Hi,
I don't know of any reason to separate them like that.  One question though.
  You are taking arginine, but you don't mention L-lysine, Any arginine
producing product (like arginine itself, or citrilline malate) should be
balanced out with its antagonist L-lysine, this is especially true if you
have any form of herpes, but for anyone there seems to be immune issues if
you don't, so I'd take equal amounts of each unless you suffer cold-cores or
genital herpes in which case I'd go for twice the L-lysine to arginine (some
people with herpes just can't take arginine raising products full-stop).
Finally, as a side note you actually get more actual arginine created by
taking citrilline malate than taking an equal amount of arginine, so compare
costs & if they're about equal I'd go for the CM as a better deal.
Hope that's been of some help,

Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuilding.org

2009/11/24 mitch <mitchseaman2000@...>

>
>
>
> Thanks! As usual, super helpful response.
>
> Also, while i'm bothering everybody, i was wondering if my pre-workout
> glutamine/arginine/bcaa's needed to be separated out at all. Right now i
> take the arginine and glutamine about 30 minutes before i start, and then
> the bcaa's like right before. It dawned on me the other day that i can't
> remember why i started doing that, I probably just read something somewhere.
> Is there any reason to do that that you know of, or should i just take all
> of them like 30 minutes before, or right before?
>
> -m
>
> ________________________________
> From: Vegan Bodybuilding
<pete@...<pete%40veganbodybuilding.org>
> >
> To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com<veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 4:52:55 PM
> Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] soy
>
>
> Pat is right about fermented being superior, I wouldn't go so far
> personally
> to say it was detrimental to eat anything other than fermented soya, but I
> would say it's inferior to fermented, so say tofu is inferior in overall
> nutritional benefits to tempeh for example, but I would go on to say it was
> detrimental to eat tofu as part of a meal.
> Soya does has an affect on iodine & therefore thyroid can be affected if
> you
> don't take the trouble to eat iodine rich foods, seaweed etc. I don't
> recommend going overboard with iodine & I especially don't recommend those
> mega-dose iodine pills, as one old method of shutting down over-active
> thyroids used to be mega-doses of iodine (it's a case of too little is
> bad/too much is bad!). I've also tended towards getting a decent amount of
> selenium daily as it aids in iodine utilisation, but appears to minimise
> any
> bad effects iodine can have on the body, in fact selenium is something you
> should be taking if you've been on high iodine or are concerned about
> iodine
> being too high in your diet for some reason (it won't guarantee you'll not
> suffer thyroid issues, but it will lessen the chances, especially if you've
> believed the hype & taken mega-doses of iodine for a while). I suggest a
> little kelp powder or other iodine rich food daily, not need to go mad, I
> also have a couple (2 to 4) brazil nuts a day for selenium (I'd consider a
> supplement if I'd mega-dosed on iodine).
> The brain aging thing was a fault of the study - I haven't got it to hand,
> but I remember there was some dubious aspects to the study that were
> glaringly obvious when you read it (I've just swapped over to a new
> computer, so I've not got much research to hand), but they were ingesting
> something that made the study worthless, when you read the full study you
> just went "What! you're kidding me right!" as it was so obvious there were
> causes outside of any soya intake, sorry I can't give details from memory
> :-(
> The vast majority of studies show soya in most forms to be anti-cancer,
> rather than cancer promoting, depending on the phyto-nutrient content. Yes
> a few studies showing isolated amounts of phyto-nutrients in vast amounts
> have shown cancer promoting properties, but you can't eat that kind of
> amount from any food, you'd need to purify the phyto-nutrients & shovel it
> in to get those results.
> Obviously this is where we stand now, I don't say there is no chance that
> in
> the future we may find out it does promote some form (or forms) of cancer,
> but the evidence isn't there right now. I consider soya a food option, like
> most other foods & include it like I would any food. I don't tend to take
> soya protein powder, not because I think it's bad, as such, but because I
> drink soya milk on occasion & have tofu, tempeh & miso at times, so don't
> want too much of any one food in my system.
> I know that I haven't referenced this, but you can find studies for &
