Anyone ever given any thought to locks?
There's a bit of a conflict of interest there because by their nature
generally the heavier the lock the more secure it is.
No lock will stop a thief if (s)he really wants to take your bike and
has enough time.
I suppose for myself at least I don't plan on leaving my bike alone
for long enough for a would be thief to comprimise the lock. When/If I
do leave my bike for extended periods of time I'm more likely to try
and leave it with in one of the following places...
a)in a hotel. this is the best option.
b)with staff of a campground
c)a trustworthy family or group at a campground provided you can
garantee they won't be leaving it.
d)sometimes a shop keeper (especially a bike shop keeper) will do you a favour.

So what I really need is something just strong enough to prevent the
more opportunistic types when I go into stores or restaurants or if I
have to leave it out of sight for a brief period.

How about panniers? Anybody make any efforts to secure those? I
usually keep my valuables in a seperate pouch/pack that I take with me
on and off the bike.

Julian

Hi, I'm new to the list.  I've been doing five day to a week tours
(500km to 800km) in southern Brazil for the past year, averaging one
a month.  I don't think that my bike or my gear can be called
ultralight, but it's far lighter and cheaper than anything I've seen
on the road here or abroad.

Bike:
Caloi (brazilian) Aspen 19" MTB frame, steel.
Singlespeed, 44/18 gives 63.5 gear inches, saves a lot of weight, can
be fixed anywhere and I really don't have to get off and push very
often.
26" 1.5" slick tires on cheapo brazilian aereo rims.
Rodan (brazilian) sealed hubs.
Rodan bottom bracket.
Plastic fenders.
Cateye headlight & rear blinker.
Cheapo no name steel rack.
Cheapo saddle with springs.
Total weight @ 22lbs.

Load:
1.5 liter water bottle.
Jungle hammock with tarp.
1 long nylon pants
1 heavyweight panty hose.
1 heavyweight body stocking.
1 nylon t-shirt
1 lycra long sleeve turtleneck
1 nylon underwear
1pr nylon socks
1 lightweight wool sweater
cheap rain jacket
plus what I'm wearing
cycling shorts
nylon t-shirt
nylon underwear
socks
indoor soccer shoes
saltines & sweets
baggie with basic first aid kit
baggie with wrench, allen key, spare tube, patch kit, small swiss
army knife
pump
baggie with map
tiny bottle of sun screen
tiny bottle of bug repellent
small synthetic polishing cloth to use as towel
baggie with toothbrush, tooth paste and tiny bottles of hydrogen
peroxide, liquid soap and plastic razor

Total weight 9 lbs.

Pack:
Ripoff of Carradice Camper Long Flap, made by my neighborhood
cobbler, which rests on the rack.  It's made from a canvas truck
cover and has heavy duty harness straps to cope with very rough
handling, rain, UV etc.
Total weight 2 lbs.

So that's what, 33lbs for the fully loaded bike?  If it gets chilly
at night, I just put on all the clothes.  I can usually wash the
clothes at night and there's plenty of places on the road where I can
buy food, so cooking's not a problem.

Regards,
Luis

This is my bike, that I use for weekend touring:

http://www.mypix.se/visaFullImage.asp?fill=0&id=JMORDPRQCMROI&storlek=800

Modifications/upgrades as seen on the picture;
-Big Apple tyres
-Telescopic Piccolo seatpost
-Selle Italia Leather saddle
-SKS Mudmax mudguards
-Larger chainwheel (52T)
-SPD pedals
-Minoura PET bottle cage
-Cane Creek bar ends
-Carradice SQR tour bag
-Altura Skye handle bar bag (Klick-fix)
-LED lights front and rear on the bags
-Cable lock on handle post
-Bullit valve caps..

I donīt know if it fit the generic profile of the
riders on this group, but it is a lightweight and very
compact tourer. I generally do distances of 60-70
miles in a day, camping on a site or in the "wild" at
the end of a day. I use an ultralight tent or a tarp
for shelter, esbit stove with titanium mug, down top
bag, thermarest prolite 3 short, minimum extra
clothing etc.



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> Message: 1
>  Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2005 01:48:58 -0000
>  From: "whitcomb_kincaid" <kincaids5@...>
> Subject: Introduction to the group
>
>
>
> Hello fellow ultralight bikers! My name is Whit Kincaid...........
> I ride a Rans V2 long wheel base recumbent. Like any Rans bike that
> uses their standard seat, it is a simple matter to place a variety of
> differant lightweight backpacks on the bike and go...............
> Questions:
> Are there any other ultralight weight recumbent riders out there?
> Regarding the use of layered light weight clotheing while cycling,
> what diferences do any of you notice to its use while Hiking?
> How do the Delorme series of maps compare to the bike america series?
> I'm looking forward to shareing ideas and opionions with this group!
>
> Razor
------------------
Razor,

Thanks for your  introduction.  I do not ride a recumbent, although that
will be the next kind of bike I buy if I ever do buy another.  So I don't
have answers to your questions.

But your description does raise a number of related questions.  I am
thinking of peddling from Hood River, Oregon to and down the Oregon Coast to
Florence, Oregon to join a lightweight backpack.  I'd like to mount my
backpack on my (standard diamond-frame) bike rack.  Has anyone done that,
and are there cautionary stories from which to learn?

I thought of using a piece of chloroplast to brace the pack, which is larger
than the rack.  And although I have and plan to use a pack cover if
necessary, I wonder about spray on the underside of the pack if the weather
turns foul.  An alternative is to take panniers and simply put the pack in
among the  other things, and I believe there is plenty of room to do so, but
the weight, aerodynamics, and bulk of the panniers makes me think this is
less desirable.  Any advice appreciated.

