Steve,
I'm in 100% agreement with waht you say. I'm from the UK too so the
Carradice saddlebag style
of touring is what I grew up with. I can see certain advantages for the
"bikepacking" frame packs
and longditudinal seat wedges for off road riding, but the traditional
British saddlebag setup is hard
to beat for practicality.

I'm currently tweeking my setup. I've replaced a two small Nitto racks
with an Expedition Bagman.


http://wheelsofchance.org/2009/08/23/carradice-expedition-bagman-review/

Steve Pells wrote:

> Hello-
>
> > [mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> <mailto:ultralightbiking%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser
> >
> > On the other hand having more bags makes your stuff more secure and
> > in-line with the frame... less bulk. Also theoretically more
> > accessible depending on the bags you use.
>
> Yes, that was part of my point: stuffsacks make things a bit tricky to get
> in and out of. As for "more secure and inline with the frame", that's
> one of
> the reasons I like saddlebags: they put the weight right at the centre of
> gravity of the bike and rider combination, and have the most minimal
> effect.
> Handlebar bags can affect steering, but my newer (and waterproof) one is
> lighter than the old one and I only keep light things in it anyway, so
> it's
> not so bad.
>
> > Interestingly I don't even keep my wallet on me. I store things like
>
> Yes, I think my wallet is safer in the handlebar bag than in an (open
> topped) jersey pocket. The Handlebar bag is quick release and has a
> shoulder
> strap, so is great for when one's off the bike buying food or whatever.
>
> > bivy, tarp, sleeping bag and cook kit in the handlebar bedroll.
> >
> > clothes in the stuff sack behind the seat.
>
> This sounds like quite a bit of weight on the handlebars, and less behind
> the seat. Does that affect steering/handling at all?
> >
> > > On top of saddlebag, secured with a couple of old toestraps: rain
> > > jacket and trousers (gloves in the pockets of the jacket).
> > Helmet on
> > > the climbs.
> > >
> > rain jacket / wind breaker in the jandd top tube bag for accessibility
> >
> > no rain pants or gloves in the summer
> >
> You need them in the Alps any time of year! (-: I've had sleet at the
> top of
> the Col de Agnel in August before now, and on this tour reached the
> basically the same height on the Stelvio. We had a couple of rainy days
> including one where we really had to go for everything.
>
> > > Saddlebag pockets: (1) Fuel bottle and pump, chargers. (2) Tools &
> > > spares.
> >
> > fuel bottle and pump? Whitegas? MSR? I'm suprised so bulky and
> > heavy. Have you tried alcohol. So efficient. ISO butane is peraps the
>
> It's a Karrimor one, not MSR, and does gas cartridges as well as white
> gas,
> petrol and even diesel (apparently). Runs better with gas cartridges,
> but as
> you say, avaiability can be a problem. The only alcohol stove I've
> tried is
> the Trangia, and I wasn't impressed: in a snowhole, I was stuffing my face
> while the Trangia guys were still slowly melting their way through the
> floor...I like the idea of these coke can stoves, but haven't got
> around to
> building one yet. In any case, meths can be hard to find in some
> countries.
> I think you can get it in hardware shops in italy ("Ferrovia"?) but there
> aren't many in the Dolomites anyway.
>
> > My favorite alcohol stove is my side jet alcohol stove made from a
> <...>
> > I'd recommend mini-bull's version at $15 though I made mine.
>
> > http://minibulldesign.com/mbdstore/index.php?main_page=product
> <http://minibulldesign.com/mbdstore/index.php?main_page=product>
> > _info&cPath=1&products_id=32
> > alt url: http://tinyurl.com/yl37l5z <http://tinyurl.com/yl37l5z>
> >
> > I honstley don't think you can get any more efficient, simple, compact
> > or lighter than this stove right now. It's just bomb proof K.I.S.S.
> >
> It seems very clever, although I've not seen such an aluminium bottle here
> in Europe. Is the short burn time (8 minutes) a problem?
>
> <...>
> > My experiments with a 32oz Heineken can down draft wood gas using a
> <...>
> > So far it's going extremely well, expect pictures and videos soon.
> >
> Sounds great...I look forward to seeing this!
>
> > I suspect the Autoshade would work superbly for your hammock.
> >
> In Australia it got so cold we resorted to opened cardboard boxes one
> night!
>
> > > I find that going a bit larger for tyres (700x28C), you can handle
> > > landrover tracks as well as proper roads, yet still keep
> > the road bike
> > > and the handling.
> >
> > I wish I could run 28's on my Salsa Campeon. The largest that will fit
> > are 25mm. 28 - 32mm is ideal for this type of road only touring.
>
> Yes...in fact usually not only road (although ended up that way this
> time).
> Often in the Alps there are passes that are unsurfaced, or only one
> side is
> surfaced, and the other could be anything from singletrack to gravel road,
> hardpacked dirt or stony landrover track, and I've done all these multiple
> times with this setup.
>
> Cheers
>
> Steve
> ____________________________________
> Dr Steve Pells
> MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
> Chancellor's Building, room GU583
> 49 Little France Crescent
> Edinburgh
> EH16 4SB
>
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
> Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>

Hello Blue-

> >     That looks like a great setup! I was wondering if you
> could take a
> > better picture of your saddlebag set up. I cant quite
> imagine what it
> > looks like. I see the pics but, I can figure out how you
> got them both
> > to stay. Also, who makes the saddle bag that is acting like a
> > saddlebag? Thats pretty huge.
> >
There are a couple more pictures on the flickr link I posted

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sentiententity

including one where you can see the saddlebag from the back: I hope this
helps. It's not as large as it looks, remember that my (black) jacket is
rolled up and strapped to the top of the bag for easy accessibility on cold
descents and rain. The top of the saddlebag itself in the "Jaufenpass" shot
is about where the bottom of the helmet/top of the white straps is.

Bag itself is a Carradice "Camper Longflap", and fits on either by strapping
round the seatpin and the saddle rails (or saddlebag loops if you have a
Brooks leather saddle), or you can get a tiny frame for it which clips
quick-release style into a plastic block that clamps onto the seatpin. This
is what I do now; whilst it weighs a little more, it's quick release which I
like, and it holds the bag a bit  higher and further back so that the bag
can't touch the wheel if overloaded and it doesn't touch the back of your
thigh when peddaling (not a problem, but a bit annoying). The handlebar bag
is an Altura one, and uses the "Klickfix" system where it clips to a plastic
block fixed to the handlebars.

Carradice Camper Longflap:
http://carradice.co.uk/saddlebags/camper-longflap-saddlebag.shtml

SQR quick release system for saddlebags:
http://carradice.co.uk/accessories/other.shtml (third pic down shows the
block that fixes to the seatpin)

Klickfix fitting as used on handlbar bag:

http://biddlebikes.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=30&osCsid=547c
badbd737a73e1b341ac40750589a

Cheers

Steve
____________________________________
Dr Steve Pells
MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
Chancellor's Building, room GU583
49 Little France Crescent
Edinburgh
EH16 4SB

Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

Hello-

> [mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser
>
> On the other hand having more bags makes your stuff more secure and
> in-line with the frame... less bulk.  Also theoretically more
> accessible depending on the bags you use.

Yes, that was part of my point: stuffsacks make things a bit tricky to get
in and out of. As for "more secure and inline with the frame", that's one of
the reasons I like saddlebags: they put the weight right at the centre of
gravity of the bike and rider combination, and have the most minimal effect.
Handlebar bags can affect steering, but my newer (and waterproof) one is
lighter than the old one and I only keep light things in it anyway, so it's
not so bad.

