Howdy Gang!  It is nice to see so much discussion of wildwater!

I have paddled an old Millennium (that I understand is the first
production Millennium made) for the last year and a half and believe
it is a great boat to get started with.  Geoff's comments are right -
  you have to be a minimum size/weight for the boat to work well
however, if you are an adult American male it would most likely
work.

I have found the boat to be stable, predictable and easy to turn.
If this is to be your first composite wildwater boat the Millennium
would be a good pick.  It is a bit slower than Dynamic/Essox hulls
but makes up for it in allowing a paddler to keep paddling through
rougher water.

Hopefully we will see lots of you in Atlanta next month for the
training camp!

rob murphy



--- In wildwater@yahoogroups.com, "Geoff" <gcalhoun9@h...> wrote:
>
> the mellenium was designed for marcus gickler who is 6 feet 7. all
> sorts of people paddle a mellenium (including dana chladek, who is
> maybe 5'6" but it is a boat for a bigger person, anyone under 5'10
gets
> swallowed
> its jesse whittemore's boat of choice for the upper yough, so not
only
> is it very stable but it has the volume and maneuverability to
deal
> with the toughest wildwater course in the u.s. it is not the
fastest
> wildwater boat but boat speed isnt what makes the difference at
least
> on the regional and national scene. the ideal boat for a bigger
racer
> who wants to race hard but is not looking to win a world
championship
>
> The esox is a faster boat, its not really tippy compared to modern
> designs but its a boat for a more aggressive racer, and is a
> competitive design, though it is also several years old now. Its
now a
> good all purpose design but it is also not really for smaller
racers.
> the cockpit rim is pretty high. it dosent turn very sharply but
most
> race courses dont require you to throw your wings down and make a
hard
> turn. the esox is the best all around mold available in the us.
>

Folks:
Here are some further comments for the pot, for whatever they are worth.

My kids are serious marathon competitors.  (Ie, Triple Crown, etc.)
Prior to becoming disillusioned with the competitive scene in slalom &
wildwater, they competed -- & won championships -- in slalom, & would
love to compete in WW if it were a legal and  competitive class.  They
are also good friends of Kaz.

Last year they ordered up a new marathon boat from Savage.  They are
happy with it. They also commented that Diller is the pre-eminent guy
for marathon boats -- & a year ago, everyone wanted a new boat.  Their
comment is that he builds excellent marathon boats, for which he is
rightfully respected, and has little or no real competition.  WW is a
new endeavor, & not his primary market.  He runs a firstclass operation,
but, that said,  WW is going to take second place to his established
customer base, at least for now. And with all the marathoners lining up
last year for new boats, (most of whom are fully employed adults with
the $$ to pay), he has a solic, lucrative customer base -- with   is no
motivation for him to cut costs  for WW competitors.

Last fall I approached Kaz about building from an NRC mold.  He was
willing, but you have to appreciate that he does not work on a factory
schedule, and also that he has got bit off more than once building from
molds he does not own.   Things ground to a halt because I was not sure
how long a time interval I could give him for the mold, and he was not
willing to meet a tight schedule for mold possession.  (In fact, as it
turned out, that probably was not a problem, considering how long it
took Diller to actually produce something.)  I found an alternative, so
I didn't pursue it.  However, I still think that Kaz's extensive
experience with building solid boats for whitewater, plus flexibility on
doing what you require (not necesarily on your schedule, tho!)  could be
a good fit, esp for training boats, of which there is obviously a
complete lack.  So maybe if a sufficient number of boats could be
ordered in one shot, so that he doesn't have to worry as much about mold
issues and it is worth his while to do it, that might be an alternative,
and offer another option. OTOH, it would probably have to be 1 or
possibly 2 designs, and someone would have to either organize a group of
   orders or front it.   As for getting hulls & decks & finishing
yoruself: my Hooter was built by Kaz & outfitted by my kids (as a Xmas
gift).  I can't speak for whether this is a routine option or a special
favor.