Ken

Hello fellow ultralight bikers! My name is Whit Kincaid and I live in
Orlando Florida. Having been a member of the ultralight hiking group
for many years (mostly lurking), and also being an enthusiastic
recumbent rider since 2000, I was very excited to here about this
group. My pack weight for hiking is between 11-13 lbs. depending on
activity and conditions. Thanks go to your moderator for helping a
computer neanderthal like myself finally get in contact.
I ride a Rans V2 long wheel base recumbent. Like any Rans bike that
uses their standard seat, it is a simple matter to place a variety of
differant lightweight backpacks on the bike and go. Simply place the
shoulder straps of the pack over the top corners of the seat's back
rest. A very practical advantage that these styles of bikes have. I've
done this for 5000 miles with the Rans Tailwind model bike. Having
purchased a V2 last June, its larger 26" rear wheel would not allow
this arrangement. The standard Rans rear rack easily solved this
problem as the backpacks' bottom now sits on the rack and doesn't drag
the wheel. Mt wife's Granite Gear Vapor Trail (size small)pack turned
out to be a natural fit. She has very fond memories of carrying this
pack across the southern Cascades on the Oregon PCT last July. So she
wasn't exactly enthusiastic about letting me use it regularly for my
bicycling activities!
This set up was my sole means of carrying gear when I accomplished my
first long distance tour, from Orlando to Tallahassee last January. It
worked very well. I can get along with very little in the way of gear
so perhaps this wouldn't be enough pack volumne for some. Some of my
gear that comes to mind that I used was a  Nunatek arc ghost down
quilt, evernew 1.3 liter Ti
pot, brass light stove (stripped), possom down vest, Oware one man cat
tarp. Total weight must have been a least 20 lbs after I put the bike
repair gear, and two days food. Rans has some fine looking pannier
racks that mount
very aero under the riders hips. I will eventually get these to
accomidate longer more ambishious trips I have in mind for the future.
In the future I will leave the tarp at home and use a Henesey Hamock.
For those who are interested, my route was Hwy 50 west from Orlando
then north on the Withlacoochee bike trail ending in Dunelleon. Took
the small roads northeast out of Dunelleon to hwy 98 to Chiefland.
From Cheifland took the sun coast Bike trail to Cross City, and from
ther to Steinhatchee. Went west to St. Marks via Perry and Hwy 98.
Then reached Tallahassee on the St. Marks bike trail. In my opionion
this was a
very safe and enjoyable route. 310 miles total with more than 100 on
asphalte bike trail. I enjoyed this trip even more than I had imagined
that I would.
Questions:
Are there any other ultralight weight recumbent riders out there?
Regarding the use of layered light weight clotheing while cycling,
what diferences do any of you notice to its use while Hiking?
How do the Delorme series of maps compare to the bike america series?
I'm looking forward to shareing ideas and opionions with this group!

Razor

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Levenberg

To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, March 03, 2005 11:30 AM

Subject: [ultralightbiking] Same old, same old

Weather is starting to get into the 60's, my poison oak is clearing up
finally and Im raring to get biking. My lactic threshhold has tanked and
I have to build that back up again but my June tour is looming and I
want to be ready for it. I also signed up for a pretty hilly century
(8800 ft over 107 miles) that will be the first Sunday in May.

I just recently got my Cycling Adventures catalog and I did some quick
calculations. Its the same old crap I always complain about so if youre
not interested stop reading now.

The "Superlight" handlebar bag weighing in at a hefty 1 lbs, 11 oz. And
the sidebar says never put more than 5-8 pounds in a handlebar bag. Now
assuming the total weight to not exceed 5-8 lbs (this can be argued of
course) that means that the bag is from 34% - 21% of the total weight.
My GoLite Gust pack at 1 lbs, 4 oz. and rated for 30 lbs carrying is
more like 4% of the total weight. Of course the Superlight handlebar bag
has a 25 year warranty but there has to be some middleground.

r

Weather is starting to get into the 60's, my poison oak is clearing up
finally and Im raring to get biking. My lactic threshhold has tanked and
I have to build that back up again but my June tour is looming and I
want to be ready for it. I also signed up for a pretty hilly century
(8800 ft over 107 miles) that will be the first Sunday in May.

I just recently got my Cycling Adventures catalog and I did some quick
calculations. Its the same old crap I always complain about so if youre
not interested stop reading now.

The "Superlight" handlebar bag weighing in at a hefty 1 lbs, 11 oz. And
the sidebar says never put more than 5-8 pounds in a handlebar bag. Now
assuming the total weight to not exceed 5-8 lbs (this can be argued of
course) that means that the bag is from 34% - 21% of the total weight.
My GoLite Gust pack at 1 lbs, 4 oz. and rated for 30 lbs carrying is
more like 4% of the total weight. Of course the Superlight handlebar bag
has a 25 year warranty but there has to be some middleground.

r

Here's an interesting web site about a solo rider:

http://www.gordontaylor.co.uk/

He just rode across the US and is heading to New Zealand next.  While
in rainy San Diego, he needed some bike repairs and was directed to
my neighborhood bike shop.  Has an email address for correspondence,
and sounds willing to answer questions (he could probably use some
encouragement, too!).

