Um, now that you mentioned Fiore dagger, I noticed a while ago that
in Fiore's dagger section, there is a definite grouping of related
techniques, but it seems to be a mixture of grouping by defense (grab
with both hands, cross block,...) and groupings by attack (downward
stab, lapel hold,...)

Now the unarmed one-hand techniques against the downward stab are
split in a first group where you take the inside line, and a second
group where you take the outside line to defend. The obvious
explanation is that they are thus sorted because of different
principles (inside vs outside). However it occurred to me that they
could also have been split by attacks to your high left side in the
first group, and attacks to your high right side in the second group.
I prefer this interpretation because in that case it presents a
single principle applied to different attacks (the basic move in the
second set being the mirror image of the one in the first set). Also
in that case the first group of dagger defenses are against attacks
to the first opening (in the German 4 openings system).

However I don't see anything in the text that would favour one
interpretation over the other. I would be very interested to know
your opinion on the groupings.

Eli.

dear craig, carl has some info on that, give me time to dig it up--ralph


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Not including a few very expensive older pieces, the only
> sword cane I have
> seen that I liked, and bought, actually has a foil type blade
> inside.

Atlanta Cutlery sells some Sword-Canes.  One has a full length rapier
blade.

Peace favor your sword
  ---
"In these modern times, many men are wounded for not having weapons or
knowledge of their use."
  -Achille Marozzo, 1536

Thanks Bob ,

The more references we can get the better , hopefully Gianluca and others
will discover additional info about this guard .


Craig G


>From: "stmartinsacademy" <bcharron@...>
>Reply-To: western-arts@yahoogroups.com
>To: western-arts@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [western-arts] Re: Passchens crucifix guard
>Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2004 13:41:32 -0000
>
>Craig,
>
>Fiore's dagger gards include this position, and it is my opinion (for
>what it's worth) that this is the section of his treatise that deals
>with striking and counter-striking.
>
>You would have to ask Gianluca, but it may also appear in some form
>in Box Libera.
>
>Jerry Gilliland and I have been experimenting with it, and properly
>applied we can certainly see its potential. I'd be interesting to
>find what you folks on this list are able to find out about employing
>it, as you are much accomplished in the striking arts than I am.
>
>All the best,
>
>Bob Charron
>
>--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, "craig gemeiner" <ozsavate@h...>
>wrote:
> > The X or crucifix guard (for want of a better term ) used by
>Passchens is
> > mentioned in Ned Beaumont's book "The savage Science of Street
>Fighting " on
> > page 119 its mentioned ( and accompanied with a drawing) as being
>used by
> > Freddie Mills and a few other crouch fighters , Ned also writes
>that this
> > guard was favored by a talented light heavy weight British boxer
>named  Len
> > Harvey .
> >
> > I have searched for several years attempting (unsuccessfully) to
>find a
> > reference to this guard in older boxing manuals - has any one
>information
> > about this guard in regards to its use in Western boxing ????.
> >
> > All the best ,
> > Craig G
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> > http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp
>

_________________________________________________________________
Personalise your phone with chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp

Craig,

Fiore's dagger gards include this position, and it is my opinion (for
what it's worth) that this is the section of his treatise that deals
with striking and counter-striking.

You would have to ask Gianluca, but it may also appear in some form
in Box Libera.

Jerry Gilliland and I have been experimenting with it, and properly
applied we can certainly see its potential. I'd be interesting to
find what you folks on this list are able to find out about employing
it, as you are much accomplished in the striking arts than I am.

All the best,

Bob Charron

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, "craig gemeiner" <ozsavate@h...>
wrote:
> The X or crucifix guard (for want of a better term ) used by
Passchens is
> mentioned in Ned Beaumont's book "The savage Science of Street
Fighting " on
> page 119 its mentioned ( and accompanied with a drawing) as being
used by
> Freddie Mills and a few other crouch fighters , Ned also writes
that this
> guard was favored by a talented light heavy weight British boxer
named  Len
> Harvey .
>
> I have searched for several years attempting (unsuccessfully) to
find a
> reference to this guard in older boxing manuals - has any one
information
> about this guard in regards to its use in Western boxing ????.
>
> All the best ,
> Craig G
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
> http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp

Is the Indian stick style of silambam similar to English staff?  The site below
has a video.

