Hi there all,

   I have to disagree big time, I have used a bodyfat monitor for over three
years now and find them very accurate, actually I took a 95 mile drive two years
ago, to have my bodyfat weighed in water, and the difference between the
handheld, was not worth worrying about, however please read the below on how to
take reading.

   I use a hand held, only accurate, and very accurate, if you take the readings
at the same time each day, and follow my guide lines.



   if you take a reading in the morning it will give you a lower reading than at
early evening.



   If you have been drinking alcohol the night before it will give you a low
reading, so do not take then ok.



   Take the reading at the same time, I take in the morning, as soon as you get
up, before drinking, peeing or the other one or washing, take as soon as you get
up, take three readings like that, you will find all three, pretty spot on, and
then just take a reading at the same time, once a day each week.



   Wayne



   Hi Deanna,

   first of all I'd forget those scales that tell you what fat % you are, they
   are rubbish & depend on so many factors that there's no way to know how much
   fat you're carrying or how your fat% is doing, so don't take the result as
   written in stone.
   My favourite way of keeping an eye on fat levels is to buy callipers, if
   your aim is to lose fat, then you can simply measure your body every week or
   so & if you do it the same way each time you can see, for sure, that the fat
   is dropping off!
   But for now let's assume you are indeed 21% fat is ok for fat, just a touch
   above the average for what I'd call a normal "fit" person"of any age, so
   you're ok, if the measurement is right..
   If you want some idea about if you are eating the right amount of calories
   there is a way to get some idea of your calorific needs, this is very much
   an "average" thing & it may need some tinkering to get results, but see how
   your diet measures up, here we go:

   This is for women only & I'll use 21% bodyfat as an assumption (different
   fat%'s use different numbers so don't just copy this, if some of you want
   your own versions I'll put up all the variables for you to look at)

   .9 x 50.9Kg x 24 = 1099.44
   women with fat between 18-28% need to multiply by .95, so
   1099.44x.95=1044.467

   So, your BMR (basal metabolic rate) needs 1044.5 calories approx to get
   by-i.e. if all you did was sit around all day to survive you will use that
   may calories a day.

   Now, we have to factor in your activity levels as you're about in the
   average fitness buffs range I'll give you 1.65, so we multiply your BMR by
   that:

   1044.5 x 1.65=1723 approx, so around about the 1700 to 1800cal mark would be
   a good starting point for you to aim at.  A breakdown of how much you should
   have as fat carbs & protein are available from my download about nutrition
   from (this download contains an easier version of calculating your calories
   without taking into account bodyfat levels) from
   http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/guides.htm you need MS Word or acrobat to
   read these.
   Maybe some of the others can share how they lowered their fat % with you?

   Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

   PS 40 isn't a problem I'm 40 today as it happens & I don't intend to modify
   my goals due to an arbitrary number
     -----Original Message-----
     From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Deanna St.Croix
     Sent: 26 January 2006 12:58
     To: Veganbodybuilding
     Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Question about BMI and what level of fat is
   normal


     I just had my BMI done again, using a scale at the gym. I knew I felt that
   I
     have gained fat percentage but
     I wasn't sure. The scale said I had a 21 percent fat percentage. I weigh
   122
     pounds and am 5'5" and I work out
     with weights 3- 4 times per week.

     My question is, how do I decrease the fat percentage? My diet is fine. I
     don't overeat, I am actually a size zero,
     so to look at me no one ever guesses how much I weigh. What can I do to
     decrease the fat percentage? More cardio? If I do more
     cardio will it have an effect on my goal of trying to get more muscle
   mass?
     I'm at a loss here.

     What is considered normal or athletic fat percentage for a 40 year old
   woman
     with my stats? And what can I do to ensure
     I do not lose muscle and at the same time decrease the fat percentage?

     Thanks everyone!

     Deanna



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Make sure you're doing the main exercises that have the highest
anabolic response, such as squats and deadlifts.  Your program
should have mainly compound movements like those and bench press,
dips, pullups and or lat pulldowns, etc.  Use heavy weights and lift
to positive failure, when you can't do another rep no matter what.
Also, add a set or two of high reps, 10-15 reps, to gain more muscle
size.
Try increasing your tesosterone.  That will increase your body's
ability to gain more muscle mass.  High fat increases testosterone,
especially monounsaturated fats and saturated fat.  Monounsaturated
fat is in nuts, seeds, olives and avocados.  Macadamia nuts have the
most, then hazelnuts, olive oil, pistachios, almonds, pecans,
cashews and brazil nuts.  Coconut oil and chocolate has saturated
fat.  If you use chocolate look for dark chocolate with the highest
cacao content.  I sometimes buy organic Dagoba dark chocolate with
87% cacao content and only 8 grams of sugar per 2oz. bar, the sugar
is natural evaporated cane juice.  I think it helps me when I eat
one a while before my workout, probably because chocolate releases
endorphins.  I also buy raw cacao beans.
I think I heard 60 grams a day of monounsaturated fat is best for
increasing testosterone.  That's not hard to get since half a cup of
macadamia nuts is 39 grams of monounsaturated fat, pecans have 22
grams per 1/2 cup, an avocado has 17g, olive oil has 11g per
tablespoon.
Just add a couple tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil a day to
your diet, around 1/2 a cup of nuts, a couple avocados, and 2-4
tablespoons of virgin coconut oil.
Lately I've been using raw hemp seed protein as well.


--- In veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com, "genesin2000"
<genesin2000@y...> wrote:
>
> For my six foot six inch build I'm a bit on the lean side.
>
> I've made a 50 dollar bet with a local guy that I can make
significant
> muscle gains by March 10.  He refuses to acknowledge that vegans
can
> gain a lot of mass.
>
> If anyone knows any really good tips for gaining muscle, whether
it's
> a variation of sets, diet, additives, etc, then please let me know
> about it.  I need to back on some mass and show this bozo that a
vegan
> can put on the same sort of mass.
>
> My body type appears to be mesomorphic so I think I've got a good
edge
> right out of the gates.
>

Hi Everyone!
	 Just returned from Cheltenham where I have been conducting seminars
with Philip Day - and have an enormous email backlog!  Re above: I feel
everyone can tell whether their body fat percentage is too high - and if
they can't - it is probably ok.  However - is everyone happy with just
'ok'?  For the competitive 'fiend' - the platform demands around 2% for
the guys and 4% for women - that was the criteria when I was competing
as a body builder, as opposed to a power lifter.  These figures can only
be maintained for very short periods - as I'm sure my friend Robbie
Hazeley will concur!
	 I have taken the representatives of Tanita to task with their
weight/b/fat scales and, though they have produced an 'athletic' version
- they assure me that these are inappropriate for bodybuilders as they
will always show a higher fat to muscle ratio.  Like Pete, I prefer to
use the caliper system.  It is not affected by fluid levels (as
electrical impedence - Tanita - methods do) is cheap, simple and
evaluative.  Reducing the amount of fat one eats tends to reduce fat in
middle area - particularly with guys.  Refined carbos always promote
fat-production - does one really need to eat those things?! - Sugar -
and alcohol - equates with excess fat storage!
	 Electrical impedence is connected to the amount of fluid detected at
any one time, therefore, if used, to be accurate the time of day needs
to be consistent.  Wayne has already given what works for him.  Early
morning is easy in this respect.
	 I have today taken the decision to compete on 4th Feb at West Mids
Championship allowing me, if successful, to  retain my title with the
BDFPA - which will lead to hopefully a 2006 British success.  I will be
lifting unequipped at this event - as I simply cannot sustain the pain
of an equipped squat lift on my shoulder at present. This is definitely
taking my mind of subsequent scans on tumour activity - which will
happen on Feb. 7th.  These will determine whether I have to immediately
return to German clinic for a repeat of what happened over Christmas.
Love to all - and just keep it all going. PS Happy 40th
Pete..........You are simply just arriving at your
'mid-BEST-period'...................love to all who lift!- Pat.
--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
email:   pat.reeves@...
website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy

Wow thanks for all the tips. Okay as for weights and so on, I do legs one
day, with cardio, then upper body another, with cardio,
then back and shoulders, with cardio. I always make sure to increase my
weight for each exercise until it is hard to get to the last
few reps. I was thinking of adding more cardio and lifting even heavier
weights with less reps. With calipers I have next to no body fat
as I don't even have a pot belly or love handles or even fat around my
thighs, so maybe it was the time of day and the lack of
water in that day? I'm not sure.