--Jason, San Diego

Look very carefully at the Tarptent line of single walled tents.  I have
the Virga 1 with the extended beak and extended tub style floor.  The
tent is as large as my Kelty Stratus (1.5 person and 5+ lbs!!) and only
weighs 25 ounces by my scale!!!  If you pack the poles separate from the
tent, the 17" by 4" by 3" stuff sack can be molded anywhere.  I use a 3
mil piece of plastic as a foot print (really a 45 gallon trash bag slit
down the sides). My tent has great workmanship and they added the
extended tub floor option to my tent even after I used it!!   The tent
is not free standing, but I can put it up quicker than my Kelty.
See:   www.tarptent.com

Also look at the Guide Gear 50 deg. F. Sleeping Bag from Sportsman's
Guide.  It also weighs ~25 ounces and packs down to about the size of a
pound can of coffee.  With shipping it was under 40 bucks.  For colder
weather, I wear a pair of fleece 100 weight long underwear for pj's with
a pair of socks.  I've slept down into the mid to low  40's with this
combo.  See:     www.sportsmanguide.com

I typically carry the fleece for cold riding.  A long jersey, tights,
fleece top and bottom, and my rain coat and pants are good down into the
low 30's.  To get the volume out of the all my clothes, I use a hand
operated space bags.

Bob Cromer
02/23/05...


ghill2guys wrote:

>
>
> I weighed my tent and sleeping bag yesterday, thinking they couldn't
> possibly weigh that much, and that spending money on new, lighter-
> weight gear might not be necessary.  Sooo wrong.  My sleeping bag is
> 4.5 lbs, and my tent a whopping 6 lbs!  That's 11 pounds I've been
> carting around all those years just between those two items.  Time to
> do some shopping...
>
> --- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, "Jason & Rob" <jasrob@c...>
> wrote:
> > I've gone from solo fully loaded, to group rides where they carry
> all my gear (AIDS Lifecycle from SF to LA, twice), and am tending
> back toward solo touring.  But I don't want to pile back on all the
> weight.  My main gear is all 20 years old.  The panniers are fine
> (Cannondale), but my sleeping bag is a 3-season from REI that is way
> too heavy.  My sleeping pad is great but too bulky.  And my tent is a
> heavy White Stag.  Any recommendations on brands, or stores, where I
> could find modern, lighter replacements?  REI has quality equipment,
> but oftentimes their prices are over the top, even on sale.  And I'm
> leery of web sites; I like to see what I'm buying.
> >
> > --Jason in San Diego
> >   ----- Original Message -----
> >   From: jfgorham@a...
> >   To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> >   Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:05 AM
> >   Subject: [ultralightbiking] Light thoughts
> >
> >
> >
> >   The list has been pretty quiet.  Have we said all there is to
> say?
> >
> >   I really enjoyed Kent Peterson's post about his overnighter last
> week.  That is the kind of trip I'm trying myself to do more this
> year.  Of course, Kent is using them to build up to his big event
> this summer.  Speaking of Kent, look in the most recent issue of Dirt
> Rag magazine for more of his prose.  Kudos!
> >
> >   So what is the goal of going ultralight as opposed to loaded?
> I'm not sure that to me it isn't more about simplicity than the
> actual weight itself. All of my tours of more than three days have so
> far been "fully loaded," so now I'm working to reduce that load, but
> have some contingency for problems that may arise (mainly weather and
> mechanical issues) AND stay within my means. It also means taking
> what I want to take, although it might not be a practical (Ok, it was
> a banjo).  Over on the iBoB list, Kent pointed to Jeff Potter of
> OutYourBackdoor, who writes about this  on his website at:
> http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb/article.php?id=328
> >
> >   Do we need a contingency for every issue that might arise, or can
> we reduce and do without a significant amount of "what if"
> equipment?  Can ingenuity be an adaquate substitute for the correct
> tool?    In the event of a mishap, can we find what we need on the
> road/trail without being a freeloader? While reducing may increase
> the risk of discomfort in a given situation, can it do so without too
> severly impacting actual safety. (ie. cold and wet vs hypothermic)
> >
> >   Matt Chester discusses his ideas of simplicity on his blog:
> http://www.mattchester.com/blog/  he even has some photos
> illustrating his inspiration for the types of bikes he builds at the
> bottom of the Feb. 10th entry.  I appreciate his aesthetic. That is
> simplicity, maybe too much for me.
> >
> >   Here are some other folks with whom I feel some kinship, although
> they aren't camping, they aren't bringing a ton of stuff either:
> http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~akuta/doai.html
> <http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/%7Eakuta/doai.html>  These folk do alot of
> the kinds of rides I most enjoy.
> >
> >   So what are your thought on all this stuff?
> >
> >   Cheers,
> >   John Gorham
> >   Union Bridge, MD
> >   http://jfgorham.home.att.net/fixing_frederick.htm
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> >               ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> >   Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> >     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ultralightbiking/
> >
> >     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> >     ultralightbiking-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ultralightbiking/
>
>     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>       ultralightbiking-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>      
<mailto:ultralightbiking-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
>
>     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
>       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
>
>

I weighed my tent and sleeping bag yesterday, thinking they couldn't
possibly weigh that much, and that spending money on new, lighter-
weight gear might not be necessary.  Sooo wrong.  My sleeping bag is
4.5 lbs, and my tent a whopping 6 lbs!  That's 11 pounds I've been
carting around all those years just between those two items.  Time to
do some shopping...

