Sounds good. Somewhere I have a list of the common bacteria and viruses and
their respective PH ranges outside of which they cannot exist.

I don't know anything short of a drug or a bodily malfunction that can change
the PH of the blood.




----- Original Message -----
From: Vegan Bodybuilding
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2007 3:50 PM
Subject: RE: [veganbodybuilding] Ascorbic Acid


Hi Kirk,

I'm talking to a guy who wrote a book on PH balance in the body who says
he'll be sending me, when he's got time, a whole wad of research that shows
that increased acidity in the blood actually hinders disease control, so
you'd get more illness, not less, but I'll have to wait until he can sort it
all out.

You can slightly vary the ph of the blood, but it doesn't take much before
you hit acidosis (the blood getting too acidic) & can be fatal!

The statements by Kirk form his last email are numbered (1/, 2/, 3/ etc) &
my answers are numbered right under the relevant question (1a/, 2a/, 3a/
etc). Oh yea, I bunged in a couple of random points at the end just for
interest: My latest respone is labeled 1c (Kirk)

1/All REAL vitamins occur in nature as functional whole food complexes (as
opposed to individual, non-functional isolates.

1a/ Yes, they are often in complexes. Where is the proof that individual is
synonymous with non-functional?

1C/When they occur in nature, they ALWAYS occur in complexes. The proof is
all around us. Is there a pure ascorbic acid berry, a pure thiamine nut or a
pure irradiated ergosterol bush?...

2/ With synthetic vitamins, a mere scientist has only attempted to
reconstruct the exact structure of the naturally-occurring molecule by
chemically combining molecules from other sources.

2a/ Statement, nothing to back it up.

2C/ COMMON SENSE NEEDS NO BACKING UP.

3/ Synthetic vitamins have a "drug-like" effect on the body, basically
mandating the physiology to respond as opposed to providing the building
blocks necessary for health. Synthetic vitamins usually require much higher
doses than found in nature and merely act as stimulants as opposed to building
blocks.

3a/ Again a statement, not evidence.

3C/SOME STATEMENTS ARE SELF-EVIDENT.

4/ Ascorbic acid comprises only about 5% of the functional whole food
complex. The ascorbic acid portion of the complex acts as an anti-oxidant to
protect the enzymes (copper containing tyrosinase), ascorbigen, bioflavanoid
complexes, vitamin P factors, vitamin K factors and vitamin J factors. Calling
ascorbic acid a vitamin would be like calling the shell of an egg, an egg.


4a/ Synthetic vitamin C, does fore-fill the criteria to be called a vitamin.
This is inherent, of course on me being accurate. If it turns out you are
correct, then perhaps it would fail to meet that criteria & have to
reclassified as ...hmm...a part vitamin, or vitamin subsection? HOW ABOUT A
SYNTHETIC, ISOLATED, FRACTIONATED CHEMICAL?... But at the moment that's not yet
proven :-). I'm not sure about the 5% of the whole food complex, but even if
true, that is really irrelevant unless you can show that vitamin C fails to
perform one or more function that is necessary to be called a vitamin. I
SUPPOSE IT DEPENDS ON YOUR DEFINITION OF A VITAMIN. IF BY A VITAMIN YOU MEAN
NECESSARY FOR LIFE, THEN I WOULD DEFINITELY ARGUE THAT ASCORBIC ACID IS NOT A
VITAMIN. AS I STATED BEFORE, THE HUMAN RACE WOULD HAVE DIED OUT BEFORE THEY
WERE ABLE TO ISOLATE (READ PERVERT) ASCORBIC ACID. PLAIN ASCORBIC ACID AT
DOSAGES FOUND IN NATURALLY-OCCURING FOODS (WITHOUT THE ATTENDANT CO-FACTORS HAS
LITTLE OR NO HEALTH BENEFITS. WHY NOT JUST EAT THE WHOLE FOOD AND GET ALL THE
NUTRIENTS NATURE HAD IN MIND (MANY OF WHICH ARE YET TO BE DISCOVERED AND EVEN
FEWER ABLE TO BE SYNTHESIZED IN A CHEMICAL FACTORY FOR HUGE PROFIT). WHEN IT
COMES TO NUTRITION, I'LL TRUST GO AS OPPOSED TO MAN EVERY TIME. IF IT WERE NOT
SO, THE HUMAN RACE WOULD HAVE PERISHED LONG AGO WITH THE "BENEFIT" OF SYNTHETIC
VITAMINS!

5/ Taking synthetic ascorbic acid induces a loss of copper which can result
in weakening of the arteries (including the aorta leading) to aneurysms and
stroke and a loss of vitamin K resulting in vitamin K deficiency.


5a/ There can be some blockage of copper. If consumed at the same time.
I've not come across any issues with vitamin K (could you link me to that
research). Have you got research about ascorbic acid & artery damage due to
copper loss or are you extrapolating from research on those with copper
assimilation problems & using this as a basis for this argument. If so, put
up the research as it's new to me!

I RUN A BUSY PRACTICE AND AM RAISING A FAMILY. AT THIS TIME IN MY LIFE I
DON'T HAVE THE LUXURY OF HUNTING DOWN OBSCURE RESEARCH, BUT THERE IS NO DOUBT IN
MY MIND THAT IT EXISTS.

6/Even the discoverer of ascorbic acid, Svzent-Gyorgyi declared that other
substances than ascorbic acid were responsible for the anti-hemorrhagic
(anti-scurvy) action of vitamin C as found in nature. He more he was a success
at isolating and purifying ascorbic acid, the worse were his clinical results!
(see
OXIDATION, pp. 73-74, Williams and Wilkins, Baltimore, 1939. Lemon juice is
always more effective than ascorbic acid.

6a/ Lemon juice may be more effective than a similar dose of ascorbic acid
for scurvy, I've never looked into it? But as I said the US library of
Medicine states that ascorbic acid is the recommended treatment for scurvy
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a682583.html

6B/ IN CASE YOU WERE UNAWARE, THE U.S. GOV'T IS NOT THE BEST SOURCE FOR
ACCURATE NUTRITIONAL OR HEALTH INFORMATION.

7/ Ascorbic acid weakens red blood cells (Ann. Int. Med. 82:810, '75; Ann.
Int. Med. 84:490, ' 76; Blood 49: 471, '77).

7a/ The only research I've found about this shows that several species of
fish & albino mice get improved red & white blood cells from the inclusion
of vitamin C. Which I'm not sure would be relevant. I found no human or in
vitro research on this one sorry.

7B/ KEEP LOOKING IF YOU FEEL COMPELLED. I SEE NO NEED TO TAKE ASCORBIC ACID
WHEN I CAN GET REAL VITAMIN C AS OCCURS IN NATURE - WITH ALL THE ENZYMES,
CO-FACTORS, MINERALS AND GOD KNOWS WHAT ELSE AND WITH ALL THEM IN PERFECT
BALANCE SO INEXPENSIVELY (AND TASTY) IN A WIDE VARIETY OF WHOLE, FRESH, RAW,
LIVING FOOD.

8/ Ascorbic acid irritates gastrointestinal mucosa (New England Journal of
Medicine 285:635, '71).

8a/ Yes it can in some people.

8B/ COULDN'T IRRITATED GASTROINTESTINAL MUCOSA SET THE STAGE FOR ULCERS OR
CANCEROUS CELLS?...

9/ Ascorbic acid leads to renal calcification (Lancet 2:201, '73)

9a/ I believe that was the series of experiments that were discredited.
There may have been others that were done accurately, so I'm not sure, but
the last I heard the results were wrong because they were checking for
oxalic acid in the urine, but the particular method they used to test it
couldn't actually tell the difference between oxalic acid & vitamin C! This
may have been a different experiment, but it is a quite famous blunder,
that's why I recalled it. The latest research I've found on this is:

Curhan GC, Willett WC, Rimm EB, Stampfer MJ.
A prospective study of the intake of vitamins C and B6, and the risk of
kidney stones in men.
J Urol. 1996 Jun;155(6):1847-51.

Which showed no elevation in the risk of kidney stones even with mega-doses
of synthetic vitamin C.

9B/ AS THE OLD SAYING GOES, "YOU CAN'T FOOL MOTHER NATURE" ;^) TAKING ANY
SYNTHETIC CHEMICAL IN MEGADOSES ACTS AS A DRUG IN THE BODY AND ALL DRUGS HAVE
SIDE-EFFECTS. IF IT DOESN'T OCCUR IN NATURE IN MEGADOSES, HOW CAN IT BE NATURAL
OR GOOD FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION?...

10/Ascorbic acid leads to rebound scurvy (Canadian Medical Association
Journal 93:893, '65)

10a/ Rebound scurvy is another unproven theory. Studies by Gerster and
Moser found only 3 cases in adults & stated:

"...conclude that these reports are anecdotal and not well founded. No blood
vitamin C levels were determined in any of these cases. One patient
developed symptoms less than two weeks after discontinuing vitamin C
supplements; since body vitamin C stores cannot be depleted this quickly, it
is very doubtful that this case was true scurvy. In the other two cases, no
information about the patients' dietary habits was collected. It is
noteworthy that no cases of rebound scurvy have been reported in clinical
trials of vitamin C megadoses..."