Someone told me today that below 12 percent fat on  a female is bad and can
effect menstruation. Is this true?

As far as food goes, I eat a lot of soy products and try to have carbs
during the day and then protein after my workouts. I eat
a lot of fruit and nuts and tofu.

Someone mentioned eating more fat. Frankly I'm a little afraid of that. I
know, perhaps irrational but I have a severe issue with food
with a high level of fat. I guess I'll have to get over this. As it is, if I
tell people I am worried about my fat percentage they laugh at me
and tell me I am too small. I guess I am at a loss as to how I can weight
122 pounds and be such a small person that when people
try to pinpoint my weight they'll usually say about 105 pounds.

I'm off now to have a look at the food recommendations you guys/gals have
specified. Thanks for all of your help. I just feel like I
am losing a battle when maybe I am in fact gaining muscle as everything fits
the same way.

So, does it sound feasible to add in more intense cardio and to life heavier
with lower reps, as well as increase my fat intake?
One more question, I never get home from the gym until usually around 8pm
and by then I am starving. Is it okay to eat that
time of night? I hear so many conflicting things about this.

Thanks again everyone and best of luck to you Pat and Happy Birthday Pete!!
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Pat Reeves
   Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:09 PM
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [bulk] [veganbodybuilding] bodyfat


   Hi Everyone!
         Just returned from Cheltenham where I have been conducting seminars
   with Philip Day - and have an enormous email backlog!  Re above: I feel
   everyone can tell whether their body fat percentage is too high - and if
   they can't - it is probably ok.  However - is everyone happy with just
   'ok'?  For the competitive 'fiend' - the platform demands around 2% for
   the guys and 4% for women - that was the criteria when I was competing
   as a body builder, as opposed to a power lifter.  These figures can only
   be maintained for very short periods - as I'm sure my friend Robbie
   Hazeley will concur!
         I have taken the representatives of Tanita to task with their
   weight/b/fat scales and, though they have produced an 'athletic' version
   - they assure me that these are inappropriate for bodybuilders as they
   will always show a higher fat to muscle ratio.  Like Pete, I prefer to
   use the caliper system.  It is not affected by fluid levels (as
   electrical impedence - Tanita - methods do) is cheap, simple and
   evaluative.  Reducing the amount of fat one eats tends to reduce fat in
   middle area - particularly with guys.  Refined carbos always promote
   fat-production - does one really need to eat those things?! - Sugar -
   and alcohol - equates with excess fat storage!
         Electrical impedence is connected to the amount of fluid detected at
   any one time, therefore, if used, to be accurate the time of day needs
   to be consistent.  Wayne has already given what works for him.  Early
   morning is easy in this respect.
         I have today taken the decision to compete on 4th Feb at West Mids
   Championship allowing me, if successful, to  retain my title with the
   BDFPA - which will lead to hopefully a 2006 British success.  I will be
   lifting unequipped at this event - as I simply cannot sustain the pain
   of an equipped squat lift on my shoulder at present. This is definitely
   taking my mind of subsequent scans on tumour activity - which will
   happen on Feb. 7th.  These will determine whether I have to immediately
   return to German clinic for a repeat of what happened over Christmas.
   Love to all - and just keep it all going. PS Happy 40th
   Pete..........You are simply just arriving at your
   'mid-BEST-period'...................love to all who lift!- Pat.
   --
   Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
   For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
   email:   pat.reeves@...
   website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
   Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy



   ---------------------------------
   http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
   http://www.veganfitness.net



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     a..  Visit your group "veganbodybuilding" on the web.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pat Reeves wrote:
> Hi Deanna!
>     Don't get 'hung-up' on body image! - this can lead to many
> problems/food issues.  As most have commented, your stats are fine as
> they are.  Certainly being down to even 15% b/f for a woman can lead to
> menstrual difficulties - which inevitably lead to a potential for
> osteoporosis in later life.  Being down to 4% for competition almost
> assuredly invites problems in later life unless adequate supplementation
> occurs.  Include all types of training in an ongoing cycle - do what you
> love!  I am not a fan of soy, unless it is fermented, i.e. tempeh,
> natto, miso.  Absolutely don't use non-organic soy products.  Too many
> nuts de-stabilize omega 3 fatty acids - do ensure a good supply of
> these.  Eat/train in accordance with what you are trying to achieve at
> any one time.  Good luck! - Pat.
>
> Deanna St.Croix wrote:
>
>> Wow thanks for all the tips. Okay as for weights and so on, I do legs one
>> day, with cardio, then upper body another, with cardio,
>> then back and shoulders, with cardio. I always make sure to increase my
>> weight for each exercise until it is hard to get to the last
>> few reps. I was thinking of adding more cardio and lifting even heavier
>> weights with less reps. With calipers I have next to no body fat
>> as I don't even have a pot belly or love handles or even fat around my
>> thighs, so maybe it was the time of day and the lack of
>> water in that day? I'm not sure.
>>
>> Someone told me today that below 12 percent fat on  a female is bad
>> and can
>> effect menstruation. Is this true?
>>
>> As far as food goes, I eat a lot of soy products and try to have carbs
>> during the day and then protein after my workouts. I eat
>> a lot of fruit and nuts and tofu.
>>
>> Someone mentioned eating more fat. Frankly I'm a little afraid of that. I
>> know, perhaps irrational but I have a severe issue with food
>> with a high level of fat. I guess I'll have to get over this. As it
>> is, if I
>> tell people I am worried about my fat percentage they laugh at me
>> and tell me I am too small. I guess I am at a loss as to how I can weight
>> 122 pounds and be such a small person that when people
>> try to pinpoint my weight they'll usually say about 105 pounds.
>>
>> I'm off now to have a look at the food recommendations you guys/gals have
>> specified. Thanks for all of your help. I just feel like I
>> am losing a battle when maybe I am in fact gaining muscle as
>> everything fits
>> the same way.
>>
>> So, does it sound feasible to add in more intense cardio and to life
>> heavier
>> with lower reps, as well as increase my fat intake?
>> One more question, I never get home from the gym until usually around 8pm
>> and by then I am starving. Is it okay to eat that
>> time of night? I hear so many conflicting things about this.
>>
>> Thanks again everyone and best of luck to you Pat and Happy Birthday
>> Pete!!
>>   -----Original Message-----
>>   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
>> [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Pat Reeves
>>   Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:09 PM
>>   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
>>   Subject: [bulk] [veganbodybuilding] bodyfat
>>
>>
>>   Hi Everyone!
>>         Just returned from Cheltenham where I have been conducting
>> seminars
>>   with Philip Day - and have an enormous email backlog!  Re above: I feel
>>   everyone can tell whether their body fat percentage is too high -
>> and if
>>   they can't - it is probably ok.  However - is everyone happy with just
>>   'ok'?  For the competitive 'fiend' - the platform demands around 2% for
>>   the guys and 4% for women - that was the criteria when I was competing
>>   as a body builder, as opposed to a power lifter.  These figures can
>> only
>>   be maintained for very short periods - as I'm sure my friend Robbie
>>   Hazeley will concur!
>>         I have taken the representatives of Tanita to task with their
>>   weight/b/fat scales and, though they have produced an 'athletic'
>> version
>>   - they assure me that these are inappropriate for bodybuilders as they
>>   will always show a higher fat to muscle ratio.  Like Pete, I prefer to
>>   use the caliper system.  It is not affected by fluid levels (as
>>   electrical impedence - Tanita - methods do) is cheap, simple and
>>   evaluative.  Reducing the amount of fat one eats tends to reduce fat in
>>   middle area - particularly with guys.  Refined carbos always promote
>>   fat-production - does one really need to eat those things?! - Sugar -
>>   and alcohol - equates with excess fat storage!
>>         Electrical impedence is connected to the amount of fluid
>> detected at
>>   any one time, therefore, if used, to be accurate the time of day needs
>>   to be consistent.  Wayne has already given what works for him.  Early
>>   morning is easy in this respect.
>>         I have today taken the decision to compete on 4th Feb at West
>> Mids
>>   Championship allowing me, if successful, to  retain my title with the
>>   BDFPA - which will lead to hopefully a 2006 British success.  I will be
>>   lifting unequipped at this event - as I simply cannot sustain the pain
>>   of an equipped squat lift on my shoulder at present. This is definitely
>>   taking my mind of subsequent scans on tumour activity - which will
>>   happen on Feb. 7th.  These will determine whether I have to immediately
>>   return to German clinic for a repeat of what happened over Christmas.
>>   Love to all - and just keep it all going. PS Happy 40th
>>   Pete..........You are simply just arriving at your
>>   'mid-BEST-period'...................love to all who lift!- Pat.
>>   --
>>   Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
>>   For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
>>   email:   pat.reeves@...
>>   website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
>>   Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy
>>
>>
>>
>>   ---------------------------------
>>   http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
>>   http://www.veganfitness.net
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
>>
>>     a..  Visit your group "veganbodybuilding" on the web.
>>
>>     b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>      veganbodybuilding-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>     c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>> Service.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
>> http://www.veganfitness.net Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
email:   pat.reeves@...
website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy

Hi Deanna,

lower fat levels can cause hormone problems for women which can cause
menstruation problems, also bone density issues.  About 11% BF is considered
essential for women long term, although going lower for contests, but coming
back up wouldn't be too bad for you (as long as the majority of the time is
spent in double figures).  The 11% is again an average, so some may need 15%
just to keep functioning long term, while others can be fine in the high
single figures, somewhere between 12-15% is a pretty safe bet for most
females, especially those wishing to gain muscle without carrying too much
fat, as you're lean enough to look like you train, but have enough fat to
allow all the metabolic processes that you need to add muscle (although you
may not get quite as much growth as a true bulk/cut style of dieting I know
99% of all women just wouldn't use that route to get bigger).
Fats, in all honesty you only really need EFA's (Essential Fatty Acids), you
can eat other types of fat & they may stimulate various hormone functions,
but only EFA's are vital.
I tend to try & eat something containing both omega 3 & omega 6 EFA's early
(first feed of the day) as omega 3 have to go through conversion processes
to get from ALA to DHA/EPA (DHA is the main fat of the brain), so I want my
brain at 100% (of it's very limited capacity, admittedly :-).  I've been
using a 50% ground flax (linseed)/50% of any of the following ground hemp,
sunflower, walnut, sesame, brazil nut, hazel nut (or most other seed/nut).
You can sprinkle onto porridge (AFTER cooking), add to cereal, add to shake,
whatever, you just bung (in my case) 2 tablespoons into a coffee grinder &
whiz & that's it.  I have also been experimenting with DHA supplements (from
sea algae-the same place fish get there's),can't say I've noticed any real
difference, but for the minority who have problems synthesising DHA from
ALA, that must be a god-send!
I'd say that you are less than 21% by a fair-bit from your description.  You
sound in your teens, fat-wise, & I'd say you don't have too much to worry
about.  Women don't generally get a 6-pack without getting very, very low in
fat, as your bodies tend to horde fat, so a "pack" wont be there to show
you've got down to a lean physique.  I usually give a description pretty
much like you describe yourself as a good goal for women to achieve, no
tummy, legs that show some definition, arm that are tight & show both tri &
bi.  Without that haggard/stringy look that compulsive dieters tend to get
who do no exercise, but starve themselves.
The weight issue is a simple one to explain.  Muscle weights more than fat.
People are used to judging weight by size.  Muscle is much more dense than
fat, so you weigh more, but are more compact, like those cars that are
crushed in those machines, the small square weighs as much as the big car,
just more compact!  I've known people to go down in size, but up in weight!
I say forget the scales.  Use the mirror & callipers to keep a check on your
fat levels, they are the best.

Thanks to Deanna everyone for the birthday greetings by the way, off to try
my new "power grabs" (a sort of glove,wrist wrap, strap kind of combination)
Robbie gave me this afternoon,see how they affect my pulling?

All the best,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Deanna St.Croix
   Sent: 27 January 2006 00:08
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [bulk] [veganbodybuilding] bodyfat


   Wow thanks for all the tips. Okay as for weights and so on, I do legs one
   day, with cardio, then upper body another, with cardio,
   then back and shoulders, with cardio. I always make sure to increase my
   weight for each exercise until it is hard to get to the last
   few reps. I was thinking of adding more cardio and lifting even heavier
   weights with less reps. With calipers I have next to no body fat
   as I don't even have a pot belly or love handles or even fat around my
   thighs, so maybe it was the time of day and the lack of
   water in that day? I'm not sure.

   Someone told me today that below 12 percent fat on  a female is bad and
can
   effect menstruation. Is this true?

   As far as food goes, I eat a lot of soy products and try to have carbs
   during the day and then protein after my workouts. I eat
   a lot of fruit and nuts and tofu.

   Someone mentioned eating more fat. Frankly I'm a little afraid of that. I
   know, perhaps irrational but I have a severe issue with food
   with a high level of fat. I guess I'll have to get over this. As it is, if
I
   tell people I am worried about my fat percentage they laugh at me
   and tell me I am too small. I guess I am at a loss as to how I can weight
   122 pounds and be such a small person that when people
   try to pinpoint my weight they'll usually say about 105 pounds.

   I'm off now to have a look at the food recommendations you guys/gals have
   specified. Thanks for all of your help. I just feel like I
   am losing a battle when maybe I am in fact gaining muscle as everything
fits
   the same way.

   So, does it sound feasible to add in more intense cardio and to life
heavier
   with lower reps, as well as increase my fat intake?
   One more question, I never get home from the gym until usually around 8pm
   and by then I am starving. Is it okay to eat that
   time of night? I hear so many conflicting things about this.