/www.silambam.com/


OSU!
Jason McIntyre, sensei
Tsunami Karatejitsu Dojo




















---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > This one is a little tricky. My first question to Eli/Stefan is
> > whether or not it's definitely "Strong of your arms" or "Strong of
> > your arm".

"die starcke deiner arm"

The X or crucifix guard (for want of a better term ) used by Passchens is
mentioned in Ned Beaumont's book "The savage Science of Street Fighting " on
page 119 its mentioned ( and accompanied with a drawing) as being used by
Freddie Mills and a few other crouch fighters , Ned also writes that this
guard was favored by a talented light heavy weight British boxer named  Len
Harvey .

I have searched for several years attempting (unsuccessfully) to find a
reference to this guard in older boxing manuals - has any one information
about this guard in regards to its use in Western boxing ????.

All the best ,
Craig G

_________________________________________________________________
Personalise your mobile chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to
http://ringtones.com.au/ninemsn/control?page=/ninemsn/main.jsp

Ciao a tutti,

This is a very intriguing topic. Arturo Perez Reverte tells mirably Astarloa's
skill with bastone animato.
Apart literary suggestions of one of my favourite author, the sword-cane provide
a unique method of street fighting, effective for its paired-weapon
manoeuvres.It was tricky enough to surprise an ordinary aggressor.
I do not know of instruction about it. I think nobody was interest to spread
this instructions between common people.
Then who carried the sword-cane, was probably enough familiar with blade and
stick fencing to integrate easily in a personal method tricks and paired weapon
counters.One nice trick, when possible, is to make your aggressor believe he can
disarm you by a stick hold, while he is drawing you cane to pass in a two-hands
grip, your blade will be out and the point to close for any possible defence.
Another trick, when possible, take  a high guard, holding the stick with two
hands over the shoulder, your opponent think he has to counter a single weapon,
but contemporary one hand will strike with the cane the other will draw out the
blade

Interestingly the bastone-animato carry still exist in the Italian law. One of
my student requested it  to the police recently.
Virtually is possible because this law is very old, (and it will be probably
revise one day), in practise it is not easy, but if you proof, by the way of ex,
you live or work in unsure places and then you also have good reasons to choose
a stick rather than a gun, or whatever else.... One could have some walking
problem...

First time we met, this guy showed me a beautiful bastone animato and said he
found it between his father's old things under the roof at home, and he was
inspired to take up a stick fencing school by this discover.
The stick is very particular, pear-shaped pommel, "pressure lock", 60cm inlaid
sabre blade, where it written Toledo 1886, the name of the Spanish Master-craft(
I have no material under my eye at the moment). From a little research this
Spanish Craft had a factory in Buenos Aires, my student found even the address.
A court of arm is show on the blade, which has something to do with Spanish
freemansory. If you like I could make some pictures, and ask for help in the
research.
We have some fellows from brazil?
thanks for any help in advance.


my best

Gianluca
Sala d'armi Brixia






[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Stuart McDermid" <s_j_mc@...>
To: <western-arts@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 5:06 PM
Subject: [western-arts] Re: Passchen Discussion Lets go!


> No.9 *IS* obvious but I don't think we shoudl gloss over it. In
> certain styles of Jujutsu and Taijutsu, such a posture is used to
> advance on the enemy. The cross arms stucture allows you to keep a
> very compact centreline guard whilst allowing for strong edge of hand
> blows against incoming blows. Passchen only shows this posture
> against flying objects but doesn't tell us how to close with an
> opponent who is unarmed.
>
> I teach this posture as Passchen's general fighting guard as it is
> wonderful for throwing damaging strikes.

