Kevin,

I'd be glad to help as best I can on Medieval weapon art forms. I'm
sure a few folks on the list could help fill in the blanks...

--- Ken Pfrenger <cinaet@...> wrote:
> From: Ken Pfrenger <cinaet@...>
>
> Ok if we are going to do this we are going ,as Kevin
> suggested, to need to list
> who will/is available to do what.....so far we have
> :
>
> Kevin....Savate, la canne, boxe-francaise, zipota,
> chausson, foue,
>              conteau, larga, saca tripa, rasior,
> baton, lutte pariseinne, and
> panache
> Terry Brown....obvious some info on the EMA
> James....a piece on Spanish knives....I would
> imagine...but tell me if I am
> wrong
> Ken P(me) Collar and elbow wrestling and Faction
> fighting
>
> So who else is interested....a few more of you have
> shown an interest but have
> not stated what entry you would be interested in
> adding.....just let me know
> and i will put you down. There is sooooooo much more
> to go.
>
> Ken
>
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Kevin,

Great post, but more importantly, I hope your spouse is okay now. My
prayers and best wishes are yours....

Greg M.

--- "Kevin P. Menard" <savate@...> wrote:
> From: "Kevin P. Menard"
> <savate@...>
>
> having just spent the week at the hospital nursing a
> sick spouse, I am
> finally able to catch up with y'all.
>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> going through my digest collections, I seem to have
> everything so the
> problem isn't occurring with digest. Did you, per
> chance, ever get a look at
> that book on la canne you found? (hint: photocopies)
>
> Ken,
>
> I'm in. Maybe you should start collecting what areas
> we feel competent to
> post on? I can do Savate, la canne, boxe-francaise,
> zipota, chausson, foue,
> conteau, larga, saca tripa, rasior, baton, lutte
> pariseinne, and panache.
> We might want to also contact Tom Green at Texas A&M
> who is editing a
> encyclopedia of combative arts of the world.
>
> On Karate, Mongols, etc.
>
> Having studied both Koryu and modern styles, I think
> you also need to
> remember Karate is a system developed from the
> Okinawain arts for Japanese
> tastes with the emphasis on physical fitness. Also
> most modern arts are
> still affected by the militarism of the Meiji
> restoration. However, the
> experience of the samurai when they faced western
> duelists, like Portuguese
> officers, wasn't good.  Actually, one would expect
> that as the use of the
> katana has similarities to western longswords and
> the westerner would have
> an advantage that the samurai would not (having seen
> that type of weapon
> used before). This changed with time but by then
> Japan was closing its doors
> and westerners were carrying pistols. At some level,
> however it comes down
> to the man. I know I follow the western arts,
> despite holding teaching
> certificates in three eastern systems because it
> fits my cultural background
> better. There are ideals in the eastern arts that
> are very uncomfortable for
> me.
>
> And I am occasionally bigoted against eastern arts
> and overly prickly about
> Savate? You bet. Mainly because I am tired of every
> other visitor telling me
> Savate really comes from Thai, Filipino, Chinese,
> etc roots...Arrgh.
> However, I also know that each way can teach you to
> fight.
>
> As to the Mongols, the oppressors called the
> Teutonic Knights, and the
> Japanese: we are comparing apples to walruses. The
> defeat of the knights
> didn't put Russia under the Mongols as the fall of
> St. Daniel of Galicia did
> (Scott?) but it did keep them from taking over and
> selling the Slavs into
> slavery to the Moslems as they did to the
> Lithuanians. That was a calvary
> battle where the Japanese invasion required Mongols
> to take ships to Japan
> and then those divine winds kicked in. (According to
> Chinese writers,
> Mongols did not ship well by boat.)
>
> I had some other stuff but I forget. The Cardiac ICU
> is a lousy place to
> spend the week...
>
> Armado
> "Shing Yi chuan, Hoshinroshiryu jujitsu, Arnis, and
> Savate...the fast way to
> a multiple personality disorder"
>
>
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I really try to stay out of these, guys, but I think Chris has a fair
point:

> As I've said before, we shouldn't have to put down
> other cultures and their
> martial arts in order to feel that our arts are
> worthwhile. This only makes
> us look insecure. And there really should be no need
> for petty personal
> insults here.

