You might check to see what Mark Boyd on the Touring List has to say
about the LHT. Few people research anything more thoroughly than he does.

Jim

----- Original Message -----
From: "J M" <john63401@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] Long Haul Trucker ride vs Cross Check ride?


> Is there anyone out there that has ridden or owns BOTH bikes and can
> tell me how the ride between the two differs?
>
> Is the Cross Check more nimble and quicker responding?   Seem more
> "lively"?
>
> I'm very interested in the previous post abt the guy who outfitted his
> racing bike for overnight touring and how much fun it was.
>
> I can only afford one bike and don't want a race bike so was thinking
> of cross bike that could do what he has done and also serve as
> commuting bike.... yet still feel lively and fast like his setup
>

Is there anyone out there that has ridden or owns BOTH bikes and can
tell me how the ride between the two differs?

Is the Cross Check more nimble and quicker responding?   Seem more "lively"?

I'm very interested in the previous post abt the guy who outfitted his
racing bike for overnight touring and how much fun it was.

I can only afford one bike and don't want a race bike so was thinking
of cross bike that could do what he has done and also serve as
commuting bike.... yet still feel lively and fast like his setup

Igor, when are you leaving Vancouver? I know something about parts of your
route.

Barry
Vancouver randonneur

--- On Fri, 6/26/09, ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
<ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

From: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com <ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: {Disarmed} [ultralightbiking] Digest Number 447
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 3:15 PM

I have been flipping through your trip blogs

http://www.blogger.com/profile/08044746367328550812

...and your gear many lists.
Some amazing trips.

A tremendous amount of info.

I'm inspired by your go light philosophy and the way you execute it.

This philosophy is not anything that's overt or written about directly (that
I've yet read), but scanning your trip blogs I'm just getting a sense of it.


== less stuff more freedom ==

My own attitude on packing light is "Less stuff. More freedom."

This attitude is tempered by my the need to be self supported / self
sustainable.

It's a fine balancing act.

I still carry a stove and cook kit. Most of the time anyway.

But I am an opportunist and enjoy the occasional motel and and restaurant
when I can.

It's just about trying to find that fine balance of flexibility and freedom.

It's always a mix of what you can find on the road (most often at the
ubiquitous gas station) and what you carry. This varies tremendously with
where you're traveling. Not just the country, but also whether off road, on
road... or back roads.

This balance also varies tremendously with your experience and creativity.

A quick example of my own...

When I first started doing long distances I recall an incident where I did
near 100 miles with only two bottles of water, a headwind and and in 95
degrees. It was a holiday weekend and my route somehow amazingly had NO gas
stations or open stores.  I was so focused on making time and just getting
to the next big town I bombed horribly and had to call it quits for the rest
of the day.

Why it never occurred to me to just stop at a house, knock on a door or use
a garden hose spigot is beyond me.

Nowadays I don't worry about water as much because not only is every gas
station and store is an opportunity for water, but also every house.

This makes my point that the greatest obstacle to successful tourng is our
own pre-conconceptions. The trick is to lift the veil of those perceptions
and think of creative solutions that clearly appraise the situation.

Reading through your trip logs I can see many many things that challenge my
perceptions... having to bribe guards at checkpoints... dealing with the
slow wheels of bureaucracy... a store owner that not only sells you food but
actually prepares it for you.

These also might be things like sleeping in a barn, or a strangers house.

I can't really say I'd be comfortable with these things unless I was in the
situation. Context is everything.


== shedding pre-concieved notions / thinking creatively on the road ==

A quick example from backpacker lore...

I've heard thru hikers on the Appalachian Trail going from Florida to Main
say that all notions of person hygiene go out the window on the trail.
There's a term for this... something like trail sense, or trail hygiene and
it's part of a larger issue of how hikers behave and act differently after
they've been on the trail for days or weeks.  However, I don't think that we
loose any sense of societal notions... I think we GAIN a sense of societal
notions becoming more aware of them because we step seamlessly outside of
them and back again.   We gain perspective on them.

We do this most obviously when we travel in foreign places of course but
even within the same country it's possible to experience vastly different
culture.

Because I ride I'm more aware of American car culture... both the negatives
and the positives.

Because I encounter so many people from so many backgrounds and in so many
situations I'm more aware of and value more highly the 'pleasantries' of
human interaction.

Alternatively dogma, ritual and things that don't matter fall away.

It's all about changing expectations.

Some might say it's about lowering expectations, but they're not lower,
they're just different, and in many ways they're raised.

Each time we come into a town we change our expectations, each time we
change from a back road to a main road we change expectations.

These could be how we great one another, how we dress, how we deal with
motorists, pedestrians, weather, perceptions on person hygiene and
appearance.   The range is infinite.

In Mineapolis, Minnesotta an upstanding musician at the local civic / opera
center was tasered and arrested merely for riding his bike to the airport.
  There were no laws against it, but some cop had it in his mind that
cyclists didn't belong anywhere near the airport.

It's a war of cultural perceptions.

Often we ride through it with fludily.

Is it ok to walk up to someones house and use the garden hose / spigot if
they're not home?  What if you're severely dehydrated?

There's a huge host and variety of perceptions we have about of how things
should or shouldn't work.

Our ability to identify and creatively adapt / interact in these situations
is directly proportional to our enjoyment while touring.

In fact if you look at adversity as a creative challenge then it becomes an
enjoyment in itself.

One of the things I enjoy most of all is the changes... changes in weather
(rain, snow, temperature), changes in scenery, dusk/ dawn, cultural changes.

The adversity is the draw.

But back to something more concrete... i.e. the simple issue of food.


== the issue of food, specifically the stove ==

One of my favorite things to do on tour is to stop in the early evening at a
grocery store, just as I'm most hungry and thinking about stopping for the
day.

This opens up the door of possibilities for eating tremendously allowing me
to grab things I normally couldn't.

Opportunities includes things like fresh bread, fresh meats, fresh fruits...
even breakfast foods, an occasional canned good or a beer.

Grocery stores not only provide more variety then a restaurant, but also at
a tiny fraction of what it costs to eat at a restaurant.

What's more I could generally eat at least twice what a normal restaurant
deems a healthy portion when touring.

To accommodate opportune grocery stores I always like to make sure I can
accommodate an extra 20 or 30% more goods on my touring bike if only
temporarily / for a few miles.

I usually eat like a horse at dinner*... sleep on it.... get rolling as
early as possible in the morning without eating... and then stop as
opportunity allows for some sort of quick breakfast or lunch... most often
at a restaurant / fast food, but sometimes I just stop and prepare what I'm
carrying if there's no restaurant along the way that suits my fancy.

*I should say I eat like a horse all the time but specifically so at dinner
since I have the evening and night to digest it.  When you travel like a
horse... you eat like a horse. :)

Because of this opportunistic approach to food I only carry basic food
staples... ramen, grits, creame-of-wheat, rice, mac and cheese, packets of
chicken noodle cup of soup... that sort of thing.   These will get me by for
a day or two if need be, but mostly they're just reserves.

The food staples are for sustenance what a multi-tool is for mechanical
work. The staples are in essence a set of multi-use tools which can be
combined with other opportunistic food items along the way.

A good example of this is mac and cheese or ramen. You can always use the
cheese from the mac and cheese at some other time on something else... same
thing with the ramen seasoning. The noodles can then be made with just about
anything.


== Packing without racks ===

I find the similarities and differences between your gear and my gear most
interesting.

As they say the devil is in the details and there are to many details so
I'll just start with the basics.

I just posted on my latest ultralight touring setup here.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/3656893283/

The basic similarities/ differences are pretty obvious when you compare the
picture of your setup with mine.