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, "Jason & Rob" <jasrob@c...>
wrote:
> I've gone from solo fully loaded, to group rides where they carry
all my gear (AIDS Lifecycle from SF to LA, twice), and am tending
back toward solo touring.  But I don't want to pile back on all the
weight.  My main gear is all 20 years old.  The panniers are fine
(Cannondale), but my sleeping bag is a 3-season from REI that is way
too heavy.  My sleeping pad is great but too bulky.  And my tent is a
heavy White Stag.  Any recommendations on brands, or stores, where I
could find modern, lighter replacements?  REI has quality equipment,
but oftentimes their prices are over the top, even on sale.  And I'm
leery of web sites; I like to see what I'm buying.
>
> --Jason in San Diego
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   From: jfgorham@a...
>   To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
>   Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:05 AM
>   Subject: [ultralightbiking] Light thoughts
>
>
>
>   The list has been pretty quiet.  Have we said all there is to
say?
>
>   I really enjoyed Kent Peterson's post about his overnighter last
week.  That is the kind of trip I'm trying myself to do more this
year.  Of course, Kent is using them to build up to his big event
this summer.  Speaking of Kent, look in the most recent issue of Dirt
Rag magazine for more of his prose.  Kudos!
>
>   So what is the goal of going ultralight as opposed to loaded?
I'm not sure that to me it isn't more about simplicity than the
actual weight itself. All of my tours of more than three days have so
far been "fully loaded," so now I'm working to reduce that load, but
have some contingency for problems that may arise (mainly weather and
mechanical issues) AND stay within my means. It also means taking
what I want to take, although it might not be a practical (Ok, it was
a banjo).  Over on the iBoB list, Kent pointed to Jeff Potter of
OutYourBackdoor, who writes about this  on his website at:
http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb/article.php?id=328
>
>   Do we need a contingency for every issue that might arise, or can
we reduce and do without a significant amount of "what if"
equipment?  Can ingenuity be an adaquate substitute for the correct
tool?    In the event of a mishap, can we find what we need on the
road/trail without being a freeloader? While reducing may increase
the risk of discomfort in a given situation, can it do so without too
severly impacting actual safety. (ie. cold and wet vs hypothermic)
>
>   Matt Chester discusses his ideas of simplicity on his blog:
http://www.mattchester.com/blog/  he even has some photos
illustrating his inspiration for the types of bikes he builds at the
bottom of the Feb. 10th entry.  I appreciate his aesthetic. That is
simplicity, maybe too much for me.
>
>   Here are some other folks with whom I feel some kinship, although
they aren't camping, they aren't bringing a ton of stuff either:
http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~akuta/doai.html  These folk do alot of
the kinds of rides I most enjoy.
>
>   So what are your thought on all this stuff?
>
>   Cheers,
>   John Gorham
>   Union Bridge, MD
>   http://jfgorham.home.att.net/fixing_frederick.htm
>
>
>
>
>         Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>               ADVERTISEMENT
>
>
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
----------
>   Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>     a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ultralightbiking/
>
>     b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     ultralightbiking-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>     c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
Service.

Hi -

  I want to "weight" in on this discussion.  I ride a Tour Easy Recumbent
bike.  It has a Zzipper fairing (windshield) and a small handlebar
pack.  The bike weights in at 35 pounds dry.  An aluminum rack and small
Ortlib panniers weight an additional 8 lbs.  I have tried using a BOB
trailer (14 lbs.), then the rack and panniers, and for the last two
years, I have used a homemade tailbox (two different designs) to carry
my gear.  My first Tailbox was huge and weighted 12 lbs.  My next design
was 9 lbs with a homemade aluminum rack.  Now you are probably wondering
why am I on this ultalight list??? Well, weight really only counts when
going up hills. Since you can not stand on the pedals with a recumbent,
they tend to climb slower, in addition to weighing more.

I an a retired mechanical engineer.  Added weight does increase rolling
resistance a little (1-2 psi added air pressure overcomes this) going
downhill or on the level.  Its all in the hills.  Air resistance is far
more important on the level or downhill.  The power needed to propel the
bike is a function of frontal area times the drag coefficient times the
velocity cubed!!!!  A recumbent bike has a smaller frontal area than a
diamond frame bike even with the rider tucked down onto an aerobar.
When you add a windshield, the drag coefficient lowers.  If you also add
a tailbox that is smooth and 1.5 times longer than its width and has a
rear pointed shape, the drag coefficient is lowered again.  The lowest
drag coefficients are the bikes used in the Human Powered Vehicle
competitions. I find that with 15 mph headwinds, I can do 15 mph with
the tailbox and only 7 mph without.

My first tailbox was made from coroplast (plastic cardboard).  Coroplast
really only bends well in the direction of the ribs.  This limited the
shape of my tailbox considerably.  I was carrying close to 50 lbs of
gear with this design.  For my second tailbox, I cut coroplast strips
and wove a basket shape on the aero side of the shape.  I covered this
basket with heat shrinkable plastic used to cover boats.  I shrunk this
down onto the basket shape, making a somewhat smooth surface.  I changed
out most of my gear and I am now carrying about 30 pounds total with water.

This year, I plan on making yet another tailbox (they cost less than $40
each...).  This one will be all basket woven and similiarily heat shrink
covered.  I purchased a roll of vinyl flashing, that I plan to cut into
about one inch strips.  I made up a two square foot sample, leaving half
inch by half inch gaps in the weave.  With the heat shrink covering, the
skin will weigh in at ~3.5 ounces per square foot.  My goal is SIX
POUNDS for both the tailbox and a simple homemade aluminum rack (bolted
together).  The volume of the tailbox will be greater than the BOB's
bag!!!!!  If I make this tailbox longer, not only will I be able to pack
more horizontally, but the drag coefficient will also be lower.

For diamond frame bikes, I propose the following:   1) Make up a
trapezoidal pointed shape that mounts to the back of the seat and also
mounts onto the seat stays.  The structure could be made from coroplast
or be woven and covered.  Think of a bird's body shape with the wings
bend down attaching to the seat stays.  Small items could be packed down
inside the "wings" and larger items would be housed inside the "body".
Volume would be greater than small panniers.  My guess is that the
structure would weigh in at roughly two to three pounds.  Since the
outside would be smooth and aerodynamic, the drag coefficient would be
reduced.  2) I would use some 1 inch by 0.125 inch aluminum strips that
would be attached to the shape acting for the function of the rack. My
guess is that the project would take ten to fifteen hours of work and
would cost roughly thirty bucks!!!!!

