I am after an online video of Superimpie & Unsu (Wado versions). If
anyone has any links i would be grateful.

Yours Steve Balaam-Reed 3rd Dan www.wadolegend.karoo.net

G'day Ben... long time...

The Otsuka sensei interview with Liam Keeley "Ohtsuka is asked about kihon
gumite and mentioned he made up 24 at first (just
to confuse us a little more). is only confusing if one assumes that the 36
kumite gata were the original...It is possible that 24 were originally conceived
and... as often is where the 'work in process' of human development is
concerned... were perhaps only the initial stages before the number increased
and eventually decreased into the distilled 10 Kihon Kumite that exist in most
curriculum today... I believe none of the kumite gata were 'carved in stone'
because not only was wado a 'work in progress' but Otsuka O sensei was himself,
as indeed we all are, a work in progress... and today Otsuka Jiro is continuing
that process.

When you say "I find training these techniques very interesting, particularly
due to their use of unbalancing and controlling the opponent which is not a
feature emphasised so much in the present form of 10 Kihon Gumite"  I am
surprised because many years ago those are the very aspects that were presented
to me as integral to kihon kumite... and you would know of course that I am from
the Suzuki Tatsuo stable... where kuzushi, noru, irimi and inasu is very much a
part of what is taught...  I think perhaps on many occasions in early European &
UK wado the kihon kumite kuzushi was often demonstrated and ... to aid the flow
of dojo training.. was then only implied by a slight touch in the placement of
the knee or hand which may have just slipped beneath the obvious in the
training... The 10 curriculum kihon kumite itself are a treasure house of
information when one is able to move beyond the initial training and in many
cases it is perhaps just futanren and a matter of time... but having said that,
I also think the yearning for roots and lineage show technical origins are
important to many students so the 'work in progress' needs its linkage to the
past as well as forward so the ongoing kumite gata development in Wado Ryu is
valuable in this regard also....

Personally I think the seats in Tim's  Mk 2 Escort were bloody uncomfortable...

regards

Reg Kear
San no Ya Australia

----- Original Message -----
   From: shinbukai2004
   To: wadokarate@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, March 08, 2004 12:08 AM
   Subject: [Wado Forum] Re: Re. Kumite Gata


   --- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Shaw" <tim.shaw@u...> wrote:

   > Why this obsession with the original form of the 36? Yes it would
   be interesting from a historical and technical perspective, and
   perhaps some of the techniques of the late grandmaster should be
   preserved in one form or another (the benefit of film comes to
   mind), but Wado moved on from 1939, and is still moving on. Having
   said that, perhaps it is that some of the techniques within the
   accepted Wado curriculum are more fixed and by their nature have
   less scope for mutation and change?


   Tim,

   I think your right, the kumite kata have developed and refined over
   time and this is a good aspect of Ohtsuka's karate. I agree with you
   on this, the only reason for musing over what the original
   techniques might have been is one of historical interest, but I
   think that is also important in order to put into context what it is
   we are training today. It could be that we have lost some very
   useful techniques from his experience in Shindo Yoshin Ryu and other
   jujutsu systems, perhaps more suited to everyday self-defence type
   situations? Who knows.

   A few more thoughts on the kumite kata and kihon gumite though. I
   had a look at the interview from an early edition of Fighting Arts
   in which Liam Keeley interviewed Ohtsuka Sensei. In it, Ohtsuka is
   asked about kihon gumite and mentioned he made up 24 at first (just
   to confuse us a little more).

   If you check the details of the Butokukai registration which Shingo
   Ohgami provides on his website (translated from research by Dr
   Fujiwara) it lists out further detail of the techniques. Ohgami
   Sensei believes that the present day Kihon Gumite are something like
   the `Ohyu gata' which were registered at this point. Ohta Sensei
   said that Ohtsuka reduced the number of Kihon Gumite (Ohyu Gata??)
   down to five and then added 5 back to give us the 10 Kihon Gumite
   trained today.

   Shingo Ohgami has also been curious about what became of the '36
   kihon gumite' and asked many seniors but said he could not get an
   answer (see interview in FAI magazine).

   Coming back to the `kumite kata' my belief is that as the Budokan
   video shows somewhere in the order of 36 techniques (more like 33 by
   my counting and 28 or so by Ohgami's) the assumption has been made
   by some that these are old techniques.  This is only important of
   course, if you are concerned with historical accuracy. On a personal
   level, I find training these techniques very interesting,
   particularly due to their use of unbalancing and controlling the
   opponent which is not a feature emphasised so much in the present
   form of 10 Kihon Gumite.

   Alex's question was why are these not trained by all senior
   instructors? That's a curiosity for me too. If Suzuki's opinion is
   correct and these techniques appeared (or reappeared) in the 1960's,
   why have they not been more widely adopted? It seems to me the main
   proponent of them is Jiro Ohtsuka. I think Tatsuo Suzuki may have
   dabbled with them a little (the photo on the cover of Issue No.5 of
   Wado Journal shows Tatsuo Suzuki defending against an attack by
   Atsuo Yamashita in what looks like the first kumite kata - this
   picture was taken in 1965). The Wado Kai instructor Shinsuke
   Yanagida does make use of them in his instructional video. Perhaps
   Dr Takagi teaches them (he emphasises the use of the knee in close
   quarters at any rate which is a strong feature of these techniques)
   and my own instructor, Sakagami Sensei is quite an advocate of them,
   teaches them regularly and includes them in the grading system.

   Would be interested to learn from the group if anyone has ever seen
   instructors Aizawa, Yamashita or Noboro Suzuki teaching the kumite
   kata?

   I know I've rambled on for a bit here, its more food for thought
   than anything, to summarise though, my view is the kumite kata are
   modern techniques as opposed to old and that definitely, they are
   well worth including in your training if you do not already do so.



   BP.





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm back,

So the point with kihon kumite.
It is what it says. So the rest is up to you. There is
kuzushi in KK, there are throws in KK, there are locks
in KK. Take the omote and make ura.
That is why i think the kumite gata are not in most
wado-schools or organizations sylabussi.
You don't need extra exercises to learn what you
already learned in basic. Be free and develop.
This way you can only grow as a person and as a
MA-ist.
It is up to the teacher to keep it good bounderies,
that you develop in the right way and don't miss the
point of what was meant in the first place by
O-sensei.