I need to remember to lay out my gear on a sheet or something and photograph
it in its totality.

Much of my basic packing inspiration comes from here:
http://www.epicdesignsalaska.com/

Erik's bag designs best summarize the "rackless" touring.

The keys are

1) Handlebar bag / bedroll

2) seat bag / super twinkie (basically a well mounted stuffable bag behind
the seat)

3) a frame bag for the main frame triangle

There is also what's known as a "gas tank", aka. bento bag or stem bag. This
is a bag that goes on top of the top tube and is braced up against the
handlebar stem. Likewise some people use a bag that sits on top of the top
tube and is braced against the seatpost.

These systems have become increasingly popular for off road tourers because
quite simply... racks are both heavy, and they break to easily. Frame bags
are lighter, they don't swing around like pannier bags, they're central and
inline with the bikes center of gravity, they disperse weight throughout the
bike... and best of all... I've never heard of a frame bag failing, at least
not catastrophically.

You'll see a lot of people using frame bags in the GDT (Great Divide Tour)
that's going on right now.

Some pictures can be found if you flip through the individual blogs posts at
the following url by clicking "read more".  (Most of the posts are very long
and most of the pics are on secondary pages.)

http://tourdivide.org/racer-2009-updates/race_report



== a simple gear recommendation ==

Based on all my reading thus far I have one piece of gear I think you might
find most useful.

The Jandd top tube bag:

http://www.bikepacking.net/reviews/bikebags/jandd-frame-bag/

I cannot say enough about the utility of this bag nor it's value. It can be
had for $25-30 and will fit pretty much any bike.

Great for storing things you need throughout the day and need easy access
to.  I usually put things like food bars / munchables, wallet, camera, cell
phone, saddle cream, map, etc, etc. in it.  I have on occasion even stored
things like my fuel canister and bike pump in it... both at the same time,
and with plenty of room to spare


I find your bottle cages interesting.  I've used a Topeak Magna XL which is
very similar in the past and will probably put it back on as it gets hotter,
but I have found no others like it.  I'd be interested in at least tracking
down the manufacturer and some good pictures of the design you're using if
you can manage it.  I might like to buy a couple.

On my regular touring setup I use another bottle rack behind the seat, and I
sometimes carry a collapseable water bag for additional water in the
evenings.


Anyway, I'll likely continue to flip through your trip blogs.

Your opening blog posts about your gear setup for each trip are most
interesting.


-Mike

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 5:48 AM, musilijk <musilijk@...> wrote:

> Hi all!
>
> I'm about to start the ride Vancouver-Ottawa-NYC. I weighed my stuff, it's
> 5600 g (12.3 lb) of stuff and 15.8 kg (34.8 lb) with the bike. The setup is
> the same as here:
>
> http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=87118&v=KD
>
> just 1 kg lighter. Since then I dropped 1 kg of stuff mostly in lighter
> sleeping bag and clothes and have a lighter rear rack.
>
> I'll start in Vancouver on monday, 29 June and will hopefully reach NYC
> around 4 August. Maybe I'll meet some of you on the road!
>
> regards,
> Igor.
>

Is your route mostly through Canada until you get to NY.

I'm in the very SE corner of Michigan. The North County Trail comes
right through my kneck of the woods.

http://www.northcountrytrail.org/

As do a couple of the major the Adventure Cycling Association routes.

http://www.adventurecycling.org/routes/RouteNetwork.pdf

-Mike


On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Iuliana and Adrian
Stingaciu<astingaciu@...> wrote:
>
>
> I'll be in NY Aug 9, sorry I won’t get to meet you.
> Maybe if you stick around longer, or get there later.
> I'll check your progress, good luck, and have a safe and fun ride.
> Adrian
>
> --- On Fri, 6/26/09, musilijk <musilijk@...> wrote:
>
> From: musilijk <musilijk@...>
> Subject: [ultralightbiking] Ultralight Across North America
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, June 26, 2009, 2:48 AM
>
> Hi all!
>
> I'm about to start the ride Vancouver-Ottawa- NYC. I weighed my stuff, it's
> 5600 g (12.3 lb) of stuff and 15.8 kg (34.8 lb) with the bike. The setup is
> the same as here:
>
> http://www.crazyguy onabike.com/ doc/page/ ?o=3Tzut& page_id=87118& v=KD
>
> just 1 kg lighter. Since then I dropped 1 kg of stuff mostly in lighter
> sleeping bag and clothes and have a lighter rear rack.
>
> I'll start in Vancouver on monday, 29 June and will hopefully reach NYC
> around 4 August. Maybe I'll meet some of you on the road!
>
> regards,
> Igor.
>
>
>
>
>

Hi all!

I'm about to start the ride Vancouver-Ottawa-NYC. I weighed my stuff, it's 5600
g (12.3 lb) of stuff and 15.8 kg (34.8 lb) with the bike. The setup is the same
as here:

http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?o=3Tzut&page_id=87118&v=KD

just 1 kg lighter. Since then I dropped 1 kg of stuff mostly in lighter sleeping
bag and clothes and have a lighter rear rack.

I'll start in Vancouver on monday, 29 June and will hopefully reach NYC around 4
August. Maybe I'll meet some of you on the road!

regards,
Igor.

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 12:52 PM, Iuliana and Adrian
Stingaciu<astingaciu@...> wrote:
>
>
> Mike,
> That's pretty good. Is that for everything carryied and worn?

The weight doesn't include gear worn, just gear packed.

What I wore is included on my gear list.

136 lumen / 6 volt / 4AA / River Rock headlamp (on helmet)
Louis Garneu helmet
bike shirt
multi-panel bike shorts
smart wool socks
Lake 165 bike shoes

That's it. I don't like packs, too hot. Even my wallet, cell phone are
stored on the bike and included in the weight since weighing the full
bike was the last thing I did before I left.

the complete gear list is here:
http://mmeiser.com/blog/2009/06/touring-at-34lbs.html

> Sounds to me like you are planning something BIG !!!

Nope... I'm just screwing around. Pointless fun. :)

But seriously... I have nothing planned. Not the racing type, don't
even have any big tours planned. I'm sure I'll get a couple big tours
in at some point this summer or fall, did the Allegheny Passage from
DC to Pitts earlier this spring, but nothing is on the calender save
attempting the TransIowa again next spring.

Last year I had a goal of doing one 100 miler a week. Well exceeded
with a bunch of 140's, and a few around 200, such as a one day ride
across Michigan with a friend.

This year I have intend to top it with an average of one overnighter a week.

The one overnighter a week poses a dilemma... I actually don't get as
much mileage for the time. I'm constantly trying to find the right mix
between getting in the miles and enjoying myself.

One of the things I've cut out was the morning breakfast ritual... to
slow. I can get riding an average of two hours earlier if I just role
out of bed and jump on the bike. More importantly early morning is the
best time of the day to be riding. But I do like to stop alot, talk to
people, follow my nose down interesting roads... and the flexibility
to abandon pre-planned routes if I'm not enjoying them.

The end result ends up being some passive / aggressive riding.  Riding
hard in between frequent stop and impromptu conversations and sight
seeing.

> Are you related to Joe Meiser?

I know of know such person. ;)

Just kidding, he's my little bro.