Food for thought,

Bob Comer
02/19/05...


Julian Simpson wrote:

> To be honest I don't know what today's racks and panniers weigh but
> here are some points to consider.
> The racks are made from fairly heavy straight guage steel. Ti would be
> great for this application but I bet you could even come up with some
> cheaper nice light aluminum options.. the only problem with aluminum
> is that it requires the tubes to be larger diameter to hold the
> weight, Some interesting design work would need to be done to make
> this work... (I'm thinking something along the lines of the squared
> off chain stays you see on alot of todays lighter hard tail aluminum
> mountain bikes)
> The material in the panniers could definitely be lighter. Falling and
> causing abraision would still be a major concern perhaps some
> strategic placement of a stronger yet still lightweight material in
> the more vulnerable areas is in order.
> One of the other major sources of weight in the system is the frame
> sheet that as far as I can tell is primarily there to stop the
> panniers from getting sucked into the spokes. For this purpose it's
> overkill.... A kevlar sheet or some kind of criss crossing stays made
> from Ti, Carbon, Plastic, or Aluminum would do just as well.
> Zippers, buckles, and the attachment system could probably also be
> made from lighter materials.
>
> Unfortunately I don't think there's much of a market for this right
> now. So any major develepment will have to be homemade or cottage
> industry type stuff. Besides us I think most touring cyclist are more
> interested in "Reliable with a capital 'R' " and with the weigh most
> of them are carrying who can blame them. I think they're stuck in the
> same place we were with backpacking 10 years ago.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
>
>     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
>       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ultralightbiking/
>
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>       ultralightbiking-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>      
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--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Richard Levenberg
<richardl@u...> wrote:
> When you decide to put on
> racks, then obviously you are thinking panniers since they are are
like
> peanut butter and jelly.. they just go together.

Why does this have to be the case? I also have no great fondness for
panniers but pretty much every time I work through this problem a rack
does wind up being worth its weight.

You can get lightweight racks. Not all racks are steel, over-built
things. There are lightweight aluminium racks out on the market. There
are small racks that attach to the seatpost. Nitto makes a small,
fairly light steel rack that attaches to the rear stays and the
seatpost and doesn't require stays.

If you want a super light rear bag, get a sylnylon stuff sack, stuff
your gear in it and strap it to a rear rack. It's light, it's simple,
it's stable.

The main thing I don't like about panniers is the aerodynamic drag.
They stick out and you can feel the drag when you are headed into the
wind. And I just don't like the look. I have the same aesthetic
problem with a transverse saddlebag like a Caradice. And Caradices are
heavy as well. It is pretty easy to come up with lightweight rack plus
a stuff bag that is lighter than a Caradice bag.

Every trip is about trade-offs. You can come up with various options
and see what works best for you. But running without panniers doesn't
necessarily mean running without a rack and using a rack doesn't mean
you have to use panniers.

Another option would be a coroplast tailbox like this:

http://www.mile43.com/peterson/Kents_Tailbox.html

You can certainly use panniers if you like and I've used them on a few
tours but in general I find I prefer other solutions.

Kent Peterson
Issaquah WA USA

To be honest I don't know what today's racks and panniers weigh but
here are some points to consider.
The racks are made from fairly heavy straight guage steel. Ti would be
great for this application but I bet you could even come up with some
cheaper nice light aluminum options.. the only problem with aluminum
is that it requires the tubes to be larger diameter to hold the
weight, Some interesting design work would need to be done to make
this work... (I'm thinking something along the lines of the squared
off chain stays you see on alot of todays lighter hard tail aluminum
mountain bikes)
The material in the panniers could definitely be lighter. Falling and
causing abraision would still be a major concern perhaps some
strategic placement of a stronger yet still lightweight material in
the more vulnerable areas is in order.
One of the other major sources of weight in the system is the frame
sheet that as far as I can tell is primarily there to stop the
panniers from getting sucked into the spokes. For this purpose it's
overkill.... A kevlar sheet or some kind of criss crossing stays made
from Ti, Carbon, Plastic, or Aluminum would do just as well.
Zippers, buckles, and the attachment system could probably also be
made from lighter materials.

Unfortunately I don't think there's much of a market for this right
now. So any major develepment will have to be homemade or cottage
industry type stuff. Besides us I think most touring cyclist are more
interested in "Reliable with a capital 'R' " and with the weigh most
of them are carrying who can blame them. I think they're stuck in the
same place we were with backpacking 10 years ago.

I definitely think your onto something here. We've discussed in fair
detail how to get away with a racing bike type setup and the options
that are available once you decide you want to go that route... And
the fact is... it's not pretty. Back packs are uncomfortable and
carradice's only work if you willing to forgo some of the bulkier
items in your kit like sleeping bags for instance and we didn't even
get into how they feel on the bike.
Rack and panniers are tried and true... they carry the weight in a
stable and predictable manner. What they aren't is light. So I think
some effort needs to be concentrated on making that combination as
light as possible. (I think I'll write a seperate post for that.)
There are some fairly light touring bikes on the market now too. They
have more aggressive geometry then the boats we used to call tourers.
I have a 16 pound carbon fiber racing bike. I have no interest in
touring with that. What I'm interested in is taking proven techniques
and equipment and making it lighter and faster.
If my bike and gear combine for a weight of 40lbs then I'm still at
least 50% lighter than most touring cyclists out there.