   Thanks again everyone and best of luck to you Pat and Happy Birthday
Pete!!
     -----Original Message-----
     From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Pat Reeves
     Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 5:09 PM
     To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
     Subject: [bulk] [veganbodybuilding] bodyfat


     Hi Everyone!
           Just returned from Cheltenham where I have been conducting
seminars
     with Philip Day - and have an enormous email backlog!  Re above: I feel
     everyone can tell whether their body fat percentage is too high - and if
     they can't - it is probably ok.  However - is everyone happy with just
     'ok'?  For the competitive 'fiend' - the platform demands around 2% for
     the guys and 4% for women - that was the criteria when I was competing
     as a body builder, as opposed to a power lifter.  These figures can only
     be maintained for very short periods - as I'm sure my friend Robbie
     Hazeley will concur!
           I have taken the representatives of Tanita to task with their
     weight/b/fat scales and, though they have produced an 'athletic' version
     - they assure me that these are inappropriate for bodybuilders as they
     will always show a higher fat to muscle ratio.  Like Pete, I prefer to
     use the caliper system.  It is not affected by fluid levels (as
     electrical impedence - Tanita - methods do) is cheap, simple and
     evaluative.  Reducing the amount of fat one eats tends to reduce fat in
     middle area - particularly with guys.  Refined carbos always promote
     fat-production - does one really need to eat those things?! - Sugar -
     and alcohol - equates with excess fat storage!
           Electrical impedence is connected to the amount of fluid detected
at
     any one time, therefore, if used, to be accurate the time of day needs
     to be consistent.  Wayne has already given what works for him.  Early
     morning is easy in this respect.
           I have today taken the decision to compete on 4th Feb at West Mids
     Championship allowing me, if successful, to  retain my title with the
     BDFPA - which will lead to hopefully a 2006 British success.  I will be
     lifting unequipped at this event - as I simply cannot sustain the pain
     of an equipped squat lift on my shoulder at present. This is definitely
     taking my mind of subsequent scans on tumour activity - which will
     happen on Feb. 7th.  These will determine whether I have to immediately
     return to German clinic for a repeat of what happened over Christmas.
     Love to all - and just keep it all going. PS Happy 40th
     Pete..........You are simply just arriving at your
     'mid-BEST-period'...................love to all who lift!- Pat.
     --
     Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
     For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
     email:   pat.reeves@...
     website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
     Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy



     ---------------------------------
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     http://www.veganfitness.net



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Although not directly strength related I find that flexibility is pretty
vital, so this new page may make you at least consider including some form
of flexibility training into your own weekly routines.  You don't have to
achieve the levels of the Nicole (the author), to really aid you in improved
strength & injury-proofing your body.  Have a look at
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/yoga-nicole.htm & any other thoughts form
articles you'd like to see on VBB let me know.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

Hi, all.

   Great to know it's not just me who cares about both their body and their
planet.

   I'm sure you've dealt with the B12 question but, for me as a new member, I'd
appreciate your views on this, please.

   I read that B12-tablet supplements are not absorbed unless they're the
sublingual or time-release type. I can't easily acquire either type in this
country, so would dissolving a standard B12 tablet sublingually (below the
tongue) be effective?


                                             This nonsense was brought to you by
   JOHN MACHIN
   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























---------------------------------
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,
most people are fine with  B12 powdered into their shake, or under the
tongue (buy a veggie capsule B12 & just open the capsule is easiest).  Take
at least twice a week (you can't overdose on B12, so more often isn't a
problem).  Here's a bit by our very own researcher & vegan lifter Jack
Norris http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12rec.html
Under the tongue is the best place to absorb B12 most of us have very few
B12 receptors in the rest of the alimentary canal, so swallowing pills
aren't the best way.  But yea, grinding a pill or opening a capsule &
putting under the tongue or in a shake are the best methods for everyday
usage.
Trying doing that & insuring you get a decent EFA supply daily, then it's
just the standard dietary advice about plenty of fresh fruit & veggies &
you'll be well on the way to a sound dietary base.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of The John Machin!
   Sent: 06 February 2006 12:12
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [veganbodybuilding] B12


   Hi, all.

     Great to know it's not just me who cares about both their body and their
planet.

     I'm sure you've dealt with the B12 question but, for me as a new member,
I'd appreciate your views on this, please.

     I read that B12-tablet supplements are not absorbed unless they're the
sublingual or time-release type. I can't easily acquire either type in this
country, so would dissolving a standard B12 tablet sublingually (below the
tongue) be effective?


                                               This nonsense was brought to
you by
     JOHN MACHIN
     17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
     thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























   ---------------------------------
   To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new
Yahoo! Security Centre.

   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ---------------------------------
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         Vegan food  Vegan product  Vegan shoes


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Hi,

me & Robbie (Hazeley) have been chatting about the best medium to mix a
protein drink for the most effective utilisation of amino acids, so I
decided to check out the relative amino acid profiles of both soya milk
(calcium fortified) & SPI (soya protein isolate), to see if using soya milk
is really a good method of getting the best balance of amino acids into you.
Values may differ slightly between products, but these are the values I
decided upon using (see links below).
First you'll need to download 1 of the pages I did below, that covers both
amino acid profiles, their amino acid scores & which amino acids (if any)
are lacking.  I also included what is considered to be the optimum amino
acid ratio intake (i.e. how much of each essential amino acid per gram of
protein is best for the average person to take in (again this may vary
slightly from individual to individual).
So, pick either link below, & either, right click & save to disc (if you
want to keep for reference), or just left click (you mac users just do
whatever mac users do to view files?)
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/pics/soyamilkVspi/soyamilkVspi.doc
(247Kb) - You need MS Word to view
or
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/pics/soyamilkVspi/soyamilkVspi.pdf (52Kb) -
You need Adobe Acrobat reader to view

OK the first thing you'll notice is that SPI is a complete protein with an
Amino Acid Score(AAS) of 108 (any AAS of over 100 means you've got a
complete protein), but you'll notice that soya milk is 21, with
Methiononine/cystine being low (cystine can be created from methionine, so
they are counted as one amino acid for our purposes).  So, if we add SPI to
soya protein we do infact lower the AAS!  So, soya milk alone wouldn't make
a great mixer for SPI.  To get a better amino acid profile for  soya milk
you'd need to mix something that's high in methionine/cystine, but not too
high in trytophan, so actually having something like an ounce or so of
brazil nuts, or a tablespoon of tahini or an ounce or so of sesame seeds,
just to give the low amino acids a boost & make overall intake of protein
higher (less waste!).
I know we've all got a free amino acid pool floating about to make up any
short fall in amino acids in our food, but I think it's better to get the
best balance you can every meal (especially post-training), so the best
method would be either to avoid mixing SPI with soya milk, or if you can't
stomach it without soya milk then add some ground brazil, sesame or tahini,
but then you'll be adding fat, which will slow down absorption (not so good
post-workout), but fine for other protein intake times.
So, taking in all the facts I'd probably go for more SPI in water post
workout drink rather than SPI & soya milk, followed a bit after by carbs -
you could add your low fat, low protein carbs into your post-workout drink
if you train, then go to work or are pushed for time(like a bit of fruit or
similar), then high protein/carbs meal in the following few hours.
Anyway, that's my take on the best method of taking SPI both post workout &
at other times.  Any comments, whether pro or anti would be greatly recieved
as I'm curious to see what you others think of my (admittedly poor deductive
skills :-).
That's it for me for now, speak later,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

I am in a bit of a jam(w/ pectin of course) because I live in an
apartment building in college that does not allow any cooking equipment,
and there is no kitchen.  They want us to eat their meal plan which is
not vegan friendly.  So basically, I "think" i have no access to any raw
sources of iron.

Before I take any supplements, I would like to know what are the most
efficient ways to get iron in a diet where I don't have to cook.  On a
side note, I have attempted to sprout various forms of beans and grains
with varying success, but it takes a long time and they tend to go bad
very easily.