11/ Ascorbic acid interferes with normal mineral metabolism leading to
hemochromatosis (British Journal of Nutrition 24:607, '70; Journal of
Clinical Medicine 51:37, '58)

11a/ A problem virtually impossible to get for any vegan who does not suffer
from a metabolic disorder to get. Non-heme iron will slow it's absorption
in vegans as amounts of iron in the body increase. This condition could be
a problem with omnivores & would have to be watched (if iron got too high
simply go & give blood is the most often offered solution).I know I need to
dig up the research to back this one up!

12/ Ascorbic acid destroys serum vitamin B12 (JAMA 230:241, '74; American
Journal of Clinical Nutrition 30:297, '76).

12a/ Yes, again never take high amounts of vitamin C with your B-vitamins.
I always mention this. If taken apart there seems little problem with blood
serum levels of B12.(again I'll have to have a look about to dig up the
evidence for this one-yes, I'm running out of 'research steam' & time

12B/ I WOULD ARGUE NEVER TO TAKE HIGH DOSES OF ASCORBIC ACID OR SYNTHETIC
VITAMIN B!

13/ Ascorbic acid interferes with vitamin A metabolism (American Journal of
Clinical Nutrition 26:382, '73).

13a/ I've not found anything on this subject, nor is it in any of the common
safety recommendations about ascorbic acid intake. It seems that it has been
considered a non-issue in present research (that's not to say it isn't a
problem, but the research just doesn't seem to be there?).

14/ Ascorbic acid leads to increased atherosclerosis. March 2, 2000 -
Researchers at the University of California found that people who took 500
mg. of ascorbic acid had a 2.5 times FASTER progression of thickening of the
carotid artery than those who took no synthetic ascorbic acid. Smokers had a 5.0
times FASTER progression!

14a/ There are many studies about this very subject both for & against. I
can dig up a few going each way if you want (but they're easy enough to find
on pubmed). Here's a couple of pro one's just grabbed randomly:

Anti-atherogenic effects of a mixture of ascorbic acid, lysine, proline,
arginine, cysteine, and green tea phenolics in human aortic smooth muscle
cells. 2007

THAT STUDY WAS TESTING MORE THAN JUST ASCORBIC ACID.

Ivanov
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Ivano
v%20V%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.
Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> V, Roomi
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Roomi
%20MW%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.
Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> MW, Kalinovsky
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Kalin
ovsky%20T%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPa
nel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> T, Niedzwiecki
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Niedz
wiecki%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP
anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> A, Rath
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Rath%
20M%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pu
bmed_RVAbstractPlus> M.

Dr. Rath Research Institute, 1260 Memorex Drive, Santa Clara, California
95050, USA.

Supplementation with vitamins C and E improves arterial stiffness and
endothelial function in essential hypertensive patients. 2007

THIS STUDY WAS ALSO TESTING MORE THAN JUST ASCORBIC ACID.

Plantinga
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Plant
inga%20Y%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPan
el.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> Y, Ghiadoni
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Ghiad
oni%20L%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPane
l.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> L, Magagna
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Magag
na%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel
.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> A, Giannarelli
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Giann
arelli%20C%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP
anel.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> C, Franzoni
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Franz
oni%20F%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPane
l.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> F, Taddei
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Tadde
i%20S%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.
Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> S, Salvetti
<http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=Search&Term=%22Salve
tti%20A%22%5BAuthor%5D&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPane
l.Pubmed_RVAbstractPlus> A.

Department of Internal Medicine, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy.

The American heart association has compared studies & found:

"Vitamin C

A few studies suggest that consuming high levels of vitamin C may protect
against heart disease, but not all studies confirm this relationship. It is
recommended that people who have low levels of this nutrient should take
vitamin C (either through diet or supplements) to prevent atherosclerosis
and its complications. " (Taken from the University of Maryland medical
centre website -
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/atherosclerosis-000016.htm ).

GO WITH FOOD. HUMANS WERE DESIGNED TO EAT WHOLE FOODS, NOT EXIST ON MAN-MADE
CHEMICALS.

15/ NEWSFLASH - I JUST found a reference to a study done last year in which
ascorbic acid was shown to SLOW muscle strength recovery! It was British
researchers who recently discovered this. I don't have the link, but you may
be able to find it by searching Google

15a/ Couldn't find it, but it would still be pretty much in the minority of
studies.

Statement by Kirk: The vast majority of major studies find that synthetic
vitamins showing no change or a worse change in health. However, when they
study whole foods containing the vitamin in question they show improved
health!


Answer: I don't believe this is true. Yes, whole foods tend to be superior,
but offering up the statement that synthetic substances do nothing or make
things worse is a silly statement. Any look at research done on many, many
substances shows that clinical improvement can be achieved with synthetic
substances. They may not be to the same standard as whole food
alternatives, or possibly they are in some cases equal or in some particular
cases even superior to the natural products. The research is out there that
backs up the claim that many synthetic substances do actually work & it is
irresponsible to say otherwise.



I SAID SYNTHETIC SUBSTANCES DO NOTHING (TO IMPROVE HEALTH) OR MAKE THINGS
(HEALTH) WORSE. I SUPPOSE IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO YOUR DEFINITION OF HEALTH. MOST
PEOPLE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF BELIEVING THAT HEALTH IS HOW ONE FEELS. HOWEVER,
MANY PEOPLE "FEEL" GOOD ONE MINUTE AND DROP DEAD THE NEXT OF A HEART ATTACK OR
STROKE (OBVIOUSLY THEY WEREN'T HEALTHY). A BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF HEALTH
RELATES NOT TO HOW ONE IS FEELING, BUT RATHER TO ONE'S POTENTIAL FOR NORMAL
FUNCTION.

CLINICAL IMPROVEMENTS CAN BE MADE WITH DRUGS BUT WHAT DOES THAT TELL US?...
DRUGS DO NOT HEAL - ONLY NORMALLY FUNCTIONING LIVING TISSUE HEALS. ONE OF THE
REQUIREMENTS FOR NORMAL FUNCTION IS FOOD. A PERSON CAN TAKE A DRUG (COCAINE)
AND FEEL GOOD, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY ARE HEALTHY!!! IN FACT, I WOULD ARGUE
THAT MOST DRUGS MEREKLY COVER-UP OR MASK SYMPTOMS AND DESTRO HEALTH (FUNCTION)
IN THE PROCESS.

Vitamin C is manufactured by a two stage fermentation process from Glucose,
that replaced the older fermentation/chemical method by the end of the 60's.
( Just threw that in as a side note).

Oh a final bit:

By Kirk: I don't think we need research to prove what common sense should be
able to clearly tell us. If as humans we needed pure ascorbic acid to
function, the race would gave died out by the 1900's as prior to that it was
not isolated.

Answer: Actually it may be we need some common sense in this issue. There
are several top theorists that believe that a freak genetic mutation caused
us to stop producing our own vitamin C (we apparently produce the
pre-chemicals needed to create vitamin C, but haven't got, or have lost, the
ability to put them together). ARE YOU SPEAKING OF VITAMIN C OR MERELY
ASCORBIC ACID?... We are one of only a couple of mammals who don't produce
vitamin C & if it is the case that we did once produce vitamin C & lost it, the
optimum amount may not be available without some serious
thought going into our diets (eating some of those really high vitamin C
bearing plants that are, at the moment virtually impossible to buy here in
the UK). It would still be possible by natural means to reach very high
levels of vitamin C intake if such foods were available, so pills wouldn't
be the only means. Just an added little something. I'm not saying I
believe or endorse this theory, just saying it's out there.

I'VE READ THE THEORY 25 YEARS AGO AND DIDN'T BUY IT THEN.

Woooo! Well we're certainly building up some ideas about the good old vit C!
That was a mega-search to get all that & I'm sure Kirk felt the same when
they posted originally.

AMEN!

So, far I'd say we agree that natural vitamin C is superior, if you can get
it. NATURAL VITAMIN C IS ABUNDANT IN MANY FOODS. I'm not sure if Kirk has
modified his view on the acidity of ascorbic acid being the main cause of the
lessening of disease in humans when synthetic vitamin C is ingested as he didn't
mention? I've got a few points raised above that I'll have to check out like
trying to find out about vitamin A metabolism. I couldn't find the original
research so I'm not sure if that's from carotene to retinol or from retinol to
its various metabolites within the body? So, I'll ask about & see if any of the
research junkies have stumbled across anything about it. Also, the
weakening of blood cells in humans (as I said it's good for fish & rodents,
but I've found no humans or even a test tube!), & check out the vitamin K
situation.

Any other points people can think of or other information would be good,

That's about it for now,

All the best,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

THANKS FOR THE DIALOGUE, PETE!

