Another comment

---------------------------- Original Message ----------------------------
Subject: Re: Digest Number 1158
From: "mel_d31031983" <melissa.j.davis@...>
Date: Fri, September 1, 2006 1:14 pm
To: alehouse-owner@yahoogroups.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


As an alehousian who has been flittering between present and past
membership for a few years now, I'd like to ask people to please, please
stop bickering and start working together. The relays are a matter of
weeks away and the venue has been moved. Whether this is the right or
wrong decision (I personally agree with the move) is yet to be seen, but
everyone can have their say once the relays is over and we know what
we're dealing with.

I agree with suggestions that somehow combining the past traditions with
the new move could work to celebrate the 40th in style, and
might be a compromise that everyone is happy with. The important
thing is to try and make this year's relays a success, I hope that any
postings to AW or similar would be promoting the event and not putting
athletes off entering.

Cheers,

Melissa














> >> Hello chaps and ladies,
> >>
> >> I'm slightly dissappointed with the announcement that the
relays will
> >> be
> >> moved, especially as it seems to have caused such a split in
the club.
> >> Julia, I understand that there are more people in the commitee
that
> >> you
> >> have discussed this with, but this is still a relatively small
number. Also
> >> history tells us that the majority of present members won't
have an
> >> interest in the club several years down the line like the past
members who
> >> have voiced their concerns have shown.
> >>
> >> Rather than letting this cause an all out split in the club may
I
> >> suggest a
> >> simple alternative which could keep everyone happy. My proposal:
> >>
> >> In the morning of the relays at least one past and one present
member
> >> team
> >> head down to the old course. The teams then conduct a 6 man
relay for
> >> the
> >> chaps and a 3 woman relay for the ladies round the traditional
course. For
> >> this we will rely on people knowing the course and maybe only
one time
> >> keeper. We send the results from this to Athletics Weekly
calling it
> >> the
> >> 40th Manchester University relay. In the afternoon we all do
the new
> >> relay
> >> which for this year could be called something like 'The
University of
> >> Manchester relay on a bland boring course' (That is a joke
before the
> >> present members get offended). This afternoon one can be the
one with
> >> all
> >> the time and money invested into it, but the results should be
sent
> >> in as
> >> the new name. In the evening past and present all enjoy a beer
together
> >> while laughing at how badly the past hammered the present twice
(This
> >> is
> >> clearly not a joke the present members are sh*te). Then come
the AGM
> >> we can
> >> have the discussion and vote that this issue truly deserves.
> >>
> >> Now lets stop this debate and get back to sending out offensive
Emails
> >> about Grimmers' equine features.
> >>
> >> Lots of Love,
> >>
> >> Wardy
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From:  "Julia Leventon" <jleventon2@...>
> >> Reply-To:  alehouse@yahoogroups.com
> >> To:  alehouse@yahoogroups.com
> >> Subject:  RE: [alehouse] Mad idea
> >> Date:  Tue, 29 Aug 2006 18:34:13 +0000
> >>>> Everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> The debate continues.  I agree with Grimmers in that people
should
> >> speak
> >>>> their mind and let people know their opinions.  But please
can I
> >> request
> >>>> (actually beg) that we all stop making assumptions.  They
arent very
> >>>> constructive and lead to hurt feelings.  In particular,
please can
> >>>> the
> >> idea
> >>>> of any kind of obligatory link with Trafford be dropped
now.  I was
> >> being
> >>>> entirely honest when spelling out the situation with Trafford
last
> >>>> time
> >> I
> >>>> replied along this vein.  The only people at Trafford who are
even
> >> aware
> >>>> that Rockliffe and I are part of the organising committee for
the
> >> relays
> >>>> are
> >>>> those people who are also members of Alehouse.  I have never
and
> >>>> would
> >>>> never
> >>>> discuss it with Trafford as it has nothing to do with
Trafford.  It
> >>>> therefore is not fair to tar them with the same brush with
which you
> >> are
> >>>> tarring me.  I really dont understand why there is an
argument
> >>>> going on
> >>>> about which affiliated clubs we are all members of.  It
doesnt
> >>>> matter
> >> and
> >>>> doesnt have any relevance.
> >>>>
> >>>> The other assumption that I would like to dispell is that a
small
> >>>> collective
> >>>> of people have made this decision.  It isnt just me
> >> and Rockliffe that have
> >>>> chosen to do this.  We have two other people on the relays
committee.