Jaron
Wado ryu karate Israel
--- jaron ben yochanan <jaronby@...> wrote:
> Hi Arnold, Tim and others,
>
> You say Arnold that you come from the Suzuki line,
> does that mean you're some how connected to his
> organization? If yes, you should know that there is
> of
> course a syllabus in the WIKF.
> You can also ask Jerry Smit or Gertjan Martens or
> Frank Philipoom for that matter.
>
> I agree with Tim that you can't stop at the model T
> Ford. I think that is just what happened.
> The kumite gata are nice stuff to take in your
> lessons
> to bring the light from another direction.
> But the principles and the exercises teaching those
> principles are right here in the sanbon-, ohyo- and
> kihon kumite.
> It is the same why O-sensei only wanted nine kata in
> his cirriculum. The others can be all traced back to
> the first nine, technically wise.
> I talk about fighting techniques here, not some
> historical or political point of view.
>
> That is also the point with kihon kumite.
> I have to go and teach, I'll be back in 1,5 hour to
> continue this...
>
> Yours Jaron,
> Wado ryu karate Israel
> --- Tim Shaw <tim.shaw@...> wrote:
> > Hi Arnold,
> >
> > You said:
> >
> > "I understand when you say that Wado moves on. But
> > what is next that we
> > loose?"
> >
> > I'm not so sure we've lost anything. What perhaps
> > has slipped into the background are the earlier
> > versions, rather like with models of car, things
> > have moved on a little since the Mark II Ford
> > Escort. So, like Ben Pollock suggested, the very
> > early 1939-40 kumite that Ohtsuka Sensei was
> > experimenting with may appear quite different from
> > what he was presenting for posterity later in his
> > life.
> >
> > "I come from the line of Suzuki. He does not teach
> > them at all.
> > There is no syllabus for as i know of."
> >
> > That's not for me to speculate on, I'm not
> qualified
> > to comment.
> >
> > "I get the idea that not so many people know these
> > original technics. So is evolution losing things."
> >
> > Yes, you are right, these techniques are not known
> > by many people. But Wado has now become a global
> > system, it has spread to nearly every country in
> > every continent, the Wado badge is worn by many
> > individuals belonging to many political
> affiliations
> > each with their own history and politics. This
> will
> > mean that all of these groups will work a standard
> > Wado core syllabus, but at the fringes of the core
> > syllabus exists all manner of additional
> > attachments, be they groundwork borrowed from Judo
> > or the reinvention of Superempi. This will also
> mean
> > that those closely enough connected to the Ohtsuka
> > lineage may get access to other areas of Wado
> > practice. But for most the working of the core
> > syllabus as a lifetime project is enough. Some may
> > see the additional attachments (groundwork,
> > Superempi) as evolutionary gain, that's fair
> enough.
> > But such a global entity as Wado will inevitably
> in
> > some areas suffer from mistranslation or dilution.
> >
> > "And of historical point of view. Isn't it for
> youre
> > own development interesting to know how the
> original
> > technics where in an attemp to understand why
> things
> > change."
> >
> > Yes, I think I said this. It gives you an
> additional
> > perspective.
> >
> > "And is the initiation of the change done by ???
> Is
> > this known."
> >
> > I think it is wrong to assume that just anyone can
> > initiate change. Particularly where Wado is
> > concerned (there are so many out there who fail to
> > grasp even the most fundamental aspects of Wado -
> I
> > am speaking from local knowledge.)
> >
> > "And where the reasons of the change clear. Was it
> > Othsuka I himself or his son or someone else. Who
> > are we following? Yes i think tha preserving the
> > orignal technics is very leagal to do and an
> attemp
> > to preserve our lagecy."
> >
> > Yes, but on this last point, we have to be careful
> > that the Wado we practice does not become
> fossilized
> > or we'll all find ourselves tiptoeing through the
> > petrified forest, the remnants of Wado kept behind
> > glass by ultra conservative museum attendants.
> > Greater understanding and the use of an enquiring
> > mind will prevent this from happening, this will
> > enable us to preserve the tradition and ideas of
> > Wado, which are more important than the rigid
> > exterior forms.
> >
> > Just my opinion.
> >
> > Fan of the Mark II Escort
> >
> > Tim Shaw
> > Essex
> > UK
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
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Hi Arnold, Tim and others,

You say Arnold that you come from the Suzuki line,
does that mean you're some how connected to his
organization? If yes, you should know that there is of
course a syllabus in the WIKF.
You can also ask Jerry Smit or Gertjan Martens or
Frank Philipoom for that matter.

I agree with Tim that you can't stop at the model T
Ford. I think that is just what happened.
The kumite gata are nice stuff to take in your lessons
to bring the light from another direction.
But the principles and the exercises teaching those
principles are right here in the sanbon-, ohyo- and
kihon kumite.
It is the same why O-sensei only wanted nine kata in
his cirriculum. The others can be all traced back to
the first nine, technically wise.
I talk about fighting techniques here, not some
historical or political point of view.

That is also the point with kihon kumite.
I have to go and teach, I'll be back in 1,5 hour to
continue this...