To repeat, this is just some of my own impressions, plus comments from
my kids, for whatever it's worth.
Disclaimer:   Kaz is a family friend & I paddle one of his boats.
Neither I nor my kids have any interest beyond suggesting a possible
alternative option. If it facilitates anything positive for both sides,
great.

As for layup/options etc
Here is an email excerpt from Kaz -- as of Sept 04, with a guesstimate
as of at that moment...( nb this is for training, --not race- layup)

"  If I could
build one at my leisure, a reasonable price guess-timate would be $1350.
That would be an S-glass, spheretex, Kevlar deck with an S-glass,
spheretex, Kevlar, Kevlar hull. Reinforcements here and there. 2 Kevlar
inside seams, 1 Kevlar outside seam. Seat and rim included, assuming
there is a seat and rim mold. ..."

Edward Gordon wrote:
> Doug- Like you, I love the idea of domestically available wildwater
> boats.  It eliminates the hassles of currency exchange rates,
> intercontental shipping, customs, and communications.  However, based on
> personal experience, I do have a couple of caveats.   First, there
> doesn't seem to be a ton of monetary savings over having a boat shipped
> from Europe.  Second, I don't think that any of the domestic boat makers
> using the NRC molds have a lot of whitewater, let alone wildwater
> experience.  With 20/20 hindsight if I were ordering a boat
> domestically, I'd be very specific about what I wanted- "I want a boat
> made of x,y, z, vacuum bagged, with kevlar seams inside and out,
> weighing no more than x lbs".  If you want a race boat, it sucks to get
> a boat heavier than your training boat, especially if you've got
> concerns about its lay-up and durability.   Because of this, and because
> of the proven quality of some of the European boat makers, I'd lean
> towards them.  Maybe we need to work on getting USACK to arrange 1
> container Europe to US a year.  All the various disciplines could
> pre-order and the manufacturers could all deliver to one port for a
> combined delivery.  Just my thoughts....Ed
>
> */Doug Ritchie <dr1001wildwater@...>/* wrote:
>
>     Anyone looking for a Wildwater Kayak in the U.S. should take a look
>     at
>     what Savage River Works is building.  They have both the Esox and
>     Millenium molds and can build a finished boat or the deck and hull
>     and
>     you can finish out the boat.  Getting an unfinished deck and hull is
>     a
>     good way to save money...if you know how to put the deck and hull
>     together.  If you don't, spend the money to buy the finished
>     product.
>
>     As far as prices go, I paid $2,400 for a Savage 3000 in Feb. of 2005
>     and about $500 for a training boat.  The training boat looked like
>     it
>     had been run over by a truck!  I had to cut the deck off (threw it
>     away) and put a new deck on.  I also had to perfom major sugery on
>     the
>     bow to get it to look like a kayak and not a Baboon's ass.  Then
>     build
>     a rim and install foot braces, thigh braces, a seat etc. etc. etc.
>     By
>     the time I was done...well that's just it!  I'm still not done!!!
>     it's
>     in my garage waiting to be finished.  If my time is worth $50 an
>     hour
>     (which, trust me, it is) then I have about $4,000 invested in my
>     training boat.  And, I have yet to use it.  So I'm thinking my next
>     boat is coming totally finished from Savage River Works.
>
>     Doug Ritchie is the Vice-Chair of USA Wildwater.  He does not have a
>     financial relationship or knowledge of Savage River Works.  Mr.
>     Ritchie cannot vouch for the quality of construction of their
>     products
>     or the appropriatness of their designs.  Kayak racing is a dangerous
>     sport, great care must be taken by the participants to make sure
>     their
>     equipment meets their own safety standard.  No one is claiming that
>     the above mentioned company can or offered to meet any standard.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>
>     *  Visit your group "wildwater
>       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wildwater>" on the web.
>
>     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>        wildwater-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hi,

Looking to get some boat info, here is all I have:

I recieved an old, fiberglass, busted up boat I am going to re-glass
this winter and start training with on flatwater asap.  Im trying to
get in shape for some downriver races this spring.  The boat is
red/orange, has a scratched up logo that looks like it says either
"rapidesigns" or "rapid designs", and "GS2" "Designed by Tom West".
It doesnt look like a specific wildwater boat, so much as an old
school long boat.  Just wondering if anyone can give me any more info.

