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Hello everyone......

Interbasket Bandwidth is exceeded and Stuart is still in Europe.  I
think it is because of all the visitors to IBN looking at the "Manu
in a Cowboy Hat" pictures at the beginning of the month.  They used
up our bandwidth and now we still have 4 days of July left.  :(((((

Well, I guess we will have to use IBN chat and this old forum until
either Matt figures out how to get IBN back up or until Stuart
returns.  That rat!

CFFI

I am trying to remember the little things I used to put on the ends
of my posts here.  Too long ago for my old brain to remember, I guess.

Sabonis JEGA!!!!!

I get all messages to my mail from this group and I
check this mail often, so... Im here :)

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html

There are a good 242 members!! I hope that those of you who don't
know about <http://www.interbasket.net> will go there and sign up.
There are some great discussions about Sabas and all your favorite
international players and teams.

Matt

I can enter the site, but for me is unnusual so many years without news from
anybody.
Where're the people?

Mayte
   ----- Original Message -----
   From: crazyfanfromidaho
   To: thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2003 10:19 PM
   Subject: [The Sabas Network] Is Interbasket having technical difficulties????


   I'm having trouble getting into Interbasket.  Is it just me?  Or are
   others having trouble also????

   Thanks!!
   CFFI

   Sabonis--Currently #1 in EL for Efficiency, Rebounds, and Blocks.
   Sabonis JEGA FOREVER!!!!!!!

   Go Zalgiris!
   Beat Maccabi!!!!



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm having trouble getting into Interbasket.  Is it just me?  Or are
others having trouble also????

Thanks!!
CFFI

Sabonis--Currently #1 in EL for Efficiency, Rebounds, and Blocks.
Sabonis JEGA FOREVER!!!!!!!

Go Zalgiris!
Beat Maccabi!!!!

Oleg, I'm very glad you contact with us, and tell us what you think. Of course,
we've to understand that everyone of us are human. And it's impossible that
we've always the chance to make ours best. For me, SABONIS, is showing us daily
he's a great player, but a GREAT, GREAT MAN. He has had the most sucessful
career that everybody wishes, but he's specially having the best end of career
that we'd never dream. I've no words for this.
Well, as you said, probably he was having troubles, and in that moment he didn't
call you back. Anyway I hope things are now better for you. I hope your father
is well. I remember him very well, always was a great fan of him (last month I
was rewatching a game with him, a great player). And as Matt has told you, join
us in interbasket.net. I suppose you'll like to read about your father, your
country players... etc. We are waiting for you. You've to tell us a lot of
things about your father, and about that marvellous USSR team that you knew very
well.

Mayte

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: oleg1583
   To: thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 12:48 AM
   Subject: Re: [The Sabas Network] Odd Question


   Very interesting I might say.  I mean, it's quite exciting to find
   someone writing about Sabonis, and my father... Vladimir Tkachenko,
   though periodically described as a monster.  They were good
   friends.  They really were, spending time together and becoming the
   spectacle of sports press.  But I have a little personal problem
   with Sabonis.  I want you to understand that I condemn no one, just
   wanted to bring forth the reality of how money degrades
   relationships (at least that's what it seems to be doing).  This
   friendship with Sabonis proved itself empty when it came to me.  I
   was a foolish kid who got in trouble for breaking and entering when
   i was 18... a young, foolish youth.  My father was unable to supply
   finances to get a good lawyer.  I was charged, so I called my
   father - he was unable to provide funds.  It's quite fascinating to
   see a professional basketball player, like my father, come to
   poverty in USSR after he's no longer able to phisically play due to
   some back injuries (he was invited to play in NBA but refused,
   remaining 'loyal' to communist USSR - a decision that could be
   easily regretful now - though my father is happy and holds no
   regrets).  So my father called Sabonis, they caught up with each
   other... everything was wonderful - he was going to help me.  Well,
   weeks go by and he ignores my phone calls.  I call again and again,
   his assistant calls me back, saying that he will help me soon.  It
   never happened; I had to rely on people from church to help me.
   That they did.  Sabonis disapointed me and I let my father know,
   years later.  My father said that Sabonis was having problems with
   his wife.  I forgive Sabonis, I just wish that personal career would
   not get in the way of valuable relationship my family and his used
   to have.
   Oleg Vladimirovich Tkachenko



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oleg,

Thank you for taking time to write to us! I think that your
experience is very interesting. I'm glad that you recognize that what
Sabonis did was not a "personal thing." I don't think Sabonis would
intentionally hurt anybody. He was a very charitable man. I imagine
that he was having trouble during that time and perhaps your
situation slipped from his mind. I think this is very likely what
happened. From what I know, your father and Sabonis were good
friends, so I'm sure that Sabonis would never intentionally ignore
your family.

Oleg, people still have great respect for your father. In fact, we
were discussing him at <http://www.interbasket.net>, in
the "International Basketball Discussion" forum. Various Europeans
who watched him play were telling us about him and the fantastic
things that he did. Please sign up at this new forum, and read what
some people are saying about him. Many people are still infatuated
with him and give him great respect.

Matt Blair
<http://www.interbasket.net/>

Very interesting I might say.  I mean, it's quite exciting to find
someone writing about Sabonis, and my father... Vladimir Tkachenko,
though periodically described as a monster.  They were good
friends.  They really were, spending time together and becoming the
spectacle of sports press.  But I have a little personal problem
with Sabonis.  I want you to understand that I condemn no one, just
wanted to bring forth the reality of how money degrades
relationships (at least that's what it seems to be doing).  This
friendship with Sabonis proved itself empty when it came to me.  I
was a foolish kid who got in trouble for breaking and entering when
i was 18... a young, foolish youth.  My father was unable to supply
finances to get a good lawyer.  I was charged, so I called my
father - he was unable to provide funds.  It's quite fascinating to
see a professional basketball player, like my father, come to
poverty in USSR after he's no longer able to phisically play due to
some back injuries (he was invited to play in NBA but refused,
remaining 'loyal' to communist USSR - a decision that could be
easily regretful now - though my father is happy and holds no
regrets).  So my father called Sabonis, they caught up with each
other... everything was wonderful - he was going to help me.  Well,
weeks go by and he ignores my phone calls.  I call again and again,
his assistant calls me back, saying that he will help me soon.  It
never happened; I had to rely on people from church to help me.
That they did.  Sabonis disapointed me and I let my father know,
years later.  My father said that Sabonis was having problems with
his wife.  I forgive Sabonis, I just wish that personal career would
not get in the way of valuable relationship my family and his used
to have.
Oleg Vladimirovich Tkachenko

Some 3-1/2 years ago or so, Young Sabas---who used to be a regular in
this community---and I made a little friendly wager, so to speak.

I said "No way would Sabonis have enough left in the tank to play a
last season in Lithuania."

He said "I don't see why not. He said he would."

I said that if/when Sabonis ever played his first game back with
Zalgiris I would post a thread telling everyone that Young Sabas was
right and I was wrong.

Well today Sabonis played his first game back. Here's the brief
description and a few post-game pics from the Interbasket Sabonis
Forum courtesy of joker:

quote:
Today is a historical day for Lithuania - Sabas made his debut in
LKL, against Alita. 26 min, 16 pts, 15 rebs, 2 as, 5 bl. and Zalgiris
won 63:92. I can't describe the game in details because of a lot of
beer Tomorrow Zalgiris plays in Kaunas against Nevezis (last place in
LKL last season). All tickets were sold out on thursday.

Here are some photos made after the game (I could't get close to the
court during the game because of the security guards). Children ant
journalists atacked him when he went to the exit. The last photo is
with some fans from Kaunas.

http://zalgiris.addr.com/Sabonis/12.jpg
http://zalgiris.addr.com/Sabonis/13.jpg
http://zalgiris.addr.com/Sabonis/14.jpg
http://zalgiris.addr.com/Sabonis/15.jpg
http://zalgiris.addr.com/Sabonis/16.jpg



Thanks much to joker!!!!!

Sooooooooo.......

Even though Young Sabas isn't with our community anymore, here is my
post.....as promised.

Young Sabas, I miss you. You were right. I was wrong. I hope you see
one of these posts on the 5 or so message boards that I will post
this on.

Young Sabas JEGA!!!!!!!
Sabonis JEGA FOREVER!!!!!!!!!

Boris, what interesting message with such interesting comments.

I tell you again, thanks for joining us

Mayte


----- Original Message -----
From: "Boris Kamban" <smokovci4@...>
To: <thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2003 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [The Sabas Network] Re: Congratulations, Lithuania!


Man,
you can write!  I thought it was me...

For one, I wouldn't want this forum to get away from who it's all about --
Arvydas!

  Serbian basketball forums.  There are plenty, but I'd have to look up for a
one where you can get a meaningful discussion going... The ones that are
popular are visited by ALL and that includes all the narrow-minded morons.

So some food for the thoughts...

http://www.belgrade2005.com/eng/  Belgrade 2005

www.kkpartizan.co.yu   Partizan's Basketball Outlet (it's also famous for
soccer, waterpolo and volleyball) -- the team where Divac, Djordjevic,
Danilovic and such started.



So in a nutshell...

1.  Serbian team's prospects in the future -- those poor guys Bogavac,
Avdalovic... you heard about them now and that's it.  Kosta Perovic, Darko
Milicic, Luka Bogdanovic, Zarko Cabarkapa, Vlad Radmanovic... I think they
have the potential of the old Yugo-Power generation -- Petrovic, Divac,
Kukoc, Radja, Djordjevic... Will they reach it, I don't know.  When a kid
doesn't want to play for his national team because he think that lifting
weights would prepare him better for the NBA, well, there's a problem, I
think... for both him and the NT.

There's a major storyy in Belgrade over "patriotism".  After winning "all
possible" (even with a shitty display in Indianapolis, they did the minimum
necessary), main guys started cancelling.  OK, I can understand Dean
Bodiroga being tired (the guy didn't stop since 1995), I can see Divac
playing for the Kings in a wheelchair soon (and smoking a pipe with
Sabas)... then Rebraca having a heart problem... but cancelations by
Radmanovic of Seattle, Cabarkapa, Milicic, Vranes, Tomasevic...  too much
for a team where Stojakovic, the guy who can shoot like crazy but can't play
a PG... well, I am in a way impressed they got this far.
Vujanic played terribly and was supposed to be new Sasha Djordjevic.
Rakocevic was kicked out of the team while coach Vujosevic (who's always
been ill-tempered) never called on Dragan Lukovski, a great player, nor any
dominant center.

No one is SUBSCRIBED to titles and next year Serbia-Montenegro will probably
bring its best.  Should they face Lithuania, it will be awesome.  I mean,
there will be much more pressure on the soft Lithuanian center-line, much
more transition and shooting... Still, Serbia will hardly have the flow that
Lithuania does and it doesn't Jasikevicius.  It does have Bodiroga (which
means "piercing horns", hmm).
I think Serbia's advantage is mainly mental as they proved to be ferocious
when on the run and with no conscience when it comes to any opponent.
Lithuania is a little shaky, which showed the 17:0 run (making 80:59 into
80:76 at one point) that, I am sure, filled the pants of many over there.