This is a problem that WMA folks run into constantly, and we don profit
by returning the favor.

I think all we have the right to comment on are current trainig
practices vis a vis stated goals, regardless of art. I will comment
that many ryu seem more tradition bound that martially driven, and I
was recently taken to task for asking a kenjutsu student why they don't
spar. I kept getting responses about the traditional reaons, which I
understand, but my point was, it can be done safely now, so why don't
you? The answer was tradition, and the inner development being the key.
WHICH IS FINE, but doesn't that make it a 'do', not a 'jitsu?'

Now, I'm giving a real example of a coversation with a Japanese arts
practioner because it serves to illustrate my point. I think we can and
should question these sorts of issues, for the sake of discussion and
understanding, but I don't think we can make sweeping -- my art is
better than your art -- assertions.

Greg M.
Greg


--- Chris Thompson <gilbride100@...> wrote:
> From: "Chris Thompson" <gilbride100@...>
>
> Michael,
> I mentioned the "Scotch vs. Scottish" question only
> because Scottish people
> actually get offended sometimes when they are
> described as "Scotch." If you
> don't mind offending them, that's not my concern.
> Your knowledge of Japanese martial arts and history
> is limited. Karate ,for
> one thing, is not Japanese- it is Okinawan,which is
> now legally (but not
> culturally) part of Japan. Also, modern karate has
> nothing to do with
> ancient Japanese battlefield arts. These are
> represented by the Koryu, or
> "Old Schools", as I have described recently on this
> list. I do not believe
> it is fruitfull to claim sweeping superiority for
> one culture over
> another-that is arrogance. The medeival Japanese
> never met the medeival
> Europeans in battle, so noone can say what the
> outcome of such a battle
> would have been. They did both fight the Mongols,
> however, with very
> different results. The German Teutonic Knights were
> routed by Genghis Khans'
> Mongol army. The Mongols conquered much of Russia,
> and stayed there for
> hundreds of years. The Russians eventually did drive
> them out and reassert
> their independance. When Genghis' grandson Kublai
> Khan attempted an invasion
> of Japan, he was defeated- twice. In both cases, the
> coup de grace was
> delivered by a large storm, but only after the
> Samurai had kept them at bay
> for months, unable to establish a beach-head due to
> the fierce Japanese
> resistance. Of course, this does not prove the
> Japanese warriors superior to
> those of Europe.( I can sometimes beat "coach x" at
> my fencing club, for
> instance, and that coach often beats "coach y"- whom
> I have never been able
> to beat.) For some reason(s), the Japanese at that
> time were better able to
> resist that particular enemy than the Europeans
> were. But this, IMO, at
> least shows that there is little basis for
> considering Japanese arts
> inherantly "less realistic" or inferior to our own.
> As I've said before, we shouldn't have to put down
> other cultures and their
> martial arts in order to feel that our arts are
> worthwhile. This only makes
> us look insecure. And there really should be no need
> for petty personal
> insults here.
> Chris T
>
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Ken Pfrenger wrote:
>
> From: Ken Pfrenger <cinaet@...>
>
> Ok if we are going to do this we are going ,as Kevin suggested, to need to
list
> who will/is available to do what.....so far we have :
>
> Kevin....Savate, la canne, boxe-francaise, zipota, chausson, foue,
>              conteau, larga, saca tripa, rasior, baton, lutte pariseinne, and
> panache
> Terry Brown....obvious some info on the EMA
> James....a piece on Spanish knives....I would imagine...but tell me if I am
> wrong
> Ken P(me) Collar and elbow wrestling and Faction fighting

Ken,

If you're interested, I can handle basic european sword and shield, and
note it's evolution through armor types and various eras, advantages and
disadvantages of each weapon type and shield combination (great swords,
poleaxes, glaives, bills, and anchenpicks included) -- Morrigan knows
I've used 'em all at one time or another....