KIRK


From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirk McAnsh
Sent: 02 July 2007 00:10
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Ascorbic Acid

Hi Pete,

Thanks for your reply - it's fun trying to sort all this out (too bad we
couldn't get paid to do it!). I don't think we need research to prove what
common sense should be able to clearly tell us. If as humans we needed pure
ascorbic acid to function, the race would gave died out by the 1900's as
prior to that it was not isolated.

As far as meat and dairy causing problems, I think it has more to do than
with the supposed acid-forming properties. Meat today is laden with high
doses of synthetic hormones which would do more to harm ones health than the
meat itself.

It takes megadoses of ascorbic acid to effect a change and at that level
acts as a drug, which moves it our of the realm of a nutritional supplement
at that point.

I don't think anything natural can make the blood more acidic. The body
protects the blood at all costs. However, that is not to say that other
natural substances cannot make the other fluids of the body (urine, think
cranberry). I think organic phosphorous Cal*Amo make the interstitial fluids
of the body more acidic.

I have some of the info that may be of interest. I'll limit my commentary to
counterfeit vitamin C (although I have info on lots of different counterfeit
vitamins).

1. All REAL vitamins occur in nature as functional whole food complexes (as
opposed to individual, non-functional isolates.

2. With synthetic vitamins, a mere scientist has only attempted to
reconstruct the exact structure of the naturally-occurring molecule by
chemically combining molecules from other
sources.

3. Synthetic vitamins have a "drug-like" effect on the body, basically
mandating the physiology to respond as opposed to providing the building
blocks necessary for health.
Synthetic vitamins usually require much higher doses than found in nature
and merely act as stimulants as opposed to building blocks.

4. Ascorbic acid comprises only about 5% of the functional whole food
complex. The ascorbic acid portion of the complex acts as an anti-oxidant to
protect the enzymes (copper
containing tyrosinase), ascorbigen, bioflavanoid complexes, vitamin P
factors, vitamin K factors and vitamin J factors. Calling ascorbic acid a
vitamin would be like calling the
shell of an egg, an egg.

5. Taking synthetic ascorbic acid induces a loss of copper which can result
in weakening of the arteries (including the aorta leading) to aneurysms and
stroke and a loss of vitamin
K resulting in vitamin K deficiency.

6. Even the discoverer of ascorbic acid, Svzent-Gyorgyi declared that other
substances than ascorbic acid were responsible for the anti-hemorrhagic
(anti-scurvy) action of
vitamin C as found in nature. He more he was a success at isolating and
purifying ascorbic acid, the worse were his clinical results! (see
OXIDATION, pp. 73-74, Williams and
Wilkins, Baltimore, 1939. Lemon juice is always more effective than ascorbic
acid.

7. Ascorbic acid weakens red blood cells (Ann. Int. Med. 82:810, '75; Ann.
Int. Med. 84:490, ' 76; Blood 49: 471, '77).

8. Ascorbic acid irritates gastrointestinal mucosa (New England Journal of
Medicine 285:635, '71)

9. Ascorbic acid leads to renal calcification (Lancet 2:201, '73)

10. Ascorbic acid leads to rebound scurvy (Canadian Medical Association
Journal 93:893, '65)

11. Ascorbic acid interferes with normal mineral metabolism leading to
hemochromatosis (British Journal of Nutrition 24:607, '70; Journal of
Clinical Medicine 51:37, '58)

12. Ascorbic acid destroys serum vitamin B12 (JAMA 230:241, '74; American
Journal of Clinical Nutrition 30:297, '76).

13. Ascorbic acid interferes with vitamin A metabolism (American Journal of
Clinical Nutrition 26:382, '73).

14. Ascorbic acid leads to increased atherosclerosis. March 2, 2000 -
Researchers at the University of California found that people who took 500
mg. of ascorbic acid had a
2.5 times FASTER progression of thickening of the carotid artery than those
who took no synthetic ascorbic acid. Smokers had a 5.0 times FASTER
progression!

NEWSFLASH - I JUST found a reference to a study done last year in which
ascorbic acid was shown to SLOW muscle strength recovery! It was British
researchers who recently discovered this. I don't have the link, but you may
be able to find it by searching Google.

The vast majority of major studies find that synthetic vitamins showing no
change or a worse change in health. However, when they study whole foods
containing the vitamin in question they show improved health!

See also:

Vermont Folk Remedies by Jarvis

May 1938 - H.R. getz: Proceedings of the Society of Exploratory Biology and
Medicine, page 543.

Dr. A.J. Carlson, Chicago University

Dr. W.J. McCormick, world-famous authority on the therapeutic uses of
vitamic C

Dr. Agnes Faye Morgan (UCLA - Berkeley) during the 1940's - proved that
taking synthetic vitamins is WORSE than starvation!

Henry Borsook, Ph.D., M.D. California Institute of Technology, VITAMINS,
Viking Press, 1941, pp. 109-110.

Dr. Pfeifer, M.D. (also a biochemist) during the 1950's

Dr. Weston A. Price, Nutrition and Physical Degeneration

Kirk

----- Original Message -----
From: Vegan Bodybuilding
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2007 4:52 AM
Subject: RE: [veganbodybuilding] Re: Boosting Immunity, getting rid of that
pesty cold/cough

Hi Kirk,

Thanks for taking the time to dig out the files (I know what that's like-a
real pain). The main trouble I have with the acid increase lessening
illness is, if that was the case then any acid forming foods would lessen
disease, which isn't the case. There is some argument that the acidity may
affect stomach contents, but again would any acidic food be equally
effective & it's not, so is vitamin C a 'special case' if so we'd need the
research to back that up. If it does cause an acid shift in the blood ph (I
assume that's some of the stuff you'll be digging up), then why does that
acid change affect health while other acid changes - the eating of meat &
dairy for example, or even just adding some other acid food, they don't
appear to change disease profiles from bacteria or viral infections at all?
So, again is vitamin C a special case, if so why?

Finally, suppose you are right & can show, for whatever reason vitamin C
does stop certain bacteria & viruses by making the blood more acidic. OK,
now, as I said vitamin C enhances performance & acidic blood lowers
performance. Now, I take vitamin C, but I use it with an alkaline food
would that not neutralise the acidity & therefore increase my performance
even further? As far as I know I've not found any research to back this up,
I'll keep digging about though it's just there is a LOT of vitamin C
research to wade through! But you might say, no you don't want vitamin c
because of the DNA damage, here's my counter argument that explains,
somewhat, my thinking on free radicals & antioxidants & why even if vitamin
c pills do cause some free radical damage it is actually the lesser of two
evils. You could also say that synthetic vitamin c is bad for other
reasons, but you'd have research to back that up (& I'd have learnt some
stuff which is great ! :-), but back to the DNA...

The DNA damage hypothesis is based upon experiments that used isolated
vitamin C in large quantities used in the test tube to go into why that
doesn't work I'd have to go into how antioxidants are believed (I do use the
word 'believe' on purpose as we don't know) in the body, I'm sure a lot of
you know but for those that don't here's my idiots version of how they do
their stuff (the idiots way was the easiest way for me to remember it :-)

First off plants build up energy from the sun & store it in the form of high
energy electrons

Next we eat the food & the electrons are taken within the cell where the
cell uses this stored energy relatively slowly, then passes on the 'spent'
electron to a waiting oxygen

There is a 'leakage' of high energy electrons, so oxygen sometimes links up
with 'powered up' electron & gains a whole load of energy, so it goes on a
rampage causing all sorts of damage

Along comes an antioxidant a whips the high energy electron from the oxygen
(vitamin C in this case)

Vitamin C can neutralise some of the energy, but unless it can pass it on to
another antioxidant then it will go on a rampage itself (so become a free
radical itself albeit somewhat weaker than an oxygen free radical)

So passes it on to vitamin E which again slightly lowers the energy again,
then passes it on etc all the way down a kind of antioxidant cascade with
each one weakening the free radical damage.

(NOTE: there are of course some specific antioxidants for some specific
free radicals so not all reactions appear the same & so a whole 'army' of
different antioxidants are needed)

So, let's go back to the vitamin C causes free radical damage. On its own
in a test tube we can make vitamin C a free radical, vitamin C takes the
energised electron from the oxygen, it lowers the energy of the electron
somewhat, then goes to pass it on. Oh dear, there is no other antioxidant
in the test tube, so vitamin C goes on a rampage, becomes a weak free
radical with the potential to cause DNA damage. Let's follow the same
'experiment' within a body (make a mind experiment up & see where it leads
us). I can see two possibilities myself (you might see something myself
that I missed):
Possibility 1: Within the body the vitamin C actually meets another suitable
antioxidant & so passes the free radical down the 'antioxidant cascade',
neutralising the free radical.

Possibility 2: The vitamin C doesn't find another suitable antioxidant & so
goes on a rampage, so becomes a weak free radical.

BUT, this vitamin C has just neutralised a strong free radical & so will do
much less damage than an oxygen free radical. So, is it not the case that
either way is a positive outcome?

The answer will depend upon how you believe antioxidants work. You may well
have a greater understanding of them than me & point out flaws in my
(admittedly) simplistic version of antioxidant function.