Yours Jaron,
Wado ryu karate Israel
--- Tim Shaw <tim.shaw@...> wrote:
> Hi Arnold,
>
> You said:
>
> "I understand when you say that Wado moves on. But
> what is next that we
> loose?"
>
> I'm not so sure we've lost anything. What perhaps
> has slipped into the background are the earlier
> versions, rather like with models of car, things
> have moved on a little since the Mark II Ford
> Escort. So, like Ben Pollock suggested, the very
> early 1939-40 kumite that Ohtsuka Sensei was
> experimenting with may appear quite different from
> what he was presenting for posterity later in his
> life.
>
> "I come from the line of Suzuki. He does not teach
> them at all.
> There is no syllabus for as i know of."
>
> That's not for me to speculate on, I'm not qualified
> to comment.
>
> "I get the idea that not so many people know these
> original technics. So is evolution losing things."
>
> Yes, you are right, these techniques are not known
> by many people. But Wado has now become a global
> system, it has spread to nearly every country in
> every continent, the Wado badge is worn by many
> individuals belonging to many political affiliations
> each with their own history and politics. This will
> mean that all of these groups will work a standard
> Wado core syllabus, but at the fringes of the core
> syllabus exists all manner of additional
> attachments, be they groundwork borrowed from Judo
> or the reinvention of Superempi. This will also mean
> that those closely enough connected to the Ohtsuka
> lineage may get access to other areas of Wado
> practice. But for most the working of the core
> syllabus as a lifetime project is enough. Some may
> see the additional attachments (groundwork,
> Superempi) as evolutionary gain, that's fair enough.
> But such a global entity as Wado will inevitably in
> some areas suffer from mistranslation or dilution.
>
> "And of historical point of view. Isn't it for youre
> own development interesting to know how the original
> technics where in an attemp to understand why things
> change."
>
> Yes, I think I said this. It gives you an additional
> perspective.
>
> "And is the initiation of the change done by ??? Is
> this known."
>
> I think it is wrong to assume that just anyone can
> initiate change. Particularly where Wado is
> concerned (there are so many out there who fail to
> grasp even the most fundamental aspects of Wado - I
> am speaking from local knowledge.)
>
> "And where the reasons of the change clear. Was it
> Othsuka I himself or his son or someone else. Who
> are we following? Yes i think tha preserving the
> orignal technics is very leagal to do and an attemp
> to preserve our lagecy."
>
> Yes, but on this last point, we have to be careful
> that the Wado we practice does not become fossilized
> or we'll all find ourselves tiptoeing through the
> petrified forest, the remnants of Wado kept behind
> glass by ultra conservative museum attendants.
> Greater understanding and the use of an enquiring
> mind will prevent this from happening, this will
> enable us to preserve the tradition and ideas of
> Wado, which are more important than the rigid
> exterior forms.
>
> Just my opinion.
>
> Fan of the Mark II Escort
>
> Tim Shaw
> Essex
> UK
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you’re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com

Hi Arnold,

You said:

"I understand when you say that Wado moves on. But what is next that we
loose?"

I'm not so sure we've lost anything. What perhaps has slipped into the
background are the earlier versions, rather like with models of car, things have
moved on a little since the Mark II Ford Escort. So, like Ben Pollock suggested,
the very early 1939-40 kumite that Ohtsuka Sensei was experimenting with may
appear quite different from what he was presenting for posterity later in his
life.

"I come from the line of Suzuki. He does not teach them at all.
There is no syllabus for as i know of."

That's not for me to speculate on, I'm not qualified to comment.

"I get the idea that not so many people know these original technics. So is
evolution losing things."

Yes, you are right, these techniques are not known by many people. But Wado has
now become a global system, it has spread to nearly every country in every
continent, the Wado badge is worn by many individuals belonging to many
political affiliations each with their own history and politics. This will mean
that all of these groups will work a standard Wado core syllabus, but at the
fringes of the core syllabus exists all manner of additional attachments, be
they groundwork borrowed from Judo or the reinvention of Superempi. This will
also mean that those closely enough connected to the Ohtsuka lineage may get
access to other areas of Wado practice. But for most the working of the core
syllabus as a lifetime project is enough. Some may see the additional
attachments (groundwork, Superempi) as evolutionary gain, that's fair enough.
But such a global entity as Wado will inevitably in some areas suffer from
mistranslation or dilution.

"And of historical point of view. Isn't it for youre own development interesting
to know how the original technics where in an attemp to understand why things
change."

Yes, I think I said this. It gives you an additional perspective.

"And is the initiation of the change done by ??? Is this known."

I think it is wrong to assume that just anyone can initiate change. Particularly
where Wado is concerned (there are so many out there who fail to grasp even the
most fundamental aspects of Wado - I am speaking from local knowledge.)

"And where the reasons of the change clear. Was it Othsuka I himself or his son
or someone else. Who are we following? Yes i think tha preserving the orignal
technics is very leagal to do and an attemp to preserve our lagecy."

Yes, but on this last point, we have to be careful that the Wado we practice
does not become fossilized or we'll all find ourselves tiptoeing through the
petrified forest, the remnants of Wado kept behind glass by ultra conservative
museum attendants. Greater understanding and the use of an enquiring mind will
prevent this from happening, this will enable us to preserve the tradition and
ideas of Wado, which are more important than the rigid exterior forms.

Just my opinion.

Fan of the Mark II Escort

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "Tim Shaw" <tim.shaw@u...> wrote:

> Why this obsession with the original form of the 36? Yes it would
be interesting from a historical and technical perspective, and
perhaps some of the techniques of the late grandmaster should be
preserved in one form or another (the benefit of film comes to
mind), but Wado moved on from 1939, and is still moving on. Having
said that, perhaps it is that some of the techniques within the
accepted Wado curriculum are more fixed and by their nature have
less scope for mutation and change?


Tim,

I think your right, the kumite kata have developed and refined over
time and this is a good aspect of Ohtsuka's karate. I agree with you
on this, the only reason for musing over what the original
techniques might have been is one of historical interest, but I
think that is also important in order to put into context what it is
we are training today. It could be that we have lost some very
useful techniques from his experience in Shindo Yoshin Ryu and other
jujutsu systems, perhaps more suited to everyday self-defence type
situations? Who knows.

A few more thoughts on the kumite kata and kihon gumite though. I
had a look at the interview from an early edition of Fighting Arts
in which Liam Keeley interviewed Ohtsuka Sensei. In it, Ohtsuka is
asked about kihon gumite and mentioned he made up 24 at first (just
to confuse us a little more).

If you check the details of the Butokukai registration which Shingo
Ohgami provides on his website (translated from research by Dr
Fujiwara) it lists out further detail of the techniques. Ohgami
Sensei believes that the present day Kihon Gumite are something like
the `Ohyu gata' which were registered at this point. Ohta Sensei
said that Ohtsuka reduced the number of Kihon Gumite (Ohyu Gata??)
down to five and then added 5 back to give us the 10 Kihon Gumite
trained today.