2.  Drazen never had a problem being of Serbian origin. His brother
Aleksandar had some at first.  He declared himself Croat, cut off his
friendship with Vlade (the two shared rooms for years), and all in all, it
was a sad story of the Yugo breakup.  Another case is Goran Ivanisevic in
tennis -- same spiel, Serbian dad, Croatian mother...  Now, had Croatia been
a more normal country that treated all its citizens right, Stojakovic would
today play for Croatia (he's from there), as well as several other players
(many in soccer and waterpolo as well).
There's no place on Earth that has the situation like the one between Serbs
and Croats.  I can only think of Northern Irish and Irish, but then, those
inter-married little.  Serbs and Croats did a lot... and speak the same
language and have the same "mental matrix".

Kresimir Cosic is considered legend in Serbia.  I just think we've been more
"open" to that "old Yugo" thing, as silly as it sounds.  When Drazen died,
as much as he did that "Croat" thing, all mourned... Ha ha, to prove what I
wrote above... Radivoje Korac was Serbia while Drazen Dalipagic was
half-Muslim (Dalip-Aga) half-Croat who lives in Belgrade.  Of the old
"greats", I remember Kicanovic and Slavnic.

3.  Croatian basketball.  It fell off the sky because of a terrible
organization there.  They're the same school like Serbia... Their
disadvantage is being smaller, having fewer coaches and being too
nationalistic and "closed up".  FUNNY but true, their style of play is "old
Yugoslav", decadent and with little mental discipline.  Serbs, on the other
hand, have a well-run organization, great coaches all over Europe, they keep
close ties with the NBA structures (there's talk Belgrade would have an NBA
team when it comes to Europe)...

4.  Serbian "reputation" -- I agree with you...  Flopping, bitching,
cussing... I can't stand it!  Drazen was best in doing that as he learned it
from his ass-hole brother Aleksandar (I am sure you remember his behavior
against Zalgiris and clapping while Cibona fans were insulting Zalgiris by
chanting "USA" back in the late 80's).
Flopping is not a Serb-Croat invention,it's more of a unique
Southern-European trait, so widely present in Spain, Italy, Greece...  Serbs
bring to it more spitting.
I would have kicked Gurovic out of the team for his treatment of the
opponent...

BUT it's really down to a couple of rotten apples.  Gurovic is a jerk.  But
Pedja Stojakovic, Jaric, Bodiroga and such are nice guys...
Flopping is no crime (I hate it, but it's true) while the rest is up to
coaches.  When we had gentlemen Ivkovic and Obradovic, players behaved OK.
Vujosevic himself is a nutcase, so what else can players do.


5.  European basketball.  I think that it's not doing well, to put it
simply.  It's gone all but bankrupt in Greece, attendance is down in Italy
and Spain... while most good players are still supplied from old Eastern
Europe.  Even these Euro Championships lose zeal...

I sure hope that "smart minds" of European basketball figure something out.
More regional leagues, more TV time, more "big business" involved.  As we'll
all be in the EU in the next 5-7 years, with easier exchange of goods and
people, something good may come up.  So far, the EuroLeague and ULEB are not
keeping up.


Again, I'll repeat.  My kind of guys was Marculionis.  The most under-rated
NBA player...

Cheers

-Boris

Marius Nevedomskas <zversa@...> wrote:
Hi, Boris!

Nice to see you discussing here on this forum.

If you know some English (or, for that matter, Serbian-) speaking
forums discussing Yugoslavian basketball matters, please let us know
-- I've been looking for such stuff for some time, but only could find
some crumbs with very little discussion ...

BK> Sorry, I don't pay much attention to Junior championships --
BK> even though I know that this Lithuanian squad plays since
BK> the junior days and their flow of the game is phenomenal.
BK> When I talk about "continuity", well, "continuity" for me
BK> is the Marčulionis-Sabonis-Homičus-Kurtinaitis generation.
BK> All they achieved with the USSR and Lithuania, now, that
BK> was something. The Karnisovas generation was flaky -- a
BK> matter of fact, nothing else. And since 2000, this is the
BK> first and by far the greatest Lithuanian moment. Three
BK> years is a long time in basketball and one from
BK> outside wondered what the hell was happening.

Yeah, this continuity question and Lithuanian basketball being "a
little thin" on times is true.

We came back in 1992 for Barcelona Olympics -- bronze medals. Atlanta
1996 -- bronze, Sydney 2000 -- bronze. But there are quite some gaps
in between there. 1993 Eurobasket -- a fiasco, we didn't even qualify,
losing in qualification games. Hence, no World Championship 1994.

Eurobasket 1997 -- that was a close affair. The new generation had
taken over (Atlanta 1996 was mainly the old guys, Sabas, Marciulionis,
Kurtinaitis playing last time together; Chomicius retired after
Eurobasket 1995). We barely scraped to win a place in World
Championship 1998 in Greece. Nothing special there.

Eurobasket 1999 -- new generation + Sabonis, high expectations. Losing
to Spain of Herreros and Duenas in quarterfinal by 2 points, but still
managing to qualify for Sydney 2000 Olympics.

After succesfull Sydney 2000, there was Turkey 2001, and again -- no
ticket to World Championship 2002.

It's actually "two years", when you wondered "what the hell was
happening" :) -- 2001 and 2002. The whole cycle is tied to
Eurobaskets, you fail once, and then another year is lost. Like it'll
be for France, Russia, Croatia, Turkey concerning Athens 2004
Olympics.

My take of the situation for the near future would be optimistic --
with caution, of course. This transition from the generation of
"basketball gods" (Sabas, Marciulionis) to a "more earthly" team was
sometimes painful, but our basketball somehow survived and there is
some gas for the future. Look what happened with the Croatians after
1995! Pure misery after Radja, Kukoc, Petrovic left the NT!

Our NT's most vulnerable spot was, of course, the front line, the big
guys. I feel happy that no one managed to exploit that potential
weakness to its most -- although we were running into big trouble with
the Serbs, and also to some extent with the Germans at the end of the
game (but then, they were already too far behind). Yeah, our roster
was unbalanced in this respect.

But then, when I look at the prospects, it seems pretty OK. In the
World Junior Men's Championship in Greece this summer (guys born 1984
or later), Lithuania took silver medals. And that team was
particularly unbalanced the other way around! The main job was done by
the big guys under the basket -- PFs and Cs (Linas Kleiza, Paulius
Jankunas, Darius Silinskis). There is this pool of talent, it just has
to be used properly. Then Robertas Javtokas (if his recovery after
that motor-byke accident is successful), then maybe Zydrunas Ilgauskas
if he wants to play for the NT.

The smaller guys, like SGs / SFs were our main force, and there are
promising young guys in our national league coming up.

For the near foreseeable future, our NT roster should look OK on all
positions, with sufficient cover, except for PG. We have no one to sub
for Sarunas Jasikevicius -- in this Eurobasket, we played with one PG
only. At other times, we used the ideology of former Zalgiris and NT
coach Vladas Garastas -- "to hell with all PGs!". Someone can dribble
over the half-court line, and then everybody starts to pass around the
perimetre. But this is only a make-shift solution, and we really need
someone young coming up through the ranks of the NT. Young Giedrius
Gustas from "Zalgiris" and Tomas Delininkaitis from "Lietuvos Rytas"
are probably the ones to watch, but it's not guaranteed they can cut
it.

BTW, Boris, what do you think about the prospects of your guys which
made into the NT roster in this Eurobasket, but were not so very
impressive: Bogavac, Vukcevic, Avdalovic, Perovic (OK, he's too
young)? I was expecting somewhat more threat from the depth of the
Yugo bench, even without the likes of Cabarkapa or Milicic.

BK> I thought that Lithuania had the best team in 1995. For one, it
BK> brought geniuses of the game, the ones who deserved to win a gold
BK> for Lithuania, after winning all possible for the USSR. The
BK> team was well trained and played together for a long time. Serbs
BK> though came out of 4 years of isolation, didn't play together...
BK> What can I say -- I think you were driven much more by emotion.
BK> Lithuania played consistently, Sarunas was out of this world --
BK> what a great player -- but Djordjević hit 9/12 three-pointers,
BK> Danilović dunked over Sabas and I think there was a lot of
BK> frustration and expectation with an "outgoing" Lithuanian
BK> generation.

We've had some discussion over here with Lithuanian fans, comparing
Lithuanian NT-95 to NT-03.

Of course, NT-95 is legendary with some phenomenal players. And
Yugoslavia of 95 was a hell of a team, real basketball machine to
beat. Somehow I couldn't see such awesome opposing teams in this
Eurobasket-2003. Too many good players!

C position -- of course, NT-95 was much stronger here. E.Zukauskas and
K.Lavrinovicius would be really struggling to get into the NT at all
in ideal circumstances.

About Marciulionis -- I'm not sure. Of course, he was great. But he
was forced to play in an unusual position (PG -- because no one other
could do it half-decently, Chomicius was already too old for that
role). Great leader of the team, etc. -- but we didn't have real good
orchestrator. Which we did in 2003 with another Saras -- Jasikevicius.
It's too difficult to decide about them, both MVPs of those respective
tournaments, both contributing crucially to the game. Different roles,
different styles ... Can't say ...

Karnisovas was amazing during his short-lived career, playing on the
top of Europe and all. But then I'm looking at Siskauskas -- versatile
player who can do so many things on the court -- and I'm not sure
about this position as well. I mean, comparing these particular teams,
not the overall achievements in basketball.

Concerning shooters ... We had very nice perimeter shooter this year
in Eurobasket, and Arvydas Macijauskas, of course, finally made it on
the international stage. It's still premature to compare him to Rimas
Kurtinaitis, but hey -- I don't complain about the present situation.
In 1995, Rimas was already a veteran and not the same as in 1985
(although he provided some sweet moments for us next year in Atlanta
1996). But anyway, Macijauskas of 2003 fares better, IMHO, than
Kurtinaitis of 2003.

Backup under the basket -- PFs. This position has been traditionally
"nothing special" in our basketball. We would use guys like Gintaras
Krapikas or Arunas Visockas to do that dirty job on the pitch, and
they never were outstanding. Then, of course, there was Gintaras
Einikis, C - PF, different type of player who could score from
mid-range -- on the whole, his contribution was substantial, although
not at its peak in 1995 specifically. Compared to what we've got now
-- Darius Songaila who performed and Virginijus Praskevicius who
didn't -- I'd rather take the present NT.

The big problem back in 1995 was, of course, the bench. This year, we
had 9-10 people involved in this victory (Praskevicius would be this
half-man, maybe). The roster of 1995 was more uneven, and the leaders
had to play longer minutes with no decent substitutes on the bench.