Jared

Peter

My glima training has been sparse and VERY informal.  My great-grandfather was
an immigrant from Denmark.  He picked up a little bit there and taught it to his
two grandsons (one being my father-- his own children were uninterested).  Other
than basic rules for a match and a few techniques, he really did not tell them a
whole lot.  He had become disillusioned with glima because he felt it stressed
brute strength over technique.  When I asked him, right before he died, what I
should do to become better at glima he said,"Lift weights."

I began researching glima AFTER I began participating in highland wrestling.
The two are very similar except for hand placement.

I am NOT an expert at glima.  As a matter of fact, everything I know has already
been described at "www.diku.dk/students/novice/glima2.html".  I do hope you get
Josephsson's book on the web, I am always searching for new info on glima.  BTW:
I enjoyed your article on the fight between glima and jujitsu!

PAX

Martin Grant

James....a piece on Spanish knives....I would imagine...but tell me if I am
wrong
Ken:
Yes.  I can also include salvavirgo and scissors as sidebars...

I'm not sure if I'd qualify as being knowledgeable enough but unless someone
better comes up I could deal with the Fairbairn/Sykes, Applegate et al. I'm
not sure if you'd wan't it on the encyclopedia though - is it just going to
be for the "ye olde" styles?  <JOKE>  ;-)

		 -----Original Message-----
		 From: Tony Wolf [mailto:lone_wolf_9@...]
		 Sent: 07 September 1999 13:17
		 To: western-arts@onelist.com
		 Subject: Re: [western-arts] Encyclopedia..sign up

		 From: "Tony Wolf" <lone_wolf_9@...>

		 Ken,

		 I'd like to contribute on stage/screen combat (peripheral, I
know, but often
		 the first exposure people have to WMA, especially
swordplay), perhaps also
		 historical European unarmed and dagger combat styles
(Talhoffer, Petter/de
		 Hooghe, Dei Liberi), something on the Parkyns manual,
whatever else comes to
		 mind.

		 Tony

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Ken,

I'd like to contribute on stage/screen combat (peripheral, I know, but often
the first exposure people have to WMA, especially swordplay), perhaps also
historical European unarmed and dagger combat styles (Talhoffer, Petter/de
Hooghe, Dei Liberi), something on the Parkyns manual, whatever else comes to
mind.

Tony

The moves I
>have used were ones I borrowed from Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, Sumo, and Glima.
  I
>would be very appreciative for any information you might have.
>
>Thanks in advance.
>
>Martin Grant

Martin - where do you draw your Glima training from?  I have done a lot of
work on researching this as of late, and am always looking for more info.
Hope you got to read the piece I posed here a week or so ago about Johanes
Josephsson's match of Glima vs. Ju Jitsu!  One of the first projects for
when I get my web-page up is to get Josephsson's book on Glima webbed...

As for the Encyclopedia - I'm in, no question!

Pete Kautz

First, regarding the Teutonic Order, it's a really great example of
how cultural perception changes over time.  Personally, I agree, and
loathe the schmucks.  As an historian, I can only see the differences
and how the participants were heralded as Crusaders all over
Christendom, the which authors found nothing wrong whatsoever with
suppressing some pagans... who were obviously not so happy about it.

Regarding encyclopedia, I could ask Csaba here if he wants to do a
short description and listing of his group, but he's not online.  If
I can EVER GET PHOTOS TAKEN AND DEVELOPED (grr,
longstanding comedy of errors), I can show principles of bow work
that were common in Eastern/Central Europe among the "nomadic"
peoples.  'dat's about it from Budapest.

Russell Mitchell
MA Program Assistant
Dept. of Medieval Studies
Central European University
H-1051 Budapest
Nádor u. 9, 4 em.
HUNGARY

Being a Pagan, I can never think of the Teutonic Knights without a shudder
of contempt. It's probably lucky for the Slavs that the Mongols did a number
on these chivalrous heroes.
Chris T

Dear Martin,
I only wish I did have info on Highland wrestling. Can anyone help here?
Chris T

Ok if we are going to do this we are going ,as Kevin suggested, to need to list
who will/is available to do what.....so far we have :

Kevin....Savate, la canne, boxe-francaise, zipota, chausson, foue,
              conteau, larga, saca tripa, rasior, baton, lutte pariseinne, and
panache
Terry Brown....obvious some info on the EMA
James....a piece on Spanish knives....I would imagine...but tell me if I am
wrong
Ken P(me) Collar and elbow wrestling and Faction fighting

So who else is interested....a few more of you have shown an interest but have
not stated what entry you would be interested in adding.....just let me know
and i will put you down. There is sooooooo much more to go.