Shingo Ohgami has also been curious about what became of the '36
kihon gumite' and asked many seniors but said he could not get an
answer (see interview in FAI magazine).

Coming back to the `kumite kata' my belief is that as the Budokan
video shows somewhere in the order of 36 techniques (more like 33 by
my counting and 28 or so by Ohgami's) the assumption has been made
by some that these are old techniques.  This is only important of
course, if you are concerned with historical accuracy. On a personal
level, I find training these techniques very interesting,
particularly due to their use of unbalancing and controlling the
opponent which is not a feature emphasised so much in the present
form of 10 Kihon Gumite.

Alex's question was why are these not trained by all senior
instructors? That's a curiosity for me too. If Suzuki's opinion is
correct and these techniques appeared (or reappeared) in the 1960's,
why have they not been more widely adopted? It seems to me the main
proponent of them is Jiro Ohtsuka. I think Tatsuo Suzuki may have
dabbled with them a little (the photo on the cover of Issue No.5 of
Wado Journal shows Tatsuo Suzuki defending against an attack by
Atsuo Yamashita in what looks like the first kumite kata – this
picture was taken in 1965). The Wado Kai instructor Shinsuke
Yanagida does make use of them in his instructional video. Perhaps
Dr Takagi teaches them (he emphasises the use of the knee in close
quarters at any rate which is a strong feature of these techniques)
and my own instructor, Sakagami Sensei is quite an advocate of them,
teaches them regularly and includes them in the grading system.

Would be interested to learn from the group if anyone has ever seen
instructors Aizawa, Yamashita or Noboro Suzuki teaching the kumite
kata?

I know I've rambled on for a bit here, its more food for thought
than anything, to summarise though, my view is the kumite kata are
modern techniques as opposed to old and that definitely, they are
well worth including in your training if you do not already do so.



BP.

Tim,

I understand when you say that Wado moves on. But what is next that we
loose? I come from the line of Suzuki. He does not teach them at all.
There is no syllabus for as i know of. I get the idea that not so many
people know these origal technics. So is evolution losing things. And of
historical point of view. Isn't it for youre own development interesting
to know how the original technics where in an attemp to understand why
things change. And is the initiation of the change done by ??? Is this
known. And where the reasons of the change clear. Was it OthsukaI
himself or his son or someone else. Who are we following? Yes i think
tha preserving the orignal technics is very leagal to do and an attemp
to preserve our lagecy.

Greetings
Arnold Keizer
Netherland

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Tim Shaw [mailto:tim.shaw@...]
Verzonden: zaterdag 6 maart 2004 17:57
Aan: wadokarate@yahoogroups.com
Onderwerp: [Wado Forum] Re. Kumite Gata


Alexander comments that the kumite gata as they are today may not be the
kumite gata of 1938-39. I for one would be disappointed if they were.

They may have the same basic structure, i.e. Jo-Chu-Ge, Soto/Uchi,
Ai/Gyaku gamae and the timings etc. after all this is what has been
explained to us as the logic of there being 36, but over the 30 years
since the Butokukai registration the late master Ohtsuka's technical
approach became more refined (surely).

Why this obsession with the original form of the 36? Yes it would be
interesting from a historical and technical perspective, and perhaps
some of the techniques of the late grandmaster should be preserved in
one form or another (the benefit of film comes to mind), but Wado moved
on from 1939, and is still moving on. Having said that, perhaps it is
that some of the techniques within the accepted Wado curriculum are more
fixed and by their nature have less scope for mutation and change?

The kumite gata give an insight into the workings of the Kihon Gumite,
but there are things that also go beyond the Kihon Gumite, as Ohtsuka II
Sensei was demonstrating only a couple of weeks ago here in the UK. I
would have loved to have asked him about the history of the kumite gata
but sadly did not have the time or the opportunity.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Mr. Philippe,

Recently this link:
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/003/index.html

was posted here:
http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24879

In my opinion both these links provide interesting information. It
seems that the naifanchi testing as shown in shorin-ryu derived from
goju. I hope this is helpfull to you.

To all, thank you for all the information posted here. I've enjoyed
reading your posts and learned a lot from them.
Back to lurking in the darkness.

Casper Baar, the Netherlands


--- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "wadojitsukenpo"
<wadojitsukenpo@y...> wrote:
> Dear Wadoka,
>
> Following the kumite gata and the kihon kumite articles, which have
> been undoubtedly an inspiration to everyone.
> Wado inashi is a type/kind of yakusoku kumite which is also clearly
> based on all important budo concepts and principles of eg kumite
gata
> like noru, inasu, nagasu etc. I think it is even going one step
> further...., apparantly the kawashi element in inashi is a kempo
> tactic: sorimi,  hinerimi (nagashizuki)..... A number of these
subtle
> Japanese budo ideas come from kenjutsu (jikishinkage ryu...) on
which
> shiraha dori and perhaps even tanto dori is based.
> Does anyone know where to find detailed information about eg
shiraha
> dori and inashi?
> Turning to the ingenious okinawan part of tode, which blended into
> wado, I think it is important not to forget tanren training through
> kata and training tools like makiwara, chishii, chashi etc. I
clearly
> feel it is helping to make techniques flow in a very relaxed way
and
> generating tremendous power when it should. I read
> an 'article'/account about tanren kata sanchin, which used to be
part
> of the wado curriculum of Mochizuki (a long time ago, but it was
> quite educational), mentioning that naihanchi is shuri te 's (and
in
> my view consequently wado 's) tanren kata.
> I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
> concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
> checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
> any ideas, background information, sources on this?
>
> Francis Philippe, Belgium,

We used the makiwara in the WIKF dojo in tokyo last year, it's always been a
favourite of Suzuki sensei's..
Rob, England

Alexander Moshe <alex@...> wrote:


> Dear Wadoka,
>
> Following the kumite gata and the kihon kumite articles, which have
> been undoubtedly an inspiration to everyone.
> Wado inashi is a type/kind of yakusoku kumite which is also clearly
> based on all important budo concepts and principles of eg kumite gata
> like noru, inasu, nagasu etc. I think it is even going one step
> further...., apparantly the kawashi element in inashi is a kempo
> tactic: sorimi,  hinerimi (nagashizuki)..... A number of these subtle
> Japanese budo ideas come from kenjutsu (jikishinkage ryu...) on which
> shiraha dori and perhaps even tanto dori is based.