Also, in response to the soy milk shake, it was my assumption that Soy
protein was a complete protein and that "whey"(not mentioned in the
other e-mail) is a cow milk based product.

Lastly to beat the dead horse of how much protein per kg. of body
weight, what is that value? and should I increase that based on the
intensity of a workout that day or with any other factors?

For example what I think is the equation is, I currently weigh
86kg-->86g of protein per day.  Is that 86g a base level before I start
an exercise plan?

Sorry for the attack of questions.

-Christopher Gray

There is this fancy US website www.nutritiondata.com which has some
pretty need bells and whistles.

I think most people who lift weights go by the .6 to .8 x bodyweight in pounds =
grams of protein.  I don't know what the equivalent would be in Kg.

Christopher Gray <christgg@...> wrote:     I am in a bit of a jam(w/ pectin
of course) because I live in an
  apartment building in college that does not allow any cooking equipment,
  and there is no kitchen.  They want us to eat their meal plan which is
  not vegan friendly.  So basically, I "think" i have no access to any raw
  sources of iron.

  Before I take any supplements, I would like to know what are the most
  efficient ways to get iron in a diet where I don't have to cook.  On a
  side note, I have attempted to sprout various forms of beans and grains
  with varying success, but it takes a long time and they tend to go bad
  very easily.

  Also, in response to the soy milk shake, it was my assumption that Soy
  protein was a complete protein and that "whey"(not mentioned in the
  other e-mail) is a cow milk based product.

  Lastly to beat the dead horse of how much protein per kg. of body
  weight, what is that value? and should I increase that based on the
  intensity of a workout that day or with any other factors?

  For example what I think is the equation is, I currently weigh
  86kg-->86g of protein per day.  Is that 86g a base level before I start
  an exercise plan?

  Sorry for the attack of questions.

  -Christopher Gray

  There is this fancy US website www.nutritiondata.com which has some
  pretty need bells and whistles.


   ---------------------------------
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  http://www.veganfitness.net



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                                                     Weightlifting
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Christopher!
	 I am a 95-100% raw living-fooder - with a high level of power lifting
success - do not be concerned with accessing additional levels of iron -
this can be not only counter-productive, but extremely dangerous for
men.  A vegan diet is replete in iron-containing foodstuffs - sprouting
increases all elements enormously - persevere it's amazingly easy!
Non-haem iron simply requires a source of vitamin C at time of
ingestion.  Members here know I am not a fan of soy protein powder -
unless it is fermented (this is available in UK).  Whey is certainly
non-vegan.
	 Protein requirements are very individual.  Because of my cancer
situation - especially as it hit my remaining kidney last year - I won
seven out of seven - including the European's on less than 30 grams of
protein daily for more than a year! - Don't stress out over this - it
also depends upon your goals - your present ratio is certainly a place
to begin! - Good luck, Pat.

Christopher Gray wrote:
> I am in a bit of a jam(w/ pectin of course) because I live in an
> apartment building in college that does not allow any cooking equipment,
> and there is no kitchen.  They want us to eat their meal plan which is
> not vegan friendly.  So basically, I "think" i have no access to any raw
> sources of iron.
>
> Before I take any supplements, I would like to know what are the most
> efficient ways to get iron in a diet where I don't have to cook.  On a
> side note, I have attempted to sprout various forms of beans and grains
> with varying success, but it takes a long time and they tend to go bad
> very easily.
>
> Also, in response to the soy milk shake, it was my assumption that Soy
> protein was a complete protein and that "whey"(not mentioned in the
> other e-mail) is a cow milk based product.
>
> Lastly to beat the dead horse of how much protein per kg. of body
> weight, what is that value? and should I increase that based on the
> intensity of a workout that day or with any other factors?
>
> For example what I think is the equation is, I currently weigh
> 86kg-->86g of protein per day.  Is that 86g a base level before I start
> an exercise plan?
>
> Sorry for the attack of questions.
>
> -Christopher Gray
>
> There is this fancy US website www.nutritiondata.com which has some
> pretty need bells and whistles.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
> http://www.veganfitness.net
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
email:   pat.reeves@...
website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy

Heya,

Thought I'd introduce myself, im xjenx, a Human Sciences student at
University College London, UK.

Ive been vegan for 3 years; although in the last few months I've started
eating sustainably caught fish once a week so im not technically vegan any
more.

I joined the gym when I moved up here in September with a desire to look
like Uma Thurman which has developed into a fixation with arm muscles
(happens to the best of us :) and a desire to build up muscle for the
aesthetics but also for general well-being.

I had a (re)programming session at the gym this morning and im now doing all
free weights which is certainly a technique ill have to get used to I didnt
realise my balance was so appaling! At the moment I'm trying to up the
protein. After 3 years of 'muscle wastage' from lack of effort with keeping
up my protein levels, I had lost a lot of strength.

I have a question (sorry if this has been discussed before :)

For protein I eat lots of beans a lentils (including sprouted) and nuts and
seeds. Im also on a soya protein shake with soya milk, and eat lots of soya
products, TVP, tofu etc. Is it possible to be getting too much soya? Im a
bit prone to intolerances and cannot eat any sugar.

Is almond or oat milk a better idea to have in my shake etc, how do other
people avoid overdoing on soya?

Thanks!

xjenx


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi xjenx,

You can vary your intake of soya, by trying different protein sources My
Protein do a reasonably pea protein isolate http://www.myprotein.co.uk/
(we've got a whole list of supplement manufacturers that all make something
vegan at http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/supps.htm by the way).
I don't believe soya milk is the best thing to add to a shake (unless it's
balanced with a protein source that's that's high in methionine/cystine),
oat milk is (from what I remember, it's a while since I had some) a low
protein, low fat, high carb drink, so would be better to have with a protein
drink post exercise than soya milk, you can also have stuff like seitan
(wheat protein) instead of soya for some meals, also tempeh is good choice
for soya as well as tofu.
There are also grains (or grain like substances) like quinoa that have
useful amounts of protein, so do seaweeds.
By the way, having no added sugar isn't bad, it's GOOD!   No one needs added
sugar, if I could afford it I'd only get things that have no added sugar
just about 100% of the time.   You get enough carbs in wholefood, any more
is just damaging, processed sugars are one of the main reasons for obesity
in the western world, it should carry a warning like cigarettes, as it's
addictive, has no nutritional value & damages the body.  I think it's great
you go 100% free of added sugar.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of xjenx
   Sent: 08 February 2006 17:30
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [veganbodybuilding] newbie


   Heya,

   Thought I'd introduce myself, im xjenx, a Human Sciences student at
   University College London, UK.

   Ive been vegan for 3 years; although in the last few months I've started
   eating sustainably caught fish once a week so im not technically vegan any
   more.

   I joined the gym when I moved up here in September with a desire to look
   like Uma Thurman which has developed into a fixation with arm muscles
   (happens to the best of us :) and a desire to build up muscle for the
   aesthetics but also for general well-being.

   I had a (re)programming session at the gym this morning and im now doing
all
   free weights which is certainly a technique ill have to get used to I
didnt
   realise my balance was so appaling! At the moment I'm trying to up the
   protein. After 3 years of 'muscle wastage' from lack of effort with
keeping
   up my protein levels, I had lost a lot of strength.

   I have a question (sorry if this has been discussed before :)

   For protein I eat lots of beans a lentils (including sprouted) and nuts
and
   seeds. Im also on a soya protein shake with soya milk, and eat lots of
soya
   products, TVP, tofu etc. Is it possible to be getting too much soya? Im a
   bit prone to intolerances and cannot eat any sugar.