> >>>> Beyond that there are the people on the club
committee.  Beyond that
> >> there
> >>>> are the present members.  We may be the only two who are
posting on
> >> here,
> >>>> but that doesnt mean we are the only two involved in
decision
> >>>> making.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please dont assume that we arent listening.  We may not
agree, and
> >>>> decisions
> >>>> may be taken that you dont agree with, but we are
listening.  You
> >>>> may
> >> never
> >>>> agree with anything I hve to say, and I'm not sure you ever
will
> >>>> over
> >> this
> >>>> issue, but I am willing to trust that you are reading what I
am
> >>>> writing
> >> and
> >>>> at least considering it.
> >>>>
> >>>> On practical points...we are actually grateful
> >> that you are raising
> >>>> potential problems such as the future of marking out the
> >>>> course.  These
> >> are
> >>>> problems that have solutions, such as creating and
maintaining a
> >>>> clear
> >>>> course plan and handbook for future organisers.
> >>>>
> >>>> I realise we havent conducted formal consultation in the way
you
> >>>> would
> >>>> like.
> >>>>    However, consultation has occurred.  One of the reasons
behind
> >> moving
> >>>> now
> >>>> and voting later is that general consensus amongst present
members
> >>>> is
> >> to
> >>>> move it.  Present members have a vote at AGM and past members
do
> >> not.  If
> >>>> we
> >>>> left it, and went to AGM it would be moved.  If we move it
for this
> >> year,
> >>>> everyone has a chance to consider.  Additionally, as a result
of
> >> concerns
> >>>> raised by past members, runners will be asked to complete a
quick
> >>>> questionnaire so that we can also consider the opinions of
> >> competitors.  I
> >>>> will give you all a chance to read this questionnaire before
the
> >>>> day to
> >>>> ensure it is fair.
> >>>>
> >>>> In terms of the AGM, I feel an item we need to discuss this
year is
> >>>> the
> >>>> issue of ownership of the relays.  We need to include in the
> >> constitution
> >>>> how far the relays is a concept, or a set in stone
object.  How far
> >>>> ownership is to the present club and committee etc.
> >>>>
> >>>> Finally, CP we are all concerned about your proposal to send a
petition/letter to AW.  We realise that you are upset about
the
> >>>> issue,
> >> but
> >>>> feel that such a move has the potential to damage the
> >> event.  This isnt in
> >>>> our interests, which I'm sure is the point of the move.  But
I cant
> >>>> see
> >>>> that
> >>>> it is in the interest of the relays that you are trying to
preseve
> >>>> either...it has the potential to damage the reputation of the
relays
> >> for
> >>>> the
> >>>> future too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Really finally, would it help instill confidence or alleviate
worry
> >>>> if
> >> we
> >>>> did have a face to face meeting about this?  Obviously, the
majority of
> >>>> past
> >>>> members wont be there as its not term time, but if this is
something
> >> that
> >>>> would help this situation, please do say.
> >>>>
> >>>> Best wishes,
> >>>> Julia
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> From: "Chris Paul" <idea@...>
> >>>>> Reply-To:
> >> alehouse@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> To: alehouse@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>> CC: andrew_j_lister@...
> >>>>> Subject: [alehouse] Mad idea
> >>>>> Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 13:53:54 +0100 (BST)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Four quick points:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - When it comes to making sensitive and important decisions
the
> >>>>> last
> >>>>> people who should have a role in the decision are those who
quote:
> >>>>>     "Don't really see the issue"
> >>>>> At least Julia showed some sign of hearing the arguments
before
> >>>>> steam
> >>>>> rollering over them with the illogical and pre-emptive move
to
> >>>>> better
> >>>>> inform the decision by moving the race anyway ...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - As a summary it is now fair to say that this matter is
polarised
> >> into a
> >>>
> >>>> small group of people, mostly connected with Trafford AC, who
don't
> >> care
> >>>>> about the traditions of our club who want to move the race,
and a
> >> vast
> >>>>> majority from everywhere else who do care and don't want to
move
> >>>>> it.