BK> To blame it on the referees, well, if you live in America, it doesn't
BK> stand. And many outsiders commented the refs were
BK> fair. The fact that "Greek brothers" were pissed is that they're a
BK> nation whose media tells them that Boris Stanković and FIBA won't
BK> let their short nation be No.1 in the world when "everyone
BK> knows" they're best... Nobody hates like brothers do and thus the
BK> entire arena rooted not for Lietuva, but against Serbia.

I'm not going for conspiracy theories, etc., but the refereeing in the
final was poor, in my opinion. One of the poorest refereeing
performances that I've seen -- and such bad calls would be coming in
crunch moments.

The Lithuanians got the worse of it in that case. And of course, they
over-reacted much more (although the Yugos also got a technical -- in
the first half -- for arguing with the ref; but they were then really
calm in the second).

Divac's 5th foul was undeserved -- there was a scrimmage under the
Yugo basket after our attack, and Vlade was jumping for the ball with
all the others; I saw that from different angles, no real contact which
would qualify for a foul.

Afterwards, Sabas was unstoppable under the baskets. Poor Zeljko
Rebraca was totally battered by Sabas (remember his 2 fouls during the
same attack by the Liths) -- so Divac' fouling out was a bonus for us
from the referee.

But then -- Sabas' fouling out, IMHO, was an even bigger bonus for the
Yugoslavians. He got his 4th foul as a technical -- he got fouled when
attacking the basket, this fould wasn't called, and Sabas was too
emotional -- again! He had to be very careful from then on -- which he
was. But then he got his 5th foul on offence -- which was a total
laugh.

On the whole, the refereeing was too inconsistent -- sometimes letting
them play in a harder way, sometimes blowing fouls for a slightest of
contact.

Saulius Stombergas getting an offensive foul against Zoran Savic
(after which the whole Lithuanian NT left the pitch) -- yes, that was
a foul (maybe -- a non-foul, if you're letting the guys play more
aggressively). Savic exaggerated, of course, by falling down like cut
by a bullet, though the contact was not that big -- but that's not so
relevant. But anyway, one cannot be unhappy with that particular decision.

BK> And I am afraid that emotion led to some irrational vibe towards
BK> the Serbs which surprises people here as we very much respect and
BK> like Lithuania. I really think it's unjustified. The fact we
BK> have so many great players, more then 400 playing outside Serbia
BK> and more than 40 coaches around Europe -- it can only be commendable --
BK> not something to despise.

The coaches are especially what impresses me. You can have good and
even great players in foreign leagues, but to have coaches -- that's
quite another level of acceptance. Just imagine if some European
coaches would break into the NBA stronghold ... I'm not sure how the
Yugoslavian gaffers started to be invited and accepted in Western
Europe, but that must have been something.

Concerning this thing of "liking" or "despising" the other team ...
Well, to some extent it's natural rivalry (man, there've even been
guys here who think that Latvian basketball players are almost like
mortal enemies!). I mean, the Yugoslavian team is always the one that
we ESPECIALLY want to beat, and the victory is so much sweeter, than
against Spain, Croatia, or whatever (well, Russia is also a special
rival due to historical reasons, and let's see how we fare with
Latvia, he he!). But yeah, it goes way over the limit in many cases
here, you're right. Also, the perceived reputation of the Yugoslavian
players doesn't help either (that they'll use any measures imaginable
to win the game, resorting to diving, cheating, etc. -- but now, as
we've got Macijauskas, we shouln't complain about that anymore, just
ask Gasol!).

BK> Like I said, Serbia never haid players like Sabonis and Marczčulionis.
BK> Drazen Petrović was a Serb playing for Croatia, so I wouldn't count
BK> him in. But we had talent spread around better. Thus
BK> 11 players in the NBA today. My humble opinion.

BTW, didn't it (being of Serbian origin) cause any problems for the Petrovic
brothers to operate in Croation basketball?

And speaking about the greats ... Not sure about such names as Radivoje
Korac or Drazen Dalipagic -- at least from what I've heard they were
something special. Of course, also Kresimir Cosic, but then he was a
Croatian.

BK> And I think we'll always be European top and still so small, that
BK> RESPECT is the least we can give each other. Man, I live in Portland,
BK> and I still had hard time explaining some Americans that
BK> Sabas ain't "Russian". You come to Belgrade, and they'd kiss his
BK> and Marčulionis' feet.

He he, hope I can make it to Beograd to witness Eurobasket-2005, and
I'll wear our NT jersey with SABONIS on it. :)

Linkejimai,
Marius



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> If you know some English (or, for that matter, Serbian-) speaking
> forums discussing Yugoslavian basketball matters, please let us know
> -- I've been looking for such stuff for some time, but only could
find
> some crumbs with very little discussion ...


ahem.... commercial break.

Welcome Boris,

my name is Stuart and I am the owner of this group.  I enjoyed
reading your unique point of view on Sabas and Lithuania.  Let me
invite you to another forum, one dedicated to international
basketball (including YU and LITH) and was spawned from this group:

http://www.InterBasket.net

At the very least, check it out.  I hope to see you (and anyone else
that hasn't joined) there with your quality posts.

Stuart

and who told you that i don't respect sebian people and players? i respect them
very much as very strong and talant members of the great basketball school, in
fact i have friends in serbia (in summer 2002 i visited serbia, spent 10 days
and have very good memories from that time, i met a lot of perfect people, we
had very nice and interesting discussion about a lot of things and basketball
to.
and about emotions in EC95... we were looking that game a lot of time after
emotions were gone, but it is obvious that black judge did a lot of wrong
decidions in the end of game, we were wining till last few minutes till that
conflict (no matter Djordjevic threepointers), when judge start doing
noncenses...
and more :))) you remember how Danilovic dunked over Sabonis, i remember how
Sabonis dunked over Rebraca :))) Danilovic did that dunk course Sabonis had many
fouls and he tried to provocize foul in atack :)))


>Hey,
>you may be right after all.
>
>Sorry, I don't pay much attention to Junior championships -- even though I know
that this Lithuanian squad plays since the junior days and their flow of the
game is phenomenal.  When I talk about "continuity", well, "continuity" for me
is the Marčulionis-Sabonis-Homičus-Kurtinaitis generation.  All they achieved
with the USSR and Lithuania, now, that was something.  The Karnišovas generation
was flaky -- a matter of fact, nothing else.  And since 2000, this is the first
and by far the greatest Lithuanian moment.  Three years is a long time in
basketball and one from outside wondered what the hell was happening.
>
>I thought that Lithuania had the best team in 1995.  For one, it brought
geniuses of the game, the ones who deserved to win a gold for Lithuania, after
winning all possible for the USSR.  The team was well trained and played
together for a long time.  Serbs though came out of 4 years of isolation, didn't
play together...  What can I say -- I think you were driven much more by
emotion.  Lithuania played consistently, Šarunas was out of this world -- what a
great player -- but Djordjević hit 9/12 three-pointers, Danilović dunked over
Sabas and I think there was a lot of frustration and expectation with an
"outgoing" Lithuanian generation.  To blame it on the referees, well, if you
live in America, it doesn't stand.  And many outsiders commented the refs were
fair.  The fact that "Greek brothers" were pissed is that they're a nation whose
media tells them that Boris Stanković and FIBA won't let their short nation be
No.1 in the world when "everyone knows" they're best... Nobody
   hates
> like brothers do and thus the entire arena rooted not for Lietuva, but against
Serbia.
>
>And I am afraid that emotion led to some irrational vibe towards the Serbs
which surprises people here as we very much respect and like Lithuania.  I
really think it's unjustified.  The fact we have so many great players, more
then 400 playing outside Serbia and more than 40 coaches around Europe -- it can
only be commendable -- not something to despise.
>
>Like I said, Serbia never haid players like Sabonis and Marcžčulionis.  Dražen
Petrović was a Serb playing for Croatia, so I wouldn't count him in.  But we had
talent spread around better.  Thus 11 players in the NBA today.  My humble
opinion.
>
>And I think we'll always be European top and still so small, that RESPECT is
the least we can give each other.  Man, I live in Portland, and I still had hard
time explaining some Americans that Sabas ain't "Russian".  You come to
Belgrade, and they'd kiss his and Marčulionis' feet.
>
>
>Pozdrav,
>Boris
>
>
>
>numerum stultorum <kacas@...> wrote:
>boris you said true about a lot of things, but to say that lithuanian team has
small continuity when our junior won silver in world champioship...
>when in last 10 year Lithuania won 3 olimpic bronze medal, europian silver
(sory, but i think that we can proud that silver more then you gold in that
european championship) and now gold...
>tradition and continuity are very strong in our basketball.
>
>>I watched the game.
>>Lithuanians played excellent team-game with Jasikevicius as the
>>leader. One could see they were mentally ready to "avenge" their
>>ancestors who played for the USSR and those who did little in the
>>1990s.
>>
>>But Spaniards sucked too. Except for the Gasol-Navarro duo, the rest
>>of the team did little.
>>
>>Lithuania is a very good team, but it has its soft spots.
>>Lithuanians have had very little "continuity" with their national
>>team and has won very few consecutive medals.
>>
>>The fact remains that Lithuanian basketball is very distinct and very
>>visible on the European map. I personally don't think it will be as
>>successful as Serbian -- my subjective opinion, of course -- I base
>>it on the fact that Serbia has 9 million people and a great
>>basketball organization with many more basketball teams and more
>>money invested in the game. That alone is not enough, but the
>>constant talent-stream since the 1960s proves there's "some true" to
>>it.
>>But, I may be wrong.
>>
>>This gold is by all means deserved. IT would be pitty had they lost,
>>especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
>>NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>>
>>-Boris
>>
>>
>>--- In thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com, crazyfanfromidaho
>> wrote:
>>> What a hard-fought game!
>>>
>>> Live stats stalled out for about 8 minutes or so, but came back in
>>> during OT so I got to follow the finish.
>>>
>>> I guess Lithuanian BB isn't dead, after all.... :D
>>>
>>> LNT JEGA!!!!!!!
>>>
>>> CFFI
>>>
>>> Go Lithuania!!!!!!!!
>>
>>
>>
>>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>thesabasnetwork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>
>>
>>
>>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
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           DELFI Webmail pađto sistema [ http://webmail.delfi.lt/ ]

Man,
you can write!  I thought it was me...

For one, I wouldn't want this forum to get away from who it's all about --
Arvydas!

  Serbian basketball forums.  There are plenty, but I'd have to look up for a one
where you can get a meaningful discussion going... The ones that are popular are
visited by ALL and that includes all the narrow-minded morons.

So some food for the thoughts...

http://www.belgrade2005.com/eng/  Belgrade 2005

www.kkpartizan.co.yu   Partizan's Basketball Outlet (it's also famous for
soccer, waterpolo and volleyball) -- the team where Divac, Djordjevic, Danilovic
and such started.



So in a nutshell...