Peace,

-Mike

> Adrian
>
> --- On Tue, 6/23/09, Ken Skier <kenskier@...> wrote:
>
> From: Ken Skier <kenskier@...>
> Subject: Re: [ultralightbiking] Digest Number 443
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, June 23, 2009, 3:55 AM
>
> Mike--
> Sounds like a terrific setup!  Looking forward to your photos!
> ---Ken
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 5:20 AM, <ultralightbiking@ yahoogroups. com> wrote:
>>
>> UltralightBiking
>>
>> Messages In This Digest (1 Message)
>>
>> 1. 34lb ultra-light touring setup From: Mike Meiser
>> View All Topics | Create New Topic
>>
>> Message
>>
>> 1.
>>
>> 34lb ultra-light touring setup
>>
>> Posted by: "Mike Meiser" groups-yahoo- com@mmeiser. com   mmeiser8
>>
>> Mon Jun 22, 2009 7:24 pm (PDT)
>>
>> So,
>>
>> I got a new (slightly used) bike a few weeks back, a Salsa Campeon
>> with full ultegra components, albeit slightly older. I just rebuilt
>> the rear wheel with a Mavic Open Pro so I decided to take it out for a
>> multi-day tour.
>>
>> I used no racks.
>>
>> - one Jandd top tube bag (below the top tube)
>>
>> - one Epic Designs gas tank (above the top tube)
>>
>> - one 5 liter sea-to-summit dry bag as an impromptu super twinkie
>> (behind the seat)
>>
>> - one standard stuff sack which I hung from my handlebars and squeezed
>> in between my handlebar drops.
>>
>> Imagine my surprise when I weighed the whole setup and it weighed in
>> at only 34 lbs.
>>
>> The least I've ever gotten my Surly Crosscheck (with my standard
>> touring setup) down to was about 55lbs.
>>
>> I haven't broken it all down, but this does included absolutely
>> everything from a cook kit w/ stove, fuel, water, sleeping bag, pad,
>> bivouac, clothes, right down to my house keys, wallet and cell phone.
>>
>> I can say the bike itself is about 19.5 lbs of it.
>>
>> You'll have to pardon my not having posted pictures yet, basically
>> just got in the door. Will post soon.
>>
>> Left last night around 8pm, got back at 8pm today. Did about 140
>> miles. 40 yesterday evening / 100 today.
>>
>> All I can say is touring this way could definitely get addictive. The
>> bike is quick.
>>
>> It's not just the weight it's the tire size and weight of the tires
>> and rims. Basically it's extremely responsive, twitchy even, and
>> climbs like the devil.
>>
>> It's remarkable.
>>
>> Will try to post some pics soon.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>> Back to top
>> Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
>> Messages in this topic (1)
>> Recent Activity
>>
>>  1
>> New Members
>>
>> Visit Your Group
>> Yahoo! News
>> Odd News
>> You won't believe
>> it, but it's true
>> Yahoo! Finance
>> It's Now Personal
>> Guides, news,
>> advice & more.
>> Share Photos
>> Put your favorite
>> photos and
>> more online.
>> Need to Reply?
>> Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in the
>> Daily Digest.
>> Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
>> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar
>> MARKETPLACE
>> You have 1 New Message: Someone Challenges your IQ!.
>> ________________________________
>> How Many Triangles? 92.6% of Americans Fail this Question!.
>> ________________________________
>> Mom Power: Discover the community of moms doing more for their families,
>> for the world and for each other
>> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
>> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch format
>> to Traditional
>> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
>
>
>
>

Here it is.

Pictures and pretty much complete gear list.

http://mmeiser.com/blog/2009/06/touring-at-34lbs.html

Direct link to the photo in higher res:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2/3656893283/sizes/l/


This is the first time I've posted my entire gear list anywhere,
pardon if there are any errors. It's always changing.


Notes...

Pardon the slight bit of wordiness. :)


First, handling...  This thing climbed like a devil compared to my
standard touring setup (a surly cross check). This is do a combination
of not only overall bike weight and thinner tires, but most
importantly the combined spinning weight of the tire and rim.

There was no side to side bobbing when climbing out of the saddle, nor
whippyness.  This is simply do the minimal weight.

My bivy roll did impede my knee space a little.

When I was powering up a bit of a hill the rear wheel actually felt
like it was shimmying, but it was really just the power of my stroke
transferring throughout the frame and was visible in the slight side
to side movement of the front tire. The rear tire was just following
suit. It's a great feeling to feel that road bike acceleration with
each stroke in a touring setup.  With no gear at all I generally
describe the feeling (particularly on 23mm tires) like riding on
rails, albiet rubberized rails.

The setup didn't affect the bike at speed at all, nor did it add much wind drag.

Overall it was actually a very practical setup and I will most likely
use it again soon.



Details...

I only was out for about 24 hours, but this included more then enough
gear for multi-day touring.

I included a rain jacket. The bivy roll + tarp combo is very
practical. I also had my cook kit, stove and fuel.

I actually ended up sleeping ON the sleeping bag in the bivy, using
the bivy as a sort of sheet/bug barrier. I was very pleased, but we'll
see how this works as the weather gets even warmer.

I may try dropping the Exped Airmat in future, not because it's bulky
but just because it's a pain to blow up / expell air from and I'm not
sure I actually need it. I just need to pick my bedding down spots
carefully.

Basically I spread the bivy out on the tarp, but I could just as
easily put the tarp over a line on my bike or a tree to protect myself
from rain.

Most interestingly the only thing I used my Trangia alcohol stove for
was to kick start a fire (one of the things I like about it). I didn't
really make any food since I was out for less then 24 hours. I'd eaten
dinner the night before I left and stopped at McDonalds for some quick
and cheap calories in the morning.



Potential improvements.

I may in the future leave the whole cook kit out on these 24 hour
jaunts.  Leaving out the food, fuel, stove and cook stuff would drop
me another three or so pounds. Though I'd probably carry some more
energy bars and other supplements in their place.

The only thing I really missed was my camera.

fuel bottle....  when I do carry my cook kit I need to find a way to
mount my fuel bottle on the frame of the bike. I definitely do not
like having it in my top tube bag, it wastes space, could leak, could
even catch fire.  Since i only have two mounts (need for water) I may
end up cutting some sort of rubber/foam spacer for between the bottle
and the frame and just velcroing it to my down tube. Since I only use
my fuel in the evening it doesn't need to be as accessible as my water
bottles, nor am I worried about dirt.

tire pump... Likewise I carried my Topeak Road Morph bike pump in my
top tube bag, hence wasting more space. I have a mount that fits right
under water bottle cage, it's just on my standard touring bike (the
sulry cross check). I love the pump so much I may end up just buying
another one so I don't have to switch the mount. I hadn't already put
the mount on because I usually use CO2 cartridges with the Salsa since
it's normally used as a purely recreational bike. CO2 is a dead end
though for touring.

Fenders... There's absolutely no room for full fenders on this bike.
It can actually only handle a 25mm contiental through the seat stays.
(BTW, a 25mm Conti is probably a 23mm in any other brand.) However I
don't think there's a need for fenders on this setup save some sort of
SKS brand, minimalist seat tube mounted fender to keep spray off my
back/shorts. Indeed if the seat bag stuck out a little further I
wouldn't even worry about fenders at all.

Seat bag / super twinky...  I was surprised at how well the
sea-to-summit dry bag worked as a seat bag / super twinky. I'm not in
any immediate need for a super twinky but none the less they are
perhaps one of the most brilliant lightweight storage solutions. I've
dug around online and I'm amazed that they've not gone mainstream...
especially since they can pretty much fit on any bike universally.
(Hint. Hint. Manufacturers.)

The only people I know of making them are Epic Designs in Alaska and
Carousel frame bag makers.  These guys both make superb bags, but I
dare say at present I can't afford to drop the many hundreds of
dollars I would love to on a main frame bag / handlebar bag / twinkie
combo.  So... I'll just bide my time until I can afford the whole
setup.