> >>>>> Trafford is not a harrier club and did not even exist when
this
> >>>>> event
> >> was
> >>>>> established.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Let's suppose that some bright students from Oxford and
Cambridge
> >>>> seeing
> >>>>> the great success of the World Rowing Championships at
Dorney Lake
> >> last
> >>>>> week decided to move The Boat Race there because is was
easier than
> >> the
> >>>>> traditional course with better changing, easier timekeeping
or
> >> whatever
> >>>>> ... what would people say to *that* mad idea?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Such a decision MUST be made by
> >> the club AGM with due notice and proper
> >>>>> discussion, taking on board opinions of those who cannot be
there,
> >> not by
> >>>>> some determined clique exceeding their role and
responsibilities.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> The great appeal of this race on the traditional course to
many is
> >> coming
> >>>>> back year after year and seeing how they have improved for
the
> >>>>> first
> >> few
> >>>>> years after graduation and how they are holding back the
years
> >>>>> after
> >>>>> they've reached their peak. This applies to oldies from all
the
> >>>>> unis
> >> and
> >>>>> also to club runners.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Of course it is possible to come up with a
technically "better"
> >> course
> >>>> but
> >>>>> the essence of events like this is the tradition and the
> >> peculiarities of
> >>>>> the course. As Dr Pat Milroy said once you
> >> move the race to flat playing
> >>>>> fields it could be more or less anywhere in the country. He
might
> >> also
> >>>>> have added that this decision would bind the club to a much
more
> >>>> difficult
> >>>>> course marking effort in the future. I know this as I
designed and
> >>>>> supervised a BUSA championship course on these very
fields ...
> >>>>> though
> >>>> with
> >>>>> some added interest.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This is a bad decision whatever the merits of the arguments
because
> >> it
> >>>> has
> >>>>> been taken in such a cliquey and contemptuous way.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "Improving the race" is not synonymous with "improving the
course"
> >> and
> >>>> the
> >>>>> muddied and/or perverse "thinking" around this has been
amazing.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Best w
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>>> Chris P
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> From: andrew lister
> >>>>>> [mailto:andrew_j_lister@...]
> >>>>>>   Sent: 28 August 2006 15:24
> >>>>>>   To: Paul Rockliffe
> >>>>>>   Subject: Re: FW: [alehouse] Relays - this mad idea of
moving the
> >> race
> >>>>> on
> >>>>>> its
> >>>>>>   40h anniversary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   Can you post on my behalf:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   I don't really see the issue!? Improving the race with
better
> >>>>> facilities
> >>>>>> is
> >>>>>>   likely to attract more good runners and their clubs,
promote The
> >>>>>> University
> >>>>>
> >>>   of Manchester as a good uni for running and generate
increased
> >>> funds
> >>>>> for
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>   club which can be used for the benefit of the members -
all good
> >>>>> things.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   As an aside the past versus present race has in my
experience
> >>>> normally
> >>>>>> been
> >>>>>>   held over the relays course - perhaps this could continue
on the
> >> old
> >>>>>> course?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   From: alehouse@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:alehouse@yahoogroups.com]
> >> On
> >>>>>> Behalf
> >>>>>>   Of Chris Paul
> >>>>>>   Sent: 25 August 2006 15:59
> >>>>>>   To: alehouse@yahoogroups.com
> >>>>
> >>>>   Cc: ron@...; john.whetton@...
> >>>>>>   Subject: [alehouse] Relays - this mad idea of moving the
race on
> >> its
> >>>>> 40h
> >>>>>>   anniversary
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   Couple of points :
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - If the relay is moved it should be presented as the
FIRST
> >> ANNUAL
> >>>>> KENWORTHY FARM RELAYS and not as the 40th ANNUAL etc as it
isn't
> >> that.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - The traditional lap is 2 miles and 100 yards NOT 2.1
miles
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - If the relay is moved another race should be organised
on the
> >>>> proper
> >>>>> course, possibly in the spring, and that would be the 40th.
It
> >>>>> would
> >> be
> >>>>
> >>> far more satisfactory if the new race did not take the
traditional
> >>> date
> >>>>> and as Dave suggests that that was organised some other time.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - The old changing rooms etc are all gone now at Wyth
Ground.
> >>>>>> The
> >> new
> >>>>> ones are shiny and new (though I'm not sure about
&quot;multi
> >>>>> million
> >>>>>> pounds&quot;
> >>>>>>   but have no bar facilities at all!!! The bridge across
the M-way
> >> (to
> >>>>> the
> >>>>>>   park!) has been completely refettled.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - If anyone is interested in signing a letter to AW or
being
> >> quoted
> >>>> in
> >>>>> a press release to local papers on this debacle please get
in touch
> >>>>> with me direct and we'll sort something
> >> out.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>   - Ditto with organising possible Spring race on
traditional
> >> course.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>                                              Back to top
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>>                ALEHOUSE ACADEMICALS - beer and 'athletics'
in
> >> balance,
> >>>>>>   join us at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/alehouse
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> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> idea - a catalyst for art and ideas
> >>>>>
> >>>>> http://www.idea.org.uk/archive
> >>>>> http://www.chapelstreet.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 07976 949853
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> ALEHOUSE ACADEMICALS - beer and 'athletics' in balance,
> >>>>> join us at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/alehouse
> >>>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
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> >>>>>
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> >>>>
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> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ALEHOUSE ACADEMICALS
> >> - beer and 'athletics' in balance,
> >>> join us at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/alehouse
> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (7)
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
> > 2a. Trafford AC - apologies
> > Posted by: "Chris Paul" idea@... idea500uk
> > Date: Thu Aug 31, 2006 6:52 am (PDT)
> >
> > Apologies to Trafford AC stalwarts like Dazza, Dr and Mrs
Tippy,
> > Franco,
> > Neil who are on the right side over relays. I did no mean to
suggest
> > that
> > everyone at Trafford is an idiot that wants to move the relay,
just
> > that
> > those that do want to move it happen to be newish members. This
is a
> > coincidence - I completely accept that at least one could be a
selfish
> > feckwit wherever he washed up athletically.