   Is almond or oat milk a better idea to have in my shake etc, how do other
   people avoid overdoing on soya?

   Thanks!

   xjenx


   [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



   ---------------------------------
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   SPONSORED LINKS Weightlifting  Vegan footwear  Vegan
         Vegan food  Vegan product  Vegan shoes


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

SPI (soya protein isolate) is a complete protein, soya milk is not.  As Pat
said iron overdose is a much more common problem in men as unless we bleed,
we find it hard to lose much iron (hence pre-menopausal women don't have
that problem as they can just release more iron once a month).  The good
news is it is just about impossible to overdose on non-heme iron, again as
Pat said just eat any iron sources with a vit C source & you'll have no
problems, here's a quick guide to how much is in what that should help you
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm
Protein intakes seem more important depending on your goal, for pure
strength then often the natural (no steroids etc) lifter doesn't need too
much more than than the average, but most people I've met have found that
for size you need to consider protein more carefully.
If you're goals are size I'd go with the recommendation I've got at
http://www.veganbodybuilding.org/guides.htm (download the nutrition guide),
as I recommend different amounts for cutting ( 2g/Kg, so that's 172 grams at
86Kg), maintaining ( 1.4g/Kg, so that's 120.4 grams at 86Kg) & gaining
muscular mass (  1.6g/Kg, so that's 137.6 grams at 86Kg), these would be
what I'd start moving up towards (don't just change, slowly increase), but
I'd vary them about (along with fat & carb modifications) until I was
achieving maximum growth, with minimum fat increase, so you'll have to keep
a check on your fat levels etc as you increase your calorific intake
(callipers are good for that).  Notice too that when cutting & wanting to
hold onto muscular size you need MORE protein per Kg, it's overall calorific
intake that drops.

As a side note:  Pat where in the UK can you get fermented soya protein, do
you literally mean fermented SPI?

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Pat Reeves
   Sent: 08 February 2006 16:40
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] Iron and other pressing issues


   Hi Christopher!
         I am a 95-100% raw living-fooder - with a high level of power
lifting
   success - do not be concerned with accessing additional levels of iron -
   this can be not only counter-productive, but extremely dangerous for
   men.  A vegan diet is replete in iron-containing foodstuffs - sprouting
   increases all elements enormously - persevere it's amazingly easy!
   Non-haem iron simply requires a source of vitamin C at time of
   ingestion.  Members here know I am not a fan of soy protein powder -
   unless it is fermented (this is available in UK).  Whey is certainly
   non-vegan.
         Protein requirements are very individual.  Because of my cancer
   situation - especially as it hit my remaining kidney last year - I won
   seven out of seven - including the European's on less than 30 grams of
   protein daily for more than a year! - Don't stress out over this - it
   also depends upon your goals - your present ratio is certainly a place
   to begin! - Good luck, Pat.

   Christopher Gray wrote:
   > I am in a bit of a jam(w/ pectin of course) because I live in an
   > apartment building in college that does not allow any cooking equipment,
   > and there is no kitchen.  They want us to eat their meal plan which is
   > not vegan friendly.  So basically, I "think" i have no access to any raw
   > sources of iron.
   >
   > Before I take any supplements, I would like to know what are the most
   > efficient ways to get iron in a diet where I don't have to cook.  On a
   > side note, I have attempted to sprout various forms of beans and grains
   > with varying success, but it takes a long time and they tend to go bad
   > very easily.
   >
   > Also, in response to the soy milk shake, it was my assumption that Soy
   > protein was a complete protein and that "whey"(not mentioned in the
   > other e-mail) is a cow milk based product.
   >
   > Lastly to beat the dead horse of how much protein per kg. of body
   > weight, what is that value? and should I increase that based on the
   > intensity of a workout that day or with any other factors?
   >
   > For example what I think is the equation is, I currently weigh
   > 86kg-->86g of protein per day.  Is that 86g a base level before I start
   > an exercise plan?
   >
   > Sorry for the attack of questions.
   >
   > -Christopher Gray
   >
   > There is this fancy US website www.nutritiondata.com which has some
   > pretty need bells and whistles.
   >
   >
   > ---------------------------------
   > http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
   > http://www.veganfitness.net
   > Yahoo! Groups Links
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >
   >

   --
   Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
   For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
   email:   pat.reeves@...
   website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
   Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy



   ---------------------------------
   http://www.veganbodybuilding.org
   http://www.veganfitness.net



   SPONSORED LINKS Weightlifting  Vegan footwear  Vegan
         Vegan food  Vegan product  Vegan shoes


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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     a..  Visit your group "veganbodybuilding" on the web.

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Pete,
   Thanks for this. Couldn't get back to you sooner; I'm not chained to my
computer, thank God.

   The info's very helpful, as is the website you directed me to.

   One thing still puzzles me: Is dissolving an ordinary B12 tablet under your
tongue as effective as dissolving a specially designed sublingual B12 supplement
under your tongue?

   (It's certainly possible, and, luckily, there's no horrible taste when the
pill dissolves.)

   What do you think?
   Best,
   John.


Vegan Bodybuilding <pete@...> wrote:
   Hi John,
most people are fine with  B12 powdered into their shake, or under the
tongue (buy a veggie capsule B12 & just open the capsule is easiest).  Take
at least twice a week (you can't overdose on B12, so more often isn't a
problem).  Here's a bit by our very own researcher & vegan lifter Jack
Norris http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12rec.html
Under the tongue is the best place to absorb B12 most of us have very few
B12 receptors in the rest of the alimentary canal, so swallowing pills
aren't the best way.  But yea, grinding a pill or opening a capsule &
putting under the tongue or in a shake are the best methods for everyday
usage.
Trying doing that & insuring you get a decent EFA supply daily, then it's
just the standard dietary advice about plenty of fresh fruit & veggies &
you'll be well on the way to a sound dietary base.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of The John Machin!
   Sent: 06 February 2006 12:12
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: [veganbodybuilding] B12


   Hi, all.

     Great to know it's not just me who cares about both their body and their
planet.

     I'm sure you've dealt with the B12 question but, for me as a new member,
I'd appreciate your views on this, please.

     I read that B12-tablet supplements are not absorbed unless they're the
sublingual or time-release type. I can't easily acquire either type in this
country, so would dissolving a standard B12 tablet sublingually (below the
tongue) be effective?


                                               This nonsense was brought to
you by
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     17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
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Pat Reeves wrote:
> Hi Everyone!
>     Following Saturday's competition, where I created a new West Midlands
Unequipped record,  I underwent critical scans which,
> at least this time around, show no further growth from clavicle tumour -
> which is great news!  I will repeat this testing modality every
> three-four weeks - as it is obviously expected to re-grow being still
> highly active - though presently contained.  If it re-grows into soft
> tissue - I will immediately return to Germany for a repeat of treatment
> used over Christmas.  If it grows further into bone, there is nothing I
> can do.
>     Currently happy with the status quo. Pat.

--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
email:   pat.reeves@...
website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy

Probably not as effective, but better than swallowing, & easily more than
enough just about everyone I'd say.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
   -----Original Message-----
   From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of The John Machin!
   Sent: 09 February 2006 12:15
   To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   Subject: RE: [veganbodybuilding] B12


   Pete,
     Thanks for this. Couldn't get back to you sooner; I'm not chained to my
computer, thank God.

     The info's very helpful, as is the website you directed me to.