Excellent point. Sometimes the plate that seem to have the least to offer
show more about the style than any other in the manual. One of the good
things about going through a manual in this fashion. I had always glossed
over this plate but Stu's post made me look at it a different way. 800+ pair
of eyes are definitely more likely to pick up on things better than just one
pair.

I have been called almost needy in the past because I always ask for
opinions...it's not that I don't trust my own judgement but why rely on it
alone when you don't have to?

>
>
> > No. 10 starts with a background question: Why would one grasp an
> >opponent crosswise?
>
> Because it gives you alot of leverage for picking someone up and
> driving them backwards providing you can get a good grip on their
> jacket. Alternatively Passchen may well have just been trying to
> be "complete" in his teachings. Ken's point about the choke is a
> possibility although this is not a great move when standing.

Most definitely more effective on the ground but Parkynsdoes do it from a
standing position....but considering Parkyns was a totally standup style
where else would he have done it?:)

>
> The move itself is fairly obvious.
>
> So, moving on, we have 11.
>
> This one is a little tricky. My first question to Eli/Stefan is
> whether or not it's definitely "Strong of your arms" or "Strong of
> your arm".
>
> This looks to me to be a matter of putting your hand on your hip and
> ripping your arm away. The plate is quite confusing as it doesn't
> seem to match the text. The guy in the plate looks to be using his
> left elbow. If we assume the plate isn't wrong then perhaps the hand
> is actually on the right hip and the body has been swung so that the
> elbow now lies outside the offender's right hand ready to dislodge it.
> Definitely confusing and I'm not sure we can know for sure what the
> deal is here.

I agree....confusing but i do believe the elbow is used to dislodge the
grab. This is how we have done it and it works incredibly well.

>
> The rest of the plates in this first part are simple leverages
> against the grabber's thumb. I doen't think they require much
> discussion.
>
> What does everyone think?

I agree although I would have glossed over #9 so keep that in mind:-)

Ken

Not including a few very expensive older pieces, the only sword cane I have seen
that I liked, and bought, actually has a foil type blade inside.  It is made in
France and I actually bought it and a few years earlier at the same place, a
sword umbrella with the same blade.  A purely point weapon it is not something I
would want to try to parry a heavy blade with.  But odds are, with this sort of
weapon, it is very unlikely that you would be using it against another sword. 
More likely someone with a knife or club, etc...

Incidentally, pre 9/11 I actually came home on a plane with that sword-umbrella.
It passed through three different XRAY machines!  Don't anyone try this now, I
was  very foolish to have done it and at least mildly unaware of what a big, bad
no no that was even then.

Sorry, I don't remember the name of the store in Paris, but I am pretty sure it
is still there on the main center street of the Isle St. Louis (They are better
known for their amazing marionettes.)  Interestingly, they also had a cane made
of small sections of what looked to be bone but with a flexible steel rod core. 
This was before I had ever heard of La Canne.  I got the umbrella on my first
trip to Paris, saw it in the window and just said, "well, now that is what
credit cards are for!"  It was pretty cool to wander the streets of the
Musketeers with a discreet sword at my side.  Ok, there was a little Avengers
music playing, too.

Just a tidbit while the subject is on the board.

Cheers,
John Woodruff
Albion Schoole of Defense


"Morgan Shea@Rainbow DT" <blackleaf7@...> wrote:
Good Question:
Also I have not seen a commercial sword cane that I would want to put edge
to edge with anything

Cheers
Morgan Shea
theIFDG.com


On 3/5/04 4:03 PM, "lone_wolf_92001" wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> has anyone ever seen instructions for sword-cane fighting? I'm
> assuming that, because they were (and are) generally illegal, no-one
> would risk publishing on the subject. On the other hand, the
> fighting style itself - relatively short, slim, guardless blade + the
> cane itself in the other hand - is intriguing, especially if it was
> mostly intended for practical use against street weapons, rather than
> as a fencing sport.
>
> BTW, we have an essay on the French "Apache" street-fighters coming
> out at EJMAS soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> Unsubscribe:
> western-arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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Good Question:
Also I have not seen a commercial sword cane that I would want to put edge
to edge with anything