> Interestingly I don't even keep my wallet on me.  I store things like

Yes, I think my wallet is safer in the handlebar bag than in an (open
topped) jersey pocket. The Handlebar bag is quick release and has a shoulder
strap, so is great for when one's off the bike buying food or whatever.

> bivy, tarp, sleeping bag and cook kit in the handlebar bedroll.
>
> clothes in the stuff sack behind the seat.

This sounds like quite a bit of weight on the handlebars, and less behind
the seat. Does that affect steering/handling at all?
>
> > On top of saddlebag, secured with a couple of old toestraps: rain
> > jacket and trousers (gloves in the pockets of the jacket).
> Helmet on
> > the climbs.
> >
> rain jacket / wind breaker in the jandd top tube bag for accessibility
>
> no rain pants or gloves in the summer
>
You need them in the Alps any time of year! (-: I've had sleet at the top of
the Col de Agnel in August before now, and on this tour reached the
basically the same height on the Stelvio. We had a couple of rainy days
including one where we really had to go for everything.

> > Saddlebag pockets: (1) Fuel bottle and pump, chargers. (2) Tools &
> > spares.
>
>  fuel bottle and pump?  Whitegas? MSR?  I'm suprised so bulky and
> heavy. Have you tried alcohol. So efficient. ISO butane is peraps the

It's a Karrimor one, not MSR, and does gas cartridges as well as white gas,
petrol and even diesel (apparently). Runs better with gas cartridges, but as
you say, avaiability can be a problem. The only alcohol stove I've tried is
the Trangia, and I wasn't impressed: in a snowhole, I was stuffing my face
while the Trangia guys were still slowly melting their way through the
floor...I like the idea of these coke can stoves, but haven't got around to
building one yet. In any case, meths can be hard to find in some countries.
I think you can get it in hardware shops in italy ("Ferrovia"?) but there
aren't many in the Dolomites anyway.

> My favorite alcohol stove is my side jet alcohol stove made from a
<...>
> I'd recommend mini-bull's version at $15 though I made mine.

> http://minibulldesign.com/mbdstore/index.php?main_page=product
> _info&cPath=1&products_id=32
> alt url: http://tinyurl.com/yl37l5z
>
> I honstley don't think you can get any more efficient, simple, compact
> or lighter than this stove right now. It's just bomb proof K.I.S.S.
>
It seems very clever, although I've not seen such an aluminium bottle here
in Europe. Is the short burn time (8 minutes) a problem?

<...>
> My experiments with a 32oz Heineken can down draft wood gas using a
<...>
> So far it's going extremely well, expect pictures and videos soon.
>
Sounds great...I look forward to seeing this!

> I suspect the Autoshade would work superbly for your hammock.
>
In Australia it got so cold we resorted to opened cardboard boxes one night!

> > I find that going a bit larger for tyres  (700x28C), you can handle
> > landrover tracks as well as proper roads, yet still keep
> the road bike
> > and the handling.
>
> I wish I could run 28's on my Salsa Campeon. The largest that will fit
> are 25mm.  28 - 32mm is ideal for this type of road only touring.

Yes...in fact usually not only road (although ended up that way this time).
Often in the Alps there are passes that are unsurfaced, or only one side is
surfaced, and the other could be anything from singletrack to gravel road,
hardpacked dirt or stony landrover track, and I've done all these multiple
times with this setup.

Cheers

Steve
____________________________________
Dr Steve Pells
MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
Chancellor's Building, room GU583
49 Little France Crescent
Edinburgh
EH16 4SB

Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.

i left a pic of my rig on this site....
i went with the all season hammock
still hanging on to my msr kit for cooking....
back in the early 90`s i used this stove to cook off for 5 months...
i have found packing and repacking every time you learn some thing more with the
frame pack, handlebar pack and super twinkie....
on the handlebar issue i made an estra handle bar so that the cables do not get
messed up being pinched

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:

From: Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 11:29 AM

on the power monkey i have noticed it will charge my cell phone and my mp3
player...
my concern is it going to charge my AA batteries for my helmet light...
another thing i have learned that the power supply cord that comes out of the
main body is weak...has been reported by others that it will fray at its
connected point at the body of the charger...
i also looked up the brunton charger...i like it but it comes with almost zero
connectors
with this one the jury is still out.....

--- On Wed, 11/18/09, twowhelbil01 <TwoWhelBil01@...> wrote:

From: twowhelbil01 <TwoWhelBil01@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] Re: Power Monkey
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 11:29 AM

Conifirl: ...I'm curious about the Powermonkey myself.  Did a google search of
powermonkey, clicked the Amazon site and scrolled down to buyers comments. 
Several positive comments there.~ BillW TN

  --- <conifir1@...> wrote: > I have slowly been getting my equipment together
for my tour… One of the items that I have been looking at is the "Power Monkey
Explorer"





------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

Hello Steve,

     That looks like a great setup! I was wondering if you could take a better
picture of your saddlebag set up. I cant quite imagine what it looks like. I see
the pics but, I can figure out how you got them both to stay. Also, who makes
the saddle bag that is acting like a saddlebag? Thats pretty huge.

thanks!
blue

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Pells" <stevie@...> wrote:
>
> Hi-
>
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser
> Sent: 14 November 2009 19:36
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG
>
> <...>
>
> > Second... have you looked into frame bags? Ultimately lighter because
> > you don't have to have racks and also more secure because they're on the
> > frame. No racks to break, no weight swinging around on in panniers. They
> > are favored by, and the market is being driven by, off road touring,
> > specifically those doing the Great Divide route.  Only negative is the
> > primary frame bag has to be custom made to your frame which can cost a
> > bit more. But still you don't need racks, that's not only a weight
> > savings but a huge cost savings.
>
> Depends on the rack and custom bag in question. (Unless you make it
> yourself of course, like J.D. Ling!)
>
> > Anyway the primary frame bags are 1) a bedroll handlebar bag, 2) a main
> > triangle bag (must be custom) 3) a super twinkie (oversize seat wedge)
> > for stuffing with clothes.
> >
> > People also often add a fourth bag, a top tube "gas tank" or bento bag.
> > Sometimes even a small bag on the top tube under the front of the seat,
> > and even a bag underneath the down tube near  the bottom bracket.
>
> This adds up to 6 bags in total. Even if the individual bags are
> heavier, it might be lighter to have fewer bags, if they deal with all of
> your stuff. My current setup is shown here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sentiententity/
>
> So I fit nearly everything in two bags-a handlebar bag and a saddlebag.
> Both bags are heavier than stuffsacks, I admit, but have some advantages
> which compensates for the extra weight. Both are quick release (although
> you could save a bit with the saddlebag by losing the SQR thingy and
> fixing it to the saddle) and waterproof. There are only two of them,
> which I think makes the whole outfit handle better (important on
> mountain descents) and look better (surely the most important thing of
> all! (-:  ). They are less of a pain in the arse to get in and out of
> during the day. I also had a chewy bar-sized bento box thingy by the
> stem which weighed nearly nothing, but was useless in retrospect. I
> wouldn't take it again. My kit organisation was:
>
> Jersey pockets: Camera (Canon SX200 IS: great little digital for cycle
> tours) in soft case to protect it from the rain. (And sweat). Teddy
> Huez. Penknife and multitool.
>
> Handlebar bag: Passport, wallet, keys, LED headtorch, logbook, pen,
> map, wallet, shades, spare contact lenses, glasses case, tickets and
> other documents, titanium spork, cake or roll, etc.
>
> Saddlebag: Hennessey Hammock, sleeping bag (Blacks 900g summer 2 season
> down & silk liner), clothes, pot, stove, mug, food.
>
> On top of saddlebag, secured with a couple of old toestraps: rain jacket
> and trousers (gloves in the pockets of the jacket). Helmet on the
> climbs.
>
> Saddlebag pockets: (1) Fuel bottle and pump, chargers. (2) Tools &
> spares.
>
> Seat Tube bottle cage: Thermarest "Ultralight" mat. I found before (in
> the Alps, and even in the tropical Australian outback in winter) that I
> get too cold sleeping in a hammock without a mat or something
> underneath.
>
> I find that going a bit larger for tyres  (700x28C), you can handle
> landrover tracks as well as proper roads, yet still keep the road bike
> and the handling.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Steve
>
> ____________________________________
> Dr Steve Pells
> MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
> Chancellor's Building, room GU583
> 49 Little France Crescent
> Edinburgh
> EH16 4SB
>
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
> Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201
>

comments below

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:12 AM, Steve Pells <stevie@...>wrote:

> Hi-
>
>
> --
> The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
> Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser
> Sent: 14 November 2009 19:36
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG
>
> <...>
>
> > Second... have you looked into frame bags? Ultimately lighter because
> > you don't have to have racks and also more secure because they're on the
> > frame. No racks to break, no weight swinging around on in panniers. They
> > are favored by, and the market is being driven by, off road touring,
> > specifically those doing the Great Divide route.  Only negative is the
> > primary frame bag has to be custom made to your frame which can cost a
> > bit more. But still you don't need racks, that's not only a weight
> > savings but a huge cost savings.
>
> Depends on the rack and custom bag in question. (Unless you make it
> yourself of course, like J.D. Ling!)
>
> > Anyway the primary frame bags are 1) a bedroll handlebar bag, 2) a main
> > triangle bag (must be custom) 3) a super twinkie (oversize seat wedge)
> > for stuffing with clothes.
> >
> > People also often add a fourth bag, a top tube "gas tank" or bento bag.
> > Sometimes even a small bag on the top tube under the front of the seat,
> > and even a bag underneath the down tube near  the bottom bracket.
>
> This adds up to 6 bags in total. Even if the individual bags are
> heavier, it might be lighter to have fewer bags, if they deal with all of
> your stuff. My current setup is shown here:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/sentiententity/


On the other hand having more bags makes your stuff more secure and in-line
with the frame... less bulk.  Also theoretically more accessible depending
on the bags you use.



> So I fit nearly everything in two bags-a handlebar bag and a saddlebag.
> Both bags are heavier than stuffsacks, I admit, but have some advantages
> which compensates for the extra weight. Both are quick release (although
> you could save a bit with the saddlebag by losing the SQR thingy and
> fixing it to the saddle) and waterproof. There are only two of them,
> which I think makes the whole outfit handle better (important on
> mountain descents) and look better (surely the most important thing of
> all! (-:  ). They are less of a pain in the arse to get in and out of
> during the day. I also had a chewy bar-sized bento box thingy by the
> stem which weighed nearly nothing, but was useless in retrospect. I
> wouldn't take it again. My kit organisation was:
>

i use my bento box / small gas tank for my camera, for which it works
perfectly keeping it easily accessible and secure. I have a small
sea-to-summit bag I keep handy in case it rains. I roll it and clip it
around the stem.


>
> Jersey pockets: Camera (Canon SX200 IS: great little digital for cycle
> tours) in soft case to protect it from the rain. (And sweat). Teddy
> Huez. Penknife and multitool.
>

Interestingly I don't even keep my wallet on me.  I store things like
wallet, micro tool / knife, keys, cell phone, butt creame, spare batteries
for headlamp and camera, and small food items in my Jandd top tube bag.


> Handlebar bag: Passport, wallet, keys, LED headtorch, logbook, pen,
> map, wallet, shades, spare contact lenses, glasses case, tickets and
> other documents, titanium spork, cake or roll, etc.
>

I keep my LED on my helmet.

Logbook / journal / sketchbook, pen, etc. in my Jannd top tube bag.

Saddlebag: Hennessey Hammock, sleeping bag (Blacks 900g summer 2 season
> down & silk liner), clothes, pot, stove, mug, food.
>

bivy, tarp, sleeping bag and cook kit in the handlebar bedroll.

clothes in the stuff sack behind the seat.


> On top of saddlebag, secured with a couple of old toestraps: rain jacket
> and trousers (gloves in the pockets of the jacket). Helmet on the
> climbs.
>

rain jacket / wind breaker in the jandd top tube bag for accessibility

no rain pants or gloves in the summer


>
> Saddlebag pockets: (1) Fuel bottle and pump, chargers. (2) Tools &
> spares.
>

  fuel bottle and pump?  Whitegas? MSR?  I'm suprised so bulky and heavy.
Have you tried alcohol. So efficient. ISO butane is peraps the best for
short summer trips, but cartridges are hard to find on the road, wheras
alcohol can be found everywhere... I.E. HEET gas-line anti-freeze at nearly
every gas station (here in Michigan at least), denatured alcohol at any
hardware store.  I love HEET... $1.25 to $2.20 for 12oz and found pretty
much everywere here in michigan.

My favorite alcohol stove is my side jet alcohol stove made from a specialty
budweiser can. Darn near as hot and efficient as ISO butane. Requires no pot
stand, just your pot and windscreen. Windscreen can be smaller too since the
stove is so sort.

I'd recommend mini-bull's version at $15 though I made mine.
http://minibulldesign.com/mbdstore/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&prod\
ucts_id=32
alt url: http://tinyurl.com/yl37l5z

I honstley don't think you can get any more efficient, simple, compact or
lighter than this stove right now. It's just bomb proof K.I.S.S.

Since winter is on here in Michigan though I've been obsessing over wood gas
stoves as I can't use any other stove as an ongoing eat source.

My experiments with a 32oz Heineken can down draft wood gas using a tiny
computer fan as an optional forced air mechanism have been absolutely
amazing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4079433096/

However I wanted someting more durable for prolonged burns and that would
pack better so I'm currently protyping a flat pack made of sheet aluminum
based on the same concepts.

The big advantage of wood gas are of course that you needn't carry any fuel
and can burn for prolonged periods of time on tiny amounts of wood. Though
wood gassification is smokeless it does blacken pots and create a tiny bit
of soot.

My latest protypes have worked superbly gassifying well and creating
tremendous heat.

My goals are

- must burn with or without forced air, forced air is theoretically only for
cooking
- must work without burning the surface its sitting on
- must have an extremely fast prime time of 1-2 minutes till cooking
- must pack flat
- must be dependably smokeless
- must burn for prolonged periods of time with little maintence
- must produce a consitently tall (1 foot) bright flame as a light and heat
source

So far it's going extremely well, expect pictures and videos soon.

Seat Tube bottle cage: Thermarest "Ultralight" mat. I found before (in
> the Alps, and even in the tropical Australian outback in winter) that I
> get too cold sleeping in a hammock without a mat or something
> underneath.
>

Good place for it. I'm using an Exped Airmat most often these days with a $5
Autoshade front windshield visor as a heat element on top.  The autoshade is
extremely versatile. Like my much loved z-fold it's the first thing out of
my bags when I stop. So comfortable and warm to sit on.

I suspect the Autoshade would work superbly for your hammock.

One of these days I intend to try hammocking, but with winter on it's not
the time to start.


> I find that going a bit larger for tyres  (700x28C), you can handle
> landrover tracks as well as proper roads, yet still keep the road bike
> and the handling.
>

I wish I could run 28's on my Salsa Campeon. The largest that will fit are
25mm.  28 - 32mm is ideal for this type of road only touring.