You are 100% right in one respect whole food is best, then natural
supplements, then finally synthetic. That's the way I try to approach all
my nutritional needs.

Look forward to getting the research stuff it should be an interesting read.

All the best,

Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Kirk McAnsh
Sent: 30 June 2007 12:55
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] Re: Boosting Immunity, getting rid of that
pesty cold/cough

I didn't deny the benefits of synthetic vitamin C (ascorbic acid), I merely
said that one of its main benefit is due to the fact that it acidifies the
body (ascorbic ACID) and that it is not without its risks above 500 mg. per
day (DNA damage). Synthetic vitamins are imposters of nature. They are man
made (usually from coal tar). They never occur in nature in the form or
concentration that "man" synthesizes them in the factory (usually by the big
pharmaceutical/industrial companies). They never have the all the co-factors
(minerals, enzymes, etc.) like they do in natural foods, nor do they have
them in the right (natural) ratios. In other words, food is your best source
of nutrition. Second best is whole food nutritional supplements (Standard
Process, MediHerb, Rainbow Light, Megafood, etc.).

I'll dig out my file today and post a list of books, articles, etc. in case
you (or anyone else) is interested.

----- Original Message -----
From: Pete
To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 29, 2007 5:41 AM
Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Re: Boosting Immunity, getting rid of that
pesty cold/cough

Umm, you didn't really address the question at all, just said about
being sick or weak? That didn't address the basic physiological fact
that the more acidic the body is, the weaker it performs? If you can
pass me the peer reviewed studies that show that vitamin C does only
make the body more acidic & doesn't actually have a beneficial effect
then I'd be glad to look them over, but you don't seem to be actually
making a case. As I said there is a case for taking vitamin C with a
food that naturally contains the substance, so you get all the co-
factors, but I've if you could point me in the direction of some of
your research into the subject then maybe I'd get a clearer idea of
what you're talking about?
Obviously a natural source of vitamin C would be superior, but
denying the beneficial effects of vitamin C? I think we do need some
form of proof in the form of peer reviewed studies before we simply
say taking vitamin C is just the same as ingesting any acid forming
substance within the body.

About vitamin C making the body more acid, yes you do ingest things
that are both acidic & alkaline all the time, your body though is a
fantastic mechanism that can balance out the bodies PH levels
internally. I was talking about your internal PH levels, not the PH
of the food you eat (which of course will depend on what you ate with
your vitamin C pill as well as the pill itself).
PH balance varies as you move through the bodies assimilation &
excretion system, so obviously the arterial PH is higher (more
alkaline), than the interstitial fluid levels (where fresh supplies
are deposited & rubbish removed from the cells); it is most acidic in
the venous system (which removes the waste products). Usually though
I believe that PH is measured by assessing arterial blood, although
I'm sure they must also have ways to take PH levels in all the places
within the body (but that is outside of the scope of my training).
Obviously with exercise the muscles are affected by interstitial acid
levels & the cells ability to diffuse the high acid levels within the
muscle cells into the interstitial fluid. The interstitial PH levels
will depend on the PH of the arterial blood, the amount of acid being
given out by the cells & the ability of the venous system to remove
any excess acidity from the interstitial fluid.
If you need me to go & find peer-reviewed studies that show the
benefit of vitamin C I'll go sort some out for you to read (just let
me know), but I've been unable to find the studies that imply what
you have been talking about, so if you could point me in the right
direction, then maybe we could sort out the discrepancies between the
facts you are quoting & what appears to happening in reality?
All the best,
Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org