Cheers
     Morgan Shea
     theIFDG.com


On 3/5/04 4:03 PM, "lone_wolf_92001" <lone_wolf_9@...> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> has anyone ever seen instructions for sword-cane fighting? I'm
> assuming that, because they were (and are) generally illegal, no-one
> would risk publishing on the subject. On the other hand, the
> fighting style itself - relatively short, slim, guardless blade + the
> cane itself in the other hand - is intriguing, especially if it was
> mostly intended for practical use against street weapons, rather than
> as a fencing sport.
>
> BTW, we have an essay on the French "Apache" street-fighters coming
> out at EJMAS soon.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Tony
>
>
>
> Unsubscribe:
> western-arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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> click.net/jump/N3349.yahoo1/B1282054.27;abr=!ie4;abr=!ie5;sz=300x250;code=1863
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>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi all,

has anyone ever seen instructions for sword-cane fighting? I'm
assuming that, because they were (and are) generally illegal, no-one
would risk publishing on the subject. On the other hand, the
fighting style itself - relatively short, slim, guardless blade + the
cane itself in the other hand - is intriguing, especially if it was
mostly intended for practical use against street weapons, rather than
as a fencing sport.

BTW, we have an essay on the French "Apache" street-fighters coming
out at EJMAS soon.

Cheers,

Tony

The Exiles are presenting a one-day workshop on Sunday 4 April 2004 at
Barking, London. This will exclusively concentrate on the martial system of
Fiore dei Liberi, who lived in northern Italy and was active circa 1360 to
1410.
This is the fourth in a series of workshops, for 2003/2004, covering the
system of Fiore dei Liberi and is the second of two in-depth presentations
on the dagger section of one of the most complete and integrated historical
martial systems surviving from medieval/renaissance Europe. The workshop is
open to all, including those who have been unable to attend previous
workshops.

The Exiles are recognised as one of the leading practitioners of this
detailed system and the unarmed section is the basis behind rest of the
Fiore system - including dagger, single sword and two handed sword work.

Topics covered come from the Daga (Dagger) section of Fiore’s work and will
include:

- The Posta (fighting positions)
- Basic footwork and body alignment
- Dagger Strikes
- Dagger Counters
- Locks & Binds
- Grappling & Throws
- Distance & Entry techniques, including “bridging the gap”

This workshop will cover the last five Masters of Daga.

The content will be applicable to those with either an historical interest
or those who wish to learn the modern applicability of this system.

The day will be broken into 4 sessions, with intervals, between 10am and 5pm
and will cost £25 per person. Those who attended the previous workshop will
be offered a £5 discount.

Places have been limited, so pre-booking is required. Participants will be
entitled to a discount to future workshops, which will continue concentrate
on specific aspects of Fiore's system.

For further details or a booking form please contact:

Mark Lancaster
Secretary
The Exiles www.the-exiles.org
secretary@...

_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself with cool new emoticons http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/myemo

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <s.dieke@f...>
wrote:
> I've been asked to translate Meyer for a dozens of times. But I
can't. Most of
> the ambiguities get lost, new may appear. So what it would result
in would be
> my interpretation of his work presented in english.

Why is that so bad? People who don't understand German very well, if
given the choice between going by the pictures only and running the
transcription through babelfish, or having also your biased
translation, will probably prefer the translation regardless of bias.

If you wait until you are certain of your interpretation, there will
be no translation in your lifetime, or more likely someone else will
get fed up with people begging for a translation and beat you to it,
you will disagree with all their interpretations, and a very
interesting discussion will develop...

That said, your transcription work is of course greatly appreciated.

> > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Hi Everyone,

> No. 9 is obvious, isn't it?