Julian

I was thinking today about why I am having such a difficult time
accepting  the rack and pannier system of touring. I was re-reading
something I was writing a while back for the group where I distinguished
the difference between a touring bike and any other bike as either
having eyelets on the frame for racks or not. When you decide to put on
racks, then obviously you are thinking panniers since they are are like
peanut butter and jelly.. they just go together. And thats where it
breaks down for me.

The whole tenet of ultralight backpacking (I just finished reading Ray
Jardine's Beyond Backpacking) is to lighten your load so much that you
are wearing tennis shoes and people mistake you for a day packer. I want
to wear racing shoes and have people mistake me for a guy out on his
performance bike going for a ride.

So ultimately, if youve got your pack weight (what goes into your pack)
down to an ultralight level (up for debate what that is), then of course
you don't go out and get a non-ultralight pack to put it all in and
heavy hiking boots to "support" it.

Thats what bugs me about the rack and pannier solutions for ultralight
touring. For one, the bikes dont support the racks. For another the
racks are designed to hold a lot of weight and therefore are heavy.
Finally the panniers are designed to be tough.  Im not sure I understand
why panniers have to be so tough and I havent been able to figure it
out. Are they designed to withstand falls and crashes? Is it a
requirement that they hold their own shape when they are not filled? So
for fabric there is everything from 1.9 oz silicone impregnated nylon
ripstop at 16 lbs tear strength to 10 oz. cotton duck at MORE tear
strength (dont know the details).

What is the middle ground that meets the requirements? Ive said before
that I expect things to be damaged (including myself) if I crash and
fall, but.... assuming the weight affects the stability of the
non-touring bike significantly, doesnt the ideal of lightweight go far
to keep the bike upright and stable?

Anyway just some thoughts about how to get this done. Due to some
bizarre issues, I have been banned from the sewing machine to try out my
ideas. Hopefully this ban will be over by March and I can try out some
of my ideas.

r

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Neill Currie
<neill1234@y...> wrote:
>
> Well, those Ti hex wrenches and other tools noted
> recently are pretty pricey, you can log on using
> "titanium" and "tools" to see the prices. A 4mm allen
> is about $21 for example.

Hi -

That's truly scary. I've always thought that the best way to keep
the weight down is to carefully consider what I'm going to need and
then creatively modify it to pare off as much weight as possible. My
hex wrench set fits nicely inside a small TipTop patch box.

I've had a couple of multi-tools which have been given to me. They
seem to have tools I don't need and don't have tools I do need.

The Ti thing reminds me of a exchange a friend of mine had on the
trail a while back.

He was out on a day hike and had stopped to warm up some water for
tea. He had a little pot on the Svea and was just about to put a tea
bag in when another hiker came along.

They chatted for a brief minute and then the newcomer remarked about
the cool looking gray pot my friend was using. "Is that one of the
new titanium pots?" he asked.

"Nope," replied Rick. "Dinty Moore."

Cheers,

Tom

I use a BOB Coz trailer with a Tour Easy, a BikeE CT and a hardtail
mountain bike, not for touring but for shopping and utility use. I have
had the same problem with oscillations on the Tour Easy at around 35
mph. This can also happen on conventional upright bikes with rear
suspensions. Because of this tendency, one wheel trailers should be used
with caution on any rear suspended bike or any bike with a long flexible
frame like Tour Easys. But on hardtail mountain or road bikes or on
rigid recumbents like my BikeE CT, BOB trailers are wonderful, tracking
perfectly, hardly noticing it's there. Not even remotely ultralight, but
if you need a trailer and your bike is rigid enough, they are excellent.

Lorenzo L. Love
http://home.thegrid.net/~lllove

"Americans are broad-minded people.  They'll accept the fact that a
person can be an alcoholic, a dope fiend, a wife beater, and even a
newspaperman, but if a man doesn't drive there's something wrong with him."
                          Art Buchwald


Robert Cromer wrote:
> Hi -
> I used a BOB trailer for one season.  It weights in at 14 lbs with its
> bag.  It tracks well and you can't overload it.  You do have to watch
> coming downhill at speeds above 30 mph.  I have a Tour Easy recumbent
> bike.  I hit a medium sized bump downhill at 35 mph.  The BOB started to
> osculate back and forth at an ever increasing rate, achieving a one foot
> peak to peak amplitude!!!!.  Sacred was not the word.  I slowly started
> to apply back brake, and when I got the speed down below 25 mph, the
> oscillations slowly subsided.  My bike does not have as sturdy of a rear
> triangle that a MTN bike does, so the problem will not be as severe.
>
> Bob Cromer
> 02/14/05...
>
>
>
> At 08:38 PM 02/13/2005 +0000, you wrote:
>
>
>> Hi All
>> Does anyone have knowledge of or experience with BOB trailers? I will
>> be using a MTN bike for an extended road trip soon and am curious
>> about them. Are the any good, difficult to control, sturdy, etc etc.
>>
>> Sincerely
>> Saltheart

Well, those Ti hex wrenches and other tools noted
recently are pretty pricey, you can log on using
"titanium" and "tools" to see the prices. A 4mm allen
is about $21 for example.

=====
Neill Currie
6 Emerald Drive
Hillsborough
Nh 03244

tel: 603-464-0250
------------
I usually have classic bicycle components for sale at good prices. Please email
me for a current list. A reasonably current list may be seen here:
<http://www.geocities.com/neill1234/ForSale.html>
------------
The Mountain Goat website is at:
<http://www.geocities.com/neill1234/index.html?1011568933040>
------------



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Well the Chain Pup chain tool, and the associated
4/5/6mm combined allen wrenches weighed very little.
Chain tool body was made from aluminum and very small,
wrenches from steel.
I still have these tools in my "light" tool set. I
supplement them with patches, emery paper and glue, 2
cutoff tirelevers, 8/9/10mm openended wrenches, a
small screwdriver, and they all fit easily into an
empty Altoids Mints tin!!