1.  Serbian team's prospects in the future -- those poor guys Bogavac,
Avdalovic... you heard about them now and that's it.  Kosta Perovic, Darko
Milicic, Luka Bogdanovic, Zarko Cabarkapa, Vlad Radmanovic... I think they have
the potential of the old Yugo-Power generation -- Petrovic, Divac, Kukoc, Radja,
Djordjevic... Will they reach it, I don't know.  When a kid doesn't want to play
for his national team because he think that lifting weights would prepare him
better for the NBA, well, there's a problem, I think... for both him and the NT.

There's a major storyy in Belgrade over "patriotism".  After winning "all
possible" (even with a shitty display in Indianapolis, they did the minimum
necessary), main guys started cancelling.  OK, I can understand Dean Bodiroga
being tired (the guy didn't stop since 1995), I can see Divac playing for the
Kings in a wheelchair soon (and smoking a pipe with Sabas)... then Rebraca
having a heart problem... but cancelations by Radmanovic of Seattle, Cabarkapa,
Milicic, Vranes, Tomasevic...  too much for a team where Stojakovic, the guy who
can shoot like crazy but can't play a PG... well, I am in a way impressed they
got this far.
Vujanic played terribly and was supposed to be new Sasha Djordjevic.  Rakocevic
was kicked out of the team while coach Vujosevic (who's always been
ill-tempered) never called on Dragan Lukovski, a great player, nor any dominant
center.

No one is SUBSCRIBED to titles and next year Serbia-Montenegro will probably
bring its best.  Should they face Lithuania, it will be awesome.  I mean, there
will be much more pressure on the soft Lithuanian center-line, much more
transition and shooting... Still, Serbia will hardly have the flow that
Lithuania does and it doesn't Jasikevicius.  It does have Bodiroga (which means
"piercing horns", hmm).
I think Serbia's advantage is mainly mental as they proved to be ferocious when
on the run and with no conscience when it comes to any opponent.  Lithuania is a
little shaky, which showed the 17:0 run (making 80:59 into 80:76 at one point)
that, I am sure, filled the pants of many over there.

2.  Drazen never had a problem being of Serbian origin. His brother Aleksandar
had some at first.  He declared himself Croat, cut off his friendship with Vlade
(the two shared rooms for years), and all in all, it was a sad story of the Yugo
breakup.  Another case is Goran Ivanisevic in tennis -- same spiel, Serbian dad,
Croatian mother...  Now, had Croatia been a more normal country that treated all
its citizens right, Stojakovic would today play for Croatia (he's from there),
as well as several other players (many in soccer and waterpolo as well).
There's no place on Earth that has the situation like the one between Serbs and
Croats.  I can only think of Northern Irish and Irish, but then, those
inter-married little.  Serbs and Croats did a lot... and speak the same language
and have the same "mental matrix".

Kresimir Cosic is considered legend in Serbia.  I just think we've been more
"open" to that "old Yugo" thing, as silly as it sounds.  When Drazen died, as
much as he did that "Croat" thing, all mourned... Ha ha, to prove what I wrote
above... Radivoje Korac was Serbia while Drazen Dalipagic was half-Muslim
(Dalip-Aga) half-Croat who lives in Belgrade.  Of the old "greats", I remember
Kicanovic and Slavnic.

3.  Croatian basketball.  It fell off the sky because of a terrible organization
there.  They're the same school like Serbia... Their disadvantage is being
smaller, having fewer coaches and being too nationalistic and "closed up". 
FUNNY but true, their style of play is "old Yugoslav", decadent and with little
mental discipline.  Serbs, on the other hand, have a well-run organization,
great coaches all over Europe, they keep close ties with the NBA structures
(there's talk Belgrade would have an NBA team when it comes to Europe)...

4.  Serbian "reputation" -- I agree with you...  Flopping, bitching, cussing...
I can't stand it!  Drazen was best in doing that as he learned it from his
ass-hole brother Aleksandar (I am sure you remember his behavior against
Zalgiris and clapping while Cibona fans were insulting Zalgiris by chanting
"USA" back in the late 80's).
Flopping is not a Serb-Croat invention,it's more of a unique Southern-European
trait, so widely present in Spain, Italy, Greece...  Serbs bring to it more
spitting.
I would have kicked Gurovic out of the team for his treatment of the opponent...

BUT it's really down to a couple of rotten apples.  Gurovic is a jerk.  But
Pedja Stojakovic, Jaric, Bodiroga and such are nice guys...
Flopping is no crime (I hate it, but it's true) while the rest is up to coaches.
When we had gentlemen Ivkovic and Obradovic, players behaved OK.  Vujosevic
himself is a nutcase, so what else can players do.


5.  European basketball.  I think that it's not doing well, to put it simply. 
It's gone all but bankrupt in Greece, attendance is down in Italy and Spain...
while most good players are still supplied from old Eastern Europe.  Even these
Euro Championships lose zeal...

I sure hope that "smart minds" of European basketball figure something out. 
More regional leagues, more TV time, more "big business" involved.  As we'll all
be in the EU in the next 5-7 years, with easier exchange of goods and people,
something good may come up.  So far, the EuroLeague and ULEB are not keeping up.


Again, I'll repeat.  My kind of guys was Marculionis.  The most under-rated NBA
player...

Cheers

-Boris

Marius Nevedomskas <zversa@...> wrote:
Hi, Boris!

Nice to see you discussing here on this forum.

If you know some English (or, for that matter, Serbian-) speaking
forums discussing Yugoslavian basketball matters, please let us know
-- I've been looking for such stuff for some time, but only could find
some crumbs with very little discussion ...

BK> Sorry, I don't pay much attention to Junior championships --
BK> even though I know that this Lithuanian squad plays since
BK> the junior days and their flow of the game is phenomenal.
BK> When I talk about "continuity", well, "continuity" for me
BK> is the Marčulionis-Sabonis-Homičus-Kurtinaitis generation.
BK> All they achieved with the USSR and Lithuania, now, that
BK> was something. The Karnišovas generation was flaky -- a
BK> matter of fact, nothing else. And since 2000, this is the
BK> first and by far the greatest Lithuanian moment. Three
BK> years is a long time in basketball and one from
BK> outside wondered what the hell was happening.

Yeah, this continuity question and Lithuanian basketball being "a
little thin" on times is true.

We came back in 1992 for Barcelona Olympics -- bronze medals. Atlanta
1996 -- bronze, Sydney 2000 -- bronze. But there are quite some gaps
in between there. 1993 Eurobasket -- a fiasco, we didn't even qualify,
losing in qualification games. Hence, no World Championship 1994.

Eurobasket 1997 -- that was a close affair. The new generation had
taken over (Atlanta 1996 was mainly the old guys, Sabas, Marciulionis,
Kurtinaitis playing last time together; Chomicius retired after
Eurobasket 1995). We barely scraped to win a place in World
Championship 1998 in Greece. Nothing special there.

Eurobasket 1999 -- new generation + Sabonis, high expectations. Losing
to Spain of Herreros and Duenas in quarterfinal by 2 points, but still
managing to qualify for Sydney 2000 Olympics.

After succesfull Sydney 2000, there was Turkey 2001, and again -- no
ticket to World Championship 2002.

It's actually "two years", when you wondered "what the hell was
happening" :) -- 2001 and 2002. The whole cycle is tied to
Eurobaskets, you fail once, and then another year is lost. Like it'll
be for France, Russia, Croatia, Turkey concerning Athens 2004
Olympics.

My take of the situation for the near future would be optimistic --
with caution, of course. This transition from the generation of
"basketball gods" (Sabas, Marciulionis) to a "more earthly" team was
sometimes painful, but our basketball somehow survived and there is
some gas for the future. Look what happened with the Croatians after
1995! Pure misery after Radja, Kukoc, Petrovic left the NT!

Our NT's most vulnerable spot was, of course, the front line, the big
guys. I feel happy that no one managed to exploit that potential
weakness to its most -- although we were running into big trouble with
the Serbs, and also to some extent with the Germans at the end of the
game (but then, they were already too far behind). Yeah, our roster
was unbalanced in this respect.

But then, when I look at the prospects, it seems pretty OK. In the
World Junior Men's Championship in Greece this summer (guys born 1984
or later), Lithuania took silver medals. And that team was
particularly unbalanced the other way around! The main job was done by
the big guys under the basket -- PFs and Cs (Linas Kleiza, Paulius
Jankunas, Darius Silinskis). There is this pool of talent, it just has
to be used properly. Then Robertas Javtokas (if his recovery after
that motor-byke accident is successful), then maybe Zydrunas Ilgauskas
if he wants to play for the NT.

The smaller guys, like SGs / SFs were our main force, and there are
promising young guys in our national league coming up.

For the near foreseeable future, our NT roster should look OK on all
positions, with sufficient cover, except for PG. We have no one to sub
for Sarunas Jasikevicius -- in this Eurobasket, we played with one PG
only. At other times, we used the ideology of former Zalgiris and NT
coach Vladas Garastas -- "to hell with all PGs!". Someone can dribble
over the half-court line, and then everybody starts to pass around the
perimetre. But this is only a make-shift solution, and we really need
someone young coming up through the ranks of the NT. Young Giedrius
Gustas from "Zalgiris" and Tomas Delininkaitis from "Lietuvos Rytas"
are probably the ones to watch, but it's not guaranteed they can cut
it.

BTW, Boris, what do you think about the prospects of your guys which
made into the NT roster in this Eurobasket, but were not so very
impressive: Bogavac, Vukcevic, Avdalovic, Perovic (OK, he's too
young)? I was expecting somewhat more threat from the depth of the
Yugo bench, even without the likes of Cabarkapa or Milicic.

BK> I thought that Lithuania had the best team in 1995. For one, it
BK> brought geniuses of the game, the ones who deserved to win a gold
BK> for Lithuania, after winning all possible for the USSR. The
BK> team was well trained and played together for a long time. Serbs
BK> though came out of 4 years of isolation, didn't play together...
BK> What can I say -- I think you were driven much more by emotion.
BK> Lithuania played consistently, Šarunas was out of this world --
BK> what a great player -- but Djordjević hit 9/12 three-pointers,
BK> Danilović dunked over Sabas and I think there was a lot of
BK> frustration and expectation with an "outgoing" Lithuanian
BK> generation.

We've had some discussion over here with Lithuanian fans, comparing
Lithuanian NT-95 to NT-03.

Of course, NT-95 is legendary with some phenomenal players. And
Yugoslavia of 95 was a hell of a team, real basketball machine to
beat. Somehow I couldn't see such awesome opposing teams in this
Eurobasket-2003. Too many good players!

C position -- of course, NT-95 was much stronger here. E.Zukauskas and
K.Lavrinovicius would be really struggling to get into the NT at all
in ideal circumstances.

About Marciulionis -- I'm not sure. Of course, he was great. But he
was forced to play in an unusual position (PG -- because no one other
could do it half-decently, Chomicius was already too old for that
role). Great leader of the team, etc. -- but we didn't have real good
orchestrator. Which we did in 2003 with another Saras -- Jasikevicius.
It's too difficult to decide about them, both MVPs of those respective
tournaments, both contributing crucially to the game. Different roles,
different styles ... Can't say ...