No.9 *IS* obvious but I don't think we shoudl gloss over it. In
certain styles of Jujutsu and Taijutsu, such a posture is used to
advance on the enemy. The cross arms stucture allows you to keep a
very compact centreline guard whilst allowing for strong edge of hand
blows against incoming blows. Passchen only shows this posture
against flying objects but doesn't tell us how to close with an
opponent who is unarmed.

I teach this posture as Passchen's general fighting guard as it is
wonderful for throwing damaging strikes.


> No. 10 starts with a background question: Why would one grasp an
>opponent crosswise?

Because it gives you alot of leverage for picking someone up and
driving them backwards providing you can get a good grip on their
jacket. Alternatively Passchen may well have just been trying to
be "complete" in his teachings. Ken's point about the choke is a
possibility although this is not a great move when standing.

The move itself is fairly obvious.

So, moving on, we have 11.

This one is a little tricky. My first question to Eli/Stefan is
whether or not it's definitely "Strong of your arms" or "Strong of
your arm".

This looks to me to be a matter of putting your hand on your hip and
ripping your arm away. The plate is quite confusing as it doesn't
seem to match the text. The guy in the plate looks to be using his
left elbow. If we assume the plate isn't wrong then perhaps the hand
is actually on the right hip and the body has been swung so that the
elbow now lies outside the offender's right hand ready to dislodge it.
Definitely confusing and I'm not sure we can know for sure what the
deal is here.

The rest of the plates in this first part are simple leverages
against the grabber's thumb. I doen't think they require much
discussion.

What does everyone think?
Cheers,
Stu.

As an FYI (after my initial enjoyment of the thread...) Yahoo has
decided to deliver messages haphazardly again, so I'll be going back
through the archives and seeing where everyone is at. I haven't
disappeared!

Roger

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, " Ken Pfrenger" <kenpfrenger@n...
> wrote:
>
>
> No. 9 is obvious, isn't it?
>
> *absolutely*
>
> No. 10 starts with a background question: Why would one grasp an
opponent
> crosswise?
>
> *It is kinda hard to see exactly where the grab is taking place here
in this
> plate. Either on the lapel or the upper arms. It also looks like the
grab is
> with both arms..one reason to grab crosswise like this on a collar
or lapel
> is to use the garment for a choke. Common in Japanes systems but
parkyns
> talks about this as well in his Close-Hugg manual so there is a
western ref
> to this.
>
> A cross rab on an upper arm with a single hand can cause a turning
of the
> body to take place. For instnace my right hand grabs your right
upper arm
> and I give a pull, this shoulld turn your upper body with a twist to
your
> left giving an opportunity for several actions on my part....but I
really
> can't say for sure what the purpose of the cross grab is here in
this
> plate...just some speculation, not directly related.
>
> Ken
>
> > > > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

No. 9 is obvious, isn't it?

*absolutely*

No. 10 starts with a background question: Why would one grasp an opponent
crosswise?

*It is kinda hard to see exactly where the grab is taking place here in this
plate. Either on the lapel or the upper arms. It also looks like the grab is
with both arms..one reason to grab crosswise like this on a collar or lapel
is to use the garment for a choke. Common in Japanes systems but parkyns
talks about this as well in his Close-Hugg manual so there is a western ref
to this.

A cross rab on an upper arm with a single hand can cause a turning of the
body to take place. For instnace my right hand grabs your right upper arm
and I give a pull, this shoulld turn your upper body with a twist to your
left giving an opportunity for several actions on my part....but I really
can't say for sure what the purpose of the cross grab is here in this
plate...just some speculation, not directly related.

Ken

> > > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Hi Eli,

> If I had made a transcription then people like you could have cast
> doubts on my infallible writings, and even lead other poor souls into
> the error of heresy...

Bad, bad me. Fortunately the old tradition of burning heretics is over - at
least in this part of the world.

> "16. wenn du mit deinem fingern zwishen adversarii finger kommen
> kanst/so drucke ihm seine hande zurucke/alsdann muss er sich auff die
> knie setzen/wie n 8 zeiget/oder drehe ihn seine finger auswerts so
> werden sie sich verrencten." or something like that, the text is
> quite smudgy in places.