Ken

> From: "Craig W. Carter" <craig1@...>
>
> Great idea . . . on minor fly in the ointment . . .
>
> The free web publishers are starting to seriously "data mine" visitors to
> sites on their services.
>
> Free hosts are fine, as long as you don't mind your visitors losing all
> vestagies of privacy and having their spam-mail count go through the roof.
>
> Just a thought.

And one worth having Craig.....anyone have a alternative? Are all of the free
sites doing this or just the bigger ones? A pay site is out of the question
right now but I would not to make the site a pain to visit....but then again
the subject matter might just be worth a little spam mail now and then.

Ken

I got a message back from onelist apologizing for my data loss and they said
they have corrected the problem....so while I saw all the posts and i presume
that most people did...there obviously was a loss somewhere and hopefully it is
taken care off.

Ken

Russell et. al.

There have been some good points on this thread.

I think in attempting to compare cultures like this, we forget the
difference between warfare and individual combat.  They both are similar,
in that they are both forms of conflict.  In warfare, though, one can
lose a certain amount of troups.  In warfare more so than individual
combat, however, there are all types of things that might win wars:
Technological advances:  iron vs bronze, having more calvalry, smart
bombs etc.
A generals decision on where to place his troups, where and when to
engage the enemy, when to push his troups hard and when to let them rest.

The troups morale (which may have more to do with the presence of women
in the area than anything to do with the conflict).
The intelligence one has of one's enemy.  The success of an enemy's
deceptions.
Weather and other 'acts of God'.
The financial and moral (for lack of a better word) support of the ruling
class.
And so on.  One can see some comparisons between war and individual
combat.  The point is, any cultural can find itself on the 'wrong end' of
any confluence of these and other issues that make up 'winning'.  As can
any individual.  (And, especially in todays world, the concept of
'winning' can be turned on its head: do you win the war but lose in the
court of public opinion or the criminal or civil courts?)  I believe the
true master takes all of these things ( weapons, strategy, morale,
inteligence etc.) into account, whether on a individual or collective
basis.

But war and combat can also be different.  The Japanese are perhaps an
example of similarlity of the two. For part of thier history, warfare
consisted (at least for the warrior class) of challenges for and of
individual combat.  Ancient Rome, on the other hand, prefected a waging
of war that minimized individual excellence in favor of troup discipline.

The moral of the story is, comparisons between cultures by looking at
battles (the Visigoths v. Romans, Japanese v. Mongols, Normans v.
Britons) is a historical undertaking that more often than not reveals
reason for success quite different than martial style.

There are people who believe that martial arts developed when people
stopped going to war, and so could concentrate on individual one against
one dueling. One could call this the "liesure time theory".  That is, the
martial arts were developed because one class had liesure time to do so.
I for one think this is an over-simplification.  It has the "they were in
the dark ages, we are enlightened" fallacy.  It very well may be,
however, that martial arts were only written about instructively, open to
public teaching (i.e. teaching to those who had not earned full trust by
being a member of your family, guild, etc.), etc. during a certain time
period .  I believe this to be much earlier than the enlightenment,
especially if we believe the liesure time theory.  We know during
medieval times, the upper class often paid their way out of conscription.
  So here is a class with leisure time on thier hands. Violence (as we
understand it today) was a part of the culture.  We know from history
that trial was by combat, and sometimes one could not buy thier way out
of that.  Therefore, thinking about martial technique *as* technique (and
training it as such) more than likely existed for much longer in Western
civilization than is usually credited.