=====
Neill Currie
6 Emerald Drive
Hillsborough
Nh 03244

tel: 603-464-0250
------------
I usually have classic bicycle components for sale at good prices. Please email
me for a current list. A reasonably current list may be seen here:
<http://www.geocities.com/neill1234/ForSale.html>
------------
The Mountain Goat website is at:
<http://www.geocities.com/neill1234/index.html?1011568933040>
------------

__________________________________________________
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Hi All
Does anyone have knowledge of or experience with BOB trailers? I will
be using a MTN bike for an extended road trip soon and am curious
about them. Are the any good, difficult to control, sturdy, etc etc.

Sincerely
Saltheart







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Hi All
Does anyone have knowledge of or experience with BOB trailers? I will
be using a MTN bike for an extended road trip soon and am curious
about them. Are the any good, difficult to control, sturdy, etc etc.

Sincerely
Saltheart

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Ken and/or Linda Maddox
<maddox@p...> wrote:<snip>
> Questions:
>
> 1. What are the essential tools to carry?
>
> 2. Does anyone have lighter weight options for any of them?

Hi -

I posted pictures of my toolkit.

Generally, that is all I carry. If I'm expecting to go through
puncture vine territory I will add another tube.

I don't carry extra cables - periodic and preventative maintenence
will obviate the need to carry those.

Spokes I carry in a cork stuffed into the bottom of my seat post.

I have found that I can get a cassette off with my small screwdriver
and a rock if I don't overtighten the lock ring in the first place.
That tool at Harris Cyclerly looks inviting, though, since I didn't
have the good sense to buy a cassette cracker when they were available.

Cheers,

Tom

> I would think seriously about bringing the following.
> Spoke wrench.
> chain tool.
> cassette tool.
> Unfortunately I know no lightweight alternatives to any of those and
> in the case of the cassette you'd have to find a service station to
> lend you a socket driver as it's not much good on it's own.
>
> And then you have parts....
> Tubes. definitely (but how many?)
> Tire(s)?
> Spokes?
> bits and bolts that may need replacing. You could go nuts with this
> (pun unintentional).

I don't have much to add, but I wanted to say thanks for discussing
this.  It's currently what's on my mind right now and I'm wondering if
I should bother bringing the cassette tool, tires, and assorted bits
and bolts.

I already have a Crank Brothers multitool so I plan on taking that, my
zefal pump, a spoke wrench and spokes, and probably two extra tubes as
well.

I'm not really sure how to use a cassette tool, but I think I saw
people on the bikeforums refer to this as being a good option.
http://harriscyclery.net/site/itemdetails.cfm?ID=1214
I don't see a weight listed anywhere, but it doesn't look too heavy.
-Itty

> 1. What are the essential tools to carry?
>
> 2. Does anyone have lighter weight options for any of them?

I found a site that makes titanium tools. None are bike specific but
fortunately some tools for bikes are universal...

I wonder what these titanium allen keys weigh?
http://www.imprex.net/guest/index_03.html

As well as the appropriate allen keys tire irons would be on my
definite list. Fortunately there are lightweight plastic ones widely
available.

A patch kit and some mechanism for inflation (we should have an entire
thread on that topic)

I would think seriously about bringing the following.
Spoke wrench.
chain tool.
cassette tool.
Unfortunately I know no lightweight alternatives to any of those and
in the case of the cassette you'd have to find a service station to
lend you a socket driver as it's not much good on it's own.

And then you have parts....
Tubes. definitely (but how many?)
Tire(s)?
Spokes?
bits and bolts that may need replacing. You could go nuts with this
(pun unintentional).

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:48:32, Julian Simpson <julian.simpson@...>
wrote:

.................
>> Do we need a contingency for every issue that might arise, or can we reduce
>> and do without a significant amount of "what if" equipment?
>
> Good question. I see tools as falling directly in this category and
> the biggest dilemma when it comes to ultralight cycling. The fact is
> they're steel... they're heavy and if things go right you shouldn't
> need them. The other fact is that things rarely go right.
> I think if there was a market for ultralight tools we would see more
> of them... but there just isn't. Imagine an aluminum chain tool or a
> titanium cassette tool... if ultralight touring took off would people
> be willing pay a premium for light tools that in all likely hood would
> be less durable than the traditional ones?
----------------------------
Questions:

1. What are the essential tools to carry?

2. Does anyone have lighter weight options for any of them?

> I have my pack weight down to
about 8 pounds. I hate to put on a rack and panniers that weigh more
than that.

>Ive thought about just carrying my pack on my back.. but I love "riding"


I think that in most cases the rack and panniers is still the ideal
option. Although I wish there were some lighter weight choices
available commercially for racks and panniers.... Unfortunately
they're made to support the weight of over loaded tourists.
When you think about it as a percentage of you bike weight rather than
a percentage of your pack weight then it becomes less outstanding.
If we're getting technical it's time we started thinking about it in
terms of bike weight + pack weight + possibly even rider weight
because afterall it's all three of those that you have to lug up that
hill at the end of the day.

We haven't had alot of discussion about the bikes themselves and I'm
sure theres plenty of threads to come on that issue alone.... Also
because most of came from the backpackinglight group there a question
of where to draw the line in the sand as what is necessary
discussion... Some of our members don't have that same background and
so discussions about tarptents and alchohol stoves would be directly
releted to cycle touring and cycle touring only.
I'm still excited about this group and as the ice starts to thaw and
my thoughts turn toward this summer's trips I think of more and more
ideas I want to throw at the group.

jfgorham@... wrote:

>The list has been pretty quiet.  Have we said all there is to say?
>
I sure hope not. My guess is that winter is not a great time to talk
about touring.