Also, I should be able to start working out a couple times a week on
flat water in late feb.  What are the things i should be doing to
build up endurance for a series 5-8 and a couple 15 mile races.

Thanks a whole bunch, and if you think this is the wrong place to be
posting this, point me in the right direction!

Cheers
Dan

Anyone looking for a Wildwater Kayak in the U.S. should take a look
at
what Savage River Works is building.  They have both the Esox and
Millenium molds and can build a finished boat or the deck and hull
and
you can finish out the boat.  Getting an unfinished deck and hull is
a
good way to save money...if you know how to put the deck and hull
together.  If you don't, spend the money to buy the finished
product.

As far as prices go, I paid $2,400 for a Savage 3000 in Feb. of 2005
and about $500 for a training boat.  The training boat looked like
it
had been run over by a truck!  I had to cut the deck off (threw it
away) and put a new deck on.  I also had to perfom major sugery on
the
bow to get it to look like a kayak and not a Baboon's ass.  Then
build
a rim and install foot braces, thigh braces, a seat etc. etc. etc.
By
the time I was done...well that's just it!  I'm still not done!!!
it's
in my garage waiting to be finished.  If my time is worth $50 an
hour
(which, trust me, it is) then I have about $4,000 invested in my
training boat.  And, I have yet to use it.  So I'm thinking my next
boat is coming totally finished from Savage River Works.

Doug Ritchie is the Vice-Chair of USA Wildwater.  He does not have a
financial relationship or knowledge of Savage River Works.  Mr.
Ritchie cannot vouch for the quality of construction of their
products
or the appropriatness of their designs.  Kayak racing is a dangerous
sport, great care must be taken by the participants to make sure
their
equipment meets their own safety standard.  No one is claiming that
the above mentioned company can or offered to meet any standard.

the mellenium was designed for marcus gickler who is 6 feet 7. all
sorts of people paddle a mellenium (including dana chladek, who is
maybe 5'6" but it is a boat for a bigger person, anyone under 5'10 gets
swallowed
its jesse whittemore's boat of choice for the upper yough, so not only
is it very stable but it has the volume and maneuverability to deal
with the toughest wildwater course in the u.s. it is not the fastest
wildwater boat but boat speed isnt what makes the difference at least
on the regional and national scene. the ideal boat for a bigger racer
who wants to race hard but is not looking to win a world championship

The esox is a faster boat, its not really tippy compared to modern
designs but its a boat for a more aggressive racer, and is a
competitive design, though it is also several years old now. Its now a
good all purpose design but it is also not really for smaller racers.
the cockpit rim is pretty high. it dosent turn very sharply but most
race courses dont require you to throw your wings down and make a hard
turn. the esox is the best all around mold available in the us.

The Millenium is definately a favorite of bigger paddlers.

John


"Lutz, Matt" <mlutz@...> wrote:

>stick with the millenium - its a bit easier to paddle and as you know if
>its easier then you'll be faster....
>
>________________________________
>
>From: wildwater@yahoogroups.com [mailto:wildwater@yahoogroups.com] On
>Behalf Of Edward Gordon
>Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 8:27 AM
>To: wildwater@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [wildwater] Can anyone tell me about...
>
>
>Doug- It's not totally on point, but the following link on the British
>ww site gives some information:
>http://wildwater.suddenlaunch.com/index.cgi?board=news
>Look under "lets talk boats".  I would think Geoff Calhoun or Chris
>Hipgrave would have the most information on the pros and cons of the
>k-1's out there.  For what its worth, Charles Albright has both a
>Millennium and an Esox. He generally paddles the Esox (because he broke
>the Millennium foot brace) , but says both are good.   .....Ed
>
>Doug Ritchie <dr1001wildwater@...> wrote:
>
>    Can anyone tell me about the characteristics of the Millenium
>kayak
>    and the Esox kayak.  I was in a Millenium owned by Tom Moore in
>    Kernville CA.  That was back in 2003 and I hadn't been in a
>wildwater
>    kayak since 1992 at the time.  So, yes, it was very weird.  But
>now
>    I'm wondering about those two boat types, which is faster?  I am
>45
>    years old, still a bit over weight and probably deluding myself
>into
>    believing I can handle a fast squirly boat.  Let me know if you
>know
>    anything.
>
>    Thanks, Doug Ritchie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>SPONSORED LINKS
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>g&w2=Sports+psychology+degree&w3=Sport+psychology+college&w4=Sport+psych
>ology+course&w5=Sport+nutrition&w6=Sport+fishing&c=6&s=154&.sig=8MmNcbXu
>_wsxGynRVhwgzA>
>
>________________________________
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>     wildwater-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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And you can always build a boat. The molds are property of USA Wildwater and you
can "borrow" one as long as you schedule in in advance and don't interrupt
production.

I would get help from folks that have done this before.

JP


Scott Chestnut <stchestnut@...> wrote:

>You can also check cboats.net.  There are boats for sale under the C-forum.
>  
>  STC
>
>Geoff <gcalhoun9@...> wrote:
>  I'll speak up for nathan in this case - he's been all over the website
>and has inquired about just about every boat for sale on it. hes only
>in the market for a used boat because of the cost of a new boat, and by
>the way, 1800 for a training layup is absurd.
>
>If your going for a new boat I think it might actually be cheaper to
>get a boat send over from europe. zastera's 2nd class layups are only
>600 euros. theres tax and shipping costs, but even if those are over
>500 dollars, the boat is still much cheaper, with proven quality.
>having said that, if anyone is interested in having a boat sent over -
>send me an email.
>
>back to nathans situation. hes been looking for the better part of the
>year, and nthing is popping up on usawildwater. there have got to be
>people out there who have a boat laying around in fair condition who
>never use it. so if anyone knows of such a boat, please do your part.
>the shortage of inexpensive boats in this country is pretty serious. I
>think idealy he would be wanting to spend under 400 dollars, but I
>think he'll put down twice that if its his only option.
>
>
>
>
>
>  SPONSORED LINKS
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college     Sport psychology course   Sport nutrition   Sport fishing
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Can anyone tell me about the characteristics of the Millenium kayak
and the Esox kayak.  I was in a Millenium owned by Tom Moore in
Kernville CA.  That was back in 2003 and I hadn't been in a wildwater
kayak since 1992 at the time.  So, yes, it was very weird.  But now
I'm wondering about those two boat types, which is faster?  I am 45
years old, still a bit over weight and probably deluding myself into
believing I can handle a fast squirly boat.  Let me know if you know
anything.

Thanks, Doug Ritchie

I'll speak up for nathan in this case - he's been all over the website
and has inquired about just about every boat for sale on it. hes only
in the market for a used boat because of the cost of a new boat, and by
the way, 1800 for a training layup is absurd.

If your going for a new boat I think it might actually be cheaper to
get a boat send over from europe. zastera's 2nd class layups are only
600 euros. theres tax and shipping costs, but even if those are over
500 dollars, the boat is still much cheaper, with proven quality.
having said that, if anyone is interested in having a boat sent over -
send me an email.

back to nathans situation. hes been looking for the better part of the
year, and nthing is popping up on usawildwater. there have got to be
people out there who have a boat laying around in fair condition who
never use it. so if anyone knows of such a boat, please do your part.
the shortage of inexpensive boats in this country is pretty serious. I
think idealy he would be wanting to spend under 400 dollars, but I
think he'll put down twice that if its his only option.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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I didn't see a 500 as one of your time trials but i think thats a
good distance to trial every once in a while because its about the
same distance as a sprint. my times from the last 3 winters in the
model basin:
2004 - 2.19
2005-  2.16
2006* -2.09 @95 %