I think these martial techniques were very close to self defense
techniques.  Looking a some of the older texts, one cannot escape this
conclusion: western (and perhaps all) martial techniques were developed
to defend against common attacks scenarios.  But then we also have, side
by side, martial sport.  I believe sports (and at times dancing, as
mentioned by someone on the list several months ago) served the task of
developing specific marital skills.  If one can wrestle without eye
gouging, for example, then one can incorporate gouging in a real
situation if needed.  One would have practiced all the other wrestling
skills and honed them, whereas if one allowed gouging and other "fouls",
then these skills may not be developed to the same degree.  And, of
course, one could not practice these eye gouging skills amoung one's clan
unit if you wanted your wrestling partner next to you to defend your
town.

The trouble western arts face is that these sports take on a life of
their own, and then say that they are the 'real thing'.  It becomes a
difficult task to sort through all the shaff to find the wheat.

I'm sure list members have sparred all sorts of ways.  One thing that
annoys me is when the sparring is "hands only", everyone seems to forget
about the legs.  They put themselves into position where they can be
kicked violently and taken down.  It doesn't make sense to put that into
your muscle memory.  But this is one of the ways sports developed: make a
rule, then everyone accomadates to that rule and not reality.  Make
another rule ...  One challenge that Western Martial artists have (and
meet on many occasions) is to recover the reality of the combat
situation.

Another problem, alluded to one this list before, is the problem of
creating a specialty fighting system.  Let's say I develop a technique
against a common attack that any ordianry unschooled person were to
throw.  Practicing it with my partners, they develop a defense against my
technique.  Soon, even outside of my circle, this defense becomes well
known.  Then we have to develop a counter for that defense.  Soon enough,
the martial school had more techniques against thier techniques than
against the common (un-schooled) attack.  This is part of our twentiteth
century reproduction of older martial traditions: seperating which was
primary, which was secondary, tertiary, etc?

But Western Martial artists also have the opposite problem: when someone
says 'well, I use double leg take downs, so I do Western Martial arts'.
Obviously, this theoretical person would have not developed any specialty
at all, and never challenges his own martial theory (i.e. what would an
opponent do to counter this, what would I do if someone tried a double
leg takedown on me?). The very nature of the word 'art' demands that we
maintain a balance between on simplicity on the one hand and
over-simplification on the other.

What does all this mean?  It means I have too much time on my hands
waiting for my laundry to get done on (U.S.) labor day.     I think the
encyclopedia is a grand idea.  I would include references (books,
people's emails, etc.) and as much historical documentation and specific
technique as possible.





On Mon, 6 Sep 1999 11:54:19 MET-1MEST "Russell Mitchell"
<Mitchell@...> writes:
>From: "Russell Mitchell" <Mitchell@...>
>
>Actually, the current topic has some merit for examining differences
>in training.  The Mongols were not unconquerable, no matter the job
>they did on Europe.  The Mongols were specialized for fighting in the
>open.  Several times they fought Hungarians and Poles at close
>quarters, say, at bridges or fortifications, and when they did so,
>they got stomped.  They also got their butts beaten down south
>towards India, too.  It is fortunate for the Japanese that their
>terrain is naturally very rugged.  The "Coach X" vs "Coach Y"
>illustration applies beautifully here.
>
>The Mongols had no native siege technology to speak of when
>assaulting major stone fortifications.  Every stone castle in central
>and Eastern Europe survived the invasion unscathed. Contrasting the
>responses of the Europeans and the Japanese point out a couple of
>significant differences in their training:
>
>Europeans trained with a greater range of hand-held weapons than did
>the Japanese.  The Japanese, while very specialized in the general
>cultural methods of their fighting, trained diligently with both
>archery, and in some cases with anti-archery techniques
>(arrow-cutting).  Instead of going this route, European fighters
>developed fantastic armor, to the point that, with the exception of
>very powerful bows such as the Mongol, Osmanli (Turkish), and
>"longbow," a well-armored warrior was effectively immune to arrow
>fire.  In Europe, to train as an archer meant that one was a
>specialist.  European archers were fantastically accurate, making
>shots with the crossbow and bow that sometimes leave the scholars
>reading the sources in shock and disbelievement.
>
>It all boils down, imho, to "what period" are you training for, and
>what were the specific weapons skills prized by the fighters of that
>location and era? If you're training for "Viking" warfare, you need
>to be good with a bow, at throwing javelins, and with both the spear
>and sword while fighting from a shield wall and individually.  If
>you're serious, you train for groups as well as solo.  Terry, with
>his English/British emphasis, could possibly do a combination
>longbow/close-quarters training if he liked, and he has peers there
>who drill with pike incessantly.  Training here in Hungary, I have to
>spread myself very wide to do justice to the six major cultures we
>had living here, which includes bow work.
>
>There's no one "Western" art.  There's no one Japanese art.  If we
>have somebody here who also is involved in koryu, it would be
>interesting for comparative purposes to contrast specific
>regions/periods to specific ryu.  That would help us understand the
>background of our work better than making generalizations.
>
>Russell Mitchell
>MA Program Assistant
>Dept. of Medieval Studies
>Central European University
>H-1051 Budapest
>Nádor u. 9, 4 em.
>HUNGARY
>
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having just spent the week at the hospital nursing a sick spouse, I am
finally able to catch up with y'all.