Largely because of the tire issue i stick mostly to touring on my Surly
Cross Check, but I don't believe i've ever gotten the total weight on that
below 45lbs.

Cheers,
>
> Steve
>

Cheers,

-Mike


>
> ____________________________________
> Dr Steve Pells
> MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
> Chancellor's Building, room GU583
> 49 Little France Crescent
> Edinburgh
> EH16 4SB
>
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
> Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
> Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Conifirl: ...I'm curious about the Powermonkey myself.  Did a google search of
powermonkey, clicked the Amazon site and scrolled down to buyers comments. 
Several positive comments there.~ BillW TN

  --- <conifir1@...> wrote: > I have slowly been getting my equipment together
for my tour… One of the items that I have been looking at is the "Power Monkey
Explorer"

Hi-


--
The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


-----Original Message-----
From: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Meiser
Sent: 14 November 2009 19:36
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG

<...>

> Second... have you looked into frame bags? Ultimately lighter because
> you don't have to have racks and also more secure because they're on the
> frame. No racks to break, no weight swinging around on in panniers. They
> are favored by, and the market is being driven by, off road touring,
> specifically those doing the Great Divide route.  Only negative is the
> primary frame bag has to be custom made to your frame which can cost a
> bit more. But still you don't need racks, that's not only a weight
> savings but a huge cost savings.

Depends on the rack and custom bag in question. (Unless you make it
yourself of course, like J.D. Ling!)

> Anyway the primary frame bags are 1) a bedroll handlebar bag, 2) a main
> triangle bag (must be custom) 3) a super twinkie (oversize seat wedge)
> for stuffing with clothes.
>
> People also often add a fourth bag, a top tube "gas tank" or bento bag.
> Sometimes even a small bag on the top tube under the front of the seat,
> and even a bag underneath the down tube near  the bottom bracket.

This adds up to 6 bags in total. Even if the individual bags are
heavier, it might be lighter to have fewer bags, if they deal with all of
your stuff. My current setup is shown here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/sentiententity/

So I fit nearly everything in two bags-a handlebar bag and a saddlebag.
Both bags are heavier than stuffsacks, I admit, but have some advantages
which compensates for the extra weight. Both are quick release (although
you could save a bit with the saddlebag by losing the SQR thingy and
fixing it to the saddle) and waterproof. There are only two of them,
which I think makes the whole outfit handle better (important on
mountain descents) and look better (surely the most important thing of
all! (-:  ). They are less of a pain in the arse to get in and out of
during the day. I also had a chewy bar-sized bento box thingy by the
stem which weighed nearly nothing, but was useless in retrospect. I
wouldn't take it again. My kit organisation was:

Jersey pockets: Camera (Canon SX200 IS: great little digital for cycle
tours) in soft case to protect it from the rain. (And sweat). Teddy
Huez. Penknife and multitool.

Handlebar bag: Passport, wallet, keys, LED headtorch, logbook, pen,
map, wallet, shades, spare contact lenses, glasses case, tickets and
other documents, titanium spork, cake or roll, etc.

Saddlebag: Hennessey Hammock, sleeping bag (Blacks 900g summer 2 season
down & silk liner), clothes, pot, stove, mug, food.

On top of saddlebag, secured with a couple of old toestraps: rain jacket
and trousers (gloves in the pockets of the jacket). Helmet on the
climbs.

Saddlebag pockets: (1) Fuel bottle and pump, chargers. (2) Tools &
spares.

Seat Tube bottle cage: Thermarest "Ultralight" mat. I found before (in
the Alps, and even in the tropical Australian outback in winter) that I
get too cold sleeping in a hammock without a mat or something
underneath.

I find that going a bit larger for tyres  (700x28C), you can handle
landrover tracks as well as proper roads, yet still keep the road bike
and the handling.

Cheers,

Steve

____________________________________
Dr Steve Pells
MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
Chancellor's Building, room GU583
49 Little France Crescent
Edinburgh
EH16 4SB

Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201

LOL, I appologize for my gaff recomendation to post this thread to
ultralightbiking group... I subscribe to many mailing lists.  I assumed tis
was a tread on one of my many touring mailing lists. :)