> >
> > Apologies to Trafford AC - a fine club making a fine
contribution,
> > particularly in T&F and in schools work.
> >
> > But :
> >
> > Rockcliffe is dead wrong to move the relays. This is damage.
> >
> > Rockcliffe is dead wrong to sponsor the idea of an exclusive tie
in
> > with
> > the club. This too is damage to our club and to individual
prospects.
> >
> > Couple of points of information :
> >
> > 1. Constitution says VPs vote on everything that concerns them
and
> > not on
> > other matters. Usually interpreted to include VPs secretary,
fixtures,
> > special events, constitutional change, awards.
> >
> > 2. Rockcliffe was plotting this change in secret from most VPs.
If I
> > hadn't happened on the information from a spy under deep cover
it is
> > hard
> > to say when it would have come out.
> >
> > Rumours :
> >
> > A. The Easter tour will henceforth be to the Isle of
Anglesey.
> > Because
> > (a) it is nearer and can be reached without a ferry (b) there
are less
> > beer-harriers and non-athletes (c) the courses will all be
different
> > (d)
> > 32 years of tradition has become stale and the event needs
freshening
> > up
> > (e) as it's R's idea and he is organising it it will be "a
better
> > event".
> >
> > B. Trafford's track is to be dug up and replaced with 3M's
latest
> > purple
> > and gold gunk. The existing maroon and white livery from Tartan
is
> > said to
> > be too redolent of a long lost university running team. Well done
Rockcliffe!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > idea - a catalyst for art and ideas
> >
> > http://www.idea.org.uk/archive
> > http://www.chapelstreet.org
> >
> > 07976 949853
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (2)
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
> > 2b. Re: Trafford AC - apologies
> > Posted by: "Paul Rockliffe" gravy@...
> > paulrockliffe2000
> > Date: Thu Aug 31, 2006 8:17 am (PDT)
> >
> > I do worry a bit that I'm repeating myself and others, but I
suppose
> > you've
> > earned a response with your latest diatribe. I'll keep it brief:
> >
> >
> >
> > 1. Regardless of your assertions Rockcliffe is no prime or
sole
> > mover
> > in this initiative and he is disappointed that the rest of the
present
> > membership and, especially Julia, seems to have escaped your
insults.
> >
> > 2. Your assertion that you are right and everyone else is
wrong
> > does
> > your credibility few favours. A few facts to back up your
statements
> > might
> > help perhaps?
> >
> > 3. Rockcliffe does not and never has endorsed any tie-ins
between the
> > University Athletics and Cross Country Club and any other
bodies, be it
> > athletic or other. Though he doesn't really see any issue with
the
> > kind of
> > arrangement you are assuming exists.
> >
> > 4. Rockcliffe would point you in the direction of
> > http://www.mmu.ac.uk/sport/view_details.php?record=5 and ask
for
> > comment?
> >
> > 5. Constitution states, and I quote,
> >
> >
> >
> > "Only present members of the Club shall be entitled to vote for
the
> > election
> > of Officers at the Meeting. Vice-presidents shall be eligible to
vote
> > on
> > matters concerning the constitution and other Vice-Presidents"
> >
> >
> >
> > It goes on to state that, "The Committee shall have the power to
deal
> > with
> > any matter not provided for in the Club's constitution. They
will
> > also be
> > the sole arbiters on any question involving the interpretation
of the
> > constitution, subject to approval of the University of
Manchester
> > Athletic
> > Union committee."
> >
> >
> >
> > So Rockcliffe feels that CP is perhaps getting above his station
in
> > telling
> > the Club how it is run and how it should interpret its
constitution.
> > Though he still stands by his assertion that the dissolution of
the
> > Athletic
> > Union prior to the recent merger with UMIST renders this
constitution
> > invalid.
> >
> >
> >
> > 6. Rockcliffe would like to know where he thinks his 'spy'
got
> > his
> > information from? If you're struggling to answer that one, it
was from
> > Rockcliffe. Neil Shuttleworth was made aware that the location
of the
> > relays was under consideration. We were not expecting an email
from
> > you the
> > next day and had plan to offer the idea for discussion in the
next few
> > days.