Hi Terry,

going through my digest collections, I seem to have everything so the
problem isn't occurring with digest. Did you, per chance, ever get a look at
that book on la canne you found? (hint: photocopies)

Ken,

I'm in. Maybe you should start collecting what areas we feel competent to
post on? I can do Savate, la canne, boxe-francaise, zipota, chausson, foue,
conteau, larga, saca tripa, rasior, baton, lutte pariseinne, and panache.
We might want to also contact Tom Green at Texas A&M who is editing a
encyclopedia of combative arts of the world.

On Karate, Mongols, etc.

Having studied both Koryu and modern styles, I think you also need to
remember Karate is a system developed from the Okinawain arts for Japanese
tastes with the emphasis on physical fitness. Also most modern arts are
still affected by the militarism of the Meiji restoration. However, the
experience of the samurai when they faced western duelists, like Portuguese
officers, wasn't good.  Actually, one would expect that as the use of the
katana has similarities to western longswords and the westerner would have
an advantage that the samurai would not (having seen that type of weapon
used before). This changed with time but by then Japan was closing its doors
and westerners were carrying pistols. At some level, however it comes down
to the man. I know I follow the western arts, despite holding teaching
certificates in three eastern systems because it fits my cultural background
better. There are ideals in the eastern arts that are very uncomfortable for
me.

And I am occasionally bigoted against eastern arts and overly prickly about
Savate? You bet. Mainly because I am tired of every other visitor telling me
Savate really comes from Thai, Filipino, Chinese, etc roots...Arrgh.
However, I also know that each way can teach you to fight.

As to the Mongols, the oppressors called the Teutonic Knights, and the
Japanese: we are comparing apples to walruses. The defeat of the knights
didn't put Russia under the Mongols as the fall of St. Daniel of Galicia did
(Scott?) but it did keep them from taking over and selling the Slavs into
slavery to the Moslems as they did to the Lithuanians. That was a calvary
battle where the Japanese invasion required Mongols to take ships to Japan
and then those divine winds kicked in. (According to Chinese writers,
Mongols did not ship well by boat.)

I had some other stuff but I forget. The Cardiac ICU is a lousy place to
spend the week...

Armado
"Shing Yi chuan, Hoshinroshiryu jujitsu, Arnis, and Savate...the fast way to
a multiple personality disorder"

Chris T., in your study of the highland martial arts, have you discovered any
information concerning techniques to be used for highland wrestling?  I have
participated in highland wrestling at various highland games, but I have never
run across anything in the way of formal technique or training.  The moves I
have used were ones I borrowed from Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, Sumo, and Glima.  I
would be very appreciative for any information you might have.

Thanks in advance.

Martin Grant

Actually, the current topic has some merit for examining differences
in training.  The Mongols were not unconquerable, no matter the job
they did on Europe.  The Mongols were specialized for fighting in the
open.  Several times they fought Hungarians and Poles at close
quarters, say, at bridges or fortifications, and when they did so,
they got stomped.  They also got their butts beaten down south
towards India, too.  It is fortunate for the Japanese that their
terrain is naturally very rugged.  The "Coach X" vs "Coach Y"
illustration applies beautifully here.