Karnisovas was amazing during his short-lived career, playing on the
top of Europe and all. But then I'm looking at Siskauskas -- versatile
player who can do so many things on the court -- and I'm not sure
about this position as well. I mean, comparing these particular teams,
not the overall achievements in basketball.

Concerning shooters ... We had very nice perimeter shooter this year
in Eurobasket, and Arvydas Macijauskas, of course, finally made it on
the international stage. It's still premature to compare him to Rimas
Kurtinaitis, but hey -- I don't complain about the present situation.
In 1995, Rimas was already a veteran and not the same as in 1985
(although he provided some sweet moments for us next year in Atlanta
1996). But anyway, Macijauskas of 2003 fares better, IMHO, than
Kurtinaitis of 2003.

Backup under the basket -- PFs. This position has been traditionally
"nothing special" in our basketball. We would use guys like Gintaras
Krapikas or Arunas Visockas to do that dirty job on the pitch, and
they never were outstanding. Then, of course, there was Gintaras
Einikis, C - PF, different type of player who could score from
mid-range -- on the whole, his contribution was substantial, although
not at its peak in 1995 specifically. Compared to what we've got now
-- Darius Songaila who performed and Virginijus Praskevicius who
didn't -- I'd rather take the present NT.

The big problem back in 1995 was, of course, the bench. This year, we
had 9-10 people involved in this victory (Praskevicius would be this
half-man, maybe). The roster of 1995 was more uneven, and the leaders
had to play longer minutes with no decent substitutes on the bench.

BK> To blame it on the referees, well, if you live in America, it doesn't
BK> stand. And many outsiders commented the refs were
BK> fair. The fact that "Greek brothers" were pissed is that they're a
BK> nation whose media tells them that Boris Stanković and FIBA won't
BK> let their short nation be No.1 in the world when "everyone
BK> knows" they're best... Nobody hates like brothers do and thus the
BK> entire arena rooted not for Lietuva, but against Serbia.

I'm not going for conspiracy theories, etc., but the refereeing in the
final was poor, in my opinion. One of the poorest refereeing
performances that I've seen -- and such bad calls would be coming in
crunch moments.

The Lithuanians got the worse of it in that case. And of course, they
over-reacted much more (although the Yugos also got a technical -- in
the first half -- for arguing with the ref; but they were then really
calm in the second).

Divac's 5th foul was undeserved -- there was a scrimmage under the
Yugo basket after our attack, and Vlade was jumping for the ball with
all the others; I saw that from different angles, no real contact which
would qualify for a foul.

Afterwards, Sabas was unstoppable under the baskets. Poor Zeljko
Rebraca was totally battered by Sabas (remember his 2 fouls during the
same attack by the Liths) -- so Divac' fouling out was a bonus for us
from the referee.

But then -- Sabas' fouling out, IMHO, was an even bigger bonus for the
Yugoslavians. He got his 4th foul as a technical -- he got fouled when
attacking the basket, this fould wasn't called, and Sabas was too
emotional -- again! He had to be very careful from then on -- which he
was. But then he got his 5th foul on offence -- which was a total
laugh.

On the whole, the refereeing was too inconsistent -- sometimes letting
them play in a harder way, sometimes blowing fouls for a slightest of
contact.

Saulius Stombergas getting an offensive foul against Zoran Savic
(after which the whole Lithuanian NT left the pitch) -- yes, that was
a foul (maybe -- a non-foul, if you're letting the guys play more
aggressively). Savic exaggerated, of course, by falling down like cut
by a bullet, though the contact was not that big -- but that's not so
relevant. But anyway, one cannot be unhappy with that particular decision.

BK> And I am afraid that emotion led to some irrational vibe towards
BK> the Serbs which surprises people here as we very much respect and
BK> like Lithuania. I really think it's unjustified. The fact we
BK> have so many great players, more then 400 playing outside Serbia
BK> and more than 40 coaches around Europe -- it can only be commendable --
BK> not something to despise.

The coaches are especially what impresses me. You can have good and
even great players in foreign leagues, but to have coaches -- that's
quite another level of acceptance. Just imagine if some European
coaches would break into the NBA stronghold ... I'm not sure how the
Yugoslavian gaffers started to be invited and accepted in Western
Europe, but that must have been something.

Concerning this thing of "liking" or "despising" the other team ...
Well, to some extent it's natural rivalry (man, there've even been
guys here who think that Latvian basketball players are almost like
mortal enemies!). I mean, the Yugoslavian team is always the one that
we ESPECIALLY want to beat, and the victory is so much sweeter, than
against Spain, Croatia, or whatever (well, Russia is also a special
rival due to historical reasons, and let's see how we fare with
Latvia, he he!). But yeah, it goes way over the limit in many cases
here, you're right. Also, the perceived reputation of the Yugoslavian
players doesn't help either (that they'll use any measures imaginable
to win the game, resorting to diving, cheating, etc. -- but now, as
we've got Macijauskas, we shouln't complain about that anymore, just
ask Gasol!).

BK> Like I said, Serbia never haid players like Sabonis and Marcžčulionis.
BK> Dražen Petrović was a Serb playing for Croatia, so I wouldn't count
BK> him in. But we had talent spread around better. Thus
BK> 11 players in the NBA today. My humble opinion.

BTW, didn't it (being of Serbian origin) cause any problems for the Petrovic
brothers to operate in Croation basketball?

And speaking about the greats ... Not sure about such names as Radivoje
Korac or Drazen Dalipagic -- at least from what I've heard they were
something special. Of course, also Kresimir Cosic, but then he was a
Croatian.

BK> And I think we'll always be European top and still so small, that
BK> RESPECT is the least we can give each other. Man, I live in Portland,
BK> and I still had hard time explaining some Americans that
BK> Sabas ain't "Russian". You come to Belgrade, and they'd kiss his
BK> and Marčulionis' feet.

He he, hope I can make it to Beograd to witness Eurobasket-2005, and
I'll wear our NT jersey with SABONIS on it. :)

Linkejimai,
Marius



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MN> Concerning shooters ... We had very nice perimeter shooter this year
MN> in Eurobasket, and Arvydas Macijauskas, of course, finally made it on
MN> the international stage. It's still premature to compare him to Rimas
MN> Kurtinaitis, but hey -- I don't complain about the present situation.
MN> In 1995, Rimas was already a veteran and not the same as in 1985
MN> (although he provided some sweet moments for us next year in Atlanta
MN> 1996). But anyway, Macijauskas of 2003 fares better, IMHO, than
MN> Kurtinaitis of 2003.

Oh, of course I meant "Kurtinaitis of 1995".

Now Rimas is in Azerbaijan, coaching a Baku team. I'm pretty sure he
can still hit those treys. And they've got another sniper on their
roster, Darius Lukminas, who was a good shooter and very promising,
but somehow never managed to cut it in the National Team.

Hi, Boris!

Nice to see you discussing here on this forum.

If you know some English (or, for that matter, Serbian-) speaking
forums discussing Yugoslavian basketball matters, please let us know
-- I've been looking for such stuff for some time, but only could find
some crumbs with very little discussion ...

BK> Sorry, I don't pay much attention to Junior championships --
BK> even though I know that this Lithuanian squad plays since
BK> the junior days and their flow of the game is phenomenal.
BK> When I talk about "continuity", well, "continuity" for me
BK> is the Marčulionis-Sabonis-Homičus-Kurtinaitis generation.
BK> All they achieved with the USSR and Lithuania, now, that
BK> was something.  The Karnišovas generation was flaky -- a
BK> matter of fact, nothing else.  And since 2000, this is the
BK> first and by far the greatest Lithuanian moment.  Three
BK> years is a long time in basketball and one from
BK> outside wondered what the hell was happening.

Yeah, this continuity question and Lithuanian basketball being "a
little thin" on times is true.

We came back in 1992 for Barcelona Olympics -- bronze medals. Atlanta
1996 -- bronze, Sydney 2000 -- bronze. But there are quite some gaps
in between there. 1993 Eurobasket -- a fiasco, we didn't even qualify,
losing in qualification games. Hence, no World Championship 1994.

Eurobasket 1997 -- that was a close affair. The new generation had
taken over (Atlanta 1996 was mainly the old guys, Sabas, Marciulionis,
Kurtinaitis playing last time together; Chomicius retired after
Eurobasket 1995). We barely scraped to win a place in World
Championship 1998 in Greece. Nothing special there.

Eurobasket 1999 -- new generation + Sabonis, high expectations. Losing
to Spain of Herreros and Duenas in quarterfinal by 2 points, but still
managing to qualify for Sydney 2000 Olympics.

After succesfull Sydney 2000, there was Turkey 2001, and again -- no
ticket to World Championship 2002.

It's actually "two years", when you wondered "what the hell was
happening" :) -- 2001 and 2002. The whole cycle is tied to
Eurobaskets, you fail once, and then another year is lost. Like it'll
be for France, Russia, Croatia, Turkey concerning Athens 2004
Olympics.

My take of the situation for the near future would be optimistic --
with caution, of course. This transition from the generation of
"basketball gods" (Sabas, Marciulionis) to a "more earthly" team was
sometimes painful, but our basketball somehow survived and there is
some gas for the future. Look what happened with the Croatians after
1995! Pure misery after Radja, Kukoc, Petrovic left the NT!

Our NT's most vulnerable spot was, of course, the front line, the big
guys. I feel happy that no one managed to exploit that potential
weakness to its most -- although we were running into big trouble with
the Serbs, and also to some extent with the Germans at the end of the
game (but then, they were already too far behind). Yeah, our roster
was unbalanced in this respect.

But then, when I look at the prospects, it seems pretty OK. In the
World Junior Men's Championship in Greece this summer (guys born 1984
or later), Lithuania took silver medals. And that team was
particularly unbalanced the other way around! The main job was done by
the big guys under the basket -- PFs and Cs (Linas Kleiza, Paulius
Jankunas, Darius Silinskis). There is this pool of talent, it just has
to be used properly. Then Robertas Javtokas (if his recovery after
that motor-byke accident is successful), then maybe Zydrunas Ilgauskas
if he wants to play for the NT.

The smaller guys, like SGs / SFs were our main force, and there are
promising young guys in our national league coming up.

For the near foreseeable future, our NT roster should look OK on all
positions, with sufficient cover, except for PG. We have no one to sub
for Sarunas Jasikevicius -- in this Eurobasket, we played with one PG
only. At other times, we used the ideology of former Zalgiris and NT
coach Vladas Garastas -- "to hell with all PGs!". Someone can dribble
over the half-court line, and then everybody starts to pass around the
perimetre. But this is only a make-shift solution, and we really need
someone young coming up through the ranks of the NT. Young Giedrius
Gustas from "Zalgiris" and Tomas Delininkaitis from "Lietuvos Rytas"
are probably the ones to watch, but it's not guaranteed they can cut
it.