     One thing still puzzles me: Is dissolving an ordinary B12 tablet under
your tongue as effective as dissolving a specially designed sublingual B12
supplement under your tongue?

     (It's certainly possible, and, luckily, there's no horrible taste when
the pill dissolves.)

     What do you think?
     Best,
     John.


   Vegan Bodybuilding <pete@...> wrote:
     Hi John,
   most people are fine with  B12 powdered into their shake, or under the
   tongue (buy a veggie capsule B12 & just open the capsule is easiest).
Take
   at least twice a week (you can't overdose on B12, so more often isn't a
   problem).  Here's a bit by our very own researcher & vegan lifter Jack
   Norris http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/b12rec.html
   Under the tongue is the best place to absorb B12 most of us have very few
   B12 receptors in the rest of the alimentary canal, so swallowing pills
   aren't the best way.  But yea, grinding a pill or opening a capsule &
   putting under the tongue or in a shake are the best methods for everyday
   usage.
   Trying doing that & insuring you get a decent EFA supply daily, then it's
   just the standard dietary advice about plenty of fresh fruit & veggies &
   you'll be well on the way to a sound dietary base.

   Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
     -----Original Message-----
     From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
   [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of The John Machin!
     Sent: 06 February 2006 12:12
     To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
     Subject: [veganbodybuilding] B12


     Hi, all.

       Great to know it's not just me who cares about both their body and
their
   planet.

       I'm sure you've dealt with the B12 question but, for me as a new
member,
   I'd appreciate your views on this, please.

       I read that B12-tablet supplements are not absorbed unless they're the
   sublingual or time-release type. I can't easily acquire either type in
this
   country, so would dissolving a standard B12 tablet sublingually (below the
   tongue) be effective?


                                                 This nonsense was brought to
   you by
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       17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
       thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for the info pete, i shall certainly check out the pea protein when
my next tub runs out, its exactly the same protein count as my one at the
moment so theres no reason not to :)

xjenx


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I've been looking for some different foods, just for a change.  So, I came
up with this one, that's mega-high in protein, loads of calories (for those
who fancy a big start to their day!
First I soak a cup of groats & barley overnight (half a cup of each), with
1oz of raisins in water.
The next day I rinsed the groat, barley & raison mix with water then cook
with one cup of water & one cup of fortified soya milk & a scoop of (in this
case) Pea protein isolate

After cooking I added 2 tsb ground flax, 1 medium banana, 1 kiwi fruit &
served.

The details are:

Barley (half a cup)
total cal 325
carbs 267 cal -  66.75g
Pro 40.75 cal - 10.2g
fat 17.7 cal - 1.96g

groats (half a cup)
total cal 303.5
carbs 212.5 cal - 53.1g
Pro 45.6 cal - 11.4g
fat 45 cal - 5g

Banana
total cal 89.9
carbs 83.4 cal - 20.85g
Pro 3.7 cal - 0.925g
fat 2.8 cal - 0.3g

Kiwi
total cal 46.4
carbs 40 cal - 10g
Pro 2.9 cal - 0.7g
fat 3.3 cal - 0.3g

Raisins
total cal 83.6
carbs 80 cal - 20g
Pro 2.4 cal - 0.6g
fat 1 cal - 0.14g

Pea Protein Isolate
total cal 150
carbs  7.2 cal - 1.8g
Pro 144.4 cal -  36.1g
fat 1.8 cal -  0.2g

Flax seed (2 tbs)
total cal 74.8
carbs  16.4 cal -  4.1g
Pro 8.8 cal - 2.2g
fat 49.4 cal - 5.5g

Soya milk
total cal 98
carbs  32.9 cal -  8.2g
Pro 29.4 cal - 7.3g
fat 35.7 cal - 4g



Total
calories 1171cal
Carbs 726 cal - 181.5g
Protein 278 cal - 69.5g
Fat 156 cal - 17.5g

As you can see the protein was really high, I didn't actually need the added
protein powder (I didn't think the rest would be so high in protein), even
without added protein you'd get

Total WITHOUT Pea Protein Isolate (PPI)
calories cal 1021 cal
Carbs 719 cal - 180g
Protein 134 cal - 33.5g
Fat 154 cal - 17g
(which would be enough for most!)

Obviously these are approximate values.
Just thought some of you might be interested to  some of you.  If anyone
else has any ideas for meals they like, then now's the time to get them up.
They don't need to be calculated like I've done above, just any meals with
rough portion amounts, to see what people are enjoying at the moment.

All the best,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

A word of caution over high-protein diets which are based on proteins other than
soya.

   From my research, I read that a diet high in protein leaches the body of vital
calcium - this is thought to be why we are one of the most osteoporotic nations
despite drinking the most (calcium-rich, but high-protein) cows' milk.

   Soya protein is, I understand, unique in that it alone does not use up high
amounts of calcium in its assimilation.

   Or do other vegan proteins have similar qualities?


                                             This nonsense was brought to you by
   JOHN MACHIN
   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From the research I've done it's ANIMAL protein that do the leaching, so any
plant based protein source has the same calcium saving properties as soya.
There may be the odd exception (which I'd like details about if anyone has
them), but as far as I know all the commercial plant-based protein isolates
& concentrates have no effect on calcium.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

   _____

From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The John Machin!
Sent: 20 February 2006 12:06
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Protein-Calcium Connexion


A word of caution over high-protein diets which are based on proteins other
than soya.

   From my research, I read that a diet high in protein leaches the body of
vital calcium - this is thought to be why we are one of the most
osteoporotic nations despite drinking the most (calcium-rich, but
high-protein) cows' milk.

   Soya protein is, I understand, unique in that it alone does not use up
high amounts of calcium in its assimilation.

   Or do other vegan proteins have similar qualities?


                                             This nonsense was brought to you
by
   JOHN MACHIN
   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























---------------------------------
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voicemail

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Very True!  The main reason high protein diets reduce calcium balance is that
when the sulfur containing amino acids, methionine and cystine, are metabolized,
sulfuric acid is left behind reducing the pH of the consumer's blood.  It's
essential that the blood pH stay in a very defined range, I think like 7.4 or
something in that whereabouts.  To buffer the sulfuric acid the consumer's
skeleton releases calcium salts into the blood.  But it's also very essential
that blood calcium stay in a very defined range too.  So all that extra calcium
must be excreted through the kidneys.  This not only depletes calcium but also
causes many renal problems because of all that calcium and all that acid going
through the kidneys.  Animal proteins are generally much higher in cystein and
methionine than are vegetable proteins.  Caution, wheat is also
disproportionately high in methionine and rice has a little more than what's
ideal.
Vegan Bodybuilding <pete@...> wrote:  From the research I've
done it's ANIMAL protein that do the leaching, so any
plant based protein source has the same calcium saving properties as soya.
There may be the odd exception (which I'd like details about if anyone has
them), but as far as I know all the commercial plant-based protein isolates
& concentrates have no effect on calcium.

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

   _____

From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The John Machin!
Sent: 20 February 2006 12:06
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Protein-Calcium Connexion


A word of caution over high-protein diets which are based on proteins other
than soya.

   From my research, I read that a diet high in protein leaches the body of
vital calcium - this is thought to be why we are one of the most
osteoporotic nations despite drinking the most (calcium-rich, but
high-protein) cows' milk.

   Soya protein is, I understand, unique in that it alone does not use up
high amounts of calcium in its assimilation.

   Or do other vegan proteins have similar qualities?


                                             This nonsense was brought to you
by
   JOHN MACHIN
   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























---------------------------------
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voicemail

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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http://www.veganfitness.net



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<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/veganbodybuilding> " on the web.