Seat... the seat I'm using is an Ideale leather competition saddle
from the 70's/80s. They were the main competitor to brooks in europe
before they went bust.  Great saddle.  It's perfect for the 100 mile
or less recreational rides. However for multi-day riding I think in
the long term I need to find a brooks or or even find some "modern"
lightweight thingy. :)   The problem I have with the modern saddles is
that as much as I ride by the time I break them in there's already
worn out.   It's sort of the same problem I have with shoes... and
pedals... and tires (except continentals)... and hubs... and rims...
and... lol.  Honestly, I'm not that bad. :)

fastening... I also need more velcro straps. Velcro straps rule.
Lighter and easier to use then traditional web belts.  I used about
six velcro straps and then two nylon web straps to hold the handlebar
bag on the handlebars. Web straps are just a pain by comparison.  I
just need a couple longer velcro straps. REI is the ONLY place I know
to get them.

bivy roll... I think I need a compression sack. Just used a standard
stuff sack due not having the right size compression strap. One of the
problems I found is I'm really working with limited space around the
handlebars to avoid compressing cables which would cause improper
braking or shifting, particularly when turning the handlebars.  This
was a minor issue, but a compression sack would certainly resolve it.
There's also a need to preserve space around the handlebars and drops
so you can take advantage of all the handlebar hand positions.
Indeed I found that it works best not only to strap the bedroll to the
handlebar top by the stem, but also to use the straps on the end of
the stuff sack to the very ends of the handlebar drops. This prevents
the bedroll from rocking backward into the front brake cable / head
tube... or from side to side.   BTW, I'm sure all these issue have
also been well resolved by Epic Designs and Carousel Designs handlebar
bags. One day I'll get to ordering from them.

BTW, many people use an aero bar to offer more bedroll support and
I've not necessarily ruled out doing this. However STI shifters I
think would come right through the middle of any space created by the
aero bars.


One last thing I like about this setup.

Since there's no bolt ons I can completely go from touring mode back
to purely recreational (go fast) riding just by unvelcroing the four
bags and putting back on my seat wedge.  There's no "cruft" to this
setup whatsoever.



A word about night biking.

I love biking in the evening. The best time is when the sun is
actually just down and the sky is lit up and full of color. At this
point I'm just using my bike lights for being seen, but my headlamp
lights up animal eyes and reflective markers and signs.  Best time to
ride... besides just before sunup.

I love night biking but it's harder to find good places to camp when
you're riding after dark. I'm trying to become more of a very early
morning (pre-sunup) rider so I can still enjoy my night riding.  This
has many advantages.

1) riding when it's cooler in the morning

2) riding when there's less traffic in the morning

3) stopping early enough that I can potentially gain permission to
camp on private land (i.e take moral high ground) instead of stealth
camping

4) roll out of bed and wake up on the bike... stopping only after I've
been on the road for a couple hours.

One last thing about the bivy roll combination. It just rolls right
up. Camp tear-down takes only a couple minutes.

Peace,

-Mike

On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 4:50 AM, j.a. tackett<conifir1@...> wrote:
>
>
> damn!    please post the pictures.....
> i get my bicycle back today.....with new wheels.....mtx`s wheels   new
> delore hubs.....
> with new avid bb7`s disks....and new tires....
>
> man did you get your weight down....big time!
>
> --- On Mon, 6/22/09, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:
>
> From: Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
> Subject: [ultralightbiking] 34lb ultra-light touring setup
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, June 22, 2009, 8:06 PM
>
> So,
>
> I got a new (slightly used) bike a few weeks back, a Salsa Campeon
> with full ultegra components, albeit slightly older. I just rebuilt
> the rear wheel with a Mavic Open Pro so I decided to take it out for a
> multi-day tour.
>
> I used no racks.
>
> - one Jandd top tube bag (below the top tube)
>
> - one Epic Designs gas tank (above the top tube)
>
> - one 5 liter sea-to-summit dry bag as an impromptu super twinkie
> (behind the seat)
>
> - one standard stuff sack which I hung from my handlebars and squeezed
> in between my handlebar drops.
>
> Imagine my surprise when I weighed the whole setup and it weighed in
> at only 34 lbs.
>
> The least I've ever gotten my Surly Crosscheck (with my standard
> touring setup) down to was about 55lbs.
>
> I haven't broken it all down, but this does included absolutely
> everything from a cook kit w/ stove, fuel, water, sleeping bag, pad,
> bivouac, clothes, right down to my house keys, wallet and cell phone.
>
> I can say the bike itself is about 19.5 lbs of it.
>
> You'll have to pardon my not having posted pictures yet, basically
> just got in the door. Will post soon.
>
> Left last night around 8pm, got back at 8pm today. Did about 140
> miles. 40 yesterday evening / 100 today.
>
> All I can say is touring this way could definitely get addictive. The
> bike is quick.
>
> It's not just the weight it's the tire size and weight of the tires
> and rims.  Basically it's extremely responsive, twitchy even, and
> climbs like the devil.
>
> It's remarkable.
>
> Will try to post some pics soon.
>
> -Mike
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Be sure to let us know what you think of the bb7's. I'd love to here
your first impressions and long term report.

BTW, does anyone here belong to: http://www.backpackgeartest.org/

Best user gear review site around.

It's backpacking, not bike specific though, so you won't find bb7 reviews.

For bike specific stuff I use mtbr.com  but I'm anxious to know if
anyone has found anything better.

-Mike

On Fri, Jun 19, 2009 at 4:47 PM, conifir1<conifir1@...> wrote:
> well i did it....
> got new wheels made
> and dropped my "v" brakes for some "avid bb7`s"
> when i bought my trek fuel 80 back in fall of 2002 i had just enough for the
bike but not enough for the disk brake system....
> and since i am setting my self up for ultra light packs ....and in a few
seasons i want to hit the open road/trails i have been dreaming about always
wanting to up grade to disks...
> a little pricey....but in the long run i know it was right....
> even the wheels, spokes and hubs i went heavy built with mtx wheels and delore
hubs...
> i get my bike back from the shop in a few days.....
> and it is killing me.....
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

So,

I got a new (slightly used) bike a few weeks back, a Salsa Campeon
with full ultegra components, albeit slightly older. I just rebuilt
the rear wheel with a Mavic Open Pro so I decided to take it out for a
multi-day tour.

I used no racks.

- one Jandd top tube bag (below the top tube)

- one Epic Designs gas tank (above the top tube)

- one 5 liter sea-to-summit dry bag as an impromptu super twinkie
(behind the seat)

- one standard stuff sack which I hung from my handlebars and squeezed
in between my handlebar drops.

Imagine my surprise when I weighed the whole setup and it weighed in
at only 34 lbs.

The least I've ever gotten my Surly Crosscheck (with my standard
touring setup) down to was about 55lbs.

I haven't broken it all down, but this does included absolutely
everything from a cook kit w/ stove, fuel, water, sleeping bag, pad,
bivouac, clothes, right down to my house keys, wallet and cell phone.

I can say the bike itself is about 19.5 lbs of it.

You'll have to pardon my not having posted pictures yet, basically
just got in the door. Will post soon.

Left last night around 8pm, got back at 8pm today. Did about 140
miles. 40 yesterday evening / 100 today.

All I can say is touring this way could definitely get addictive. The
bike is quick.

It's not just the weight it's the tire size and weight of the tires
and rims.  Basically it's extremely responsive, twitchy even, and
climbs like the devil.

It's remarkable.

Will try to post some pics soon.