--- In veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kirk McAnsh"
<kirkmcansh@...> wrote:
>
> I guess we may have to ask ourselves whether we want to be sick...
or weak! :^)
>
> How can the additional of a purified acid make the body anything
but more acidic?...
>
> PH balance of what?... The arterial blood?... The venous
blood?... The fluid inside of the muscle cell?... The fluid outside
of the muscle cell?...
>
> Certain parts/systems of the body will not function normally (or at
all) if they don't have the right pH. For instance, the stomach and
colon need to be acidic (think HCL and Acidophilus) and the small
intestine needs to be alkaline (in order for the pancreatic enzymes
to work normally). As far as the blood goes, the body will go to any
extreme to keep the blood in VERY narrow range of pH. It
will "steal" minerals out of the bones (even to the point of inducing
osteoporosis) to keep the blood pH in a VERY normal range. I'm not
that familiar with how they would go about measuring the pH inside of
a working muscle.
>
> The body needs vitamin C to make many other substances (including
testosterone) which are important for athletic performance. The body
also uses vitamin C to as an "oxygen conserving factor) would may
carry over into measurable athletic performance.
>
> As far as muscular strength goes, I know many weight lifters who
swear by taking a buffering compound before working out which
improves athletic performance. Twin lab even makes (or used to make)
a nutritional supplement that was basically sodium bicarbonate
(amongst other alkaline buffering agents).
>
> The diminished athletic performance that you are speaking of is due
to "lactate" threshold.
>
> The stores REAL vitamin C (think adrenal glands) whereas the body
dumps synthetic vitamin C.
>
> I've never heard of Kakadu plum, but I would try one if I could get
my hands on some!
>
> Thanks for the list of REAL vitamin C sources. I've seen a list of
the naturally-occurring nutrients in an apple and it is over 500!
>
> There is nothing better than meandering on the net while eating
some vegan fare!
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Pete
> To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, June 28, 2007 9:58 AM
> Subject: [veganbodybuilding] Re: Boosting Immunity, getting rid
of that pesty cold/cough
>
>
> Acidifying the system might make some sense, in terms of viruses
&
> bacteria, but this would make no sense in terms of muscular
> strength. If ascorbic acid where making the body more acidic,
then
> physical performance would decrease, not increase. I've spent
some
> time studying the efforts of PH balance on physical performance &
> that is a fact. The more acidic your system, the lower your
physical
> performance, so if ascorbic acid is causing a noticeable effect
on
> your PH levels, then your performance would diminish, it doesn't,
> when you take ascorbic acid your performance improves therefore
I'd
> say you can't be getting really noticeable changes in PH. When
you
> train it is, amongst other factors, the decreased PH & the body's
> inability to get rid of the extra-acidity that causes your
> performance to diminish. OK it is possible that there is some
> mitigating factor(s) that is(are) counterbalancing the change in
PH
> levels, but in that case you'd take vitamin C, take something
> alkaline that balances the PH levels, then get even more benefit
from
> the performance enhancing effects of vitamin C!
> I thought all forms of vitamin C had a `half-life' of 30 minutes
(so
> it becomes half as potent every thirty minutes). That's been the
> number quoted in every piece of scientific literature I've read,
but
> you may well have stumbled across research I've not seen (as I've
> said before most of my research is into performance improvement,
not
> so much `natural V synthetic' or optimum health, so I could
overlook
> some research in that area!).
> I did find this rather useful list on vitamin C in plants that
had a
> couple of fruits I'd never heard of, like the Kakadu plum with a
> truly huge vitamin C content! 100 grams of those little beauties
> would do you for your vitamin C intake, but where you'd get them
(in
> the UK in my case) I have no idea?
> Anyway, here's the list of fruits I found & their vitamin C
content
> http://server6.pictiger.com/img/364200/other/vitamin-c-in-plants-
.php
>
> Don't worry you're certainly not rambling. The list is all about
us
> discussing issues & reaching conclusions. Meandering is one of
the
> functions we all use to get there, as they're often complex
issues
> involved :-)
>
> All the best,
>
> Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
>
> --- In veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com> , "Kirk McAnsh"
> <kirkmcansh@> wrote:
> >
> > The reason people notice any benefit from ascorbic acid is not
that
> it is real vitamin C, but rather because it acidifies the system.
> Most viruses and bacteria can't live in an acidic medium
(contrary to
> popular belief).
> >
> > The best two substances known to acidify ones system naturally
are
> a product called "Cal*Amo" and another product called "Phosfood"
> (organic phosphorus).
> >
> > Plus, the reason the body gets rid of ascorbic acid quickly is
> because it is looked at by the body as a foreign invader - it is
not
> recognizable by the body without the other ingredients. If a
person
> chooses to take ascorbic acid, it is best taken in small doses of
100
> mg. every 3-4 hours throughout the day. That way it "sneaks" by
the
> body's defenses and is better utilized.
> >
> > Furthermore, from my studies, I have read numerous places that
> acidifying foods/supplements are best taken in the morning and
> alkalizing foods/supplements in the evening which corresponds to
the
> daily cycles of body preference.
> >
> > I've got several articles/books that cover these topics in
greater
> detail.
> >
> > Please notice that I'm NOT saying that ascorbic acid doesn't
work -
> I'm just saying their are better ways to make the body more
acidic -
> without damaging our DNA. Also, I've found that ascorbic acid and
> real vitamin C work well with Echinacea and that they both work
best
> taken long-term (again, contrary to popular belief).
> >
> > Sorry about the ramble...
> >
> >
> > Dr. Kirk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Vegan Bodybuilding
> > To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, June 27, 2007 11:24 AM
> > Subject: RE: [veganbodybuilding] Boosting Immunity, getting rid
> of that pesty cold/cough
> >
> >
> > I think most people agree that ideally vitamin C, like most
> vitamins should
> > be taken with foods containing the substance, so you'd get
better
> > utilisation. I'd love to find a pill that contains the whole
> Vitamin C
> > complex, but I've yet to find one that gives me enough to have
an
> effect on
> > me. I use Vitamin C to off-set hayfever (& when I feel
myself 'on
> the edge'
> > of illness). I've not come across negative DNA or bodily
effects
> from
> > Vitamin C, infact I've only found DNA protective effects from
> Vitamin
> > (although admittedly I've not done a real search to check this
> out-see
> > details of my quick search below), & improved strength &
athletic
> ability
> > from supplementation (that's with ascorbic acid alone). I
> wouldn't use
> > chewable Vitamin C as you are right it can cause tooth trouble
(I
> just
> > swallow the pill), but as I said many of us needing relief from
> ailments &
> > those wanting athletic improvement can only achieve this with
> higher than
> > quoted vitamin C intakes & unless you've stumbled across a
decent
> pill that
> > isn't too expensive & delivers at least 500mg of vitamin C then
> we're kind
> > of stuck taking it in isolated form.
> > I'll go dig up some references for the above statements & add
> them in at the
> > end by the way (as I know you lot like them peer reviewed
> studies :-)
> >
> > All the best,
> >
> > Pete www.veganbodybuilding.org
> >
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > OK let's go have a look at my records:
> >
> > Let's start with teeth:
> >
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?
> Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermTo
> >
>
Search=1299255&ordinalpos=14&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed
> _Resul
> > tsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
> >
> > Salivary pH while dissolving vitamin C-containing tablets.
> >
> > Hays GL, Bullock Q, Lazzari EP, Puente ES.
> >
> > Am J Dent. 1992 Oct;5(5):269-71
> >
> > Department of Oral Diagnostic Sciences, Dental Branch,
University
> of Texas
> > Health Science Center, Houston 77030.
> > Vitamin C is packaged in numerous forms which allow protracted
> exposure of
> > the teeth to ascorbic acid. The repeated use of chewable mega
> dose tablets
> > of vitamin C as a mint can damage the teeth by dissolving the
> enamel. In the
> > time it takes to dissolve a chewable vitamin C tablet, a
salivary
> pH drop
> > takes place; salivary calcium and phosphorus ion concentration
> drops, and
> > enamel dissolution may begin. Although sodium ascorbate, a
> buffering agent,
> > is present in many vitamin C products, it may be added in
> insufficient
> > quantity to be effective. With no apparent therapeutic value
from
> topical
> > vitamin C, vitamin C-containing products should be swallowed.
> >
> > That's pretty much all you need to know - Pete
> >
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~
> > Vitamin C damaging DNA:
> >
> > OK I did a quick search of pubmed & net & it seems there have
> been a couple
> > of scares about vitamin C using test tube models, as I said
> though I've not
> > done any real research on this, so anyone with any more info
(or
> willing to
> > search it up) it would be nice, just so we get the full story,
> anyway here's
> > the odds & ends I found (I've included just one pubmed study,
one
> study from
> > scientific world & a couple of webpages)
> >
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> >
>
http://www.thescientificworld.com/SCIENTIFICWORLDJOURNAL/toc/TSWJ_Arti
> cleLan
> > ding.asp?
> jid=&FromPage=Search&ArticleId=2094&navFrom=Search&From=Result
> >
> > Analysis of glutathione and vitamin C effects
> > Pitarque, M. ; Creus, A. ; Marcos, R.
> > TheScientificWorldJOURNAL
> > 2006
> > Volume: 6
> > Page Range: 1191-1201
> >
> > Abstract
> > The alkaline single-cell gel electrophoresis (or Comet) assay
was
> applied to
> > evaluate the eventual DNA damage induced by the triphenolic
> metabolite of
> > benzene, 1,2,4-benzenetriol (BT), in isolated human
lymphocytes.
> Prior to BT
> > treatment, ranging from 5 to 50 mM, a supplementation with
> glutathione (GSH,
> > 350 mg/ml) was carried out to assess whether GSH may have a
> modulating
> > effect on the Comet response. The effect of a fixed dose of BT
> was also
> > evaluated in the presence of the exogenous antioxidant vitamin
C
> (40 and 200
> > mM). Additionally, we investigated whether the polymorphism of
> glutathione
> > S-transferase T1 (GSTT1) gene may affect the individual level
of
> BT-induced
> > DNA damage in vitro. For all donors included in the present
> study, BT