Yes, that's damn precisely saying 'between the fingers'. Sorry for causing
trouble and thank you for the extra service.

> Order it anyway, and then you can translate Durer or von Auerswald
> for us :)

I've been asked to translate Meyer for a dozens of times. But I can't. Most of
the ambiguities get lost, new may appear. So what it would result in would be
my interpretation of his work presented in english. That's what I'm working
on anyway (the rapier stuff) but as my general understanding of fencing grows
my interpretation has changed here and there over the years. And of course I
want to write the definitive book on this subject. I'm still curious if I
will ever reach that point.

I'm more of a transcriber.
http://www.freifechter.org/cgi-bin/FFshwcls.pl/fechtbuecher/fechtbuecher1_2
has a number of transcriptions of german treatises. Some of them also deal
with Ott's wrestling.

I had a look at Auerswald, but first it has to be interpreted, than ordered in
the sense of a system, than reinterpreted and so on. This would be very
interesting, but I lack the time for such a thorough work. There's really
good stuff in it but it the order of the techniques seem as if they have been
shuffled. It's not as nicely ordered as Paschen. Or it's just too much for me
to overview the whole concept.

Dürer is said to have copied from Codex Wallerstein. (I can only judge the
dagger part and there this statement's not true.) But if it's true for the
wrestling section, than a translation is available in Bart Walzacks 'Codex
Wallerstein' from Paladin-Press.

Cheers,

Stefan
> http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Ok,

since the text is precise about 'between the fingers' it has to be the plate
which is unprecise. BTW, is the 'Chronik alter Kampfkünste' the original sice
of Paschen's work? It seemd to me that the page size had been reduced for the
'Chronik'.
Drawing-wise the plates don't seem bad to me. But propably the illustrator did
not care too much for what the text says.

So, let's move on.

No. 9 is obvious, isn't it?

No. 10 starts with a background question: Why would one grasp an opponent
crosswise?

Stefan


> > >The plate doesn't show the fingers between those of the adversarius.
> > >To make the opponent go down I would have to push the fingers
> > >backwards and upwards and pull his hand towards me and downwards.
> >
> > Well it might. That plate is drawn pretty badly and the text
> > certainly supports the interpretation that the fingers are
> > interlocked.
> > Cheers,
> > Stu.
> >
> > > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm
>
> Yes, the artwork leaves much to be desired in this manual! I agree with Stu
> babout the te4xt but don't really see this in the plate but I do believe
> that is due to the low skill of te artist more than anything else.
>
> Slán
> Ken
>
>
>
> Unsubscribe:
> western-arts-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

>
> >The plate doesn't show the fingers between those of the adversarius.
> >To make the opponent go down I would have to push the fingers
> >backwards and upwards and pull his hand towards me and downwards.
>
> Well it might. That plate is drawn pretty badly and the text
> certainly supports the interpretation that the fingers are
> interlocked.
> Cheers,
> Stu.
>
> > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Yes, the artwork leaves much to be desired in this manual! I agree with Stu
babout the te4xt but don't really see this in the plate but I do believe
that is due to the low skill of te artist more than anything else.

Slán
Ken

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, "ulfberth" <ulfberth@y...> wrote:
> werden sie sich verrencten." or something like that, the text is

Oops typo: verrencken of course. That's what you get by typing while
holding a book up to your nose with one hand...

> > http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Hi Stefan,

You wrote.
>Hmm, I don't see a hammerfist in 4. To me the fingers are visible so
>they are extended and the blow is delivered with the edge of the
>hand.

I wasn't certain about this myself. It actually looks like a half
folded fist to me. Maybe it is a "cupped hand blow"?

Stefan also said
>it's more horizontal in 4 and more vertical in 7. For me this
>results from the degree in which the opponents arms are turned. In 4
>the elbow points outside while the inner joint is inside thus its a
>more horizontal blow. In 7 the elbow points downwards, the inner
>joint is upwards, the blow comes vertical.