I've shaved some time from last year with a few changes in technique
(shorter, quicker, more powerful strokes and a lower stroke rate and
more of a push with the top hand.) I've also raised the intensity
level on the long distance paddles this year, so its less of a
cruise. I think this has  helped my endurance a great deal and has
made my 'easy pace' faster. the improved technique should also help
in the sprint, as long as i dont get too exited and start windmilling
on race day. I'd be curious to see how andrew's and chris's time
compare but I guess one can assume that mine will be about the time
to beat next year.

internationally, based on my own sucess (or lack thereof), 2.25 is a
good goal for those interested in racing at the world cups. 2.15
would get you into the middle of the pack. 2.05 will make you
competitive. I've heard that the top czechs do a 500 in about or just
under 2 minutes. I was told Tomas Slovak (who is probably the fastest
on a flat course and usually in the top 5 in any given sprint) did a
1.56 last year. I'm hoping to get under 2.05 before trials

I didn't keep a record but eric o's times were i believe in the
2.30's, but keep in mind that was his first year training hard so
he's gotten much faster. i believe he was the fastest in the junior's
sprint last trials so 2.30 is a good goal for juniors. 2.20 would
make you competitive at a junior worlds event. 2.10 I'm guessing
would be close to the gold standard.

now that our latest training camp with ben ledewitz and nathan hamm
of three rivers kayak club in pittsburg is over, we're moving it
inside for the winter in DC, since it hasnt gone up to 40 degrees in
i dont know how long, and the potomac is starting to get ice in the
eddies, and the canal will be ready for skating soon. once all the
lfwc members do 500 time trials I'll post them. we'll do 2k's and
5k's in the spring.

who else has done 500 time trials in a wildwater boat? I'd like to
see some other times




--- In wildwater@yahoogroups.com, "wierc1" <wierc1@y...> wrote:
>
> More time trials posting...
> On Saturday I did my first 4300 meter time trial, figuring that the
> distance is close to the Karlovy Vary course on the Tepla.  I
wasn't
> feeling great from the start, and nearly vomited at about 3000
meters,
> so my times weren't what I had hoped.  I was paddling into a medium
> wind half the time as well, but that's normal for my lake.  Anyway,
> here is my time, with splits:
>
> 1000m: 5:55
> 2100m: 12:25
> 3200m: 19:17
> 4300m: 26:08
>
> Anyone else out there with a distance and time?  Doesn't have to be
the
> same distances as me, just so you know how long it is.
>
> Tom
>

I'll speak up for nathan in this case - he's been all over the website
and has inquired about just about every boat for sale on it. hes only
in the market for a used boat because of the cost of a new boat, and by
the way, 1800 for a training layup is absurd.

If your going for a new boat I think it might actually be cheaper to
get a boat send over from europe. zastera's 2nd class layups are only
600 euros. theres tax and shipping costs, but even if those are over
500 dollars, the boat is still much cheaper, with proven quality.
having said that, if anyone is interested in having a boat sent over -
send me an email.

back to nathans situation. hes been looking for the better part of the
year, and nthing is popping up on usawildwater. there have got to be
people out there who have a boat laying around in fair condition who
never use it. so if anyone knows of such a boat, please do your part.
the shortage of inexpensive boats in this country is pretty serious. I
think idealy he would be wanting to spend under 400 dollars, but I
think he'll put down twice that if its his only option.

Hi,

I'm looking to buy a wildwater boat, and was wondering if anyone had
one for sale?

I am a Junior and have been training with Geoff Calhoun in DC for the
past week. He has arranged for me to borrow someones boat to train in
when I go back to Pittsburgh, but I need a boat for team trials in
April. If anyone has a boat they are willing to part with please let
me know.