BTW, Boris, what do you think about the prospects of your guys which
made into the NT roster in this Eurobasket, but were not so very
impressive: Bogavac, Vukcevic, Avdalovic, Perovic (OK, he's too
young)? I was expecting somewhat more threat from the depth of the
Yugo bench, even without the likes of Cabarkapa or Milicic.

BK> I thought that Lithuania had the best team in 1995.  For one, it
BK> brought geniuses of the game, the ones who deserved to win a gold
BK> for Lithuania, after winning all possible for the USSR.  The
BK> team was well trained and played together for a long time.  Serbs
BK> though came out of 4 years of isolation, didn't play together...
BK> What can I say -- I think you were driven much more by emotion.
BK>  Lithuania played consistently, Šarunas was out of this world --
BK> what a great player -- but Djordjević hit 9/12 three-pointers,
BK> Danilović dunked over Sabas and I think there was a lot of
BK> frustration and expectation with an "outgoing" Lithuanian
BK> generation.

We've had some discussion over here with Lithuanian fans, comparing
Lithuanian NT-95 to NT-03.

Of course, NT-95 is legendary with some phenomenal players. And
Yugoslavia of 95 was a hell of a team, real basketball machine to
beat. Somehow I couldn't see such awesome opposing teams in this
Eurobasket-2003. Too many good players!

C position -- of course, NT-95 was much stronger here. E.Zukauskas and
K.Lavrinovicius would be really struggling to get into the NT at all
in ideal circumstances.

About Marciulionis -- I'm not sure. Of course, he was great. But he
was forced to play in an unusual position (PG -- because no one other
could do it half-decently, Chomicius was already too old for that
role). Great leader of the team, etc. -- but we didn't have real good
orchestrator. Which we did in 2003 with another Saras -- Jasikevicius.
It's too difficult to decide about them, both MVPs of those respective
tournaments, both contributing crucially to the game. Different roles,
different styles ... Can't say ...

Karnisovas was amazing during his short-lived career, playing on the
top of Europe and all. But then I'm looking at Siskauskas -- versatile
player who can do so many things on the court -- and I'm not sure
about this position as well. I mean, comparing these particular teams,
not the overall achievements in basketball.

Concerning shooters ... We had very nice perimeter shooter this year
in Eurobasket, and Arvydas Macijauskas, of course, finally made it on
the international stage. It's still premature to compare him to Rimas
Kurtinaitis, but hey -- I don't complain about the present situation.
In 1995, Rimas was already a veteran and not the same as in 1985
(although he provided some sweet moments for us next year in Atlanta
1996). But anyway, Macijauskas of 2003 fares better, IMHO, than
Kurtinaitis of 2003.

Backup under the basket -- PFs. This position has been traditionally
"nothing special" in our basketball. We would use guys like Gintaras
Krapikas or Arunas Visockas to do that dirty job on the pitch, and
they never were outstanding. Then, of course, there was Gintaras
Einikis, C - PF, different type of player who could score from
mid-range -- on the whole, his contribution was substantial, although
not at its peak in 1995 specifically. Compared to what we've got now
-- Darius Songaila who performed and Virginijus Praskevicius who
didn't -- I'd rather take the present NT.

The big problem back in 1995 was, of course, the bench. This year, we
had 9-10 people involved in this victory (Praskevicius would be this
half-man, maybe). The roster of 1995 was more uneven, and the leaders
had to play longer minutes with no decent substitutes on the bench.

BK> To blame it on the referees, well, if you live in America, it doesn't
BK> stand.  And many outsiders commented the refs were
BK> fair.  The fact that "Greek brothers" were pissed is that they're a
BK> nation whose media tells them that Boris Stanković and FIBA won't
BK> let their short nation be No.1 in the world when "everyone
BK> knows" they're best... Nobody hates like brothers do and thus the
BK> entire arena rooted not for Lietuva, but against Serbia.

I'm not going for conspiracy theories, etc., but the refereeing in the
final was poor, in my opinion. One of the poorest refereeing
performances that I've seen -- and such bad calls would be coming in
crunch moments.

The Lithuanians got the worse of it in that case. And of course, they
over-reacted much more (although the Yugos also got a technical -- in
the first half -- for arguing with the ref; but they were then really
calm in the second).

Divac's 5th foul was undeserved -- there was a scrimmage under the
Yugo basket after our attack, and Vlade was jumping for the ball with
all the others; I saw that from different angles, no real contact which
would qualify for a foul.

Afterwards, Sabas was unstoppable under the baskets. Poor Zeljko
Rebraca was totally battered by Sabas (remember his 2 fouls during the
same attack by the Liths) -- so Divac' fouling out was a bonus for us
from the referee.

But then -- Sabas' fouling out, IMHO, was an even bigger bonus for the
Yugoslavians. He got his 4th foul as a technical -- he got fouled when
attacking the basket, this fould wasn't called, and Sabas was too
emotional -- again! He had to be very careful from then on -- which he
was. But then he got his 5th foul on offence -- which was a total
laugh.

On the whole, the refereeing was too inconsistent -- sometimes letting
them play in a harder way, sometimes blowing fouls for a slightest of
contact.

Saulius Stombergas getting an offensive foul against Zoran Savic
(after which the whole Lithuanian NT left the pitch) -- yes, that was
a foul (maybe -- a non-foul, if you're letting the guys play more
aggressively). Savic exaggerated, of course, by falling down like cut
by a bullet, though the contact was not that big -- but that's not so
relevant. But anyway, one cannot be unhappy with that particular decision.

BK> And I am afraid that emotion led to some irrational vibe towards
BK> the Serbs which surprises people here as we very much respect and
BK> like Lithuania.  I really think it's unjustified.  The fact we
BK> have so many great players, more then 400 playing outside Serbia
BK> and more than 40 coaches around Europe -- it can only be commendable --
BK> not something to despise.

The coaches are especially what impresses me. You can have good and
even great players in foreign leagues, but to have coaches -- that's
quite another level of acceptance. Just imagine if some European
coaches would break into the NBA stronghold ... I'm not sure how the
Yugoslavian gaffers started to be invited and accepted in Western
Europe, but that must have been something.

Concerning this thing of "liking" or "despising" the other team ...
Well, to some extent it's natural rivalry (man, there've even been
guys here who think that Latvian basketball players are almost like
mortal enemies!). I mean, the Yugoslavian team is always the one that
we ESPECIALLY want to beat, and the victory is so much sweeter, than
against Spain, Croatia, or whatever (well, Russia is also a special
rival due to historical reasons, and let's see how we fare with
Latvia, he he!). But yeah, it goes way over the limit in many cases
here, you're right. Also, the perceived reputation of the Yugoslavian
players doesn't help either (that they'll use any measures imaginable
to win the game, resorting to diving, cheating, etc. -- but now, as
we've got Macijauskas, we shouln't complain about that anymore, just
ask Gasol!).

BK> Like I said, Serbia never haid players like Sabonis and Marcžčulionis.
BK> Dražen Petrović was a Serb playing for Croatia, so I wouldn't count
BK> him in.  But we had talent spread around better.  Thus
BK> 11 players in the NBA today.  My humble opinion.

BTW, didn't it (being of Serbian origin) cause any problems for the Petrovic
brothers to operate in Croation basketball?

And speaking about the greats ... Not sure about such names as Radivoje
Korac or Drazen Dalipagic -- at least from what I've heard they were
something special. Of course, also Kresimir Cosic, but then he was a
Croatian.

BK> And I think we'll always be European top and still so small, that
BK> RESPECT is the least we can give each other.  Man, I live in Portland,
BK> and I still had hard time explaining some Americans that
BK> Sabas ain't "Russian".  You come to Belgrade, and they'd kiss his
BK> and Marčulionis' feet.

He he, hope I can make it to Beograd to witness Eurobasket-2005, and
I'll wear our NT jersey with SABONIS on it. :)

Linkejimai,
Marius

Hey,
you may be right after all.

Sorry, I don't pay much attention to Junior championships -- even though I know
that this Lithuanian squad plays since the junior days and their flow of the
game is phenomenal.  When I talk about "continuity", well, "continuity" for me
is the Marčulionis-Sabonis-Homičus-Kurtinaitis generation.  All they achieved
with the USSR and Lithuania, now, that was something.  The Karnišovas generation
was flaky -- a matter of fact, nothing else.  And since 2000, this is the first
and by far the greatest Lithuanian moment.  Three years is a long time in
basketball and one from outside wondered what the hell was happening.

I thought that Lithuania had the best team in 1995.  For one, it brought
geniuses of the game, the ones who deserved to win a gold for Lithuania, after
winning all possible for the USSR.  The team was well trained and played
together for a long time.  Serbs though came out of 4 years of isolation, didn't
play together...  What can I say -- I think you were driven much more by
emotion.  Lithuania played consistently, Šarunas was out of this world -- what a
great player -- but Djordjević hit 9/12 three-pointers, Danilović dunked over
Sabas and I think there was a lot of frustration and expectation with an
"outgoing" Lithuanian generation.  To blame it on the referees, well, if you
live in America, it doesn't stand.  And many outsiders commented the refs were
fair.  The fact that "Greek brothers" were pissed is that they're a nation whose
media tells them that Boris Stanković and FIBA won't let their short nation be
No.1 in the world when "everyone knows" they're best... Nobody hates
  like brothers do and thus the entire arena rooted not for Lietuva, but against
Serbia.

And I am afraid that emotion led to some irrational vibe towards the Serbs which
surprises people here as we very much respect and like Lithuania.  I really
think it's unjustified.  The fact we have so many great players, more then 400
playing outside Serbia and more than 40 coaches around Europe -- it can only be
commendable -- not something to despise.

Like I said, Serbia never haid players like Sabonis and Marcžčulionis.  Dražen
Petrović was a Serb playing for Croatia, so I wouldn't count him in.  But we had
talent spread around better.  Thus 11 players in the NBA today.  My humble
opinion.

And I think we'll always be European top and still so small, that RESPECT is the
least we can give each other.  Man, I live in Portland, and I still had hard
time explaining some Americans that Sabas ain't "Russian".  You come to
Belgrade, and they'd kiss his and Marčulionis' feet.


Pozdrav,
Boris



numerum stultorum <kacas@...> wrote:
boris you said true about a lot of things, but to say that lithuanian team has
small continuity when our junior won silver in world champioship...
when in last 10 year Lithuania won 3 olimpic bronze medal, europian silver
(sory, but i think that we can proud that silver more then you gold in that
european championship) and now gold...
tradition and continuity are very strong in our basketball.