Is inashi not a concept or so, which contains inasu, nagasu, noru...?

A concept of movement?
> Does anyone know where to find detailed information about eg shiraha
> dori and inashi?

Shinken Shiraha Dori is the same as Tachi Tori, which is Sword Defense.
(unarmed against the Sword)

> Turning to the ingenious okinawan part of tode, which blended into
> wado, I think it is important not to forget tanren training through
> kata and training tools like makiwara, chishii, chashi etc. I clearly
> feel it is helping to make techniques flow in a very relaxed way and
> generating tremendous power when it should. I read

I'm not sure. I would think, Makiwara is more for hard and powerfull punches
as in Goju Ryu and other Styles,
and i think not, that we in Wado Ryu should do the things this way.
(This means not, that a WadoKa shouldn't use the makiwara.)

When the relaxed and flowing techniques will be better (more relaxed und
flowing) with makiawara.. then it's ok.
Chishii and chashi... what is this?

> an 'article'/account about tanren kata sanchin, which used to be part
> of the wado curriculum of Mochizuki (a long time ago, but it was
> quite educational), mentioning that naihanchi is shuri te 's (and in
> my view consequently wado 's) tanren kata.
> I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
> concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
> checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
> any ideas, background information, sources on this?

I think we should look, that we not use and take all ideas from Shuri Te (or
Okinawa Te),
because some princples are not the same as in japanese Bujutsu.



Alex



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Much appreciated!

Anice website to check out these and similar things;
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/023/eng/011/index.html




Tim Shaw <tim.shaw@...> wrote:
Francis Philippe, you speculated about Naihanchi kata;

"I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
any ideas, background information, sources on this?"

From my brief flirtation with Okinawan Goju Ryu (I trained for a short time with
representatives of Miyazato Sensei's Jundokan) I had the experience of working
Sanchin kata and the associated Shime waza, I see no connection with Naihanchi
kata as practiced by Wadoka and the Okinawan methodology as seen in Sanchin and
Tensho. There are some practices that can be performed with a partner to check
aspects of the kata (Naihanchi), the ones that most people know relate to the
nameashigeri and the checking of balance during the technique. But apart from
that the methods are as different as chalk and cheese.

Also, there is no background of applying Sanchin style forced breathing in any
Wado katas.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello,

This is a wonderful site which gives some details on tanren training and tools
like chashi (weights-stones) and shishii (kind of one-sided barbells);
http://www.wonder-okinawa.jp/

I cannot exactly put inashi in its place really, but it does contain beautiful
movements like kawashi, sabaki etc etc.

How it has a bearing on kumite gata if at all is somewhat unclear to me.

Champ produced two beauifully mastered videoos on inashi by syunsuke yanagita
and on idori by doctor hakoishi; www.karatedo.co.jp very detailed and top
quality to have in a library

francis philippe, wado belgium,


Alexander Moshe <alex@...> wrote:


> Dear Wadoka,
>
> Following the kumite gata and the kihon kumite articles, which have
> been undoubtedly an inspiration to everyone.
> Wado inashi is a type/kind of yakusoku kumite which is also clearly
> based on all important budo concepts and principles of eg kumite gata
> like noru, inasu, nagasu etc. I think it is even going one step
> further...., apparantly the kawashi element in inashi is a kempo
> tactic: sorimi, hinerimi (nagashizuki)..... A number of these subtle
> Japanese budo ideas come from kenjutsu (jikishinkage ryu...) on which
> shiraha dori and perhaps even tanto dori is based.

Is inashi not a concept or so, which contains inasu, nagasu, noru...?

A concept of movement?
> Does anyone know where to find detailed information about eg shiraha
> dori and inashi?

Shinken Shiraha Dori is the same as Tachi Tori, which is Sword Defense.
(unarmed against the Sword)

> Turning to the ingenious okinawan part of tode, which blended into
> wado, I think it is important not to forget tanren training through
> kata and training tools like makiwara, chishii, chashi etc. I clearly
> feel it is helping to make techniques flow in a very relaxed way and
> generating tremendous power when it should. I read

I'm not sure. I would think, Makiwara is more for hard and powerfull punches
as in Goju Ryu and other Styles,
and i think not, that we in Wado Ryu should do the things this way.
(This means not, that a WadoKa shouldn't use the makiwara.)

When the relaxed and flowing techniques will be better (more relaxed und
flowing) with makiawara.. then it's ok.
Chishii and chashi... what is this?

> an 'article'/account about tanren kata sanchin, which used to be part
> of the wado curriculum of Mochizuki (a long time ago, but it was
> quite educational), mentioning that naihanchi is shuri te 's (and in
> my view consequently wado 's) tanren kata.
> I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
> concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
> checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
> any ideas, background information, sources on this?

I think we should look, that we not use and take all ideas from Shuri Te (or
Okinawa Te),
because some princples are not the same as in japanese Bujutsu.



Alex




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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

you can find theze at
www.risingsunproductions.net
or www.amazon.com

these are not the dragon 3 & 4 tapes!

regards,

francis philippe

Alexander Moshe <alex@...> wrote:
> These two tapes are on offer;
>
> 1- Wado Kai Sword/jujitsu defences & advanced kata
> 2- Wado Kai Knife Kata/jujitsu
> > by Ajari sensei,
>
> Has anyone seen these?

No. Do you mean the volumes 3 & 4 of the Wado Ryu/Kai Videos from Ajari?

Or there are 2 new Videos? Where can i get this Videos?


ALex



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Is this tape available in PAL european format?

thanks,

francis philippe,

shinbukai2004 <wadojournal@...> wrote:
--- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "Domenico Capilongo"
wrote:
> Does anyone know where can this Budokan Video be found with the 36
kumite?
>

If your asking after the video I referred to, you can obtain it
through www.buyubooks.com and its called Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kempo.