Absolutely. Also, when you take a grip of someone with your arm
extended, the elbow turns outwards unless you force it to do
otherwise. When at closer range the elbow sits under. Hence to choice
of blow is also a function of gripping distance.

> The handedge blow also seems to be more effective since it lands on
>a smaller surface and doesn't hinder the elbow to bend as much as a
>fist would.

Agree completely. An edge of hand or palm blow is always better than
a fist IMHO.

>But let's see what Paschen suggests.

He doesn't seem to suggest very much at all.....ever.:-)

>The plate doesn't show the fingers between those of the adversarius.
>To make the opponent go down I would have to push the fingers
>backwards and upwards and pull his hand towards me and downwards.

Well it might. That plate is drawn pretty badly and the text
certainly supports the interpretation that the fingers are
interlocked.
Cheers,
Stu.

> http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <s.dieke@f...>
wrote:
> The plate is a litte unprecise and the text is rather vague. Eli,
why didn't
> you make a transcription? ;-) It's rather funny for a german to
work with an
> english translation of a german text.

If I had made a transcription then people like you could have cast
doubts on my infallible writings, and even lead other poor souls into
the error of heresy...

"16. wenn du mit deinem fingern zwishen adversarii finger kommen
kanst/so drucke ihm seine hande zurucke/alsdann muss er sich auff die
knie setzen/wie n 8 zeiget/oder drehe ihn seine finger auswerts so
werden sie sich verrencten." or something like that, the text is
quite smudgy in places.

You pointed out the shortcommings of a
> translation in your editor's notes. Seems as if I have to order the
book.

Order it anyway, and then you can translate Durer or von Auerswald
for us :)

> http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Hi Stu,

> > To bring things forward let me  state that No. 7 is the double
>
> sided version
>
> > of No 4.
>
> It's similar yes except that 4. looks to be done horizontally and
> with what looks like a hammerfist and 7 looks to be done vertically

Hmm, I don't see a hammerfist in 4. To me the fingers are visible so they are
extended and the blow is delivered with the edge of the hand. I agree that
it's more horizontal in 4 and more vertical in 7. For me this results from
the degree in which the opponents arms are turned. In 4 the elbow points
outside while the inner joint is inside thus its a more horizontal blow. In 7
the elbow points downwards, the inner joint is upwards, the blow comes
vertical.

The handedge blow also seems to be more effective since it lands on a smaller
surface and doesn't hinder the elbow to bend as much as a fist would.

> A good Self protection followup here is a double palm strike to the
> face. In a wrestling match you might go for a double head tie.

That's what came to my mind aswell. By smashing insided the elbow joint you
bring the adversarius in such a nice follow-up range. But let's see what
Paschen suggests.


> Number 8 is kinda funny.
>
> "When you can get your fingers between those of Adversarii, so press
> his hands back, then he must sink to his knee, which N° 8 shows, or
> turn his fingers outwards, so will he sprain them".
>
> I think this is an invitation. You put your hands up so the adversary
> will bind with them and then immediately force his hands back and
> down.

The plate is a litte unprecise and the text is rather vague. Eli, why didn't
you make a transcription? ;-) It's rather funny for a german to work with an
english translation of a german text. You pointed out the shortcommings of a
translation in your editor's notes. Seems as if I have to order the book.

The plate doesn't show the fingers between those of the adversarius.
To make the opponent go down I would have to push the fingers backwards and
upwards and pull his hand towards me and downwards.

Cheers

Stefan


http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Hello,

The International Swordfighting and Martial Arts Convention continues to
grow as we go into our 5th year of bringing together the finest instructors
from around the world.  After making some exciting new additions, the web
site is up and can be found at
http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/index01.htm  This year we have added
even more classes to the convention with more variety, making it the
workshop not to be missed.  It will be held in Lansing, Michigan from August
6th-8th 2004.

We will be offering 45 classes over the three days starting on Friday
morning with workshops all day Friday, Saturday and Sunday.  There will be
two blocks of regular classes running concurrently with 3 hour master
classes.  We are very excited this year to add an additional block of 4 ½
hour Maestro classes to the workshop (true Master’s classes)!