> > From your emails it is clear that you consider Rockcliffe, and
the
> > other
> > members of the Club Committee by association, to be an idiot,
but so
> > stupid
> > to keep this top-secret plan from the masses? Really?
> >
> > 7. Who is Rockcliffe?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > From: alehouse@yahoogroups.com [mailto:alehouse@yahoogroups.com]
On
> > Behalf
> > Of Chris Paul
> > Sent: 31 August 2006 14:47
> > To: alehouse@yahoogroups.com; whizzkidz@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [alehouse] Trafford AC - apologies
> >
> >
> >
> > Apologies to Trafford AC stalwarts like Dazza, Dr and Mrs
Tippy,
> > Franco,
> > Neil who are on the right side over relays. I did no mean to
suggest
> > that
> > everyone at Trafford is an idiot that wants to move the relay,
just
> > that
> > those that do want to move it happen to be newish members. This
is a
> > coincidence - I completely accept that at least one could be a
selfish
> > feckwit wherever he washed up athletically.
> >
> > Apologies to Trafford AC - a fine club making a fine
contribution,
> > particularly in T&F and in schools work.
> >
> > But :
> >
> > Rockcliffe is dead wrong to move the relays. This is damage.
> >
> > Rockcliffe is dead wrong to sponsor the idea of an exclusive tie
in
> > with
> > the club. This too is damage to our club and to individual
prospects.
> >
> > Couple of points of information :
> >
> > 1. Constitution says VPs vote on everything that concerns them
and not
> > on
> > other matters. Usually interpreted to include VPs secretary,
fixtures,
> > special events, constitutional change, awards.
> >
> > 2. Rockcliffe was plotting this change in secret from most VPs.
If I
> > hadn't happened on the information from a spy under deep cover
it is
> > hard
> > to say when it would have come out.
> >
> > Rumours :
> >
> > A. The Easter tour will henceforth be to the Isle of Anglesey.
Because
> > (a) it is nearer and can be reached without a ferry (b) there
are less
> > beer-harriers and non-athletes (c) the courses will all be
different
> > (d)
> > 32 years of tradition has become stale and the event needs
freshening
> > up
> > (e) as it's R's idea and he is organising it it will be "a
better
> > event".
> >
> > B. Trafford's track is to be dug up and replaced with 3M's
latest
> > purple
> > and gold gunk. The existing maroon and white livery from Tartan
is
> > said to
> > be too redolent of a long lost university running team. Well done
Rockcliffe!
> >
> > --
> > idea - a catalyst for art and ideas
> >
> > http://www.idea.org.uk/archive
> > http://www.chapelstreet.org
> >
> > 07976 949853
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (2)
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
> > 3. Re: Digest Number 1157
> > Posted by: "Chris Paul" idea@... idea500uk
> > Date: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:08 am (PDT)
> >
> > Dear Julia
> >
> > If you think that "and finally" directing me not to send a
letter to
> > AW is
> > a helpful idea or that you have any rights in that matter you
are very
> > much mistaken I'm afraid!
> >
> > You are also mistaken to assume that just because Rockcliffe is a
destructive maverick feckwit that I am one too. That is called
"projection".
> >
> > I have had dozens of letters published in all corners of the
press from
> > Cosmopolitan (yes really) to Computer World and I have yet to
submit
> > one
> > anywhere which caused the sort of own goal you are inferring.
> >
> > Your suggestion that there has been consultation on this is
laughable.
> > There has only been a debate because poor Rockcliffe's little
secret
> > popped out. To dress this up as if it were deliberate 'flashing'
is
> > utterly wrong, shameless and shameful. That is called "post
> > rationalisation".
> >
> > You are also wrong about VPs having or not a vote. The fecking
event
> > was
> > set up by fecking VPs woman! It has often been rescued and is
usually
> > assisted by VPs. And the 'missing' constitution allows a vote on
such
> > matters in any case!
> >
> > If Rockcliffe were trying to announce a total UDI in which VPs
are
> > eradicated and no longer welcome in our own club then he could
hardly
> > have
> > come up with a better strategy. Congratulations!
> >
> > Best wishes
> >
> > Chris P
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Messages in this topic (1)
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
_____________________________________________________________________ __
> > _
> >
> > ALEHOUSE ACADEMICALS - beer and 'athletics' in balance,
> > join us at http://www.onelist.com/subscribe.cgi/alehouse
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>










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http://www.idea.org.uk/archive
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07976 949853