> > produced a significant dose-response relationship. No clear
> effect of GSH
> > preincubation was seen on the BT-induced response. On the
> contrary, a
> > significant reduction of DNA damage was observed in the
presence
> of vitamin
> > C (at least at 200 mM). Although our data suggest some
individual
> > differences according to the GSTT1 genotype in the outcome of
the
> Comet
> > assay, a large number of individuals should be studied in
further
> > investigations to obtain reliable conclusions.
> >
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > (this is not specific to high doses of vitamin C)
> > http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?
> Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermTo
> >
>
Search=17512695&ordinalpos=7&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed
> _Resul
> > tsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
> > Protective effect of vitamin C towards N-nitrosamine-induced
DNA
> damage in
> > the single-cell gel electrophoresis (SCGE)/HepG2 assay.
> > Arranz N, Haza AI, García A, Rafter J, Morales P.
> > Departamento de Nutrición, Bromatología y Tecnología de los
> Alimentos,
> > Facultad de Veterinaria, Universidad Complutense de Madrid,
28040
> Madrid,
> > Spain.
> >
> > The aim of this study was to investigate the protective effect
of
> vitamin C
> > towards N-nitrosamine-induced DNA damage in the single-cell gel
> > electrophoresis (SCGE)/HepG2 assay. None of the vitamin C
> concentrations
> > tested (1-10muM) in presence or absence of formamidopyrimidine-
DNA
> > glycosylase (Fpg enzyme) caused DNA damage per se. HepG2 cells
> > simultaneously treated with vitamin C and N-
nitrosodimethylamine
> (NDMA),
> > N-nitrosopyrrolidine (NPYR), N-nitrosodibutylamine (NDBA) or
> > N-nitrosopiperidine (NPIP) reduced the genotoxic effects of the
> > N-nitrosamines in a dose-dependent manner. At concentrations of
1-
> 5muM
> > vitamin C, the protective effect was higher towards NPYR-
induced
> oxidative
> > DNA damage (78-79%) than against NDMA (39-55%), NDBA (12-14%)
and
> NPIP
> > (3-55%), in presence of Fpg enzyme. However, a concentration of
> 10muM
> > vitamin C led to a maximum reduction in NDBA (94%), NPYR (81%),
> NPIP (80%)
> > and NDMA (61%)-induced oxidative DNA damage, in presence of Fpg
> enzyme. The
> > greatest protective effect of vitamin C (10muM) was higher
towards
> > NDBA-induced oxidative DNA damage. One feasible mechanism by
> which vitamin C
> > exerted its protective effect is that may interact with the
> enzyme systems
> > catalyzing the metabolic activation of the N-nitrosamines,
> blocking the
> > production of genotoxic intermediates. Vitamin C (10muM)
strongly
> reduced
> > the coumarin hydroxylase (82%) activity. However, the p-
> nitrophenol
> > hydroxylase and the ethoxyresorufine O-deethylation activities
> were slightly
> > and weakly reduced (32-19%), respectively.
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > (Here are some webpages I just stumbled across, I've not
verified
> the
> > research, nor the responses, so make of them what you will)
> > http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/vita-c.html
> >
> > Vitamin C? Gene damage?
> > How do you make sense of the research?
> > Bad studies may be more dangerous than vitamins...
> > Does Vitamin C Really Damage DNA?
> >
> > Commentary © 1998 by Jack Challem, The Nutrition ReporterT
> > Updated on April 12, 1998
> > All rights reserved.
> >
> > You may copy this specific article in its entirety and
> redistribute it for
> > free. You may also excerpt parts of it for publication so long
as
> you
> > attribute it to "Jack Challem, The Nutrition Reporter ©1998."
> >
> > First, it was beta-carotene. Now it's vitamin C. Next it will
> probably be
> > vitamin E.
> >
> > The question: are dietary supplements safe?
> >
> > A study in the April 9, 1998, journal Nature (1) reported that
> 500 mg of
> > vitamin C daily causes damage to DNA, the complex protein that
> forms your
> > genes. Gene damage makes people edgy because it sometimes leads
> to cancer.
> >
> > But all of the headlines could just as well have stated that
> vitamin C
> > supplements prevented DNA damage. That's because the same study
> also found
> > that vitamin C did that as well.
> >
> > Confused? You should be! Almost every week, you're pulled in
> contrary
> > directions with positive and negative studies on vitamins,
drugs,
> and most
> > other things.
> >
> > Take the beta-carotene studies. They showed that long-term
> smokers had a
> > slightly greater risk of developing lung cancer if they took
beta-
> carotene
> > supplements. But the same data also found that smokers had
better
> lung
> > function with beta-carotene, and that former smokers had a
lower
> risk of
> > lung cancer with beta-carotene.
> >
> > Another analysis of the data found that beta-carotene reduced
the
> risk of
> > prostate cancer among these smokers, but only if they didn't
> drink alcohol.
> > If they did drink, the beta-carotene increased the risk of
> prostate cancer.
> >
> > All this soon starts to sound like a Three Stooges routine,
with
> supplements
> > being good if you take them on Tuesdays under a full moon while
> standing on
> > one foot. But if you take them on Wednesdays under a half moon
> while
> > standing on both feet, forget it.
> >
> > That brings me, in a circular way, back to the vitamin C study.
> >
> > This study, which has alarmed so many people, was described
> as "scientific
> > correspondence" ­ essentially, a letter to the editor ­ in
Nature.
> The
> > researchers measured only two of the 20 markers of free radical
> damage to
> > DNA. We have no idea how vitamin C affected the other 18
markers
> of DNA
> > damage.
> >
> > If we applied the same standard of DNA damage to foods we
> regularly eat, we
> > would probably ban hamburgers, hot dogs, steaks, sausages,
bacon,
> and ham
> > sandwiches. That's because cooking meat generates chemicals
called
> > heterocyclic amines, well documented for their ability to
damage
> DNA.
> >
> > Bruce N. Ames, Ph.D., of the University of California,
Berkeley,
> has often
> > pointed out that about half of all chemicals, natural and
> synthetic, cause
> > DNA damage. He notes that naturally occurring compounds in
> alfalfa sprouts
> > (canavanine), broccoli (isothiocyanate), potato (solanine),
celery
> > (psoralen), and onion (quercetin), and most fruits and
vegetables
> cause DNA
> > damage.
> >
> > But no one warns us to stay away from such foods because their
> benefits far
> > outweigh their risks. And, as Ames has also pointed out, the
> body's DNA
> > repair enzymes ­ which are largely dependent on the B vitamins ­
> fix nearly
> > all of the damage.
> >
> > The totality of the scientific evidence supports the view that
> relatively
> > high levels of vitamin C are good for health and relatively low
> levels are
> > bad for health.
> >
> > Just about any cell biologist or biochemist will tell you that
> every
> > antioxidant ­ of which vitamin C is one ­ becomes a weak free
> radical (or
> > pro-oxidant) when it quenches free radicals, molecules known to
> damage and
> > break DNA and set the stage for cancer and coronary heart
disease.
> >
> > But, as Lester Packer, Ph.D., also of the University of
> California,
> > Berkeley, has frequently pointed out, antioxidants also work as
a
> team and
> > recycle each other back to full-bodied antioxidants, ready to
> scour more
> > free radicals.
> >
> > Still other researchers have reported that high doses of
vitamin
> C protect
> > against DNA damage in blood cells, eye lenses, and sperm. Some
> studies have
> > even shown that too little vitamin C causes DNA damage.
> >
> > Balz Frei, Ph.D., director of the Linus Pauling Institute at
> Oregon State
> > University, Corvallis, has pointed out that other studies
directly
> > contradict the findings of the Nature study.
> >
> > Furthermore, Frei, Ames, and Packer quickly went on record
> criticizing the
> > Nature study's methodology. Ames, one of the most distinguished
> scientists
> > in the world, bluntly called it "bad science."
> >
> > We could have a tug of war with every new study. After all,
it's
> easy to
> > marshal evidence in support of one theory or another.
Scientists
> do it all
> > the time.
> >
> > But I have a better idea. Let's just slow down, get a few more
> facts, and
> > provide a larger context for such research. Otherwise, we're
> doomed to
> > always have six studies of one view and six of another ­ and no
> way to make
> > sense of any of them.
> >
> > (1) Researchers at the University of Leicester, England, gave
30
> healthy
> > subjects 500 mg of vitamin C daily for six weeks. They measured
> the DNA in
> > peripheral blood lymphocytes for damage. They noted a
significant
> increase
> > in 8-oxoadenine levels, a marker of DNA damage and a
significant
> decrease in
> > 8-oxoguanine levels, another (and better established) marker of
> DNA damage.
> > Podmore ID, et al., "Vitamin C exhibits pro-oxidant
properties,"
> Nature,
> > April 9, 1998;392:559.
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > http://www.vitamintrader.com/articles/2001_06_vitcanddna.html
> > JUNE, 2001
> > VITAMIN C & DNA DAMAGE INCORRECTLY LINKED
> > PHILADELPHIA-In a study making the media rounds, research from
the
> > University of Pennsylvania is being hyped as finding a link
> between DNA
> > damage and Vitamin C. However, the research was not conducted
on
> people, but
> > rather in test tubes that simulated reactions that do not occur
> in the human
> > body. The study is published in the June 15 Journal of Science
> > (292:2083-6,2001) (www.sciencemag.org).
> >
> > In test tube assays, researchers looked at the effect of
Vitamin
> C (in
> > amounts comparative to 200 mg/dl) on lipid hydroperoxides
> (polyunsaturated
> > fatty acids). DNA damage occurred when the antioxidant was
added
> to the
> > fatty acids, an angle that mainstream media immediately picked
up.
> >
> > Ascorbic acid was applied to purified polyunsaturated fatty
acids
> that had
> > been oxidized chemically in the laboratory-something that would
> not happen
> > in a living cell in humans. "The issue here is that the
> researchers created
> > a very artificial environment in these test tubes," said John
> Hathcock, vice
> > president of nutrition and regulatory science at the Washington-
> based
> > Council for Responsible Nutrition (CRN). "These researchers are
> chemists,
> > not biologists. I don't consider this study flawed, but
> misdirected and
> > over-interpreted by the media."
> >
> > Even one of the study's authors, Ian Blair, is trying to defuse
> the bomb
> > that mainstream media has dropped into newspapers and
broadcasts
> across the
> > country. In an interview with Reuters, Blair was concerned
about
> the media
> > sensationalizing these results. "Absolutely for God's sake
don't
> say Vitamin
> > C causes cancer," he told the news service. In addition, Better
> Nutrition
> > magazine (www.betternutrition.com), based in Stamford, Conn.,
was
> able to
> > catch up with the sought-after doctor in Scotland. "The study
is
> being
> > over-interpreted," said Blair in the June 15 interview. "I've