BP





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Alexander comments that the kumite gata as they are today may not be the kumite
gata of 1938-39. I for one would be disappointed if they were.

They may have the same basic structure, i.e. Jo-Chu-Ge, Soto/Uchi, Ai/Gyaku
gamae and the timings etc. after all this is what has been explained to us as
the logic of there being 36, but over the 30 years since the Butokukai
registration the late master Ohtsuka's technical approach became more refined
(surely).

Why this obsession with the original form of the 36? Yes it would be interesting
from a historical and technical perspective, and perhaps some of the techniques
of the late grandmaster should be preserved in one form or another (the benefit
of film comes to mind), but Wado moved on from 1939, and is still moving on.
Having said that, perhaps it is that some of the techniques within the accepted
Wado curriculum are more fixed and by their nature have less scope for mutation
and change?

The kumite gata give an insight into the workings of the Kihon Gumite, but there
are things that also go beyond the Kihon Gumite, as Ohtsuka II Sensei was
demonstrating only a couple of weeks ago here in the UK. I would have loved to
have asked him about the history of the kumite gata but sadly did not have the
time or the opportunity.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Francis Philippe, you speculated about Naihanchi kata;

"I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
any ideas, background information, sources on this?"

From my brief flirtation with Okinawan Goju Ryu (I trained for a short time with
representatives of Miyazato Sensei's Jundokan) I had the experience of working
Sanchin kata and the associated Shime waza, I see no connection with Naihanchi
kata as practiced by Wadoka and the Okinawan methodology as seen in Sanchin and
Tensho. There are some practices that can be performed with a partner to check
aspects of the kata (Naihanchi), the ones that most people know relate to the
nameashigeri and the checking of balance during the technique. But apart from
that the methods are as different as chalk and cheese.

Also, there is no background of applying Sanchin style forced breathing in any
Wado katas.

Tim Shaw
Essex
UK


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Wadoka

> In the past, I've asked a lot of senior / veteran Japanese
> instructors about this. Ohta and Wakabayashi for example, both of
> whom began their training in the 1943, held the view that the
> techniques shown on the Budokan video filmed in 76, were not the
> same as those trained in the 40's. Additionally, they said wado was
> still changing in that period.

hm, Kumite Gata was always changing ...

possible there was 36 Kumite Gata in the 1940's, but not the same like
today?

Otsuka I. has developed and changed the Kumite Gata over the Years,
and his Son, Otsuka II., does it also.

So, today the Kumite Gata are not exact the same as in 'Wado's Otsuka'.
(Does anyone know, from which Year are the these footage?)

Alex

> These two tapes are on offer;
>
> 1- Wado Kai Sword/jujitsu defences & advanced kata
> 2- Wado Kai Knife Kata/jujitsu
> > by Ajari sensei,
>
> Has anyone seen these?

No. Do you mean the volumes 3 & 4 of the Wado Ryu/Kai Videos from Ajari?

Or there are 2 new Videos? Where can i get this Videos?


ALex

> <domcapilongo@h...> wrote:
> > Does anyone know where can this Budokan Video be found with the 36
> kumite?
> >
>
> If your asking after the video I referred to, you can obtain it
> through www.buyubooks.com and its called Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kempo.

Is this the same footage as in "Wado's Otsuka"?

BTW: The name is not
Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kempo
the correct name (type it in the search) is
Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kenpo
(n, not m in Kenpo. I know in Japanese it's the same one, but by the english
search, it's not the same).

Alex

> Dear Wadoka,
>
> Following the kumite gata and the kihon kumite articles, which have
> been undoubtedly an inspiration to everyone.
> Wado inashi is a type/kind of yakusoku kumite which is also clearly
> based on all important budo concepts and principles of eg kumite gata
> like noru, inasu, nagasu etc. I think it is even going one step
> further...., apparantly the kawashi element in inashi is a kempo
> tactic: sorimi,  hinerimi (nagashizuki)..... A number of these subtle
> Japanese budo ideas come from kenjutsu (jikishinkage ryu...) on which
> shiraha dori and perhaps even tanto dori is based.

Is inashi not a concept or so, which contains inasu, nagasu, noru...?

A concept of movement?
> Does anyone know where to find detailed information about eg shiraha
> dori and inashi?

Shinken Shiraha Dori is the same as Tachi Tori, which is Sword Defense.
(unarmed against the Sword)

> Turning to the ingenious okinawan part of tode, which blended into
> wado, I think it is important not to forget tanren training through
> kata and training tools like makiwara, chishii, chashi etc. I clearly
> feel it is helping to make techniques flow in a very relaxed way and
> generating tremendous power when it should. I read

I'm not sure. I would think, Makiwara is more for hard and powerfull punches
as in Goju Ryu and other Styles,
and i think not, that we in Wado Ryu should do the things this way.
(This means not, that a WadoKa shouldn't use the makiwara.)

When the relaxed and flowing techniques will be better (more relaxed und
flowing) with makiawara.. then it's ok.
Chishii and chashi... what is this?

> an 'article'/account about tanren kata sanchin, which used to be part
> of the wado curriculum of Mochizuki (a long time ago, but it was
> quite educational), mentioning that naihanchi is shuri te 's (and in
> my view consequently wado 's) tanren kata.
> I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
> concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
> checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
> any ideas, background information, sources on this?

I think we should look, that we not use and take all ideas from Shuri Te (or
Okinawa Te),
because some princples are not the same as in japanese Bujutsu.



Alex

--- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "Domenico Capilongo"
<domcapilongo@h...> wrote:
> Does anyone know where can this Budokan Video be found with the 36
kumite?
>

If your asking after the video I referred to, you can obtain it
through www.buyubooks.com and its called Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kempo.

BP

Does anyone know where can this Budokan Video be found with the 36 kumite?