Despretly looking for a wildwater boat,

Nathan Hamm
(412) 760-3347

--
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I'll be there.  Is it going to be running?  What's the deal if there is no
water?
Will
> Who will be racing this coming weekend at the Jiffy Wildwater Race on the
> Tuckasegee?
>
>

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More time trials posting...
On Saturday I did my first 4300 meter time trial, figuring that the
distance is close to the Karlovy Vary course on the Tepla.  I wasn't
feeling great from the start, and nearly vomited at about 3000 meters,
so my times weren't what I had hoped.  I was paddling into a medium
wind half the time as well, but that's normal for my lake.  Anyway,
here is my time, with splits:

1000m: 5:55
2100m: 12:25
3200m: 19:17
4300m: 26:08

Anyone else out there with a distance and time?  Doesn't have to be the
same distances as me, just so you know how long it is.

Tom

Geoff- Nice to know others are enjoying the cold.  Its
28 and snowy but sunny in Truckee, perfect for a 45
min lap around the resevoir to burn off the Holiday
pie. Enjoy....Ed

--- Geoff <gcalhoun9@...> wrote:


---------------------------------
We've had a kind of informal Little Falls Wildwater
Club training camp
up here in Maryland this week. Andrew McEwan and Middy
Tilghman are
back from their latest expedition and joined up with
myself, and local
juniors Eric Orenstein, Callum Lewandrowski and 12
year old wildwater
prodigy Peter Lutter for some blood pumping aerobic
workouts in the
borderline freezing weather on the Potomac. Everyones
paddling very
well, and getting as much time in on the water as
possible before we
take it indoors to the us navy's submarine model
testing basin. on
friday, 5 of us braved the cold to complete the 12
mile paddle from
great falls park to Fletchers Boathouse in DC,
including Little Falls.
Everyones psyched about training and running
whitewater, so you can
expect purple power to be at trials in force next
year.






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We've had a kind of informal Little Falls Wildwater Club training camp
up here in Maryland this week. Andrew McEwan and Middy Tilghman are
back from their latest expedition and joined up with myself, and local
juniors Eric Orenstein, Callum Lewandrowski and 12 year old wildwater
prodigy Peter Lutter for some blood pumping aerobic workouts in the
borderline freezing weather on the Potomac. Everyones paddling very
well, and getting as much time in on the water as possible before we
take it indoors to the us navy's submarine model testing basin. on
friday, 5 of us braved the cold to complete the 12 mile paddle from
great falls park to Fletchers Boathouse in DC, including Little Falls.
Everyones psyched about training and running whitewater, so you can
expect purple power to be at trials in force next year.

Tom, thanks for posting - i think its a real good idea for training
athletes to do time trials and especially to post them now that we
have this website. I've kept trackof time trials and race times and
results, levels, etc but most of them are on whitewater - and the
conditions can only be replicated at certain water levels.

most of the flatwater time trials i have are 500 meters and 200
meters (with a turn at the 1000 meter mark, so add maybe 10 seconds
for the turn)

500 meters february 2004in model basin (indoors) vajda sesia - 2.19
(old time) - i suspect i'm under  2.12 now
2000 meters  - outdoors with turn (90% intensity) 9.45 2005 kesako
1000 meters - 85% intensity (not time trial speed)4.30  2005 kesako

ll of these are either from last year or werent true time trials but
they are a good guide of the kind of times you'd need to be getting
to be a a threat to win on the domestic scene. top world k1's will do
a sub 2minute 500, a thousand in 4 minutes and some change, are
probably pushing 9 minutes for a 2k

I'll try and do some trials and get them up here, as well as some of
my old times, and time of some of the juniors i train with here in
MD/DC

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2004-2005 Time Trial Best Times
Tom Wier, in a C-1 Bala
3200 meters:  19:23
1000 meters:  5:31

2005-2006 Season Time Trials
Tom Wier, in a C-1 Bala
October 29th
3200 meters: 19:17