>So what is the goal of going ultralight as opposed to loaded?  I'm not sure
that to me it isn't more about simplicity than the actual weight itself. All of
my tours of more than three days have so far been "fully loaded," so now I'm
working to reduce that load, but have some contingency for problems that may
arise (mainly weather and mechanical issues) AND stay within my means. It also
means taking what I want to take, although it might not be a practical (Ok, it
was a banjo).  Over on the iBoB list, Kent pointed to Jeff Potter of
OutYourBackdoor, who writes about this  on his website at:
http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb/article.php?id=328
>
Originally, when we started this list, the idea is my mind was to go out
touring on my racing bike. The "goal" was to not have to buy a touring
bike capable of handling 60lb loads. All the touring I have done has
either been CC touring or very well planned mailing of boxes full of
stuff. The former is too expensive, the latter is susceptible to all
sorts of problems like weather and route commitment. I think all the
principles of ultralight backpacking apply to ultralight touring.  One
of the things Im concerned with is manufacturers havent clued in yet.
Once your gear is all taken into account, in much the same way as 20% of
Ryan Jordan's carried weight is his shoes, a significant portion of the
weight touring is the rack and panniers. I have my pack weight down to
about 8 pounds. I hate to put on a rack and panniers that weigh more
than that.

>Here are some other folks with whom I feel some kinship, although they aren't
camping, they aren't bringing a ton of stuff either: 
http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~akuta/doai.html  These folk do alot of the kinds of
rides I most enjoy.
>
>
>
Ive thought about just carrying my pack on my back.. but I love "riding"
not carrying stuff so Im not sure how that would be. I think I may have
to load up my pack and go riding and just see how that is.

r

On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:05:02 +0000, jfgorham@... <jfgorham@...> wrote:
>
>
> The list has been pretty quiet.  Have we said all there is to say?
>

I hope not. Nobody has really discussed the bikes themselves yet (?!?!)



>
> So what is the goal of going ultralight as opposed to loaded?
Interesting choice of wording. I see any touring where you carry your
own shelter as loaded... As opposed to credit card touring where you
stay in (m)ho(s)tels. I wrote in one of the very early posts that
perhaps there should be a new word for what we do... "unloaded
touring". I have an interest in ultralight camping and by extension am
drawn to the idea of ultralight loaded touring. But I also believe
that the same principles could be used for so called credit card
touring.

I do see it as a simplicity thing. I've never understood why cycle
tourists have prided themselves on how much weight they can carry.
Just as in ultralight hiking the basic idea that when freed from the
burdon of overload you can concentrate more on enjoying the
environment.
This whole ultralight cycling thing is a pretty rare concept. As far
as I know we're the only ones discussing it in an organized manner. So
there isn't any credo or philosophy yet and no Jardinian holy people
either. There's lots to be thought about and lots to be discussed.


>
> Do we need a contingency for every issue that might arise, or can we reduce
and do without a significant amount of "what if" equipment?

Good question. I see tools as falling directly in this category and
the biggest dilemma when it comes to ultralight cycling. The fact is
they're steel... they're heavy and if things go right you shouldn't
need them. The other fact is that things rarely go right.
I think if there was a market for ultralight tools we would see more
of them... but there just isn't. Imagine an aluminum chain tool or a
titanium cassette tool... if ultralight touring took off would people
be willing pay a premium for light tools that in all likely hood would
be less durable than the traditional ones?

Lots of stuff left to think about.

----- Original Message -----

From: jfgorham@...

To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 11, 2005 8:05 AM

Subject: [ultralightbiking] Light thoughts

The list has been pretty quiet.  Have we said all there is to say? 

I really enjoyed Kent Peterson's post about his overnighter last week.  That is the kind of trip I'm trying myself to do more this year.  Of course, Kent is using them to build up to his big event this summer.  Speaking of Kent, look in the most recent issue of Dirt Rag magazine for more of his prose.  Kudos!

So what is the goal of going ultralight as opposed to loaded?  I'm not sure that to me it isn't more about simplicity than the actual weight itself. All of my tours of more than three days have so far been "fully loaded," so now I'm working to reduce that load, but have some contingency for problems that may arise (mainly weather and mechanical issues) AND stay within my means. It also means taking what I want to take, although it might not be a practical (Ok, it was a banjo).  Over on the iBoB list, Kent pointed to Jeff Potter of OutYourBackdoor, who writes about this  on his website at: http://www.glpbooks.com/oyb/article.php?id=328

Do we need a contingency for every issue that might arise, or can we reduce and do without a significant amount of "what if" equipment?  Can ingenuity be an adaquate substitute for the correct tool?    In the event of a mishap, can we find what we need on the road/trail without being a freeloader? While reducing may increase the risk of discomfort in a given situation, can it do so without too severly impacting actual safety. (ie. cold and wet vs hypothermic)

Matt Chester discusses his ideas of simplicity on his blog: http://www.mattchester.com/blog/  he even has some photos illustrating his inspiration for the types of bikes he builds at the bottom of the Feb. 10th entry.  I appreciate his aesthetic. That is simplicity, maybe too much for me.

Here are some other folks with whom I feel some kinship, although they aren't camping, they aren't bringing a ton of stuff either:  http://www5e.biglobe.ne.jp/~akuta/doai.html  These folk do alot of the kinds of rides I most enjoy.

So what are your thought on all this stuff?

Cheers,
John Gorham
Union Bridge, MD
http://jfgorham.home.att.net/fixing_frederick.htm