_________________________________________________________________
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Dear Wadoka,

Following the kumite gata and the kihon kumite articles, which have
been undoubtedly an inspiration to everyone.
Wado inashi is a type/kind of yakusoku kumite which is also clearly
based on all important budo concepts and principles of eg kumite gata
like noru, inasu, nagasu etc. I think it is even going one step
further...., apparantly the kawashi element in inashi is a kempo
tactic: sorimi,  hinerimi (nagashizuki)..... A number of these subtle
Japanese budo ideas come from kenjutsu (jikishinkage ryu...) on which
shiraha dori and perhaps even tanto dori is based.
Does anyone know where to find detailed information about eg shiraha
dori and inashi?
Turning to the ingenious okinawan part of tode, which blended into
wado, I think it is important not to forget tanren training through
kata and training tools like makiwara, chishii, chashi etc. I clearly
feel it is helping to make techniques flow in a very relaxed way and
generating tremendous power when it should. I read
an 'article'/account about tanren kata sanchin, which used to be part
of the wado curriculum of Mochizuki (a long time ago, but it was
quite educational), mentioning that naihanchi is shuri te 's (and in
my view consequently wado 's) tanren kata.
I ask myself if naihanchi can be practised like sanchin, with total
concentration on power and breathing, shime waza (a partner who
checks tension, balance etc) like in goju ryu eg. Does anyone have
any ideas, background information, sources on this?

Francis Philippe, Belgium,

--- In wadokarate@yahoogroups.com, "Alexander Moshe" <alex@m...>
wrote:
>
> What i wondering is:
> Why in the Wado Kai Japan oder in the WIKF of Suzuki Sensei, there
is no
> Kumite Gata?
> We know, that the Kumite Gata are old (from the 30's?) and Otsuka
Sensei had
> shown it also in later Years (see "Otsukas Wado" or other Videos).
>
> But then, why Suzuki (WIKF), Ohgami(Chief of Wado Kai in Europe),
Imai
> (Wadokai Germany), etc. don't know and show the Kumite Gata?
> Have they not learned them?
> Or had Otsuka Sensei developed the Kihon Kumite, and then didn't
use the
> Kumite Gata in the 40s and 1950s?
> And later he reactivated the Kumite Gata?

Hi Alex,

I think you've raised an interesting question and I know the subject
has been touched on a little in some recent postings. I think there
is some confusion, or at least, an assumption, that the kumite kata
are the same as the "36 kumite" developed prior to the registration
of Wado Ryu with the butokukai group c.1939, but I can see no proof
of this.

In the past, I've asked a lot of senior / veteran Japanese
instructors about this. Ohta and Wakabayashi for example, both of
whom began their training in the 1943, held the view that the
techniques shown on the Budokan video filmed in 76, were not the
same as those trained in the 40's. Additionally, they said wado was
still changing in that period.

Tatsuo Suzuki was firmly of the view these techniques were more
recent in origin and this view seems to be one supported by other
Japanese Wado Kai instructors I've asked. It would be very
interesting to see if there is any evidence to offer a credible
alternative to their view. Perhaps we should keep an open mind for
now?

As an aside, Champ (follow the link from JKF Wado Kai homepage) now
produce a magazine - JKF fan. The December issue last year had a
nice section on Wado with some clear photos including Ohtsuka and
Ashihara performing "yakusoku kumite ura juppon"...techniques
similar in form to those shown on the Budokan video. Those of you
interested in the kumite kata, idori and tanto dori might like to
contact them and get a hold of a copy.

Anyway, hope these comments are of interest to you.

Ben Pollock

> The first 12 Kumite Gata should be Go no sen.
> But on every movement, there is a Counter-attack at the same time as the
> defending-movement.
> (Nagashi Gedan Barai Chudan and Ura-zuki at same time. Or haishu uke Jodan
> and Ura-zuki at same time).
> Is this go-no-sen?
>
> I would think, in Go.no.sen, the counterattack must be a little bit later
> than my Uke-Waza?

http://www.geocities.com/keikoden/principles.htm

Ok, Go no Sen means not to wait with the counter attack, but the counter
attack is executed, before, or direct after the initate attack is finished.

So, the Difference to Sensen no Sente is only, that the Counter attack is
done before the first attack is complete.

And by Sente (there are different Words for each of these Timings), i make
my attack, in the moment, the attacker want start his attack.

Right?

Alex

http://www.useasternwado.com/AnInterview3.htm

We should share the best Wado Ryu WebLinks here in the List.


Alex

Dear Francis Philippe

Thanks for your answer.
I'll look at the mentioned site

regards, Bert Mommers


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

-Hironori Otsuka is born on June 1st 1892 [2]
-Hironori Otsuka got the Menkyo-Kaiden from Nakayama Sensei on June 1st 1921
[2]
-Tatsuo Suzuki published his Book 'Karate-do' on June 1st 1975 [1]
-Sakura Sensei was awarded Karate-Do Hachi-Dan Menjyo from Otsuka Sensei on
June 1st 1975 [2]
-Sakura Sensei was awarded Shinto Yoshin-Ryu Kempo Hachi-Dan Menjyo from
Otsuka Sensei on June 1st 1979.[2]
-Tatsuo Suzuki Sensei was awarded 8.Dan Wado Ryu on June 1st 1975

Sources:
[1]
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0720701449/wwwpueblcouk-21/202-8413616-\
1661408
[2] http://home.att.net/~Bushinkai/wadoryu.htm
[]

Hello Bert,

Thanks for mailing.

I know of the Kamigaito organisation, however, I am a member of WIKF Belgium and
I am one of the senseis of KC Ishikawa Sint Truiden, under Wado Limburg.

Global site; www.wikf.com (our details are under Europe)

Kind regards,




bertmommers@... wrote:
Hello Francis Philippe

I haven't seen the two video's you mentioned.
But I have another question for you.
Are you a member of a club that is connected with Wado Kamigaito Belgium ?
If so in which club do you participate ?

Bert Mommers
bertmommers@...
kigisu@...





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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Francis Philippe

I haven't seen the two video's you mentioned.
But I have another question for you.
Are you a member of a club that is connected with Wado Kamigaito Belgium ?
If so in which club do you participate ?

Bert Mommers
bertmommers@...
kigisu@...








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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competitions that would be of interest to the community as a whole.