> against every product (meat, dairy, most types of vegetables, probably even
> water!). I believe the bulk of evidence supports that if you don't go
> overboard & have soya-everything, then you'll be ok & won't suffer by
> eating
> a lump of tofu, or a having a glass of soya milk (unless you've got soya
> issues), just be sensible & use it as just another food choice- don't fall
> for the hype that it's a super food as it's not got anything super-special
> about it.
> Obviously if you're trying to heal a condition through your nutritional
> choices then that's a whole different ball-game & you need expert help to
> design a dietary program, but for the 'average Jo(e)' it would appear to be
> fine to eat soya foods as part of a balanced diet in my view.
>
> Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuildi ng.org
>
>
> 2009/11/23 Pat Reeves <pat@foodalive. org>
>
> > Hi!
> > This email directed to myself and responding as such is this: Fermented
> soy
> > is the only version that does not provoke any detrimental problems. What
> > are
> > you trying to heal? - Can I provide an optimal plan for? Processed soy -
> as
> > protein input, as 'milk' etc is in no way a 'heath food'. Do re-contact
> if
> > I
> > can further help you. Regards from UK, Pat.
> >
> > 2009/11/23 mitch <mitchseaman2000@ yahoo.com>
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A good friend of mine at work sent me this. Leaving aside that no
> studies
> > > whatsoever are cited, any thoughts? Any quick links to peer-reviewed
> > studies
> > > that debunk this?
> > >
> > > <In Japan, we eat soy all the time. For breakfast we have rice with
> natto
> > > and miso soup with tofu; for dinner we pop edamame into our mouths in
> > > between chopsticks-full of vegetables sauteed in soy sauce. I always
> > assumed
> > > it was good for you, until I came to California and my health-conscious
> > > American friend told me that soy was actually really bad for you. So
> > which
> > > is it?
> > >
> > > Here's what we know about soy: unprocessed, it's a great source of
> > > digestible protein and has tons of vitamin B, calcium, and folate all
> > things
> > > that are good for you. It also contains isoflavones, and here's where
> > things
> > > get tricky. Some studies prove that isoflavones are beneficial, while
> > others
> > > have shown that it promotes breast and prostate cancer. Soy has also
> been
> > > called out as an agent of brain cell aging and thyroid dysfunction,
> too.
> > >
> > > In her recent book The Jungle Effect, San Francisco-based physician
> > Daphne
> > > Miller who studied low cancer rates in Okinawa extensively writes:
> > >
> > > While Okinawans take in over 80 percent of their soy in a relatively
> > > unprocessed form as tofu, edamame, soy flour, soy milk, or miso, people
> > in
> > > the United States eat a similiar percentage of their soy in a processed
> > > form. Our soy foods are heated, mashed, and denatured to create a vast
> > array
> > > of substances ranging from Tofurky to fillers for tuna fish to
> ice-cream
> > > sandwiches.. . while whole foods offer valuable protection,
> concentrated
> > or
> > > denatured derivatives of these foods are having the opposite effect.
> > >
> > > The bottom line, at least for now, seems to be that good soy prevent
> > cancer
> > > and bad soy might promote cancer. Good soy = tofu, soy sauce, miso,
> > natto,
> > > edamame. Bad soy = soy protein powder, energy bars made with soy, fake
> > hot
> > > dogs, tofurky.
> > >
> > > A lot of Western people think natto fermented soy bean is gross because
> > of
> > > it's gooey texture and stinky smell, but it's one of my favorite things
> > to
> > > eat for breakfast. It's filled with protein and great for a
> post-workout
> > > snack, too. If you're still iffy about it, why not combine the foreign
> > with
> > > the familiar and cook some natto spaghetti? The slippery texture of the
> > > pasta cuts the gooeyness a little, and in my opinion this is a gentle
> way
> > to
> > > ease natto into your culinary life.>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional and Functional Medicine.
> > For latest info on living foods and courses, please view my website
> > www.foodalive. org or email me at pat@foodalive. org.
> > FULL MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR APPLIED NUTRITION AND
> > NUTRITIONAL
> > THERAPY. Registered with Nutritional Therapy Council.
> > *"MY LONG-AWAITED BOOK - "A LIVING MIRACLE" IS NOW AVAILABLE - PLEASE SEE
> > WEBSITE FOR DETAILS"*
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ------
> >
> > ------------ --------- --------- ---
> > http://www.veganbod ybuilding. org
> > http://veganbodybui lding.blogspot. com/
> > http://veganbodybui lding.userboard. net/Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks! As usual, super helpful response.