-Mike

well i did it....
got new wheels made
and dropped my "v" brakes for some "avid bb7`s"
when i bought my trek fuel 80 back in fall of 2002 i had just enough for the
bike but not enough for the disk brake system....
and since i am setting my self up for ultra light packs ....and in a few seasons
i want to hit the open road/trails i have been dreaming about always wanting to
up grade to disks...
a little pricey....but in the long run i know it was right....
even the wheels, spokes and hubs i went heavy built with mtx wheels and delore
hubs...
i get my bike back from the shop in a few days.....
and it is killing me.....

About the discs, I'm by no means a disc brake expert, I don't even
know that I'd make a recommendation. Just tell you what I've
experienced as a builder, mechanic and what I like.

First, I love the Avid BB mechanical... in many ways they've set the
market with their low price and reliability.

They're highly adjustable and easy to work on.

Time was when I wouldn't have recommended a mechanical disc, the Avid
BB series changed that.

The Juicy are OK, but make sure you get the kind that are fully adjustable.

Working on some of the higher end disc brakes is a huge pain in the
but. You'd have to either take your bike to your local mechanic or
become an expert in disc truing... and in my opinion it's a lot
tougher and more frustrating then truing wheels. It takes a lot of
experience to get good at it.

The thing I notice is the higher end hydraulic in general have tighter
tolerances around the disc. Fractions of a millimeter.  This makes it
much harder to true the rotor to keep it from rubbing. Rubbing rotors
suck... and rotors will rub if they get a little dirt / mud in them as
they will mountain biking.

The Avid BB mechanical have much more clearance through.  They strike
me as something I could work on trail side or road side if I had a
problem. They're definitely what I'd go for with back road touring.
Sooner or later I'm going to order a Salsa Fargo with them.

Then there's the issue of cleaning the pads. Often they have to be
heated up or "burned" to remove oils and residue. You don't want to be
getting oil on your pads the stopping power decreases significantly
and they can screech horribly.

In summary... disc brakes have obvious advantages (better modulation
and consistency wet or dry) if you go with a disc brake specific rim
(stronger/lighter). This reduction of weight on the outside of the
wheel makes a big difference to performance.

Disc brakes should theoretically be lower maintenance and mostly they
are, but most of the higher end ones can only be maintained by an
experienced mechanic and require special tools... bleeding kits /
fluid, rotor truing tool, sometimes special torx or other tools, a
propane torch.

At the very least you should think of this as an investment... not
just a product. You'll want to over time cultivate another set of
skills and gather another set of skills.  They're definitely the
future but they're no silver bullet.

Anyway, that's what I like about the Avid BB mechanical... they
require no specialty tools and are easy to work on. A great place to
start.

That said... I don't think I'd recommend the Avid BB for your Trek
Fuel... It's to high end a bike.

I'd recommend talking to your local shop, possibly a good Avid Juicy,
the adjustable kind, and accepting that you'll have to spend some
occasional money to have your bike taken in and serviced by a mechanic
who's very skilled in disc brake maintenance. It'll be well worth the
money.

It'll also be well worth it to as time and your patience, time,
necessity allows acquire an occasional tool and cultivate a new
skill... to start with a rotor truing tool.  Take it slow, one skill
at a time and leave the complete overhauling, the brake pad
replacement, any bleeding up to your local for a while.

Anyway, that's my general sort of advice... I don't know your
mechanical experience level nor how you ride.

-Mike

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 3:12 PM, j.a. tackett <conifir1@...> wrote:
> why not check out campmors down bags....
> they have a 20 degree bag that weighs in at 2.8 lbs
> stuffs down to 6inches x 11 inches
> this bag is a full zipper
> opens up like a blanket...
>
> on another subject
> and maybe you might have some insight
> i have a trek fuel
> with "v" brakes
> planning to up grade to disks
> there are so many different wheels out there on the market
> you have any idea on which manufacture to go with
> i have seen the price range from $1,600.00 per set
> why beyond my price range
> but i have seen others down as low as $150.00 per set...
> so any feed back would be great...
>
> good luck on finding that "right" sleeping bag....
> it took me over a year and 3 different bags  to make up my mind on the bag i
bought from campmor...
>
> --- On Fri, 5/22/09, gregbach <gregbach@...> wrote:
>
> From: gregbach <gregbach@...>
> Subject: [ultralightbiking] Re: ultralightweight summer sleeping bags
> To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 8:50 AM
>
> --- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
wrote:
>>
>> Howdy All,
>>
>> I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
>> conversation.
>>
>> I have a good question.
>>
>> I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.
>>
>> Looking for something around 40 degrees.
>>
>> Weight is important... but for me compactness is possibly even more
>> important.  The theory being the only thing worse then weight when off
>> road or backroad touring is bulk which flops around causing handling
>> issues and stress on racks or the frame.
>>
>> Basically I'm trying to get all my everyday touring gear down to
>> simple frame bags and loose the panniers all together.
>>
>> Right now I'm down to one pannier on a rack... but I suspect once I
>> loose my bulky syntetic zero degree bag I won't have a problem loosing
>> last pannier as well.
>>
>> Anyway, the two bags at the top of my list are
>>
>> 1) Western Mountaineering Hilight
>>
>> 2) Marmot Atom Long
>>
>> First, the some thoughts on the Western Mountaineering Hilight
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/5hmk7
>>
>> 35F / 17oz in long
>>
>> This is far and away the top pick.
>>
>>
>> Second, the Marmot Atom Long
>>
>> http://marmot.com/spring_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/atom_long
>>
>> 40F / 1lb 8oz
>>
>> It's good quality stuff, but I'm sort o indifferent to this one.
>>
>>
>> These are not cheap bags though.
>>
>> This leads me to my third option.
>>
>> When I was in Harpers Ferry, WV three weeks ago doing an early season
>> ride on the Allegheny Passage from Washington DC to Pittsburg I was
>> talking with the lovely lady at the outfitters there about what the AT
>> (Appalachian Trail) hikers were using.
>>
>> Anyway, she pointed out to me a third option I'd never even considered.
>>
>>
>>
>> 3) The Lafuma Extreme 600
>>
>> http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/767276
>>
>> 45F / 1lb 4oz
>>
>> This is a syntetic bag... it's not quite as warm as the other two..
>> but I it's definitely in the heat rang I'm looking for.
>>
>> It's actually LIGHTER then the Marmot... and only 3oz more then the
>> Western Mountaineering bag.
>>
>> The primary drawback is I suspect purely bulk... an issue I can't
>> really be sure of without going to check it out in person at REI...
>> something I'll probably do in the next day or two.
>>
>> The biggest kicker of all is it's normally about $70... but REI has it
>> on sale right now for $45!?
>>
>> Compared to the $275-280 MSRP of the two other bags this is bloody amazing.
>>
>> What's more I'm always looking for cheaper (i.e. more easily
>> replaceable) alternatives since gear is going to get lost, stolen,
>> damaged, obsoleted, etc.
>>
>> So what do you think? Is it even worth it to experiment with a
>> synthetic summer bag at $45... this is a tiny fraction of the price of
>> the Marmot and Western Mountaineering.
>>
>> The bag seems to be fairly well reviewed from what I can see too...
>> though I've just barely begun to research reviews.
>>
>> Oh... synthetic does have the advantage of performing better when damp
>> or wet too.
>>
>> -Mike
>> flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2
>> mmeiser.com/blog
>>
>
> Going to jump in here with my .02 -- look at Big Agnes bags out of Steamboat,
CO.  You may or may not agree with their philosophy, but I've had good luck with
them and they are very compact.
>
> greg
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 7:10 AM, lake_thomas <lake_thomas@...> wrote:
> There are stuff sacks with compression straps to squeeze out the remaining
bulk.  The straps mean weight, though.
>
> I bought a 45 degree bag and I cannot even use it in the summer because I
"sleep cold".  It's from Sierra Designs and weighs 29 ounces.  Want it?  I
settled on The Cat's Meow, a 20 degree bag of Primaloft from The North Face.  It
was for people under 5' 6" and is cut very snugly in the shoulders compared to
anything else I have used.  I sleep comfortably in it in 20 degree weather with
an extra layer and a hat.