The discussion shall specifically exclude:

o any and all unsolicited advertisement of products or services

o posts containing binary attachments, with the specific exception  of PGP
signatures (alternative opportunities for binary file inclusion are available
using the eGroups Wado Karate Forum's Files Section.  If you want to share a
binary or HTML file, go to http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wadokarate and upload
it to our "FILES" section)

o material that cannot be considered to be of interest to the Wado Karate
community as a whole

o obvious flames, trolls, or other messages of an abusive or combative nature
designed to draw readers into unproductive  off-topic discussion.

o profanity.

END CHARTER

**********************************************************************



>>>>>CHARTER MAINTENANCE

This Charter will be provided to each new poster as they begin to contribute,
and will be posted on a monthly basis to the body of the group itself.



>>>>>TECHNICAL AND STYLE REQUIREMENTS

Binary files should not be posted via message to the Forum.  If you have a
binary you'd like to share, place it in a binary-hierarchy newsgroup or a web
page, and then post a text-only pointer in the Forum; or upload it to the
eGroups Wado Karate Forum's Files Section, which is specifically dedicated for
this type of display.  Binary files that are uploaded to the File Section must
follow the same guidelines as described above for regular message posts.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wadokarate/files/

All posts to the Forum are required to be in plain text only.  No HTML, no MIME,
no RTF, and no attachments whatsoever.  This is a text forum.  Some contributors
may still be participating from legacy equipment that cannot handle newer
formats, especially those participating from colleges and universities.

Post in ASCII plain text only.  Posters who violate this rule shall be warned
once, politely, and given help if they do not know how to set their mail reader
to text-only mode.  After the initial warning, contributors who violate the
plain-text rule will be subject to suspension from the Forum.

PGP signatures are the specific exception to this guideline.



>>>>>MEMBER MAINTENANCE

The listing of your personal information, and the method that you wish to use to
read the Forum messages, may be changed, edited, or updated at any time at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wadokarate/members/

Yahoo! Groups maintains a small personal profile of forum members that can be
modified or disabled as you prefer.  You also may choose from three methods of
reading the forum - each message as an individual e-mail; a daily summary of
messages to the forum; and reading the messages from the eGroups website. 
Messages are maintained on the Web at:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/wadokarate/messages



>>>>>AN APOLITICAL FORUM

The Wado Karate Forum is intended to be, as far as may be possible, an
apolitical forum.

Discussion on political topics should generally be limited to members who have
the knowledge to speak with true authority. No post in the form of "I heard this
from my sensei, therefore you stink" - that is, second- or third-hand
information - can be considered as anything more than inflammatory hearsay and
will be considered as such. Contributors here speak with nothing more than their
own voices at all times, unless and until they can quote reliable and easily
accessible sources, such as in-print books.

This guideline does not prohibit discussion on topics of a political nature that
are of special interest to the community as a whole.



>>>>>ETIQUETTE AND RESPECT

The Forum expects a general level of civility to be maintained at all times.
Those who have differing opinions are expected to be excruciatingly polite to
their adversaries when at all possible (see the 'apolitical' section above.) The
Forum is for civil discourse only.

Personal conflicts and/or vendettas are expected to remain personal and private
unless and until one or more parties can provide exacting proof that the topic
is worth discussion by the whole community. Members who engage in ad hominem
attacks, with or without a perceived cause, shall be sharply censured and
subject to suspension or expulsion from the Forum.

It is an acknowledged and recognized rule in this newsgroup that the first party
or parties in a discussion to resort to insults, name-calling, or threats has
forfeited the argument.  You launch the first tomato; you lose the argument, and
your credibility. This is a more specific case of "Godwin's Law", which states:

"As a thread or topic of discussion in a Usenet newsgroup continues, the
probability that one or more participants will bring up Hitler, Nazis, or
Fascism approaches one."

Thus, when the first insult or exchange of personal attacks is launched, the
party attacked should post to invoke Godwin's Law, declare the thread dead, and
'kill file' the topic and the offender.



>>>>>ETIQUETTE AND RESPECT - THREATS

Contributors to this forum are reminded that the issuance of threats to do
physical, bodily harm to another member of the community constitutes an illegal
act in most of the countries and political bodies in which contributors reside,
and your writing can and will be used against you.

If you issue any kind of threat to do physical harm to another contributor, then
we will take any and all steps necessary to identify you to your local
authorities.



>>>>>ETIQUETTE AND RESPECT - CREDENTIALS

"On USENET, no one knows you're a dog."

It is a given that on the Internet, people can and do claim to be anything and
anyone.  A troll with an exceptional vocabulary or skill with the written word
can, for a while, represent himself or herself as a dan-ranked practitioner,
until their lack of knowledge gives them away.

o It is considered poor manners to call into question any contributor's
credentials at any time.

o It is also considered poor form to post *your* credentials as a  source of
authority, unless you can also provide physical proof to  the community in
general. (Internet documents such as personal or club websites are not
considered legitimate proof for this purpose.)  Other contributors, who know or
have met you personally, if your credentials are crucial to a point of
discussion taking place, may vouch you for at any time.

o No one is required to speak to their credentials, age, experience, or any
other topic of this nature.

It is expected that you will become known and respected by the content and
quality of the information and arguments you provide in your participation in
the group. No other form of credentialing is worth the electrons it is carried
on.

o Calling into question another contributor's credentials without also being
able to provide physical proof to back your gambit is grounds  for the
invocation of the special case of Godwin's Law.



>>>>>TOPICAL MATTER

As from the Charter, appropriate subject matter will be of interest to the
community as a whole.  Specifically allowed are the traditional informative,
non-commercial postings announcing special Seminars and Tournament events.
Specifically disallowed is the blatant advertising of a particular commercial
school.  We want to know about seminars, tournaments, and events. We don't want
anyone using this Forum as free advertising for their place of business.

No deliberate trolling is allowed.  In this context, a troll is defined as a
posting on a subject or topic that the author has no true interest, but has the
motive of drawing the body of members into unproductive and usually inflammatory
discussion.  Members are encouraged to read all contributions carefully at all
times, and to consider whether or not any particular work may be a troll.



>>>>>LIVING DOCUMENT

This Charter is a work in progress.  It will change and grow. The body of
members is encouraged to make frequent suggestions on how to improve its scope
and breadth.