-Mike

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 3:44 PM, Mike Meiser
<groups-yahoo-com@...>wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Clive Standley <cstandley@...> wrote:
>>
>> Also I see that you too have discovered that the skinny one litre
>> Smartwater bottles fit nicely in standard waterbottle cages.
>
>
> I'll second that.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4057634126/sizes/l/
>
> I use one for an alcohol fuel bottle (HEET), and one for a 1.5L down tube
> bottle though it's hard to see in the grass in the photo.
>
> -Mike
>
>
>>  > Hello everyone,
>> >
>> > Having just found this group, this is my first post. Happy to have
>> > found this niche forum!
>> >
>> > I just wanted to share my design to all who are interested. I wanted a
>> > pair of ultralight panniers, and like many of you found the market
>> > quite lacking. After lots of research and staying awake at night
>> > thinking of possible ideas I finally set out from scratch. This was
>> > just over a year ago and took me a few days to complete.
>> >
>> > I think you'll agree my panniers are the cyclo-touring equivalent of
>> > backpacks like Gossamer Gear's G4 or their since discontinued G6
>> > Whisper "überlight" packs. I own the latter as my go-to pack for
>> > backpacking, so I know a bit about the delicate fabric choice
>> > *
>> > POSSIBLE POINTS OF INTEREST: *
>> > -I already knew basic sewing, which is all I really needed
>> > -At the time I was already backpacking with a base weight of around 6
>> lbs.
>> > -I had been fairly active on the forums at backpackinglight.com
>> > -This was not my first tour, but would be my first set of panners
>> >
>> > *BODY OF PANNIERS:*
>> > I had purchased yardage of 1 oz. silnylon at Wal-mart for $1/yd on a
>> > tip I received on BPL forums. I had already sewed a bivy out of the
>> > material and had lots left. Also at Wal-mart, I purchased a bit of
>> > some VERY heavy-duty ballistic type rubber-coated fabric to use for
>> > the back. My webbing happened to be something I had lying around:
>> > Kevlar-reinforced truck strapping. I simply cut it up in to useful
>> > lengths.
>> >
>> > I used the silnylon for the front, side and bottom panels as well as
>> > the upper back panel. I used a roll-top design as this is by far the
>> > lightest closure option and the choice for most ultralight backpacks.
>> > The back panel facing the spokes was made from the heavy nylon.
>> >
>> > To keep the bag as aerodynamic and shapely as possible without any
>> > type of rigid or semi-rigid back panel, I articulated the panels so
>> > they tapered semi-conically to the bottom, but were wide and square
>> > for the roll top.
>> >
>> > I spent plenty of mental energy considering possible frame options for
>> > the back; from cutting my sleeping pad into puzzle-shape pieces that
>> > lent shape at day and re-assembled at night for sleeping to fashioning
>> > lightweight aluminum (or wooden) rulers into pack stays. I finally
>> > decided the tautness of the fabric could keep the bags out of the
>> > spokes if sized correctly. Basically I divided the cubic inches of my
>> > GG G6 Whisper in half and went from there.
>> > *
>> > ATTACHMENT TO RACK:*
>> > Again, lots of mental energy lost considering different ways to attach
>> > the bags to the rack before beginning. The design I landed on is
>> > EXTREMELY simple, but has limitations. For starters, you can't removed
>> > the bags with simple clips; you can't even remove one side without
>> > removing the other. Next these panniers can't be used on other racks
>> > without some reworking of the straps.
>> >
>> > The right and left bags are attached by two lengths of webbing that
>> > hang over the rack and are sewn to the heavy nylon back panel. On the
>> > inside of the pack, another length of nylon is used to reinforce this
>> > point of stress. I made the attachment system custom to fit my Tubus
>> > Fly (my rack of choice, until some financial fluke affords me the
>> > Airy). As such, the webbing closer to the saddle is shorter.
>> >
>> > The lower point of attachment was made using some cut-down elastic and
>> > hook from a bike cargo bungee. the flat band of elastic was perfect.
>> > Again, the point of stress was reinforced with webbing sewn inside the
>> > bag. The steel hook latched to the rack, but the bags are not attached
>> > until the opposite side is hung over the rack and the hook is
>> > stretched down and attached to the other side. Attaching the bags is
>> > more difficult to accomplish when backs are loaded, so on tour, I
>> > found it easier to leave the bags attached to the rack and simply pull
>> > out the plastic bags I used as stuff sacks with all my gear inside.
>> >
>> > due to the taper design of the rack near the seatpost, the bags tended
>> > to migrate forward on the rack. To keep them from plopping off the
>> > rack at the front (an unfortunate quality of the Fly) I quickly
>> > fashioned another piece of webbing with velcro that looped around the
>> > rear piece of webbing and the rear strut of the rack pulling the bags
>> > taut to the back of the rack and the issue was solved.
>> >
>> > *BAG CLOSURE: *
>> > Again, EXTREMELY simple here. The roll top design is such an easy,
>> > lightweight solution, I never really considered another option. I
>> > simply sewed lightweight elastic cord (non-elastic might have been a
>> > better choice in retrospect) to either side of the top. To lash these
>> > down, I sewed simple buttons onto the heavy nylon and reinforced that
>> > point with webbing inside. Once rolled, I could pull the elastic cord
>> > down to button and wrap around several times and loop it back onto
>> > itself to keep it from unravelling. SIMPLE!
>> >
>> > The roll top option is never 100% waterproof, so I use plastic bags
>> > inside as a sort of bag liner/stuff sack just as I do with my
>> > backpacks. Cheap and lightweight as well.
>> >
>> > *PERFORMANCE:
>> > *I used these for only one tour so far (800 miles down Pacific coast),
>> > but there were ZERO issues and I plan to use them for at least a few
>> > more tours (hopefully at greater distances). My primary sport is
>> > backpacking, so I probably don't tour as much as most of you, but I
>> > definitely love it!
>> >
>> > I was ecstatic about the weight of these when I finished. I can't
>> > quite remember, but I'm pretty sure the lightest panniers I came
>> > across on the web weighed in at about 1.5 lbs and those were MYOG!
>> > Maybe someone else had made lighter ones since I was researching.
>> >
>> > The only issue I have with my bags is that because they have no frame
>> > to them, they tend to round out quite a bit when fully stuffed. This
>> > causes quite a lot of cross sectional area for wind to drag. Also
>> > doesn't look as sleek :) The bags end up rocking a bit when stopping
>> > due to lack of rigid frame.
>> >
>> > Alas, these issues were minor and I feel for myself they are
>> > outweighed by simplicity and weight reduction.
>> >
>> > I'll post my list here, but don't be too harsh, there are quite a few
>> > changes I would make to it (I didn't carry chain lube!). Plus I'm sure
>> > I can go much lighter now for the same distance:
>> >
>> > GEAR LIST
>> > <http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pjCMFMyq-vrR5__PgbLGbYw>
>> > *
>> > PHOTOS (sorry only on the bike):*
>> > mines in gunnar in the front
>> > <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1306.jpg>
>> > another <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1070.jpg>
>> > and another <
>> http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_0990.jpg>
>> > detail of panniers
>> > <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1315.jpg>
>> >
>> > Hope you enjoy, maybe even inspired to make your own / improve on these.
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

this is my set up


--- On Sun, 11/15/09, j.a. tackett <conifir1@...> wrote:

From: j.a. tackett <conifir1@...>
Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, November 15, 2009, 3:39 AM


nice set up

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:

From: Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] 7.9oz ultralight silnylon panniers MYOG
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 1:44 PM

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Clive Standley <cstandley@...> wrote:
>
> Also I see that you too have discovered that the skinny one litre
> Smartwater bottles fit nicely in standard waterbottle cages.


I'll second that.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4057634126/sizes/l/

I use one for an alcohol fuel bottle (HEET), and one for a 1.5L down tube
bottle though it's hard to see in the grass in the photo.

-Mike


> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Having just found this group, this is my first post. Happy to have
> > found this niche forum!
> >


------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Clive Standley <cstandley@...> wrote:
>
> Also I see that you too have discovered that the skinny one litre
> Smartwater bottles fit nicely in standard waterbottle cages.


I'll second that.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/4057634126/sizes/l/

I use one for an alcohol fuel bottle (HEET), and one for a 1.5L down tube
bottle though it's hard to see in the grass in the photo.

-Mike


> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > Having just found this group, this is my first post. Happy to have
> > found this niche forum!
> >

Re: your panniers bulging

Heh, instead of fighting the fact that your panniers are going to naturally
pack round why not just embrace it and use two or more smaller stuff-able
cylinders for every bag?

This is in keeping with what ultralight packers are doing lately. Multiple
stuff sacks mounted openly on a frame.  It eases organization, makes things
easier to get at, and ultimately round stuff sacks are stronger and pack
better because they distribute stress evenly on seams.

If you wanted to get really crazy you could figure out how to mount these
smaller bags horizontally on your rack as well. Bonus points.

Sorry I don't have any pictures of this ultralight hiker packing technique
off hand.

I'm betting though the solution to mounting the bags to the racks
horizontaly or otherwise has already been resolved by hikers and it probably
will translate 1:1 to mounting stuff sacks on bike racks.

-Mike

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Mike Meiser
<groups-yahoo-com@...>wrote:

> comments below
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Potter <jeff@...>wrote:
>
>> The pans look dandy. Thanks for the report!
>>
>> In looking at your overall set-up, I'd personally try to delete the
>> rack itself and the heavy Brooks saddle. I assume you love/need the
>> Brooks so altering that might not be an option. And with your current
>> bike frame the rack is necessary -- and it's light as they go, for
>> sure. So you've done GREAT with what you have.
>>
>> I haven't done true UL touring so forgive me for speculating and I
>> mean no detraction of your set-up, but it gets me to thinkin'!
>>
>> I'm drawn to the seatpost burrito, handlebar burrito and framepack
>> system. (I wonder if you can fit a waterbottle in with a framepack
>> somehow.) These days I don't like carrying more water than I need
>> between stops. You look like you're good for 75 miles there, but
>> weather can change that a lot.
>>
>
> Though we use different names we're definitely talking about the same
> thing.
>
> BTW, Just to reitterate, huge tip on the water bottle thing. Use reflector
> mounts to mount water bottles on places like the front fork. Though I
> haven't tried this yet myself I've just recently seen people doing this and
> I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't not only be versatile but
> durable as well. Brilliant obviousness if you ask me.
>
>
>>
>> At present I still use racks on my tour bike so your UL pan concept
>> would work good for me, but my new go-fast bike (old parts built
>> around bartered light frame) is what gets me to thinkin'! It's a
>> compact frame and only 16 lbs. -- which is what tempts me to go the
>> rackless burritos route. If it fits 25-28mm tires it might work for
>> smooth road touring. A compact road bike with more tire clearance
>> might really be the ticket. But of course it all starts with what
>> bike ya got.
>>
>
> I lament that my Campeon will only take 25mm tires at most. 28mm should
> give you plenty to do some pretty hard core touring if you're 150-200lbs.  I
> myself am 250lbs... 25mm is just to narrow for all the most selective of
> tours.
>
> I also kinda like the idea of getting rid of waterbottles and cages
>> -- is the only way to do that realistically to go with a bladder? One
>> could use a UL silnylon backpack and small bladder -- does this end
>> up *much* lighter than bottles and cages? I figure the best way to
>> save weight on water is to carry less if you're in areas where there
>> are lots of friendly faucets. (Of course if you want to go far and
>> fast then stopping every couple hours might not be in your plan. Ouch!)
>>
>
> Oh!  Another great tip. Cuben or home made sil Nylon backpacks!
>
> brilliant example:
> http://www.zpacks.com/large_image.shtml?backpacks/zero/zero_cuben_front_l.jpg
>
> I forgot to mention this integral part of my ultra-light setup. It's not
> only great for extra water in a bladder when you need it but especially for
> groceries.
>
> Mine is home made and packs up so small I can stuff it in the end of my
> handlebar.  I use it only when I need to cary some extra water or stop at a
> grocery store.
>
> The idea was somewhat inspired by the feed bags used in the tour de france,
> but those get in the way for long term riding.
>
>
>>
>> Considering you mention aerodynamics, I wonder if an aerobar might be
>> justified -- and used as a front support for a bigger bar-burrito.
>>
>
> Funny you should say that because some Iditarod invitational and Tour
> Divide racers often put aero bars on their mountain bikes to steady the bivy
> roll.  Another option for some is to put on a second handlebar stem.
>
>
>> Anyway, it seems that with your general UL approach that a complete
>> rig could be done up at, like, 7 lbs less for not much more $ IF you
>> had a compact frame to start with and IF you had more fabric and just
>> kept sewing and designing a few days longer.  : )  Press on!
>>
>
> BTW, just made some calls on making a home made frame bag this winter...
> it's already in the works!
>
> -Mike
> mmeiser.com/blog
> flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2
>
>
>
>> --JP
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

comments below

On Sat, Nov 14, 2009 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Potter <jeff@...>wrote:

> The pans look dandy. Thanks for the report!
>
> In looking at your overall set-up, I'd personally try to delete the
> rack itself and the heavy Brooks saddle. I assume you love/need the
> Brooks so altering that might not be an option. And with your current
> bike frame the rack is necessary -- and it's light as they go, for
> sure. So you've done GREAT with what you have.
>
> I haven't done true UL touring so forgive me for speculating and I
> mean no detraction of your set-up, but it gets me to thinkin'!
>
> I'm drawn to the seatpost burrito, handlebar burrito and framepack
> system. (I wonder if you can fit a waterbottle in with a framepack
> somehow.) These days I don't like carrying more water than I need
> between stops. You look like you're good for 75 miles there, but
> weather can change that a lot.
>

Though we use different names we're definitely talking about the same thing.

BTW, Just to reitterate, huge tip on the water bottle thing. Use reflector
mounts to mount water bottles on places like the front fork. Though I
haven't tried this yet myself I've just recently seen people doing this and
I see absolutely no reason why it shouldn't not only be versatile but
durable as well. Brilliant obviousness if you ask me.


>
> At present I still use racks on my tour bike so your UL pan concept
> would work good for me, but my new go-fast bike (old parts built
> around bartered light frame) is what gets me to thinkin'! It's a
> compact frame and only 16 lbs. -- which is what tempts me to go the
> rackless burritos route. If it fits 25-28mm tires it might work for
> smooth road touring. A compact road bike with more tire clearance
> might really be the ticket. But of course it all starts with what
> bike ya got.
>

I lament that my Campeon will only take 25mm tires at most. 28mm should give
you plenty to do some pretty hard core touring if you're 150-200lbs.  I
myself am 250lbs... 25mm is just to narrow for all the most selective of
tours.

I also kinda like the idea of getting rid of waterbottles and cages
> -- is the only way to do that realistically to go with a bladder? One
> could use a UL silnylon backpack and small bladder -- does this end
> up *much* lighter than bottles and cages? I figure the best way to
> save weight on water is to carry less if you're in areas where there
> are lots of friendly faucets. (Of course if you want to go far and
> fast then stopping every couple hours might not be in your plan. Ouch!)
>

Oh!  Another great tip. Cuben or home made sil Nylon backpacks!

brilliant example:
http://www.zpacks.com/large_image.shtml?backpacks/zero/zero_cuben_front_l.jpg

I forgot to mention this integral part of my ultra-light setup. It's not
only great for extra water in a bladder when you need it but especially for
groceries.

Mine is home made and packs up so small I can stuff it in the end of my
handlebar.  I use it only when I need to cary some extra water or stop at a
grocery store.

The idea was somewhat inspired by the feed bags used in the tour de france,
but those get in the way for long term riding.


>
> Considering you mention aerodynamics, I wonder if an aerobar might be
> justified -- and used as a front support for a bigger bar-burrito.
>

Funny you should say that because some Iditarod invitational and Tour Divide
racers often put aero bars on their mountain bikes to steady the bivy roll.
  Another option for some is to put on a second handlebar stem.


> Anyway, it seems that with your general UL approach that a complete
> rig could be done up at, like, 7 lbs less for not much more $ IF you
> had a compact frame to start with and IF you had more fabric and just
> kept sewing and designing a few days longer.  : )  Press on!
>

BTW, just made some calls on making a home made frame bag this winter...
it's already in the works!

-Mike
mmeiser.com/blog
flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2



> --JP
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

The pans look dandy. Thanks for the report!

In looking at your overall set-up, I'd personally try to delete the
rack itself and the heavy Brooks saddle. I assume you love/need the
Brooks so altering that might not be an option. And with your current
bike frame the rack is necessary -- and it's light as they go, for
sure. So you've done GREAT with what you have.

I haven't done true UL touring so forgive me for speculating and I
mean no detraction of your set-up, but it gets me to thinkin'!

I'm drawn to the seatpost burrito, handlebar burrito and framepack
system. (I wonder if you can fit a waterbottle in with a framepack
somehow.) These days I don't like carrying more water than I need
between stops. You look like you're good for 75 miles there, but
weather can change that a lot.

At present I still use racks on my tour bike so your UL pan concept
would work good for me, but my new go-fast bike (old parts built
around bartered light frame) is what gets me to thinkin'! It's a
compact frame and only 16 lbs. -- which is what tempts me to go the
rackless burritos route. If it fits 25-28mm tires it might work for
smooth road touring. A compact road bike with more tire clearance
might really be the ticket. But of course it all starts with what
bike ya got.

I also kinda like the idea of getting rid of waterbottles and cages
-- is the only way to do that realistically to go with a bladder? One
could use a UL silnylon backpack and small bladder -- does this end
up *much* lighter than bottles and cages? I figure the best way to
save weight on water is to carry less if you're in areas where there
are lots of friendly faucets. (Of course if you want to go far and
fast then stopping every couple hours might not be in your plan. Ouch!)

Considering you mention aerodynamics, I wonder if an aerobar might be
justified -- and used as a front support for a bigger bar-burrito.

Anyway, it seems that with your general UL approach that a complete
rig could be done up at, like, 7 lbs less for not much more $ IF you
had a compact frame to start with and IF you had more fabric and just
kept sewing and designing a few days longer.  : )  Press on!

--JP

Really nice post.
I admire your tenacious approach to the problem and project. A couple of
years ago I was looking for ultralight panniers (after seeing what
Ortleibs and Arkels weigh) and couldn't find anything. I don't have your
sewing skill and so went the saddlebag route. A Nelson Longflap and an
Expedition Bagman weigh 2.6lbs, so considerably more than your panniers.
I've often wondered if an ultralight saddlebag would be a good thing?