Also, while i'm bothering everybody, i was wondering if my pre-workout
glutamine/arginine/bcaa's needed to be separated out at all. Right now i take
the arginine and glutamine about 30 minutes before i start, and then the bcaa's
like right before. It dawned on me the other day that i can't remember why i
started doing that, I probably just read something somewhere. Is there any
reason to do that that you know of, or should i just take all of them like 30
minutes before, or right before?


-m





________________________________
From: Vegan Bodybuilding <pete@...>
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, November 23, 2009 4:52:55 PM
Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] soy


Pat is right about fermented being superior, I wouldn't go so far personally
to say it was detrimental to eat anything other than fermented soya, but I
would say it's inferior to fermented, so say tofu is inferior in overall
nutritional benefits to tempeh for example, but I would go on to say it was
detrimental to eat tofu as part of a meal.
Soya does has an affect on iodine & therefore thyroid can be affected if you
don't take the trouble to eat iodine rich foods, seaweed etc.  I don't
recommend going overboard with iodine & I especially don't recommend those
mega-dose iodine pills, as one old method of shutting down over-active
thyroids used to be mega-doses of iodine (it's a case of too little is
bad/too much is bad!).  I've also tended towards getting a decent amount of
selenium daily as it aids in iodine utilisation, but appears to minimise any
bad effects iodine can have on the body, in fact selenium is something you
should be taking if you've been on high iodine or are concerned about iodine
being too high in your diet for some reason (it won't guarantee you'll not
suffer thyroid issues, but it will lessen the chances, especially if you've
believed the hype & taken mega-doses of iodine for a while).  I suggest a
little kelp powder or other iodine rich food daily, not need to go mad, I
also have a couple (2 to 4) brazil nuts a day for selenium (I'd consider a
supplement if I'd mega-dosed on iodine).
The brain aging thing was a fault of the study - I haven't got it to hand,
but I remember there was some dubious aspects to the study that were
glaringly obvious when you read it (I've just swapped over to a new
computer, so I've not got much research to hand), but they were ingesting
something that made the study worthless, when you read the full study you
just went "What! you're kidding me right!" as it was so obvious there were
causes outside of any soya intake, sorry I can't give details from memory
:-(
The vast majority of studies show soya in most forms to be anti-cancer,
rather than cancer promoting, depending on the phyto-nutrient content.  Yes
a few studies showing isolated amounts of phyto-nutrients in vast amounts
have shown cancer promoting properties, but you can't eat that kind of
amount from any food, you'd need to purify the phyto-nutrients & shovel it
in to get those results.
Obviously this is where we stand now, I don't say there is no chance that in
the future we may find out it does promote some form (or forms) of cancer,
but the evidence isn't there right now.  I consider soya a food option, like
most other foods & include it like I would any food.  I don't tend to take
soya protein powder, not because I think it's bad, as such, but because I
drink soya milk on occasion & have tofu, tempeh & miso at times, so don't
want too much of any one food in my system.
I know that I haven't referenced this, but you can find studies for &
against every product (meat, dairy, most types of vegetables, probably even
water!).  I believe the bulk of evidence supports that if you don't go
overboard & have soya-everything, then you'll be ok & won't suffer by eating
a lump of tofu, or a having a glass of soya milk (unless you've got soya
issues), just be sensible & use it as just another food choice- don't fall
for the hype that it's a super food as it's not got anything super-special
about it.
Obviously if you're trying to heal a condition through your nutritional
choices then that's a whole different ball-game & you need expert help to
design a dietary program, but for the 'average Jo(e)' it would appear to be
fine to eat soya foods as part of a balanced diet in my view.

Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuildi ng.org

2009/11/23 Pat Reeves <pat@foodalive. org>

> Hi!
> This email directed to myself and responding as such is this: Fermented soy
> is the only version that does not provoke any detrimental problems. What
> are
> you trying to heal? - Can I provide an optimal plan for? Processed soy - as
> protein input, as 'milk' etc is in no way a 'heath food'. Do re-contact if
> I
> can further help you. Regards from UK, Pat.
>
> 2009/11/23 mitch <mitchseaman2000@ yahoo.com>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > A good friend of mine at work sent me this. Leaving aside that no studies
> > whatsoever are cited, any thoughts? Any quick links to peer-reviewed
> studies
> > that debunk this?
> >
> > <In Japan, we eat soy all the time. For breakfast we have rice with natto
> > and miso soup with tofu; for dinner we pop edamame into our mouths in
> > between chopsticks-full of vegetables sauteed in soy sauce. I always
> assumed
> > it was good for you, until I came to California and my health-conscious
> > American friend told me that soy was actually really bad for you. So
> which
> > is it?
> >
> > Here's what we know about soy: unprocessed, it's a great source of
> > digestible protein and has tons of vitamin B, calcium, and folate all
> things
> > that are good for you. It also contains isoflavones, and here's where
> things
> > get tricky. Some studies prove that isoflavones are beneficial, while
> others
> > have shown that it promotes breast and prostate cancer. Soy has also been
> > called out as an agent of brain cell aging and thyroid dysfunction, too.
> >
> > In her recent book The Jungle Effect, San Francisco-based physician
> Daphne
> > Miller who studied low cancer rates in Okinawa extensively writes:
> >
> > While Okinawans take in over 80 percent of their soy in a relatively
> > unprocessed form as tofu, edamame, soy flour, soy milk, or miso, people
> in
> > the United States eat a similiar percentage of their soy in a processed
> > form. Our soy foods are heated, mashed, and denatured to create a vast
> array
> > of substances ranging from Tofurky to fillers for tuna fish to ice-cream
> > sandwiches.. . while whole foods offer valuable protection, concentrated
> or
> > denatured derivatives of these foods are having the opposite effect.
> >
> > The bottom line, at least for now, seems to be that good soy prevent
> cancer
> > and bad soy might promote cancer. Good soy = tofu, soy sauce, miso,
> natto,
> > edamame. Bad soy = soy protein powder, energy bars made with soy, fake
> hot
> > dogs, tofurky.
> >
> > A lot of Western people think natto fermented soy bean is gross because
> of
> > it's gooey texture and stinky smell, but it's one of my favorite things
> to
> > eat for breakfast. It's filled with protein and great for a post-workout
> > snack, too. If you're still iffy about it, why not combine the foreign
> with
> > the familiar and cook some natto spaghetti? The slippery texture of the
> > pasta cuts the gooeyness a little, and in my opinion this is a gentle way
> to
> > ease natto into your culinary life.>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional and Functional Medicine.
> For latest info on living foods and courses, please view my website
> www.foodalive. org or email me at pat@foodalive. org.
> FULL MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR APPLIED NUTRITION AND
> NUTRITIONAL
> THERAPY. Registered with Nutritional Therapy Council.
> *"MY LONG-AWAITED BOOK - "A LIVING MIRACLE" IS NOW AVAILABLE - PLEASE SEE
> WEBSITE FOR DETAILS"*
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>
> ------------ --------- --------- ---
> http://www.veganbod ybuilding. org