The Mongols had no native siege technology to speak of when
assaulting major stone fortifications.  Every stone castle in central
and Eastern Europe survived the invasion unscathed. Contrasting the
responses of the Europeans and the Japanese point out a couple of
significant differences in their training:

Europeans trained with a greater range of hand-held weapons than did
the Japanese.  The Japanese, while very specialized in the general
cultural methods of their fighting, trained diligently with both
archery, and in some cases with anti-archery techniques
(arrow-cutting).  Instead of going this route, European fighters
developed fantastic armor, to the point that, with the exception of
very powerful bows such as the Mongol, Osmanli (Turkish), and
"longbow," a well-armored warrior was effectively immune to arrow
fire.  In Europe, to train as an archer meant that one was a
specialist.  European archers were fantastically accurate, making
shots with the crossbow and bow that sometimes leave the scholars
reading the sources in shock and disbelievement.

It all boils down, imho, to "what period" are you training for, and
what were the specific weapons skills prized by the fighters of that
location and era? If you're training for "Viking" warfare, you need
to be good with a bow, at throwing javelins, and with both the spear
and sword while fighting from a shield wall and individually.  If
you're serious, you train for groups as well as solo.  Terry, with
his English/British emphasis, could possibly do a combination
longbow/close-quarters training if he liked, and he has peers there
who drill with pike incessantly.  Training here in Hungary, I have to
spread myself very wide to do justice to the six major cultures we
had living here, which includes bow work.

There's no one "Western" art.  There's no one Japanese art.  If we
have somebody here who also is involved in koryu, it would be
interesting for comparative purposes to contrast specific
regions/periods to specific ryu.  That would help us understand the
background of our work better than making generalizations.

Russell Mitchell
MA Program Assistant
Dept. of Medieval Studies
Central European University
H-1051 Budapest
Nádor u. 9, 4 em.
HUNGARY

Michael,
I sent off my last post before reading your apology. If I said anything you
consider disrespectfull, I also apologize.
Chris T

to everyone,
as Ken requested, I will stop discussing this topic. But don't worry, I'm
not going to get disgruntled.
Chris T

Michael,
I mentioned the "Scotch vs. Scottish" question only because Scottish people
actually get offended sometimes when they are described as "Scotch." If you
don't mind offending them, that's not my concern.
Your knowledge of Japanese martial arts and history is limited. Karate ,for
one thing, is not Japanese- it is Okinawan,which is now legally (but not
culturally) part of Japan. Also, modern karate has nothing to do with
ancient Japanese battlefield arts. These are represented by the Koryu, or
"Old Schools", as I have described recently on this list. I do not believe
it is fruitfull to claim sweeping superiority for one culture over
another-that is arrogance. The medeival Japanese never met the medeival
Europeans in battle, so noone can say what the outcome of such a battle
would have been. They did both fight the Mongols, however, with very
different results. The German Teutonic Knights were routed by Genghis Khans'
Mongol army. The Mongols conquered much of Russia, and stayed there for
hundreds of years. The Russians eventually did drive them out and reassert
their independance. When Genghis' grandson Kublai Khan attempted an invasion
of Japan, he was defeated- twice. In both cases, the coup de grace was
delivered by a large storm, but only after the Samurai had kept them at bay
for months, unable to establish a beach-head due to the fierce Japanese
resistance. Of course, this does not prove the Japanese warriors superior to
those of Europe.( I can sometimes beat "coach x" at my fencing club, for
instance, and that coach often beats "coach y"- whom I have never been able
to beat.) For some reason(s), the Japanese at that time were better able to
resist that particular enemy than the Europeans were. But this, IMO, at
least shows that there is little basis for considering Japanese arts
inherantly "less realistic" or inferior to our own.
As I've said before, we shouldn't have to put down other cultures and their
martial arts in order to feel that our arts are worthwhile. This only makes
us look insecure. And there really should be no need for petty personal
insults here.
Chris T

Great idea . . . on minor fly in the ointment . . .