Also I see that you too have discovered that the skinny one litre
Smartwater bottles fit nicely in standard waterbottle cages.

> Hello everyone,
>
> Having just found this group, this is my first post. Happy to have
> found this niche forum!
>
> I just wanted to share my design to all who are interested. I wanted a
> pair of ultralight panniers, and like many of you found the market
> quite lacking. After lots of research and staying awake at night
> thinking of possible ideas I finally set out from scratch. This was
> just over a year ago and took me a few days to complete.
>
> I think you'll agree my panniers are the cyclo-touring equivalent of
> backpacks like Gossamer Gear's G4 or their since discontinued G6
> Whisper "überlight" packs. I own the latter as my go-to pack for
> backpacking, so I know a bit about the delicate fabric choice
> *
> POSSIBLE POINTS OF INTEREST: *
> -I already knew basic sewing, which is all I really needed
> -At the time I was already backpacking with a base weight of around 6 lbs.
> -I had been fairly active on the forums at backpackinglight.com
> -This was not my first tour, but would be my first set of panners
>
> *BODY OF PANNIERS:*
> I had purchased yardage of 1 oz. silnylon at Wal-mart for $1/yd on a
> tip I received on BPL forums. I had already sewed a bivy out of the
> material and had lots left. Also at Wal-mart, I purchased a bit of
> some VERY heavy-duty ballistic type rubber-coated fabric to use for
> the back. My webbing happened to be something I had lying around:
> Kevlar-reinforced truck strapping. I simply cut it up in to useful
> lengths.
>
> I used the silnylon for the front, side and bottom panels as well as
> the upper back panel. I used a roll-top design as this is by far the
> lightest closure option and the choice for most ultralight backpacks.
> The back panel facing the spokes was made from the heavy nylon.
>
> To keep the bag as aerodynamic and shapely as possible without any
> type of rigid or semi-rigid back panel, I articulated the panels so
> they tapered semi-conically to the bottom, but were wide and square
> for the roll top.
>
> I spent plenty of mental energy considering possible frame options for
> the back; from cutting my sleeping pad into puzzle-shape pieces that
> lent shape at day and re-assembled at night for sleeping to fashioning
> lightweight aluminum (or wooden) rulers into pack stays. I finally
> decided the tautness of the fabric could keep the bags out of the
> spokes if sized correctly. Basically I divided the cubic inches of my
> GG G6 Whisper in half and went from there.
> *
> ATTACHMENT TO RACK:*
> Again, lots of mental energy lost considering different ways to attach
> the bags to the rack before beginning. The design I landed on is
> EXTREMELY simple, but has limitations. For starters, you can't removed
> the bags with simple clips; you can't even remove one side without
> removing the other. Next these panniers can't be used on other racks
> without some reworking of the straps.
>
> The right and left bags are attached by two lengths of webbing that
> hang over the rack and are sewn to the heavy nylon back panel. On the
> inside of the pack, another length of nylon is used to reinforce this
> point of stress. I made the attachment system custom to fit my Tubus
> Fly (my rack of choice, until some financial fluke affords me the
> Airy). As such, the webbing closer to the saddle is shorter.
>
> The lower point of attachment was made using some cut-down elastic and
> hook from a bike cargo bungee. the flat band of elastic was perfect.
> Again, the point of stress was reinforced with webbing sewn inside the
> bag. The steel hook latched to the rack, but the bags are not attached
> until the opposite side is hung over the rack and the hook is
> stretched down and attached to the other side. Attaching the bags is
> more difficult to accomplish when backs are loaded, so on tour, I
> found it easier to leave the bags attached to the rack and simply pull
> out the plastic bags I used as stuff sacks with all my gear inside.
>
> due to the taper design of the rack near the seatpost, the bags tended
> to migrate forward on the rack. To keep them from plopping off the
> rack at the front (an unfortunate quality of the Fly) I quickly
> fashioned another piece of webbing with velcro that looped around the
> rear piece of webbing and the rear strut of the rack pulling the bags
> taut to the back of the rack and the issue was solved.
>
> *BAG CLOSURE: *
> Again, EXTREMELY simple here. The roll top design is such an easy,
> lightweight solution, I never really considered another option. I
> simply sewed lightweight elastic cord (non-elastic might have been a
> better choice in retrospect) to either side of the top. To lash these
> down, I sewed simple buttons onto the heavy nylon and reinforced that
> point with webbing inside. Once rolled, I could pull the elastic cord
> down to button and wrap around several times and loop it back onto
> itself to keep it from unravelling. SIMPLE!
>
> The roll top option is never 100% waterproof, so I use plastic bags
> inside as a sort of bag liner/stuff sack just as I do with my
> backpacks. Cheap and lightweight as well.
>
> *PERFORMANCE:
> *I used these for only one tour so far (800 miles down Pacific coast),
> but there were ZERO issues and I plan to use them for at least a few
> more tours (hopefully at greater distances). My primary sport is
> backpacking, so I probably don't tour as much as most of you, but I
> definitely love it!
>
> I was ecstatic about the weight of these when I finished. I can't
> quite remember, but I'm pretty sure the lightest panniers I came
> across on the web weighed in at about 1.5 lbs and those were MYOG!
> Maybe someone else had made lighter ones since I was researching.
>
> The only issue I have with my bags is that because they have no frame
> to them, they tend to round out quite a bit when fully stuffed. This
> causes quite a lot of cross sectional area for wind to drag. Also
> doesn't look as sleek :) The bags end up rocking a bit when stopping
> due to lack of rigid frame.
>
> Alas, these issues were minor and I feel for myself they are
> outweighed by simplicity and weight reduction.
>
> I'll post my list here, but don't be too harsh, there are quite a few
> changes I would make to it (I didn't carry chain lube!). Plus I'm sure
> I can go much lighter now for the same distance:
>
> GEAR LIST
> <http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pjCMFMyq-vrR5__PgbLGbYw>
> *
> PHOTOS (sorry only on the bike):*
> mines in gunnar in the front
> <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1306.jpg>
> another <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1070.jpg>
> and another <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_0990.jpg>
> detail of panniers
> <http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i235/ling_jd/IMG_1315.jpg>
>
> Hope you enjoy, maybe even inspired to make your own / improve on these.
>
>

That's right. just needs to do straight stitch and zig zag helps. That means you
can pretty much use any machine. When I was sewing the webbing (2 layers of
webbing and 1 layer heavy nylon) I had to use a stronger needle and pay close
attention to the tension.

threading a machine correctly is half the battle of learning to sew. pretty
simple after that once you get a hang of how to piece things together.

----- Original Message -----

From: Erik Brooks

Those look great - thanks for sharing.    I don't have sewing gear.  To sew this lightweight stuff, you only need a minimal machine, right?  Maybe look for a machine on Craigslist?

Erik

On Fri, Nov 13, 2009 at 10:29 AM, ling_jd <ling_jd@...> wrote:

Hello everyone,

Having just found this group, this is my first post. Happy to have found this niche forum!

I just wanted to share my design to all who are interested. I wanted a pair of ultralight panniers, and like many of you found the market quite lacking. After lots of research and staying awake at night thinking of possible ideas I finally set out from scratch. This was just over a year ago and took me a few days to complete.