I'd take you up on the offer but it sounds like there's a bit of a
height difference. :)

> I am going on my first tour next month! www.goba.com

I know of the goba. Just learned about it. I've ridden much of that
area. In fact I just road back through there from the Cuyahoga a few
weeks back. Many people I stopped to chat with mentioned some big
ride, eventually I ran into someone who was going to ride it.

BTW, used to dislike that portion of Ohio... too flat. But
interestingly the more I ride it the more i like it. There's a bunch
of bike paths that sting together nicely allow you to avoid route 20,
their roads are superbly paved (I find this of ohio in general) and
because the roads are in such great shape and so plainly laid out on a
grid you can just forget your planned route and just follow your
compass.  I particularly like the roads south of norwalk down toward
Wooster and Mansfield as things begin to roll a bit.

Interestingly I broke a derailleur cable on the way back from the
Cuyahoga and ended up doing 120 miles single speed back to
Michigan.... was absolutely superb.

Congrats on your first tour. Please let us know how it turns out. Did
the Hilly 100 a couple years back 5,750 riders... was loads of fun.
Been really wanting to do the TOSRV from Columbus down the Sciotto
river. Supposed to be a classic.

-Mike

> Tom
>>
>>
>> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Mike Meiser
>> <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:
>> > Howdy All,
>> >
>> > I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
>> > conversation.
>> >
>> > I have a good question.
>> >
>> > I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.
>> >
>> > Looking for something around 40 degrees.
>> >
>> > Weight is important... but for me compactness is possibly even more
>> > important.  The theory being the only thing worse then weight when off
>> > road or backroad touring is bulk which flops around causing handling
>> > issues and stress on racks or the frame.
>> >
>> > Basically I'm trying to get all my everyday touring gear down to
>> > simple frame bags and loose the panniers all together.
>> >
>> > Right now I'm down to one pannier on a rack... but I suspect once I
>> > loose my bulky syntetic zero degree bag I won't have a problem loosing
>> > last pannier as well.
>
>> > 3) The Lafuma Extreme 600
>> >
>> > http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/767276
>> >
>> > 45F / 1lb 4oz
>> >
>> > This is a syntetic bag... it's not quite as warm as the other two..
>> > but I it's definitely in the heat rang I'm looking for.
>> >
>> > It's actually LIGHTER then the Marmot... and only 3oz more then the
>> > Western Mountaineering bag.
>> >
>> > The primary drawback is I suspect purely bulk... an issue I can't
>> > really be sure of without going to check it out in person at REI...
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Hello Folks,

The gear discussions are great but have inspired me to reference some
links below.  I hope you find them informative or if not at least
entertaining.  Don't miss the embedded links.

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles.html     INDEX

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles/spaceblanket.html    FOIL IS
THE NEW BLACK

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles/fully_loaded.html  FULLY LOADED

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles/too_light.html  TOO LIGHT

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles/camping_weight.html
PERSPECTIVE

http://www.northroadbicycle.com/articles/tents.html TENTS


and more with links here:
http://www.northroadbicycle.com/index.php

Yours in Cycling,

Gilbert Anderson

North Road Bicycle Imports
PO Box 840
166 Court Square
Yanceyville, NC 27379
USA

Our newest direct local Yanceyville Area phone is 336-421-4054
Toll Free Research Triangle Area, NC area 919-828-8999
Toll free Nationwide 800-321-5511

email: cyclestore@... (mailbox may be full)
or
milesawhelen@...

www.northroadbicycle.com    ---->   New Website Improved Daily

There are stuff sacks with compression straps to squeeze out the remaining bulk.
The straps mean weight, though.

I bought a 45 degree bag and I cannot even use it in the summer because I "sleep
cold".  It's from Sierra Designs and weighs 29 ounces.  Want it?  I settled on
The Cat's Meow, a 20 degree bag of Primaloft from The North Face.  It was for
people under 5' 6" and is cut very snugly in the shoulders compared to anything
else I have used.  I sleep comfortably in it in 20 degree weather with an extra
layer and a hat.

I am going on my first tour next month! www.goba.com

Tom
>
>
> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 11:34 PM, Mike Meiser
> <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:
> > Howdy All,
> >
> > I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
> > conversation.
> >
> > I have a good question.
> >
> > I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.
> >
> > Looking for something around 40 degrees.
> >
> > Weight is important... but for me compactness is possibly even more
> > important.  The theory being the only thing worse then weight when off
> > road or backroad touring is bulk which flops around causing handling
> > issues and stress on racks or the frame.
> >
> > Basically I'm trying to get all my everyday touring gear down to
> > simple frame bags and loose the panniers all together.
> >
> > Right now I'm down to one pannier on a rack... but I suspect once I
> > loose my bulky syntetic zero degree bag I won't have a problem loosing
> > last pannier as well.

> > 3) The Lafuma Extreme 600
> >
> > http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/767276
> >
> > 45F / 1lb 4oz
> >
> > This is a syntetic bag... it's not quite as warm as the other two..
> > but I it's definitely in the heat rang I'm looking for.
> >
> > It's actually LIGHTER then the Marmot... and only 3oz more then the
> > Western Mountaineering bag.
> >
> > The primary drawback is I suspect purely bulk... an issue I can't
> > really be sure of without going to check it out in person at REI...

On the disc wheels...

You are correct that the sky is the limit when it comes to wheels.  If
you are looking for something durable and affordable purchase a
Shimano XT Hub laced to a good rim like a Mavic, DT, Salsa, Velocity,
etc... The wheels should be built properly.  This is first and
foremost.  Beware wheels that are great spec, but cheap prices.  Most
times these should be re-built before even riding them.

If you are looking for something more pricey...DT hubs are worth their
cost.

I would stay away from "Wheel Systems" anything that uses a
proprietary spoke that cannot be purchased at your local shop.  They
are hard to maintain and often times not nearly as durable or
serviceable as  a traditional spoked wheel.

Just a short primer, good luck in your search...

On May 22, 2009, at 2:12 PM, j.a. tackett wrote:

>
>
> why not check out campmors down bags....
> they have a 20 degree bag that weighs in at 2.8 lbs
> stuffs down to 6inches x 11 inches
> this bag is a full zipper
> opens up like a blanket...
>
> on another subject
> and maybe you might have some insight
> i have a trek fuel
> with "v" brakes
> planning to up grade to disks
> there are so many different wheels out there on the market
> you have any idea on which manufacture to go with
> i have seen the price range from $1,600.00 per set
> why beyond my price range
> but i have seen others down as low as $150.00 per set...
> so any feed back would be great...
>
> good luck on finding that "right" sleeping bag....
> it took me over a year and 3 different bags  to make up my mind on
> the bag i bought from campmor...
>

why not check out campmors down bags....
they have a 20 degree bag that weighs in at 2.8 lbs
stuffs down to 6inches x 11 inches
this bag is a full zipper 
opens up like a blanket...

on another subject
and maybe you might have some insight
i have a trek fuel
with "v" brakes
planning to up grade to disks
there are so many different wheels out there on the market
you have any idea on which manufacture to go with
i have seen the price range from $1,600.00 per set
why beyond my price range
but i have seen others down as low as $150.00 per set...
so any feed back would be great...

good luck on finding that "right" sleeping bag....
it took me over a year and 3 different bags  to make up my mind on the bag i
bought from campmor...