> http://veganbodybui lding.blogspot. com/
> http://veganbodybui lding.userboard. net/Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat is right about fermented being superior, I wouldn't go so far personally
to say it was detrimental to eat anything other than fermented soya, but I
would say it's inferior to fermented, so say tofu is inferior in overall
nutritional benefits to tempeh for example, but I would go on to say it was
detrimental to eat tofu as part of a meal.
Soya does has an affect on iodine & therefore thyroid can be affected if you
don't take the trouble to eat iodine rich foods, seaweed etc.  I don't
recommend going overboard with iodine & I especially don't recommend those
mega-dose iodine pills, as one old method of shutting down over-active
thyroids used to be mega-doses of iodine (it's a case of too little is
bad/too much is bad!).  I've also tended towards getting a decent amount of
selenium daily as it aids in iodine utilisation, but appears to minimise any
bad effects iodine can have on the body, in fact selenium is something you
should be taking if you've been on high iodine or are concerned about iodine
being too high in your diet for some reason (it won't guarantee you'll not
suffer thyroid issues, but it will lessen the chances, especially if you've
believed the hype & taken mega-doses of iodine for a while).  I suggest a
little kelp powder or other iodine rich food daily, not need to go mad, I
also have a couple (2 to 4) brazil nuts a day for selenium (I'd consider a
supplement if I'd mega-dosed on iodine).
The brain aging thing was a fault of the study - I haven't got it to hand,
but I remember there was some dubious aspects to the study that were
glaringly obvious when you read it (I've just swapped over to a new
computer, so I've not got much research to hand), but they were ingesting
something that made the study worthless, when you read the full study you
just went "What! you're kidding me right!" as it was so obvious there were
causes outside of any soya intake, sorry I can't give details from memory
:-(
The vast majority of studies show soya in most forms to be anti-cancer,
rather than cancer promoting, depending on the phyto-nutrient content.  Yes
a few studies showing isolated amounts of phyto-nutrients in vast amounts
have shown cancer promoting properties, but you can't eat that kind of
amount from any food, you'd need to purify the phyto-nutrients & shovel it
in to get those results.
Obviously this is where we stand now, I don't say there is no chance that in
the future we may find out it does promote some form (or forms) of cancer,
but the evidence isn't there right now.  I consider soya a food option, like
most other foods & include it like I would any food.  I don't tend to take
soya protein powder, not because I think it's bad, as such, but because I
drink soya milk on occasion & have tofu, tempeh & miso at times, so don't
want too much of any one food in my system.
I know that I haven't referenced this, but you can find studies for &
against every product (meat, dairy, most types of vegetables, probably even
water!).  I believe the bulk of evidence supports that if you don't go
overboard & have soya-everything, then you'll be ok & won't suffer by eating
a lump of tofu, or a having a glass of soya milk (unless you've got soya
issues), just be sensible & use it as just another food choice- don't fall
for the hype that it's a super food as it's not got anything super-special
about it.
Obviously if you're trying to heal a condition through your nutritional
choices then that's a whole different ball-game & you need expert help to
design a dietary program, but for the 'average Jo(e)' it would appear to be
fine to eat soya foods as part of a balanced diet in my view.

Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuilding.org



2009/11/23 Pat Reeves <pat@...>

> Hi!
> This email directed to myself and responding as such is this: Fermented soy
> is the only version that does not provoke any detrimental problems. What
> are
> you trying to heal? - Can I provide an optimal plan for? Processed soy - as
> protein input, as 'milk' etc is in no way a 'heath food'. Do re-contact if
> I
> can further help you. Regards from UK, Pat.
>
> 2009/11/23 mitch <mitchseaman2000@...>
>
> >
> >
> >
> > A good friend of mine at work sent me this. Leaving aside that no studies
> > whatsoever are cited, any thoughts? Any quick links to peer-reviewed
> studies
> > that debunk this?
> >
> > <In Japan, we eat soy all the time. For breakfast we have rice with natto
> > and miso soup with tofu; for dinner we pop edamame into our mouths in
> > between chopsticks-full of vegetables sauteed in soy sauce. I always
> assumed
> > it was good for you, until I came to California and my health-conscious
> > American friend told me that soy was actually really bad for you. So
> which
> > is it?
> >
> > Here's what we know about soy: unprocessed, it's a great source of
> > digestible protein and has tons of vitamin B, calcium, and folate all
> things
> > that are good for you. It also contains isoflavones, and here's where
> things
> > get tricky. Some studies prove that isoflavones are beneficial, while
> others
> > have shown that it promotes breast and prostate cancer. Soy has also been
> > called out as an agent of brain cell aging and thyroid dysfunction, too.
> >
> > In her recent book The Jungle Effect, San Francisco-based physician
> Daphne
> > Miller who studied low cancer rates in Okinawa extensively writes:
> >
> > While Okinawans take in over 80 percent of their soy in a relatively
> > unprocessed form as tofu, edamame, soy flour, soy milk, or miso, people
> in
> > the United States eat a similiar percentage of their soy in a processed
> > form. Our soy foods are heated, mashed, and denatured to create a vast
> array
> > of substances ranging from Tofurky to fillers for tuna fish to ice-cream
> > sandwiches... while whole foods offer valuable protection, concentrated
> or
> > denatured derivatives of these foods are having the opposite effect.
> >
> > The bottom line, at least for now, seems to be that good soy prevent
> cancer
> > and bad soy might promote cancer. Good soy = tofu, soy sauce, miso,
> natto,
> > edamame. Bad soy = soy protein powder, energy bars made with soy, fake
> hot
> > dogs, tofurky.
> >
> > A lot of Western people think natto fermented soy bean is gross because
> of
> > it's gooey texture and stinky smell, but it's one of my favorite things
> to
> > eat for breakfast. It's filled with protein and great for a post-workout
> > snack, too. If you're still iffy about it, why not combine the foreign
> with
> > the familiar and cook some natto spaghetti? The slippery texture of the
> > pasta cuts the gooeyness a little, and in my opinion this is a gentle way
> to
> > ease natto into your culinary life.>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional and Functional Medicine.
> For latest info on living foods and courses, please view my website
> www.foodalive.org or email me at pat@....
> FULL MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR APPLIED NUTRITION AND
> NUTRITIONAL
> THERAPY. Registered with Nutritional Therapy Council.
> *"MY LONG-AWAITED BOOK - "A LIVING MIRACLE" IS NOW AVAILABLE - PLEASE SEE
> WEBSITE FOR DETAILS"*
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
> http://veganbodybuilding.blogspot.com/
> http://veganbodybuilding.userboard.net/Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!
This email directed to myself and responding as such is this: Fermented soy
is the only version that does not provoke any detrimental problems. What are
you trying to heal? - Can I provide an optimal plan for? Processed soy - as
protein input, as 'milk' etc is in no way a 'heath food'. Do re-contact if I
can further help you. Regards from UK, Pat.

2009/11/23 mitch <mitchseaman2000@...>

>
>
>
> A good friend of mine at work sent me this. Leaving aside that no studies
> whatsoever are cited, any thoughts? Any quick links to peer-reviewed studies
> that debunk this?
>
> <In Japan, we eat soy all the time. For breakfast we have rice with natto
> and miso soup with tofu; for dinner we pop edamame into our mouths in
> between chopsticks-full of vegetables sauteed in soy sauce. I always assumed
> it was good for you, until I came to California and my health-conscious
> American friend told me that soy was actually really bad for you. So which
> is it?
>
> Here's what we know about soy: unprocessed, it's a great source of
> digestible protein and has tons of vitamin B, calcium, and folate all things
> that are good for you. It also contains isoflavones, and here's where things
> get tricky. Some studies prove that isoflavones are beneficial, while others
> have shown that it promotes breast and prostate cancer. Soy has also been
> called out as an agent of brain cell aging and thyroid dysfunction, too.
>
> In her recent book The Jungle Effect, San Francisco-based physician Daphne
> Miller who studied low cancer rates in Okinawa extensively writes:
>
> While Okinawans take in over 80 percent of their soy in a relatively
> unprocessed form as tofu, edamame, soy flour, soy milk, or miso, people in
> the United States eat a similiar percentage of their soy in a processed
> form. Our soy foods are heated, mashed, and denatured to create a vast array
> of substances ranging from Tofurky to fillers for tuna fish to ice-cream
> sandwiches... while whole foods offer valuable protection, concentrated or
> denatured derivatives of these foods are having the opposite effect.
>
> The bottom line, at least for now, seems to be that good soy prevent cancer
> and bad soy might promote cancer. Good soy = tofu, soy sauce, miso, natto,
> edamame. Bad soy = soy protein powder, energy bars made with soy, fake hot
> dogs, tofurky.
>
> A lot of Western people think natto fermented soy bean is gross because of
> it's gooey texture and stinky smell, but it's one of my favorite things to
> eat for breakfast. It's filled with protein and great for a post-workout
> snack, too. If you're still iffy about it, why not combine the foreign with
> the familiar and cook some natto spaghetti? The slippery texture of the
> pasta cuts the gooeyness a little, and in my opinion this is a gentle way to
> ease natto into your culinary life.>
>
>
>



