for would do very well, but I don't know what you are
planning on using it for.  The ST49 has a lot going for it and we all can thank
John for sharing his knowledge.  If you want a slightly bigger C-skeeter sized
boat, then take the ST49 and scale it up to your needs.  Why reinvent the wheel?
You can customize as you like if you don't plan on racing it in the class.  I
have a c-Skeeter mast sail boat and I've sailed against John's yellow ST49.  In
light air, I could not touch him.  In medium air, we were close. In heavy air, I
was faster.  But keep in mind, he was still working out the bugs at this point.

If it were me, I would avoid putting a wing on a J boat. Why be the first?
Especially when John has done all the work for you right here.

Just my 2 cents.  Let us know what you come up with.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "pax_252" <pax_252@...> wrote:
>
> Can anyone point me to basic plans or designs for an ice boat that (similar
to) a C-Skeeter and would take a wing?
> Thanks,
> JoR
>

Hey Mike,
Where do you buy NidaCore and which type and size did you choose?
How to you join the panels?

Deane

I had that conversation with Paul a few years back. It would be nice to have a
discussion with him again to see if its doable.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks, I thought there was a possibility of a wing class.  This is your quote
...
>
> "I have spoken with Paul Krueger about racing wings in the ISA. He said they
wouldn't allow a wing to compete in skeeter class but if we entered 3 or more
wings they may consider a separate skeeter class just for wings"
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@>
wrote:
> >
> > I've talked with Skip Stauber about it. He and his son are recent c skeeter
winners. He is trying to promote the class. The NIYA allows c skeeters to
compete with other skeeters. He has been thrown in with the A skeeters and I
think with the B skeeters. He said they have no trophy for the C skeeters.  As
far as know a solid wing is not legal in any iceboat class. There interpretation
of a sail means its made out of cloth. I hope to talk with someone about that
while I'm there.I plan on bringing the ST's to get them some exposure.
> >
> > --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@>
wrote:
> > >
> > > John,
> > >
> > > For the NIYA rules, who dictates what the class rules are?   From your
blurb in the intro, it kind of sounds like for the NIYA it would be an open
skeeter class for wings.  I hope that's not right.
> > >
> >
>

Thanks, I thought there was a possibility of a wing class.  This is your quote
...

"I have spoken with Paul Krueger about racing wings in the ISA. He said they
wouldn't allow a wing to compete in skeeter class but if we entered 3 or more
wings they may consider a separate skeeter class just for wings"

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@...>
wrote:
>
> I've talked with Skip Stauber about it. He and his son are recent c skeeter
winners. He is trying to promote the class. The NIYA allows c skeeters to
compete with other skeeters. He has been thrown in with the A skeeters and I
think with the B skeeters. He said they have no trophy for the C skeeters.  As
far as know a solid wing is not legal in any iceboat class. There interpretation
of a sail means its made out of cloth. I hope to talk with someone about that
while I'm there.I plan on bringing the ST's to get them some exposure.
>
> --- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@> wrote:
> >
> > John,
> >
> > For the NIYA rules, who dictates what the class rules are?   From your blurb
in the intro, it kind of sounds like for the NIYA it would be an open skeeter
class for wings.  I hope that's not right.
> >
>

that's pretty cool John!  It has to be annoying to have all those boats
following you around all day.

Maybe everyone noticed it, but that's the carrier USS Ronald Reagan in the
background at about 1:45 on.  I was recently on a cruiser that escorted the
Reagan from Hawaii back to San Diego.  It's a very impressive ship.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "johhnysrocket2003" <johhnysrocket2003@...>
wrote:
>
>
http://www.fox5sandiego.com/news/morningnews/kswb-ls-morning-news,0,3259938.tivi\
dlivestream
>

I've talked with Skip Stauber about it. He and his son are recent c skeeter
winners. He is trying to promote the class. The NIYA allows c skeeters to
compete with other skeeters. He has been thrown in with the A skeeters and I
think with the B skeeters. He said they have no trophy for the C skeeters.  As
far as know a solid wing is not legal in any iceboat class. There interpretation
of a sail means its made out of cloth. I hope to talk with someone about that
while I'm there.I plan on bringing the ST's to get them some exposure.

--- In wingboats@yahoogroups.com, "foiledagain20" <david.p.schneider@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> For the NIYA rules, who dictates what the class rules are?   From your blurb
in the intro, it kind of sounds like for the NIYA it would be an open skeeter
class for wings.  I hope that's not right.
>