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   SPONSORED LINKS
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi!
	 I totally concur with Ken's findings here.  Extensive media coverage
acknowledges that I have reversed osteoporosis thirteen years ago,
mainly by acknowledging the acid/alkaline factor - I have been vegan for
forty years - so this is no secure factor.  It takes an enormous amount
of effort to resolve via nutritional medicine - but it certainly can be
done! - Pat.

ken wrote:
> Very True!  The main reason high protein diets reduce calcium balance is that
when the sulfur containing amino acids, methionine and cystine, are metabolized,
sulfuric acid is left behind reducing the pH of the consumer's blood.  It's
essential that the blood pH stay in a very defined range, I think like 7.4 or
something in that whereabouts.  To buffer the sulfuric acid the consumer's
skeleton releases calcium salts into the blood.  But it's also very essential
that blood calcium stay in a very defined range too.  So all that extra calcium
must be excreted through the kidneys.  This not only depletes calcium but also
causes many renal problems because of all that calcium and all that acid going
through the kidneys.  Animal proteins are generally much higher in cystein and
methionine than are vegetable proteins.  Caution, wheat is also
disproportionately high in methionine and rice has a little more than what's
ideal.
> Vegan Bodybuilding <pete@...> wrote:  From the research I've
done it's ANIMAL protein that do the leaching, so any
> plant based protein source has the same calcium saving properties as soya.
> There may be the odd exception (which I'd like details about if anyone has
> them), but as far as I know all the commercial plant-based protein isolates
> & concentrates have no effect on calcium.
>
> Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
>
>   _____
>
> From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The John Machin!
> Sent: 20 February 2006 12:06
> To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Protein-Calcium Connexion
>
>
> A word of caution over high-protein diets which are based on proteins other
> than soya.
>
>   From my research, I read that a diet high in protein leaches the body of
> vital calcium - this is thought to be why we are one of the most
> osteoporotic nations despite drinking the most (calcium-rich, but
> high-protein) cows' milk.
>
>   Soya protein is, I understand, unique in that it alone does not use up
> high amounts of calcium in its assimilation.
>
>   Or do other vegan proteins have similar qualities?
>
>
>                                             This nonsense was brought to you
> by
>   JOHN MACHIN
>   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
>   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger  NEW - crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with
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> http://www.veganfitness.net
>
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--
Pat Reeves, Practitioner of Nutritional & Functional Medicine
For latest info on living foods and courses, please see my website
email:   pat.reeves@...
website: http://www.livingfoods.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk
Full member of The British Association For Nutritional Therapy

I thought it was neccessary to obtain sublingual B12 from the States, but I
happened to mention the supplement to a health food stallholder on our local
market and, hey presto, the following week she came up with a 1000 mcg
sublingual and vegan-friendly B12 supplement, manufactured by Lifeplan ...
www.lifeplan.co.uk
   Hope this is of help.


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hello, everyone i am working on my personal trainer certification
and i have to do an essay on body builders an there diet and
suplement schedule, if you take supplements what are they. well
thanks of readling.
thanks

Can somebody tell me, please, if pea isolate is a complete protein? And is there
any point using it instead of soya isolate?

                                             This nonsense was brought to you by
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   17 birch rd congleton cw12 4nn (01260) 272254
   thought for the weak: Why don't lemons dissolve in their own juice?
























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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi John,

Both pea & soya are considered to be complete proteins.  I've put some
details below about their amino acid profiles & for interest compared them
to whey  You'll see a fair variation in the numbers printed in various
places for all types of protein as different tests yield different results &
many different versions of what makes a complete protein as well.  Bear in
mind assimilation is as important as quantity, if you have problems
digesting one type of protein, try another.
The important factors are:  Are you gaining muscular mass or losing excess
fatty tissue (depending on your goals) with no intestinal distress, always
keep that in mind.
As to is there any reason for using pea protein instead of soya, no not
really.  I do vary myself, but I use a fair amount of soya foods, so having
pea protein helps me not be too dependant on one type of protein source (&
pea protein is often cheaper too!)

A bit for those geeky-types (like me) that like the numbers :-)

Pea Protein Isolate amino acid profile

Essential Amino Acids
g/100g Protein
Isoleucine     4.4
Leucine     8.5
Lysine     7.7
Methionine     0.7
Phenylalanine   5.8
Threonine     3.8
Tryptophan     0.8
Valine     4.9

Non-Essential Amino Acids
g/100g Protein
Alanine     4.0
Arginine     8.2
Aspartic Acid   12.0
Cystine/Cysteine0.8
Glutamic Acid   18.5
Glycine     4.1
Histdine     2.5
Proline     4.1
Serine     5.3
Tyrosine     3.7

Whey Protein Isolate

Essential Amino Acids
g/100g Protein
Isoleucine 6.4
Leucine 10.6
Lysine 9.6
Methionine 2.2
Phenylalanine 3.0
Threonine 6.7
Tryptophan 1.4
Valine 5.9

Non-Essential Amino Acids
g/100g Protein
Alanine 5.0
Arginine 2.1
Aspartic Acid 11.0
Cystine/Cysteine 2.2
Glutamic Acid 18.1
Glycine 1.4
Histdine 1.7
Proline 5.5
Serine 4.6
Tyrosine 2.6

Soya Protein Isolate Amino acid Profile

Protein & Amino Acids
g per 100grams
Protein  80.7g
   Tryptophan  1.116g
   Threonine  3.137g
   Isoleucine  4.253g
   Leucine  6.782g
   Lysine  5.327g
   Methionine  1.130g
   Cystine  1.046g
   Phenylalanine  4.594g
   Tyrosine  3.222g
   Valine  4.099g
   Arginine  6.670g
   Histidine  2.303g
   Alanine  3.589g
   Aspartic acid  10.200g
   Glutamic acid  17.450g
   Glycine  3.603g
   Proline  4.960g
   Serine  4.594g
   Hydroxyproline ~


Optimal levels of amino acids
Essential Amino Acid g/100g of Protein
Tryptophan 0.7
Threonine 2.7
Isoleucine 5.5
Leucine 2.5
Lysine 5.1
Methionine+Cystine 2.5
Phenylalanine+Tyrosine 4.7
Valine 3.2
Histidine 1.8

(the above optimum levels guide is done by the Institute of Medicine's Food
and Nutrition Board, there are several versions by different groups, so this
is not the only version) as you'll notice from this pea, soya & whey fall
short of being compete in one essential amino acid or more if we use the
numbers given.  I got the pea & whey protein amino acid profiles from
www.myprotein.co.uk site, the SPI (soya protein isolate) from nutritional
data www.nutritionaldata.com , just to give you some idea of the variation
here's the SPI I got from myprotein

Soya Protein Isolate amino acid profile

Amino Acid Profile
Grams in 100g of Protein
Arginine 6.6g
Cystine 0.8
Histidine 2.2
Isoleucine 4
Leucine 7.1
Lysine 5.8
Methionine 1
Phenylalanine 5.2
Threonine 3.3
Tryptophan 0.9
Valine 4
Some of the numbers are quite different from the nutritional data numbers.
I suppose, just like us, soya beans vary in the the amount & ratios of their
amino acid profiles, so no two tests would ever give exactly the same
result?
If there's any other details out there you'd like discussed let us know,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

________________________________

From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of The John Machin!
Sent: 27 February 2006 12:36
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] pea-soya protein


Can somebody tell me, please, if pea isolate is a complete protein? And is
there any point using it instead of soya isolate?

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