--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional and Functional Medicine.
For latest info on living foods and courses, please view my website
www.foodalive.org or email me at pat@....
FULL MEMBER OF THE BRITISH ASSOCIATION FOR APPLIED NUTRITION AND NUTRITIONAL
THERAPY. Registered with Nutritional Therapy Council.
*"MY LONG-AWAITED BOOK - "A LIVING MIRACLE" IS NOW AVAILABLE - PLEASE SEE
WEBSITE FOR DETAILS"*


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A good friend of mine at work sent me this. Leaving aside that no studies
whatsoever are cited, any thoughts? Any quick links to peer-reviewed studies
that debunk this?


<In Japan, we eat soy all the time. For breakfast we have rice with natto and
miso soup with tofu; for dinner we pop edamame into our mouths in between
chopsticks-full of vegetables sauteed in soy sauce. I always assumed it was good
for you, until I came to California and my health-conscious American friend told
me that soy was actually really bad for you. So which is it?

Here's what we know about soy: unprocessed, it's a great source of digestible
protein and has tons of vitamin B, calcium, and folate  all things that are good
for you. It also contains isoflavones, and here's where things get tricky. Some
studies prove that isoflavones are beneficial, while others have shown that it
promotes breast and prostate cancer. Soy has also been called out as an agent of
brain cell aging and thyroid dysfunction, too.

In her recent book The Jungle Effect, San Francisco-based physician Daphne
Miller  who studied low cancer rates in Okinawa extensively  writes:

While Okinawans take in over 80 percent of their soy in a relatively unprocessed
form as tofu, edamame, soy flour, soy milk, or miso, people in the United States
eat a similiar percentage of their soy in a processed form. Our soy foods are
heated, mashed, and denatured to create a vast array of substances ranging from
Tofurky to fillers for tuna fish to ice-cream sandwiches... while whole foods
offer valuable protection, concentrated or denatured derivatives of these foods
are having the opposite effect.

The bottom line, at least for now, seems to be that good soy prevent cancer and
bad soy might promote cancer. Good soy = tofu, soy sauce, miso, natto, edamame.
Bad soy = soy protein powder, energy bars made with soy, fake hot dogs, tofurky.

A lot of Western people think natto  fermented soy bean  is gross because of
it's gooey texture and stinky smell, but it's one of my favorite things to eat
for breakfast. It's filled with protein and great for a post-workout snack, too.
If you're still iffy about it, why not combine the foreign with the familiar and
cook some natto spaghetti? The slippery texture of the pasta cuts the gooeyness
a little, and in my opinion this is a gentle way to ease natto into your
culinary life.>

Basically as you are embarking on a new training routine you are responding
rapidly.  This is through some muscle growth.  Often this will come before
any really noticeable fat loss.  Yes it can be freaky.  You probably got it
in the legs most as the spinning class focusses on the legs & the high reps
will trigger non-contractile areas of muscle, so you'll be increasing
mitochondria proliferation, increased glycogen storage etc all off which
increase the size of the overall muscle tissue.  I've found most women do
better with lower reps, longer rest & more weight, this tends to build
mainly the contractile regions of the muscle (this causes the smallest
actual growth in muscle size), with separate cardio sessions, but everyone
is different, so you have to monitor how you feel & respond not just your
training, but how your diet varies, how you feel during & between training
sessions, having regular weekly photos taken at the same time (first thing
before you eat is best) , in the same swim wear or under wear (something
that shows off the upper leg & stomach), doing the same pose, in the same
place (so you can accurately compare how you are getting on).  Also scale
weight (although as muscle weighs so much more than fat, you can be adding
weight, but shrinking in size) & how belts or trousers fit around the waist
(although you can & do add some girth, over time around the back & to the
abs themselves, generally waist girth shouldn't increase unless you are
intending to bulk up).
I'd say monitor what you are eating, just to make sure your training isn't
being used as an excuse to over eat, if not then give the fat some time
to dissipate & uncover the new legs you're developing.  If this doesn't
happen it will be easy enough to swap the training & diet around to slim
then down, but for now keep at it.