I think you'll agree my panniers are the cyclo-touring equivalent of backpacks like Gossamer Gear's G4 or their since discontinued G6 Whisper "überlight" packs. I own the latter as my go-to pack for backpacking, so I know a bit about the delicate fabric choice

POSSIBLE POINTS OF INTEREST:
-I already knew basic sewing, which is all I really needed
-At the time I was already backpacking with a base weight of around 6 lbs.
-I had been fairly active on the forums at backpackinglight.com
-This was not my first tour, but would be my first set of panners

BODY OF PANNIERS:
I had purchased yardage of 1 oz. silnylon at Wal-mart for $1/yd on a tip I received on BPL forums. I had already sewed a bivy out of the material and had lots left. Also at Wal-mart, I purchased a bit of some VERY heavy-duty ballistic type rubber-coated fabric to use for the back. My webbing happened to be something I had lying around: Kevlar-reinforced truck strapping. I simply cut it up in to useful lengths.

I used the silnylon for the front, side and bottom panels as well as the upper back panel. I used a roll-top design as this is by far the lightest closure option and the choice for most ultralight backpacks. The back panel facing the spokes was made from the heavy nylon.

To keep the bag as aerodynamic and shapely as possible without any type of rigid or semi-rigid back panel, I articulated the panels so they tapered semi-conically to the bottom, but were wide and square for the roll top.

I spent plenty of mental energy considering possible frame options for the back; from cutting my sleeping pad into puzzle-shape pieces that lent shape at day and re-assembled at night for sleeping to fashioning lightweight aluminum (or wooden) rulers into pack stays. I finally decided the tautness of the fabric could keep the bags out of the spokes if sized correctly. Basically I divided the cubic inches of my GG G6 Whisper in half and went from there.

ATTACHMENT TO RACK:
Again, lots of mental energy lost considering different ways to attach the bags to the rack before beginning. The design I landed on is EXTREMELY simple, but has limitations. For starters, you can't removed the bags with simple clips; you can't even remove one side without removing the other. Next these panniers can't be used on other racks without some reworking of the straps.

The right and left bags are attached by two lengths of webbing that hang over the rack and are sewn to the heavy nylon back panel. On the inside of the pack, another length of nylon is used to reinforce this point of stress. I made the attachment system custom to fit my Tubus Fly (my rack of choice, until some financial fluke affords me the Airy). As such, the webbing closer to the saddle is shorter.

The lower point of attachment was made using some cut-down elastic and hook from a bike cargo bungee. the flat band of elastic was perfect. Again, the point of stress was reinforced with webbing sewn inside the bag. The steel hook latched to the rack, but the bags are not attached until the opposite side is hung over the rack and the hook is stretched down and attached to the other side. Attaching the bags is more difficult to accomplish when backs are loaded, so on tour, I found it easier to leave the bags attached to the rack and simply pull out the plastic bags I used as stuff sacks with all my gear inside.

due to the taper design of the rack near the seatpost, the bags tended to migrate forward on the rack. To keep them from plopping off the rack at the front (an unfortunate quality of the Fly) I quickly fashioned another piece of webbing with velcro that looped around the rear piece of webbing and the rear strut of the rack pulling the bags taut to the back of the rack and the issue was solved.

BAG CLOSURE:
Again, EXTREMELY simple here. The roll top design is such an easy, lightweight solution, I never really considered another option. I simply sewed lightweight elastic cord (non-elastic might have been a better choice in retrospect) to either side of the top. To lash these down, I sewed simple buttons onto the heavy nylon and reinforced that point with webbing inside. Once rolled, I could pull the elastic cord down to button and wrap around several times and loop it back onto itself to keep it from unravelling. SIMPLE!

The roll top option is never 100% waterproof, so I use plastic bags inside as a sort of bag liner/stuff sack just as I do with my backpacks. Cheap and lightweight as well.

PERFORMANCE:
I used these for only one tour so far (800 miles down Pacific coast), but there were ZERO issues and I plan to use them for at least a few more tours (hopefully at greater distances). My primary sport is backpacking, so I probably don't tour as much as most of you, but I definitely love it!

I was ecstatic about the weight of these when I finished. I can't quite remember, but I'm pretty sure the lightest panniers I came across on the web weighed in at about 1.5 lbs and those were MYOG! Maybe someone else had made lighter ones since I was researching.

The only issue I have with my bags is that because they have no frame to them, they tend to round out quite a bit when fully stuffed. This causes quite a lot of cross sectional area for wind to drag. Also doesn't look as sleek :) The bags end up rocking a bit when stopping due to lack of rigid frame.

Alas, these issues were minor and I feel for myself they are outweighed by simplicity and weight reduction.

I'll post my list here, but don't be too harsh, there are quite a few changes I would make to it (I didn't carry chain lube!). Plus I'm sure I can go much lighter now for the same distance:

GEAR LIST

PHOTOS (sorry only on the bike):
mines in gunnar in the front
another
and another 
detail of panniers 

Hope you enjoy, maybe even inspired to make your own / improve on these.

Dear Stan-

A nice video indeed. I agree with you with respect to saddlebags. I've just
back from the Italian Alps with a pretty similar system to yours:

Carradice Nelson Longflap Saddlebag: Although it adds a little bit of
weight, the last couple of years I've also used their "SQR" quick-release
system for the saddlebag. As well as being much quicker to get get the bag
off the bike, it also holds it a bit higher and a bit further back, so that
one's thighs don't touch the bag at the back of the pedal stroke and when
very full there's no chance of the bag touching the wheel. (I am not using
either a front or rear rack, which saves quite a bit of weight itself). The
saddlebag holds my tools in one pocket, fuel bottle in the other (Karrimor
"Flexifuel" stove), and the main compartment holds my sleeping bag ("Quantum
300" 2-season down from Blacks + a silk liner in a compression sack),
Hennessey Hammock, clothes, washkit, bits and bobs (e.g. on this trip, phone
and camera chargers), cable lock and cooking pot (with food inside). Rain
kit rolled up and strapped to the top of the saddlebag with a couple of
spare toestraps so it's always handy.

Seat Tube: Used a Topeak "Modula" bottle cage - which can adapt to different
sized bottles - to hold a Thermarest "Ultralight" sleeping mat. Secured in
place with a tostrap around the top and the seat rube, but probably not
needed.

Handlebar Bag: Passport, wallet, tickets, glasses, contact lenses, keys,
microtripod for the camera, leg warmers.

Jersey pockets: L: Swiss army knife, multitool, arm warmers; M: Teddy Huez;
R: Camera.

At our last bivvy, the Karrimor stove choked with soot, so we built a proper
camp fire, which was nice.

s.


____________________________________
Dr Steve Pells
MRC Centre for Regenerative Medicine
Chancellor's Building, room GU583
49 Little France Crescent
Edinburgh
EH16 4SB

Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6163 (Office)
Tel: (+44) 0131 242 6263 (Lab)
Fax: (+44) 0131 242 6201

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ghholbrook
> Sent: 14 August 2009 14:42
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ultralightbiking] Re: Light weight touring kit
>
> Hi Stan,
>
> Nice work on the video.  I look at so many lightweight kit
> photos online, but I can't fathom how they fit the volume in
> such small bags.  This goes especially for some of the
> minimalist Tour Divide racers.
>
> Nothing inspired me to tour more than Henry Kingman's writing
> for Rivendell.  I wish there was a more complete compilation
> of his writing than milly.org.
>
> Regards,
>
> Grant Holbrook
> Richmond, VA
>
>
> --- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, "standley"
> <cstandley@...> wrote:
> >
> > FYI I put together a video gear list. My gear weight is
> between 20 and 25lbs so I'd describe it as lightweight rather
> than ultralight.
> >
> > I see a lot of frame bags, but not many traditional
> saddlebags and I think they deserve a bit more attention. The
> material is not exactly ultralight, but they are
> fantastically practical and rugged and should be more in the mix.
> >
> > http://www.wheelsofchance.com
> >
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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