> been trying to
> > de-sensationalize the paper by referring people to other
studies
> that have
> > not found direct evidence of Vitamin C supplementation
preventing
> cancer."
> >
> > In fact, a great amount of research has found a correlation
> between Vitamin
> > C and its health benefits, including recent research showing
that
> smokers
> > may experience reduced DNA damage when taking the vitamin (Free
> Radic Res
> > 2001 Mar; 34(3):209-19). Moreover, last year the Food and
> Nutrition Board
> > ofthe Institute of Medicine at the National Academy of Sciences
> (NAS) found
> > from a comprehensive review of Vitamin C studies that no
evidence
> supports
> > that Vitamin C damages DNA in humans.
> >
> > "No one can categorically say that these results can't happen
in
> the human
> > body," said Hathcock. "But one can't categorically say that
> Jupiter is not
> > full of green cheese." He added that this study provides no
> reason for any
> > consumer to stop taking Vitamin C.
> >
> >
> > The nutritional statements above are provided for informational
> purposes
> > only and have not been evaluated by the Food and Drug
> Administration. They
> > are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent disease.
We
> encourage
> > you to seek information from qualified practitioners in the
> health care
> > field.
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > http://www.supplementquality.com/news/vitaminC_DNA.html
> > Vitamin C and DNA Damage: Real Danger or False Alarm?
> > 24 July 2001
> > by Wyn Snow, Managing Editor
> >
> > Once again, headlines are suggesting that taking vitamin C
> supplements could
> > pose a health risk, but surprisingly, behind the headlines is
the
> fact that
> > this "health risk" is based on the results of one study
> (published in
> > Science on 15 June 2001). Here's how major media outlets played
> the story:
> >
> > Vitamin C Supplements May Be Harmful -- from ABCnews.com
> >
> > Vitamin C Can Damage DNA, Study Shows -- from Reuters Health
> (Yahoo news)
> >
> > Vitamin C Found to Promote Cancer-Causing Agents -- from
Reuters
> (Yahoo
> > news)
> >
> > Vitamin C May Be Two-Edged Sword -- from HealthSCOUT.com
> >
> > and even that source of all the news that's fit to print, The
New
> York
> > Times, said:
> >
> > Vitamin C Pills Tied to DNA Risk -- from NYTimes.com
> >
> > It seems a safe bet that most Americans saw at least one of
these
> reports.
> > But are the headlines right? Are we risking DNA damage by
taking
> vitamin C
> > supplements?
> >
> > Study looked at vitamin C in test tube
> >
> > It turns out that the Science study is of general interest, if
> only for the
> > way it shows how vitamin C behaves in a test tube under unusual
> conditions.
> > But that has almost no relevance to what happens inside a
living
> body.
> >
> > The study's lead author, Ian Blair PhD, tried to calm the media
> reports. In
> > an interview with Better Nutrition magazine, Blair said, "The
> study is being
> > over-interpreted. I've been trying to de-sensationalize the
paper
> by
> > referring people to other studies that have not found direct
> evidence of
> > vitamin C supplementation preventing cancer." Also, Reuters
said
> that Blair
> > told them, "Absolutely for God's sake don't say vitamin C
causes
> cancer."
> >
> > To answer concerns raised by these headlines,
> SupplementQuality.com went to
> > the world leaders in vitamin C research: the Linus Pauling
> Institute at
> > Oregon State University. They had already posted an analysis of
> the Science
> > article on their website. We summarize their points here. (See
> also the link
> > to their full analysis in our list of Sources, below.)
> >
> > Test tube results not always relevant to living cells
> >
> > The Science study created an environment in a test tube --
> combining vitamin
> > C with rancid (oxidized) fat molecules. Any test tube situation
> is relevant
> > to human biochemistry only insofar as it mimics the conditions
> inside a
> > living cell. The test-tube setting of this study varied
> significantly from
> > in vivo conditions in several important ways:
> >
> > The study used a concentration of fat molecules that is
> approximately 10,000
> > times more intense than has ever been found in a living body.
> >
> > Living cells also contain enzymes that change rancid fat
> molecules into
> > harmless "alcohols" within a fraction of a second -- which
means
> that the
> > fat molecules are no longer "there" to react with any vitamin C
> that is also
> > in the cell. (In the Science study, the interaction between
> vitamin C and
> > fat molecules was conducted over a two-hour period.)
> >
> > Perhaps most telling of all, studies at the Linus Pauling
> Institute have
> > shown that fat molecules in blood serum don't become rancid
until
> vitamin C
> > has been exhausted. In other words, vitamin C protects fat
> molecules from
> > becoming rancid in the first place -- so they never coexist!
> >
> > Similar controversy emerged in 1998
> >
> > In 1998, a team of British scientists at the University of
> Leicester gave
> > 500 mg of vitamin C to 30 healthy subjects every day for six
> weeks. They
> > then examined two markers of DNA damage in the blood of their
> subjects --
> > finding that one went up while the other went down -- and
> published this
> > finding in the Correspondence section of Nature on 9 April
1998.
> This report
> > also made headlines as "Vitamin C Can Cause Cancer" -- and was
> soon heavily
> > critiqued by other vitamin C researchers.
> >
> > The controversy exists because vitamin C -- like other
> antioxidants --
> > becomes a weak free radical (or pro-oxidant) right after it
> neutralizes a
> > dangerous free radical. At this stage, vitamin C and other
> antioxidants do
> > have the capacity to damage DNA. However, antioxidants work
> together to
> > restore each other back into fully potent antioxidants, so this
> weak free
> > radical stage is very brief.
> >
> > Many methodological problems were present in the research
> reported in
> > Nature. At the very least, there are roughly twenty markers for
> DNA damage
> > that are appropriate to examine. Of the two that the British
> researchers
> > looked at, the marker that went down is some 10 times more
> dangerous than
> > the one that went up. Also, the methodology they used to
extract
> DNA from
> > the cells is known to produce false results!
> >
> > Bruce N. Ames, PhD, of the University of California, Berkeley,
> one of the
> > world's most distinguished scientists, bluntly characterized
the
> Nature
> > research as "bad science." Ames also notes that roughly half of
> all
> > chemicals, both synthetic and natural, cause DNA damage --
> including
> > compounds found in most fruits and vegetables. However, the
> friendly
> > chemicals in these substances far outweigh the dangerous ones;
the
> > preponderance of research finds that eating more fruits and
> vegetables is
> > beneficial to our health.
> >
> > Evidence leans toward vitamin C as cancer-fighter
> >
> > According to the Linus Pauling Institute, many animal and cell
> culture
> > studies have shown anti-cancer effects of vitamin C. The
vitamin
> has also
> > been used therapeutically in human cancer patients with some
> apparent
> > benefit.
> >
> > Diets rich in vitamin C lower the risk of cancer, heart
disease,
> stroke and
> > other chronic degenerative diseases. Also, the body does not
> distinguish
> > between vitamin C from fruits and vegetables and the synthetic
> form found in
> > supplements. The bottom line? Evidence indicates that you will
do
> yourself a
> > lot of good by taking vitamin C supplements, and certainly no
> harm!
> >
> > Vitamin C is one of the safest supplements. How much to take,
> however, is a
> > controversial question. The RDA is set at 90 mg/day for men and
> 75 mg/day
> > for women. According to the federal Institute of Medicine,
> healthy adults
> > can safely consume as much as 2,000 mg/day; some experts
believe
> the safe
> > upper level is considerably higher.
> >
> > Sources
> >
> > This year's study concerning vitamin C and DNA was published in
> Science, Vol
> > 292, pages 2083-2086, 15 June 2001. www.sciencemag.org.
> >
> > News about this study appeared in many publications and
websites,
> as
> > summarized at the top of this article; the following
ABCNEWS.com
> story is
> > typical: ABCNEWS.com. "Vitamin C Supplements May Be Harmful."
> ABCNEWS.com
> > website, 15 June 2001. [link to article has expired.]
> >
> > Information criticizing this study was found in: Natural
Products
> Insider.
> > "Vitamin C and DNA Damage Incorrectly Linked." Natural Products
> Insider
> > website, 15 June 2001.
> > www.naturalproductsinsider.com/hotnews/16h151622.html.
> >
> > Linus Pauling Institute. "Does Vitamin C Cause Cancer - or Here
> We Go
> > Again!" Linus Pauling Institute website, 15 June 2001.
> > osu.orst.edu/dept/lpi/new/vitamincancer2.html.
> >
> > David Stauth. "Indictment of Vitamin C Questionable, Expert
> Says." Linus
> > Pauling Institute, 6 July 2001.
> > www.orst.edu/dept/lpi/new/atherosclerosis.html.
> >
> > The other study about vitamin C and DNA was Ian D. Podmore et
> al, "Vitamin C
> > exhibits pro-oxidant properties," Nature, Vol 392, page 559, 9
> April 1998.
> >
> > Information criticizing this study and describing details of
how
> vitamin C
> > performs as an antioxidant was found in: Jack Challem. "Vitamin
> C? Gene
> > damage? How do you make sense of the research?" Commentary on
his
> website,
> > 12 April 1998. www.thenutritionreporter.com/vita-c.html.
> >
> > Balz Frei, PhD, in an interview with Richard A. Passwater. "New
> Research
> > Findings On Vitamin C Safety: An interview with Dr. Balz Frei.
> Part 1: The
> > Pro-Oxidant Myth." Dr. Frei is one of the world's leading
> researchers in
> > vitamin C; this interview was published in Whole Foods
Magazine,
> 1998.
> >
> > Life Extension Foundation. "Life Extension Foundation's Updated
> Vitamin C
> > Rebuttal." Life Extension Foundation website, 14 April 1998.
> > www.lef.org/magazine/articles/vitc_damage2.html.
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > http://www.mercola.com/2001/jun/23/vitamin_c.htm
> > Does Vitamin C Really Damage Your DNA?
> >
> > Vitamin C is an essential protector of body cells.
> >
> > A newly published study says the vitamin can also play a "dual
> role" and, at
> > times, actually damages cells' genetic material. Investigators
> say their
> > findings could help explain why high-dose vitamin C has so far
> failed as an
> > experimental cancer therapy.
> >
> > The study showed that rancid fat molecules can react with
vitamin
> C to form
> > products that could potentially harm DNA, although the reaction
> of these
> > products with DNA was not demonstrated in the study.
> >
> > Hence, it was suggested that vitamin C can form genotoxins (DNA-
> damaging
> > agents) from lipid hydroperoxides, the implication being that
> vitamin C may
> > enhance mutagenesis and the risk of cancer.
> >
> > Previous research has shown vitamin C can promote DNA damage,
but
> this new
> > research demonstrates a different avenue the vitamin can take
in
> doing harm.