>I watched the game.
>Lithuanians played excellent team-game with Jasikevicius as the
>leader. One could see they were mentally ready to "avenge" their
>ancestors who played for the USSR and those who did little in the
>1990s.
>
>But Spaniards sucked too. Except for the Gasol-Navarro duo, the rest
>of the team did little.
>
>Lithuania is a very good team, but it has its soft spots.
>Lithuanians have had very little "continuity" with their national
>team and has won very few consecutive medals.
>
>The fact remains that Lithuanian basketball is very distinct and very
>visible on the European map. I personally don't think it will be as
>successful as Serbian -- my subjective opinion, of course -- I base
>it on the fact that Serbia has 9 million people and a great
>basketball organization with many more basketball teams and more
>money invested in the game. That alone is not enough, but the
>constant talent-stream since the 1960s proves there's "some true" to
>it.
>But, I may be wrong.
>
>This gold is by all means deserved. IT would be pitty had they lost,
>especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
>NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>
>-Boris
>
>
>--- In thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com, crazyfanfromidaho
> wrote:
>> What a hard-fought game!
>>
>> Live stats stalled out for about 8 minutes or so, but came back in
>> during OT so I got to follow the finish.
>>
>> I guess Lithuanian BB isn't dead, after all.... :D
>>
>> LNT JEGA!!!!!!!
>>
>> CFFI
>>
>> Go Lithuania!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>thesabasnetwork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
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Ha ha,
I think, just think, what you mean.
Serbs and Croats are good people, same crap more less, but the fact they're
willing to annihilate each other tells you a bit about their mentality.

Trust me, most Serbs like Lithuania very much.  I saw some forums in 2000, after
the Olympics, in which some Lithuanians said such crap about the Serbs
(Lithuania kicked YU in the quarterfinals) -- something like "war criminals",
"bastards", "proteges of Bora Stankovic" and such... which caused a reaction
such as "you Russians" and "WW2 Nazis".  You can imagine how intelligent the
rest of the exchange was.
We simply don't have any bad thoughts about Lithuania -- most people have few
thoughts in general, and they're mostly positive.  I don't know about the other
side..

The point is that if anyone in Europe knows about Lithuanis, it's the Serbs. 
Because we love basketball and we love great players.  We also know that
basketball is EVERYTHING to Lithuanians -- we have a couple of more "outlets" --
volleyball, waterpolo, handball... so that is a matter of respect as well.
In a nutshell, most people rooted for Lithuania in this championship.

In Western Europe, they wouldn't know Riga from Vilnius (as CNN just reported
from "Vilnius, Latvia" on the referendum)... people here know all about the
phenomenal Maculionis (I loved that guy more than Drazen), who can forget Sabas
shooting three-pointers... alas, I live in Portland, Oregon, so no more comment
there...  I also liked Arturas Karnisovas a lot -- subtle, quiet and yet so
efficient.

Of today's players, I can't say anyone is so distinct.  Jasikevicius is
unbelievable and the head of the orchestra.  Others simply fit great -- but I
can't say anyone stands out -- which is a feature of great teams.  In my
opinion, a tough zone defense can stop Lithuania -- but we'll see next year. 
Should be fun...  Serbia will bring its best, so will Lithuania.  Should be a
nice face-off of two most distinct basketball schools in Europe.
He he, I do think we're still better and producing more players... but again, I
am subjective and, again, we're slightly larger in the sea of small European
nations.

Cheers

-Boris




Almantas Kiveris <almkiv@...> wrote:
Wow, normal yugo :)

Thanks man for your words, I havent met many normal yugos before and
i see you are such. Your words about Sabonis and Zalgiris were
impressive. As for Drazen Petrovic I didnt like him but respected him
all the time. Its sad that he went away so young... and I definetly
agree with you that Sabonis and Petrovic are the best european
players ever!


> This gold is by all means deserved.  IT would be pitty had they
lost,
> especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
> NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>
> -Boris
>



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Hey Mayte,
of course I remember Martin.  The center. He was in that great Spanish
generation with Jose Biriukov.
Martin would today definitely play in the NBA.  As you know, there was a
"paradigm shift" in America in the late 90s, allowing hard-working Europeans to
find their place.  But when Drazen Petrovic and Vlade Divac came to the NBA,
they were just a showcase and played few minutes...
How things changed since then...

Yeah, back in 1986, our coach threw 18-year old Divac to play in the last
minute; not only that, but he ended up with the ball.

Cheers!

-Boris




Mayte Roman <mayteromanl@...> wrote:
Great summary of ARVYDAS SABONIS. I agree you in the most things you've said,
and also remember the games you spoke about, the 1986 champ., is this the one in
which Divac missed the possesion because he doubled, wasn't it? and after began
the 3pt 3 throw.

And I agree with you in something else, in Petrovic, (how I hated him when he
played against us!!!) we won't ever know what he'd able to do... in fact a real
pity. I suppose that in your country, just pronouncing his name hurts, am I
wrong?. In Spain we have a similar case. I don't know if you remember Fernando
Martín, our first star. Of course he wasn't Petrovic. But he was a leader, a
good player, the first european who played in NBA (in fact there was a bulgarian
who did it before, but he didn't change his team, he studied in USA).

Mayte

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: smokovci4
   To: thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:03 PM
   Subject: [The Sabas Network] Sabas of Lietuva and CCCP


   Arvydas Sabonis of Lithuiania/USSR is, along with Drazen Petrovic of
   Croatia/Yugoslavia, the best European player EVER.

   I watched him since 1984 when, as a Yugoslav, I saw this "Russian"
   team called Zalgiris, played in the European League.  Except that all
   but a few names didn't sound Russian and all wore ridiculous
   mustache... so I looked up where the heck is Kaunas and learned about
   the "Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic".  Then I learned that
   Lithuania was the European Champion in 1937 and 1939, a year before
   the Soviets "liberated" them in the nasty Russian-German trade of
   1939 (re-affirmed in 1945).  Ugly stuff.

   I write this because for an outsider this was the ONLY WAY to easily
   learn about Lithuania.

   Sabonis was the player who dominated the game.  Whether he played for
   Zalgiris (often losing to Yugoslavian Cibona of Zagreb) or the USSR
   this guy was all POWER and BRAINS.  Incredible passing and
   understanding of the game (which he brought to the NBA) and
   incredible long-distance shooting and speed which unfortunately waned
   after his 1988 injury.  He never recovered, gained weight and was
   simply a different player.

   Before that, he was your Ivan Drago of basketball (apologies to those
   not familiar with the Rocky saga).  Had he come to the NBA, he would
   have "proven" that those Soviets "fed these people something".  He
   would have been the best NBA player, I am sure of that.

   And during those 1980's, oh boy, the Soviets (that is the Lithuanians
   and Russians) clashed so many times with the Yugoslavs (that is
   mainly the Serbs and Croats).  Yugos were much better, but Soviets
   inflicted more pain. In 1986, at the World Championships, Yugoslavia
   was up by 9 just 40 seconds to go when Soviets (that is a Lithuanian
   and a Latvian) hit three 3-pointers and buried us.  And again in
   1988, same story at the Olympics. Then the Serbs and Croats took
   their revenge and wiped all opponents in the 1989-1991 period so
   dominnatly that only the break-up of Yugoslavia could stop it.  And
   it did.

   I was sad to see Yugoslavia break up and happy that the USSR did.
   All because Lithuanians' identity seems to be tied to basketball.

   Sabonis will sure be missed.  In a way, I missed him ever since
   1988.  Just like I missed the fact the Marculionis and Petrovic never
   proved how great they were.

   I did like the fact that he shaved his mustache... THANK GOD, so did
   Marculionis, Homicus and the rest.

   I even thought that we'd never again have mighty basketball
   generations.  Serbs have proven to be Europe's top in playing
   physical defense and tactics... while Lithuanians proved (finally in
   2003) that they rule the world game in shooting and passing.

   -Boris
   Belgrade, Serbia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

na bet tu cia almantai ir pavarei...
kaip jis turetu reaguoti? as tai uz tokius zodzius kaip "pirmas normalus jugas"
jo vietoje pasiusciau tave i viena vieta...
praeita vasara buvau serbijoje ir visi zmones ten man buvo normalus...


>Wow, normal yugo :)
>
>Thanks man for your words, I havent met many normal yugos before and
>i see you are such. Your words about Sabonis and Zalgiris were
>impressive. As for Drazen Petrovic I didnt like him but respected him
>all the time. Its sad that he went away so young... and I definetly
>agree with you that Sabonis and Petrovic are the best european
>players ever!
>
>
>> This gold is by all means deserved.  IT would be pitty had they
>lost,
>> especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
>> NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>>
>> -Boris
>>
>
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>thesabasnetwork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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>
>
>
<--------------------===================================-------------------->
           DELFI Webmail pađto sistema [ http://webmail.delfi.lt/ ]

boris you said true about a lot of things, but to say that lithuanian team has
small continuity when our junior won silver in world champioship...
when in last 10 year Lithuania won 3 olimpic bronze medal, europian silver
(sory, but i think that we can proud that silver more then you gold in that
european championship) and now gold...
tradition and continuity are very strong in our basketball.

>I watched the game.
>Lithuanians played excellent team-game with Jasikevicius as the
>leader.  One could see they were mentally ready to "avenge" their
>ancestors who played for the USSR and those who did little in the
>1990s.
>
>But Spaniards sucked too.  Except for the Gasol-Navarro duo, the rest
>of the team did little.
>
>Lithuania is a very good team, but it has its soft spots.
>Lithuanians have had very little "continuity" with their national
>team and has won very few consecutive medals.
>
>The fact remains that Lithuanian basketball is very distinct and very
>visible on the European map.  I personally don't think it will be as
>successful as Serbian -- my subjective opinion, of course -- I base
>it on the fact that Serbia has 9 million people and a great
>basketball organization with many more basketball teams and more
>money invested in the game.  That alone is not enough, but the
>constant talent-stream since the 1960s proves there's "some true" to
>it.
>But, I may be wrong.
>
>This gold is by all means deserved.  IT would be pitty had they lost,
>especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
>NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>
>-Boris
>
>
>--- In thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com, crazyfanfromidaho
><no_reply@y...> wrote:
>> What a hard-fought game!
>>
>> Live stats stalled out for about 8 minutes or so, but came back in
>> during OT so I got to follow the finish.
>>
>> I guess Lithuanian BB isn't dead, after all....  :D
>>
>> LNT JEGA!!!!!!!
>>
>> CFFI
>>
>> Go Lithuania!!!!!!!!
>
>
>
>To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>thesabasnetwork-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
<--------------------===================================-------------------->
           DELFI Webmail pađto sistema [ http://webmail.delfi.lt/ ]

Wow, normal yugo :)

Thanks man for your words, I havent met many normal yugos before and
i see you are such. Your words about Sabonis and Zalgiris were
impressive. As for Drazen Petrovic I didnt like him but respected him
all the time. Its sad that he went away so young... and I definetly
agree with you that Sabonis and Petrovic are the best european
players ever!


> This gold is by all means deserved.  IT would be pitty had they
lost,
> especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
> NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.
>
> -Boris
>

Great summary of ARVYDAS SABONIS. I agree you in the most things you've said,
and also remember the games you spoke about, the 1986 champ., is this the one in
which Divac missed the possesion because he doubled, wasn't it? and after began
the 3pt 3 throw.