--- On Fri, 5/22/09, gregbach <gregbach@...> wrote:

From: gregbach <gregbach@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] Re: ultralightweight summer sleeping bags
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 8:50 AM

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
wrote:
>
> Howdy All,
>
> I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
> conversation.
>
> I have a good question.
>
> I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.
>
> Looking for something around 40 degrees.
>
> Weight is important... but for me compactness is possibly even more
> important.  The theory being the only thing worse then weight when off
> road or backroad touring is bulk which flops around causing handling
> issues and stress on racks or the frame.
>
> Basically I'm trying to get all my everyday touring gear down to
> simple frame bags and loose the panniers all together.
>
> Right now I'm down to one pannier on a rack... but I suspect once I
> loose my bulky syntetic zero degree bag I won't have a problem loosing
> last pannier as well.
>
> Anyway, the two bags at the top of my list are
>
> 1) Western Mountaineering Hilight
>
> 2) Marmot Atom Long
>
> First, the some thoughts on the Western Mountaineering Hilight
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5hmk7
>
> 35F / 17oz in long
>
> This is far and away the top pick.
>
>
> Second, the Marmot Atom Long
>
> http://marmot.com/spring_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/atom_long
>
> 40F / 1lb 8oz
>
> It's good quality stuff, but I'm sort o indifferent to this one.
>
>
> These are not cheap bags though.
>
> This leads me to my third option.
>
> When I was in Harpers Ferry, WV three weeks ago doing an early season
> ride on the Allegheny Passage from Washington DC to Pittsburg I was
> talking with the lovely lady at the outfitters there about what the AT
> (Appalachian Trail) hikers were using.
>
> Anyway, she pointed out to me a third option I'd never even considered.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lafuma Extreme 600
>
> http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/767276
>
> 45F / 1lb 4oz
>
> This is a syntetic bag... it's not quite as warm as the other two..
> but I it's definitely in the heat rang I'm looking for.
>
> It's actually LIGHTER then the Marmot... and only 3oz more then the
> Western Mountaineering bag.
>
> The primary drawback is I suspect purely bulk... an issue I can't
> really be sure of without going to check it out in person at REI...
> something I'll probably do in the next day or two.
>
> The biggest kicker of all is it's normally about $70... but REI has it
> on sale right now for $45!?
>
> Compared to the $275-280 MSRP of the two other bags this is bloody amazing.
>
> What's more I'm always looking for cheaper (i.e. more easily
> replaceable) alternatives since gear is going to get lost, stolen,
> damaged, obsoleted, etc.
>
> So what do you think? Is it even worth it to experiment with a
> synthetic summer bag at $45... this is a tiny fraction of the price of
> the Marmot and Western Mountaineering.
>
> The bag seems to be fairly well reviewed from what I can see too...
> though I've just barely begun to research reviews.
>
> Oh... synthetic does have the advantage of performing better when damp
> or wet too.
>
> -Mike
> flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2
> mmeiser.com/blog
>

Going to jump in here with my .02 -- look at Big Agnes bags out of Steamboat,
CO.  You may or may not agree with their philosophy, but I've had good luck with
them and they are very compact.

greg

--- In ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
wrote:
>
> Howdy All,
>
> I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
> conversation.
>
> I have a good question.
>
> I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.
>
> Looking for something around 40 degrees.
>
> Weight is important... but for me compactness is possibly even more
> important.  The theory being the only thing worse then weight when off
> road or backroad touring is bulk which flops around causing handling
> issues and stress on racks or the frame.
>
> Basically I'm trying to get all my everyday touring gear down to
> simple frame bags and loose the panniers all together.
>
> Right now I'm down to one pannier on a rack... but I suspect once I
> loose my bulky syntetic zero degree bag I won't have a problem loosing
> last pannier as well.
>
> Anyway, the two bags at the top of my list are
>
> 1) Western Mountaineering Hilight
>
> 2) Marmot Atom Long
>
> First, the some thoughts on the Western Mountaineering Hilight
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5hmk7
>
> 35F / 17oz in long
>
> This is far and away the top pick.
>
>
> Second, the Marmot Atom Long
>
> http://marmot.com/spring_2009/equipment/sleeping_bags/ultralight/atom_long
>
> 40F / 1lb 8oz
>
> It's good quality stuff, but I'm sort o indifferent to this one.
>
>
> These are not cheap bags though.
>
> This leads me to my third option.
>
> When I was in Harpers Ferry, WV three weeks ago doing an early season
> ride on the Allegheny Passage from Washington DC to Pittsburg I was
> talking with the lovely lady at the outfitters there about what the AT
> (Appalachian Trail) hikers were using.
>
> Anyway, she pointed out to me a third option I'd never even considered.
>
>
>
> 3) The Lafuma Extreme 600
>
> http://www.rei.com/outlet/product/767276
>
> 45F / 1lb 4oz
>
> This is a syntetic bag... it's not quite as warm as the other two..
> but I it's definitely in the heat rang I'm looking for.
>
> It's actually LIGHTER then the Marmot... and only 3oz more then the
> Western Mountaineering bag.
>
> The primary drawback is I suspect purely bulk... an issue I can't
> really be sure of without going to check it out in person at REI...
> something I'll probably do in the next day or two.
>
> The biggest kicker of all is it's normally about $70... but REI has it
> on sale right now for $45!?
>
> Compared to the $275-280 MSRP of the two other bags this is bloody amazing.
>
> What's more I'm always looking for cheaper (i.e. more easily
> replaceable) alternatives since gear is going to get lost, stolen,
> damaged, obsoleted, etc.
>
> So what do you think? Is it even worth it to experiment with a
> synthetic summer bag at $45... this is a tiny fraction of the price of
> the Marmot and Western Mountaineering.
>
> The bag seems to be fairly well reviewed from what I can see too...
> though I've just barely begun to research reviews.
>
> Oh... synthetic does have the advantage of performing better when damp
> or wet too.
>
> -Mike
> flickr.com/photos/mmeiser2
> mmeiser.com/blog
>

Going to jump in here with my .02 -- look at Big Agnes bags out of Steamboat,
CO.  You may or may not agree with their philosophy, but I've had good luck with
them and they are very compact.

greg

Mike.....check out campmor`s 20 degree down bag.....it packs down really
small....
my reason for going with this bag.....
the bag opens up like a blanket...
and on those warm nights anything that opens is a god send....
i am also using a henensey 4 season super shelter hammock...
so being off the ground will make it a little cooler
good luck on your search...
i went through 3 different bags ...
and drove 3 different outlets nuts with my returns...

--- On Mon, 5/18/09, Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...> wrote:

From: Mike Meiser <groups-yahoo-com@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] ultralightweight summer sleeping bags
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, May 18, 2009, 9:34 PM

Howdy All,

I haven't recieved any emails from this list in a while. I miss the
conversation.

I have a good question.

I'm just about to buy an ultralightweight summer bag.