> > In the average person, vitamin C may regularly act as both a
> cell's friend
> > and foe, making a daily megadose of vitamin C unlikely to fight
> illness.
> >
> > This is a test tube experiment and here is "little evidence"
that
> these
> > harmful effects of vitamin C are actually going on in the body.
> >
> > What's more, a significant number of studies have shown vitamin
C
> to either
> > have no effect or a positive impact on DNA.
> >
> > As an antioxidant, vitamin C helps neutralize cell-damaging
free
> radicals,
> > which are byproducts of metabolism found throughout the body.
> Because of
> > this activity, some scientists have suggested that high doses
of
> vitamin C
> > might help battle cancer by both protecting healthy cells from
> the assaults
> > of cancer treatment and by fighting tumor cells.
> >
> > The free radicals that vitamin C normally combats can damage
DNA
> directly or
> > by converting certain fatty acids into genotoxins. The
> researchers found
> > that in the test tube, vitamin C can also give rise to
genotoxins
> by
> > oxidizing these fats.
> >
> > According to the researchers, these findings suggest it will be
> particularly
> > important to be on guard for cell damage among participants in
> trials using
> > vitamin C as a cancer combatant.
> >
> > For healthy people the message echoes tried-and-true nutrition
> advice: eat a
> > balanced diet rich in fruits and vegetables rather than popping
a
> high-dose
> > vitamin C pill, since the vitamin is no "magic bullet."
> >
> > The popularity among health-conscious Americans for popping
> vitamin C pills
> > was boosted by Linus Pauling, a Nobel-prize-winning chemist who
> advocated
> > large doses of the vitamin. He routinely took 15 grams daily
and
> was 93
> > years old when he died in 1994.
> >
> > However, a nutrient expert at the institution named for
Pauling,
> said such
> > large doses of vitamin C have not been proven to be beneficial
in
> clinical
> > studies. The Linus Pauling Institute does not currently endorse
> megadoses or
> > promote vitamin C in preventing a cold.
> >
> > They also only recommend taking 200 mg of vitamin C as a
healthy
> body can
> > only absorb about that much a day and the surplus is carried
away
> with the
> > urine.Their advice is to eat a healthy diet rich in fruits and
> vegetables.
> >
> > The Institute of Medicine, an arm of the National Academy of
> Sciences,
> > recommends that women need 75 milligrams of vitamin C daily and
90
> > milligrams for men. Smokers need an additional 35 milligrams.
> These are
> > levels easily achieved by a balanced diet.
> >
> > Science June 15, 2001;292:2083-2086 and Washington Post June
14,
> 2001
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >
> > Dr. Mercola's Comment:
> >
> > The media has attempted to place a negative spin on vitamin C.
If
> you want
> > to understand why this is, please review the excellent article
I
> posted last
> > year.
> >
> > There are many reasons why this study is not supportive of the
> fear being
> > suggested that vitamin C will cause cancer. They will be
reviewed
> further
> > down in this response.
> >
> > However, recent studies show that Americans only consume about
100
> > milligrams of vitamin C from foods and that about 5% of
Americans
> consume so
> > little vitamin C that they exhibit signs of scurvy.
> >
> > So some of us need to increase our vitamin C intake. The
solution
> is to
> > obviously increase your vegetables and fruits. If for some
reason
> you can't
> > do that, then you should consider a vitamin C supplement that
is
> balanced
> > with bioflavanoids.
> >
> > However, always remember, that whole foods are nearly always a
> better choice
> > than supplements.
> >
> > It is interesting to note that the Linus Pauling Institute does
> not promote
> > megavitamin therapy for healthy adults and they are in
agreement
> with lower
> > doses as mentioned in the story above.
> >
> > There are conditions, such as high levels of a certain
substance
> called
> > Lp(a) in which megadoses of vitamin C may be useful.
> >
> > They also posted a report on this study which does a wonderful
> job of
> > breaking it down and providing you with the truth behind the
> headlines.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >
> > To learn more, try the Linus Pauling Institute's Vitamin C
> information page.
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> > ----
> >
> > COMMENT FROM LINUS PAULING INSTITUTE:
> >
> > Let us remember that this study is a test tube experiment. The
> study does
> > not describe biochemistry or biology, and its relevance to
> reactions
> > occurring in cells and tissues of the human body is unknown.
Many
> reactions
> > of vitamin C occur in vitro (in the test tube) that will not
and
> cannot
> > occur in vivo (in the living organism).
> >
> > Why?
> >
> > Because the physiological environment of the cell and the body
> contains
> > thousands of substances that also react with vitamin C and
rancid
> fats thus
> > derailing the chemistry observed in a test tube system.
> >
> > Rancid fats don't just wait around in vivo to bump into a
vitamin
> C
> > molecule, but instead are very rapidly reduced to
> harmless "alcohols" by a
> > number of enzymes.
> >
> > Thus, the reaction rate of rancid fats with these enzymes
> compared to the
> > reaction rate of the rancid fats with vitamin C is of crucial
> importance and
> > this was not measured in the Science study.
> >
> > From what we know from the study, incubations were done for two
> hours, an
> > eternity in biochemical terms. Enzymatic reactions as those
> indicated above
> > to reduce rancid fats to harmless alcohols that do not react
with
> vitamin C
> > usually take a fraction of a second, not two hours!
> >
> > It is interesting to note that vitamin C effectively inhibits
the
> formation
> > of rancid fats in the first place. Thus, when your blood is
> exposed to
> > oxidizing conditions, vitamin C forms the first line of
> antioxidant defense,
> > and no lipid rancid fats are formed.
> >
> > Rancid fats begin to form only after vitamin C has been
> exhausted. Thus, in
> > these experiments rancid fats and vitamin C did not exist
> simultaneously in
> > blood, and thus never had the opportunity to react with each
> other.
> >
> > What's more, the Science study used a concentration of rancid
> fats which in
> > biochemical terms was "a ton." Studies have shown that, in
blood,
> rancid
> > fats exist in concentrations which are 10,000-fold lower than
> what was used
> > in the Science experiment. Again, this casts serious doubt on
the
> relevance
> > of these results for living organisms.
> >
> > To conclude from this study that vitamin C causes cancer would
be
> as
> > preposterous as to say that we have found a cure for cancer
based
> on a
> > simple test tube experiment.
> >
> > In fact, many animal studies and cell culture experiments have
> demonstrated
> > anticancer effects of vitamin C, and the vitamin has been used
> > therapeutically in human cancer patients with some apparent
> benefit.
> >
> > Abstracted from Linus Pauling Institute Release
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > Next we're onto strength & athletic performance (although
> admittedly my main
> > focus is strength & recovery from strength activities :-).
These
> are good
> > old fashioned studies on paper I've got, I'm sure they will be
on
> the net
> > somewhere if someone wants to look them up, but I've got to get
> on in a bit,
> > so I'm going to summarise & if you want more go & search it out:
> >
> > Supplementing with vitamin C between 500 & 3000mg per day
improves
> > efficiency of submaximal workloads, increases peak capacity &
> increases
> > muscular strength
> > Bramich et al, 1987; Howald et al 1975; Beam et al 1998
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > The main worries with high intakes of vitamin C (at or over
> 1000mg per day)
> > appear to be: may decrease absorption of key minerals, may
cause
> diarrhea,
> > could cause kidney stones. Safe doses commonly stated for
healthy
> > individuals range from Johnson 1999 2-4 grams per day, to below
1
> gram from
> > Levine (also in 1999). (Note: I haven't got those last 2
studies
> [Johnson &
> > Levine] I was just quoting from references in other literature
as
> it seems a
> > good way to show that there is a divergence in option as to
what
> constitutes
> > a safe dose for vitamin C.)
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
> > Hopefully that's enough for everyone to chew on for now, I'm
off
> to train
> > now, so don't expect too much intellectual work for a few hours
> as the blood
> > will be leaving my brain for a bit :-)
> > Bye for now..................
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> >
>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > From: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> > [mailto:veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Kirk
> McAnsh
> > Sent: 27 June 2007 01:39
> > To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] Boosting Immunity, getting rid
> of that
> > pesty cold/cough
> >
> > Be careful about "Vitamin C" as most of it is only ascorbic
acid
> which is
> > NEVER found in nature without the rest of the vitamin C complex
> (tyrosinase,
> > vitamin P, etc.) If you take only ascorbic acid your body will
be
> forced to
> > pull the other components out of storage and you will wind
> up "robbing Peter
> > to pay Paul" as they saying goes. Plus, the ascorbic acid can
> destroy the
> > enamel of your teeth and in doses above 500 mg. has been shown
to
> damage
> > DNA! You are much better off getting REAL vitamin C (as found
in
> nature)
> > from whole foods (or whole food nutritional supplements).
> >
> > Dr. Kirk
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: xjenx
> > To: veganbodybuilding@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:veganbodybuilding%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2007 7:00 PM
> > Subject: Re: [veganbodybuilding] Boosting Immunity, getting rid
> of that
> > pesty cold/cough
> >
> > Since seeing Pat, when I had almost 5 colds a year *touch wood*
I
> havent had
> > one.
> >
> > Before this I was eating practically no fruit (was sensitive to
> the sugars)
> > and almost no raw food. So I'd say fruit and raw! I also love
the
> taste of
> > chewable vitamin C and have a couple a day like sweets :)
> >
> > xjenx
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.8/869 - Release Date:
> 6/25/2007
> > 5:32 PM
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/873 - Release Date:
> 6/26/2007 11:54 PM
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------
----------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.10/875 - Release Date:
6/27/2007 9:08 PM
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.12/878 - Release Date: 6/28/2007
5:57 PM

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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/882 - Release Date: 6/30/2007
3:10 PM

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.9.14/883 - Release Date: 7/1/2007 12:19
PM


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]