All the best,

Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuilding.org


009/11/13 Jennifer Hafen <jenhafen@...>

>
>
> I have just started lifting weights (about 2 weeks) and I have been
> taking (hardcore) spinning classes for the past 2 - 3 weeks. My pants
> are all fitting tight - and I'm wondering if my muscles are swollen or
> something? I am still eating my normal "McDougall" (vegan) way, my
> goal is to gain more muscle and lose some flabbiness in my lower
> body. Any encouragement out there? This is the reason so many women
> give up lifting weights I think, they freak out when their pants get
> tight - but I don't want to do that - I want to see what happens to my
> body!
>
> Thanks!
>
> J
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I have just started lifting weights (about 2 weeks) and I have been
taking (hardcore) spinning classes for the past 2 - 3 weeks.  My pants
are all fitting tight - and I'm wondering if my muscles are swollen or
something?  I am still eating my normal "McDougall"  (vegan) way,  my
goal is to gain more muscle and lose some flabbiness in my lower
body.  Any encouragement out there?  This is the reason so many women
give up lifting weights I think, they freak out when their pants get
tight - but I don't want to do that - I want to see what happens to my
body!

Thanks!

J

Thank you for the kind words...Three years...

-Tom

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: susan garrett
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2009 9:05 AM
   Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Re: Tom Rogers update...



   Wow Tom, impressive shots, very inspiring, thanks for posting! How long
   have you been working towards those goals?

   Susan




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Wow Tom, impressive shots, very inspiring, thanks for posting!  How long
have you been working towards those goals?

Susan

Hi Tom,
well done mate!  That is fantastic for a first contest (in fact top 3 is ace
ANY contest!).  Now's the time to do 2 things, first if you're after extra
mass post-diet is the ideal time as you'll get some 'rebound' that will
allow for faster lean mass gain than normal (don't go crazy eating, but
certainly go to a reasonable surplus), second is to reflect on how you did
honestly, while it's fresh write down what you did right & what you felt you
did wrong, then next time you can try to rectify the errors & coming just
that little bit better.
Once again Tom an ace result & along with the 2 things above take a little
time to 'smell the roses', enjoy the result, & revel in hitting top 3 first
time out (again that is an amazing achievement!)
All the best & look forward to your future events :-)

Pete Ryan www.veganbodybuilding.org

2009/11/10 Tom Rogers <trogersne@...>

>
>
> Just to let you all know, my first bodybuilding contest was this past
> Saturday. I took 3rd place Masters 40 !!! I am VERY happy, I met both
> personal goals I had. 1) to look like I belong on stage with the other
> bodybuilders, and 2) to place in the top 3.
>
> Got a very, very nice trophy; 2 huge goody bags with my favorite protein;
> had a ton of fun; learned a lot about myself and contest dieting/prep;
> ready
> to build lean mass now and possibly compete next year - if I can do it
> using
> a high carb approach.
>
> I will try to upload some pics to the Yahoo Group site.
>
> Thanx for all the help and motivation.this was the hardest thing I ever had
> to do but one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.
>
> -Tom Rogers
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pics are posted on the Yahoo Group site !



-Tom





From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Rogers
Sent: Monday, November 09, 2009 9:58 PM
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Tom Rogers update...





Just to let you all know, my first bodybuilding contest was this past
Saturday. I took 3rd place Masters 40 !!! I am VERY happy, I met both
personal goals I had. 1) to look like I belong on stage with the other
bodybuilders, and 2) to place in the top 3.

Got a very, very nice trophy; 2 huge goody bags with my favorite protein;
had a ton of fun; learned a lot about myself and contest dieting/prep; ready
to build lean mass now and possibly compete next year - if I can do it using
a high carb approach.

I will try to upload some pics to the Yahoo Group site.

Thanx for all the help and motivation.this was the hardest thing I ever had
to do but one of the most rewarding experiences of my life.

-Tom Rogers

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]