Looking for something around 40 degrees.
...

i picked up from campmor a 20 degree down bag @ 2lbs 8 oz�� this was last
summer cost 130.00��� opens up like a blanket
compresses down to the size of my henensey hammock 4 season super shelter
just thought i share the info

--- On Tue, 5/19/09, craig eckhoff <craigeckhoff@...> wrote:

From: craig eckhoff <craigeckhoff@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] ultralightweight summer bags
To: ultralightbiking@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, May 19, 2009, 7:30 AM
























I think any 32 rated mummy bag is a 3 season bag. Mine came from a big box
sporting goods store. $30 off season. I use a nylon rainfly for an additional 10
degrees or so. Weighs about 3 lbs total. A compression bag fit about the size of
a�basket ball.
�
Pedal plenty
Craig�

I field tested a tent that used the bicycle wheels as the frame. This
was about 30 years ago and found it not very workable. I don't think it was
ever made or at least not sold in any numbers.
     One of the biggest down sides was the loss of use of the bike once the
wheels were removed to support the tent. Also, a bicycle frame without
wheels is rather unwieldy. I also found that packing and hauling tent poles
to be far less of a problem than removing and replacing both wheels.

Jim Foreman

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Greiner" <casey51234@...>
Subject: [ultralightbiking] Re: Bike touring specific tents


Mike-

I like the idea of using the bike as structure for the tent also. The
disadvantage of not being able to use the bike while pitched could be
minimal, just design the tent so that the bike can come out and collapse
over your gear. I think the Topeak is a start in the right direction, if you
use the bike as poles it won't be free-standing anyway. The disadvantage of
the Topeak is that the bike isn't out of the weather and doesn't take
advantage of gaining interior volume you could have with the frame sideways.
With frame sizes varying so much, however, it would take a custom unit to
work well with the frame and front wheel (inside the tent) acting as all
structure. That is where the commercial success is probably stymied, with a
small market and the big price tag of custom one-offs. I think DIY ends up
being best in this case.

Tim Greiner

Mike-

I like the idea of using the bike as structure for the tent also. The
disadvantage of not being able to use the bike while pitched could be minimal,
just design the tent so that the bike can come out and collapse over your gear.
I think the Topeak is a start in the right direction, if you use the bike as
poles it won't be free-standing anyway. The disadvantage of the Topeak is that
the bike isn't out of the weather and doesn't take advantage of gaining interior
volume you could have with the frame sideways. With frame sizes varying so much,
however, it would take a custom unit to work well with the frame and front wheel
(inside the tent) acting as all structure. That is where the commercial success
is probably stymied, with a small market and the big price tag of custom
one-offs. I think DIY ends up being best in this case.

Tim Greiner

--- Mike Meiser wrote:
>
> Sent this last night also, but I sent it from the wrong address so
> yahoo bounced it. Here it is again.
>
> I figured while I was at it I mine as well go all out.
>
>
> There was some talk on here a bit back about the Mountain Hardware Ghisallo 1.
>
> http://www.mountainhardwear.com/Product.aspx?cat=1644&prod=3409
>
> It's a tent meant to house a person and a bike.
>
> In other words perhaps on of the first bicycle touring specific tents.
>
> What I don't get is .
>
> a) At 4lbs 2oz it's not very light
>
> b) it doesn't actually use the bike as a structural element... it
> simply has more pole and is bigger to house the bike like a tent with
> a garage.
>
>
> Despite the Ghisallos apparent failings and unless I'm overlooking
> something obvious then it occurs to me that tents that use the bike as
> the main structural element might well be the future of ultralight
> weight tents made specifically for bike touring.
>
> It's a niche market... but it's very well defined (bike yes/bike no)
> and and there are huge weight and size advantages to using a bike as a
> structural element.
>
> It occurs to me that a tent of this sort might well because of it's
> uniqueness and inherent advantages at least garnish a look from pretty
> much any bike touring person buying a tent. Given there's nothing else
> out there even a small percentage of converts might quickly ad up.
>
> == Advantages ==
>
> 1) weight/bulk savings... save on poles... no need to find improvised
> poles in tundra / desert / prairie either
>
> 2) protects the bike from the weather
>
> 3) protect the gear without removing it from the bike
>
> 4) by leaving the gear on the bike and having it at least under the
> vestibule you gain easy rain free access.... like having a shelving
> unit in your tent
>
> 5) security... it's much harder to steal a bike in the night without
> getting caught when it's the central support of the tent
>
>
> == Disadvantages ==
>
> 1) flexibility of use... could you use the tent without a bike? i.e.
> alternate poles or pole extensions?
>
> 2) supporting the bike... though the bike would support the tent the
> tent design would somehow have to support the side to side weight of
> the bike... thus it might have to be staked down or may otherwise not
> be freestanding?
>
> 3) universality bike interface...  though most have a standard top
> tube or at least the same general seat and handlebar points bike
> designs and sizes do vary tremendously. To build a somewhat universal
> bike tent could pose some challenges.
>
>
> == Design issues ==
>
> There's a lot of single and double wall designs these days, but
> mostly they boiled down to hoops, or straight pole type.
>
> I can say it would make little sense to enclose the bike fully in net
> or completely enclosed rain proof enclosure. For one a bike is already
> fairly weather proof. Secondly it will undoubtedly pick up a lot of
> dirt and grim if not straight up mud.
>
> The most obvious design that comes to mind would be to use the bike to
> support the vestibule area.
>
> Given that there's two basic vestibule tent designs (1) vestibule at
> the end and (2) vestibule at the side I think
>
> ... ehh... scratch that way of thinking... you can't always
> rationalize the design process.
>
>
> Basically in brainstorming the easiest idea I can think of would be to
> have the bike support one end of the vestibule and the tent.
>
> One of what I think is the coolest ideas would be to take one of the
> ultralight weight dome type tents like the Big Agness Fly Creek design
> (http://www.bigagnes.com/Products/Detail/Tent/FlyCreekUL1)  and
> significantly reduce the poles my making them connect to the top of
> the standard bike frame top tube.
>
> You could either use the bike as the side of the tent and ark the
> poles off the side of the frame like a lean two design... but with the
> pole ark providing for tremendous headroom improvement.
>
> Alternatively you could use the bike at the end of the tent.
>
> The tension from the open side of the tent to the stakes on the back
> of the tent would provide the tension to keep the bike from falling
> away from the tent. Meanwhile two stakes and lines on the other side
> of the bike would keep the bike from falling toward the tent.
>
> Either way this design would allow an increase in size and height of
> the internal space with less pole and/or the possible extension of a
> vestibule area.
>
> If done right I picture a large vestibule between the main body of the
> tent and the bicycle with room to exit from the vestibule toward the
> front or back of the bike.
>
>
>
> == has someone done this? ==
>
> This is actually the first question I usually ask. But I've placed it
> last because unless I've overlooked something the answer is simply
> flat out NO.
>
> The Mountain Hardware design fails to take advantage of most of the
> would be advantages I've mentioned here.
>
> Not having used one, but based purely on specifications such as weight
> and packing bulk it's hard to say it lives up to the potential.
>
> There's also a Topeak Bikamper:
>
> http://www.topeak.com/products/Bike-Tent/Bikamper
>
> Though it does use the bike as a structural element it's a tiny tent
> with a max headroom space of only about two feet. Hardly what I'd
> consider ideal though some may beg to differ.
>
> As for other designs... I've seen nothing.
>
> Am wondering if anyone has used the Mountain Hardware, Topeak or seen
> any other designs?
>
>
> I must also ask...
>
> Why hasn't someone done this?
>
> Unless I've overlooked some major disadvantage the only reason I can
> come up with is... it's a market niche no one has yet thought to
> explore... in which case... I'm sure 50 different people at 50
> different companies are probably working on it right now.  (I don't
> believe in the singularity... just simultaneous spontaneity of ideas
> and products.... i.e. great minds think a like. :)
>
> -Mike
>