We will also be offering PRIVATE LESSONS with the instructors again.  Last
year these were offered for the first time at any WMA workshop and it was a
huge success, so we are excited to repeat this rare opportunity.  Just check
out the website for more information!

Not only is there an amazing list of classes and instructors, but you will
have the chance to use your skills!  We will have our 2nd rapier tournament
on Saturday night, preceded by coached bouts on Friday night.  On Sunday
night we will be having our 1st SINGLESTICK TOURNAMENT, run by Macdonald
Academy of Arms.  There will also be demonstrations and presentations during
the lunch breaks everyday.

Come share in the fun of the infamous statues, try one of Lansing’s famous
pig sandwiches while learning tons about Western Martial Arts!

TTFN

Jared Kirby

_________________________________________________________________
Get business advice and resources to improve your work life, from bCentral.
http://special.msn.com/bcentral/loudclear.armx

--- In western-arts@yahoogroups.com, Stefan Dieke <s.dieke@f...>
wrote:
> Thank you for your reply, Stu.
> Here at home I can't try things out. My wife hesitates to be my
dummy, ;-)

LOL Me too! Em visibly stiffens whenever I say something like. "Can I
borrow your arm for a minute". I get days to practice on Monday,
Tuesday Thursday and sometimes on the weekend.

> To bring things forward let me  state that No. 7 is the double
sided version
> of No 4.

It's similar yes except that 4. looks to be done horizontally and
with what looks like a hammerfist and 7 looks to be done vertically
with an edge of hand blow. The hammer fist looks to be being done
with a whipping action as the arm is quite straight whereas the EOH
blow is being done with a well best slamming action.
A good Self protection followup here is a double palm strike to the
face. In a wrestling match you might go for a double head tie.

Number 8 is kinda funny.

"When you can get your fingers between those of Adversarii, so press
his hands back, then he must sink to his knee, which N° 8 shows, or
turn his fingers outwards, so will he sprain them".

I think this is an invitation. You put your hands up so the adversary
will bind with them and then immediately force his hands back and
down.
Cheers,
Stu.
http://www.geocities.com/ulfberth/Passchen1.htm

Actually names not Gauss, its Ian but I go by Cudgel
on MAP.
It would be nice if a similar get togewther happened
In So Cal
--- Louie Pastore <dirkdance@...> wrote:
>
>     ----- Original Message -----
>     From: Gauss Keppr Dalksson
>
> >>Yay I have another forum to haunt. Since when did
> this happen?<<
>
> Hi Gauss,
>
> I've been trying to organize it for a while, making
> regular posts and directing interested people
> towards WMA lists including this one... They finally
> gave the OK on Friday so it's just become active!
>
> One interesting development from this list is that
> individual instructors from different styles have
> organised get-togethers through MAP to share
> techniques, info and training methods. (Recently one
> was organised by Scottish members which took place
> in Edinburgh and there's another due in Glasgow
> soon).
>
> Louie
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________
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Greetings To All Martial Artists and Aware People.

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Kind Thoughts
Guro Dennis Servaes



rommel l miel <melmiel@...> wrote:
To: filipinowarriorarts2@yahoogroups.com
From: "rommel l miel"
Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2004 01:49:25 +0800
Subject: [Filipino Warrior Arts 2] Arnis Kali Escrima Books on Ebay

Hi Everyone,

     Just wanted to let you know that there is a set of Kali, Arnis, Escrima
Books that is up for auction at EBay.  You can check it out at:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3591860195&ssPageName=ADME:B:\
LC:US:1


      Thanks!


Rommel
Modern and Balintawak Arnis



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In the latest edition of 'Knives Australia' our own Stephen Hand has been
acknowledged in an article covering the Victorian Governments proposal to
declare swords and crossbows prohibited weapons , seems the writer values
Steve's opinions .


Craig G

_________________________________________________________________
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