The free web publishers are starting to seriously "data mine" visitors to
sites on their services.

Free hosts are fine, as long as you don't mind your visitors losing all
vestagies of privacy and having their spam-mail count go through the roof.

Just a thought.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                         Craig W. Carter
                         ---------------
          |\      _,,,---,,_
    PRrrr /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_    Email: craig1@...
         |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
        '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Also missing posts once in awhile

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
                         Craig W. Carter
                         ---------------
          |\      _,,,---,,_
    PRrrr /,`.-'`'    -.  ;-;;,_    Email: craig1@...
         |,4-  ) )-,_. ,\ (  `'-'
        '---''(_/--'  `-'\_)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

hello All,
    to  Ken and all the other's  on the list i appologize to Chris he know's
where i stand. i'll try to be a more level headed.
        Michael

Howdie list,

This reasons query elicted just the kind of response I had hoped for....it's
nice
to know others are drawn for some of the same reasons whether it be looking into
the arts of their ancestors or just a love of history and other cultures in
general...or perhaps myth and legend.....I suppose for many of us it is a bit of
all these.

I would ask that Chris and Michael take this argument no further on this
list....Michael obviously feels he was treated rudely and Chris will obviously
feel the same way when he reads his mail....Compared to other groups we are such
a
small community we really can't afford to have disgruntled people leave....there
are only 94 of us on this list. This list and a few other ones and a feww forums
on the net are the only real place we have to discuss these topic among
ourselves.
We really can't afford to pollute any of these resources with this kind of
thing.

Terry....sorry to hear you are missing posts....i checked with onelist and they
are suppossed to be sending me an answer on how this could be....if anyone else
is
having problems let me know and I will do what i can to fix them.

Ken
listowner

My genuine apologies to the 'combatants' in this particular thread:).
And my earnest explanation for my intrusion: Which is this; several
times I have noted posts to this group which are obviously referring to
a previous communication. Unfortunately, it seems that some posts are
not arriving at my e-mail address. Consequently, I am coming in half-way
through the discussion (which is exremely frustrating). Am I the only
member of this newsgroup experiencing this problem? If not, can other
subscribers please post in and confirm they are suffering similar
'information starvation'! If no one else is suffering this problem can
the moderator or mesage group admimistrator advise me as to what is
going wrong? Once again my genuine apologies to the folk involved in
this thread, its just that it seemed the ideal time to mention this
problem.
Best wishes,
Terry Brown,
Company of Maisters
>From: BadBoyWTpa@...
>
>
>
>    "Chris",
>  1. i think everyone knew what i meant, if i like i will shorten the name to
>save typing.
>  2. take for example the legion's of Rome or the conquistador's, how many
>different cutlers' did they conquer, there experience compared to the
>Japanese who
>only fought other men that fought as they did have no where the battle
>experience take a traditional karate block against a hook, uppercut or cross
>and it's useless, because no one outside Japan throw's a reverse punch. I
>have studied both Japanese and western art's and that is my opinion.
>  3. you sound very arrogant, so for all I care you can kiss my ass.
>          Have a good one,
>              Michael
>
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>------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
terrybrown

"Chris",
   1. i think everyone knew what i meant, if i like i will shorten the name to
save typing.
   2. take for example the legion's of Rome or the conquistador's, how many
different cutlers' did they conquer, there experience compared to the
Japanese who
only fought other men that fought as they did have no where the battle
experience take a traditional karate block against a hook, uppercut or cross
and it's useless, because no one outside Japan throw's a reverse punch. I
have studied both Japanese and western art's and that is my opinion.
   3. you sound very arrogant, so for all I care you can kiss my ass.
           Have a good one,
               Michael

Hello Ken,
         I think your suggestion is excellent. A single directory for the
Western martial arts will do much to take them forward in the next
millenium. Please count the Company of Maisters in.
Best wishes,
Terry Brown
--
terrybrown

Ken,
Re: Online Encyclopeadia
I'm In!

James