And I agree with you in something else, in Petrovic, (how I hated him when he
played against us!!!) we won't ever know what he'd able to do... in fact a real
pity. I suppose that in your country, just pronouncing his name hurts, am I
wrong?. In Spain we have a similar case. I don't know if you remember Fernando
Martín, our first star. Of course he wasn't Petrovic. But he was a leader, a
good player, the first european who played in NBA (in fact there was a bulgarian
who did it before, but he didn't change his team, he studied in USA).

Mayte

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: smokovci4
   To: thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 6:03 PM
   Subject: [The Sabas Network] Sabas of Lietuva and CCCP


   Arvydas Sabonis of Lithuiania/USSR is, along with Drazen Petrovic of
   Croatia/Yugoslavia, the best European player EVER.

   I watched him since 1984 when, as a Yugoslav, I saw this "Russian"
   team called Zalgiris, played in the European League.  Except that all
   but a few names didn't sound Russian and all wore ridiculous
   mustache... so I looked up where the heck is Kaunas and learned about
   the "Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic".  Then I learned that
   Lithuania was the European Champion in 1937 and 1939, a year before
   the Soviets "liberated" them in the nasty Russian-German trade of
   1939 (re-affirmed in 1945).  Ugly stuff.

   I write this because for an outsider this was the ONLY WAY to easily
   learn about Lithuania.

   Sabonis was the player who dominated the game.  Whether he played for
   Zalgiris (often losing to Yugoslavian Cibona of Zagreb) or the USSR
   this guy was all POWER and BRAINS.  Incredible passing and
   understanding of the game (which he brought to the NBA) and
   incredible long-distance shooting and speed which unfortunately waned
   after his 1988 injury.  He never recovered, gained weight and was
   simply a different player.

   Before that, he was your Ivan Drago of basketball (apologies to those
   not familiar with the Rocky saga).  Had he come to the NBA, he would
   have "proven" that those Soviets "fed these people something".  He
   would have been the best NBA player, I am sure of that.

   And during those 1980's, oh boy, the Soviets (that is the Lithuanians
   and Russians) clashed so many times with the Yugoslavs (that is
   mainly the Serbs and Croats).  Yugos were much better, but Soviets
   inflicted more pain. In 1986, at the World Championships, Yugoslavia
   was up by 9 just 40 seconds to go when Soviets (that is a Lithuanian
   and a Latvian) hit three 3-pointers and buried us.  And again in
   1988, same story at the Olympics. Then the Serbs and Croats took
   their revenge and wiped all opponents in the 1989-1991 period so
   dominnatly that only the break-up of Yugoslavia could stop it.  And
   it did.

   I was sad to see Yugoslavia break up and happy that the USSR did.
   All because Lithuanians' identity seems to be tied to basketball.

   Sabonis will sure be missed.  In a way, I missed him ever since
   1988.  Just like I missed the fact the Marculionis and Petrovic never
   proved how great they were.

   I did like the fact that he shaved his mustache... THANK GOD, so did
   Marculionis, Homicus and the rest.

   I even thought that we'd never again have mighty basketball
   generations.  Serbs have proven to be Europe's top in playing
   physical defense and tactics... while Lithuanians proved (finally in
   2003) that they rule the world game in shooting and passing.

   -Boris
   Belgrade, Serbia


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I watched the game.
Lithuanians played excellent team-game with Jasikevicius as the
leader.  One could see they were mentally ready to "avenge" their
ancestors who played for the USSR and those who did little in the
1990s.

But Spaniards sucked too.  Except for the Gasol-Navarro duo, the rest
of the team did little.

Lithuania is a very good team, but it has its soft spots.
Lithuanians have had very little "continuity" with their national
team and has won very few consecutive medals.

The fact remains that Lithuanian basketball is very distinct and very
visible on the European map.  I personally don't think it will be as
successful as Serbian -- my subjective opinion, of course -- I base
it on the fact that Serbia has 9 million people and a great
basketball organization with many more basketball teams and more
money invested in the game.  That alone is not enough, but the
constant talent-stream since the 1960s proves there's "some true" to
it.
But, I may be wrong.

This gold is by all means deserved.  IT would be pitty had they lost,
especially to France in the semis as the Frenchman play some mutant-
NBA game, no "European" touch to it at all.

-Boris


--- In thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com, crazyfanfromidaho
<no_reply@y...> wrote:
> What a hard-fought game!
>
> Live stats stalled out for about 8 minutes or so, but came back in
> during OT so I got to follow the finish.
>
> I guess Lithuanian BB isn't dead, after all....  :D
>
> LNT JEGA!!!!!!!
>
> CFFI
>
> Go Lithuania!!!!!!!!

Arvydas Sabonis of Lithuiania/USSR is, along with Drazen Petrovic of
Croatia/Yugoslavia, the best European player EVER.

I watched him since 1984 when, as a Yugoslav, I saw this "Russian"
team called Zalgiris, played in the European League.  Except that all
but a few names didn't sound Russian and all wore ridiculous
mustache... so I looked up where the heck is Kaunas and learned about
the "Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic".  Then I learned that
Lithuania was the European Champion in 1937 and 1939, a year before
the Soviets "liberated" them in the nasty Russian-German trade of
1939 (re-affirmed in 1945).  Ugly stuff.

I write this because for an outsider this was the ONLY WAY to easily
learn about Lithuania.

Sabonis was the player who dominated the game.  Whether he played for
Zalgiris (often losing to Yugoslavian Cibona of Zagreb) or the USSR
this guy was all POWER and BRAINS.  Incredible passing and
understanding of the game (which he brought to the NBA) and
incredible long-distance shooting and speed which unfortunately waned
after his 1988 injury.  He never recovered, gained weight and was
simply a different player.

Before that, he was your Ivan Drago of basketball (apologies to those
not familiar with the Rocky saga).  Had he come to the NBA, he would
have "proven" that those Soviets "fed these people something".  He
would have been the best NBA player, I am sure of that.

And during those 1980's, oh boy, the Soviets (that is the Lithuanians
and Russians) clashed so many times with the Yugoslavs (that is
mainly the Serbs and Croats).  Yugos were much better, but Soviets
inflicted more pain. In 1986, at the World Championships, Yugoslavia
was up by 9 just 40 seconds to go when Soviets (that is a Lithuanian
and a Latvian) hit three 3-pointers and buried us.  And again in
1988, same story at the Olympics. Then the Serbs and Croats took
their revenge and wiped all opponents in the 1989-1991 period so
dominnatly that only the break-up of Yugoslavia could stop it.  And
it did.

I was sad to see Yugoslavia break up and happy that the USSR did.
All because Lithuanians' identity seems to be tied to basketball.

Sabonis will sure be missed.  In a way, I missed him ever since
1988.  Just like I missed the fact the Marculionis and Petrovic never
proved how great they were.

I did like the fact that he shaved his mustache... THANK GOD, so did
Marculionis, Homicus and the rest.

I even thought that we'd never again have mighty basketball
generations.  Serbs have proven to be Europe's top in playing
physical defense and tactics... while Lithuanians proved (finally in
2003) that they rule the world game in shooting and passing.

-Boris
Belgrade, Serbia

http://www.nba.com/blazers/special_features/Portland_will_miss_
Arvydas_Sab-84264-41.html
I think this sums up all our thoughts of the big man!

Although we will still be using this forum for storing and sorting
photos, referencing old questions and other miscellaneous things, the
main Sabonis discussion board has moved to

http://www.interbasket.net/talk/index.php3?s=

Come and check out the new board.

Stuart

Tomorrow you're fightin for gold, CONGRATULATIONS, you worth it. Today was
Macijauskas' day, but at the end of the game, he did a necessary and
beautiful 3 pt, and broke the game. I think that this was the most important
throw in the game.

----- Original Message -----
From: "numerum stultorum" <kacas@...>
To: <thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 05, 2003 7:19 AM
Subject: Re: [The Sabas Network] Two days left only!


> anyway sometimes in lithuania we call macijauskas "kalasnikov" :)), course
of the way he atacks the basket :))
>
>
>
> >Thanks again, Marius. I'm printing this (really good) summary and having
it close for the very next days.
> >I should had got it before 22th ;-)
> >  ----- Original Message -----
> >  From: Marius Nevedomskas
> >  To: thesabasnetwork@yahoogroups.com
> >  Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 4:36 AM
> >  Subject: [The Sabas Network] Two days left only!
> >
> >
> >  Hi every one.
> >
> >  It's getting so exciting here, I just don't know how to wait these
> >  final two days before the European basketball championship starts!
> >
> >  Yesterday, we gave a farewell party to our National Team in Klaipeda --
> >  now the lads will take the ferry and cross the Baltic Sea to Sweden.
> >
> >  So here they are. I give a short name (or a nickname) for all the
> >  players -- they seem so much familiar to us in such a manner:
> >
> >     4
> >     Giedrius GUSTAS. Born 1980, 190 cm tall.
> >     No real nickname, could be "Gustukas", but it's not stuck really.
> >     PG
> >     Young PG of Zalgiris Kaunas. Never was sure of his place in the NT
> >     until the very last moment.
> >     Our first PG, real star of Europe is Sarunas Jasikevicius now.
> >     Sharp and quick, good shooter. For long years, an eternal member of
> >     our NT used to be another PG Darius Maskoliunas (veteran, born
> >     1971) -- much slower, never very daring, always making the play
> >     so much quieter. It seemed he always had an assured place in the
> >     team in all those years. But now the new coach Antanas Sireika
> >     decided to give a try for Gustas -- which is really risky indeed.
> >     The guy could not even make a decent number of minutes in Zalgiris
> >     team -- but let's see, what he can manage in Lithuanian NT. He will
> >     be subbing for Jasikevicius, of course, but for how many minutes?
> >     Here's Giedrius:
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=9
> >
> >     5
> >     Mindaugas ZUKAUSKAS
> >     "Minde"
> >     1975, 202 cm
> >     SF
> >     Plays in Montepaschi Siena (Italy). Utility player, never very
> >     noticeable, but so useful!
> >     Coaches like to throw him on some scoring leader of opponents, and
> >     he can stifle them with his defence. One of our best defenders.
> >     Let's see if Sireika decides to use him as the first barrier
> >     against Nowitzky.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=232
> >
> >     6
> >     Saulius STOMBERGAS
> >     "Stombe", "Stomba"
> >     SF/SG
> >     1973, 204 cm
> >     As Darius Maskoliunas has left the NT, Stombergas is the new
> >     captain. Rightly so -- a veteran, he used to play together with
> >     Marciulionis, Sabonis, Chomicius, Karnisovas.
> >     Was really a phenomenal player in 1998-99, when Zalgiris became the
> >     best team in Europe. A sharp shooter, he also could penetrate like
> >     hell and do those nice lay-ups -- seemed like nobody could defend
> >     against him. After leaving Zalgiris, his career was not as
> >     spectacular (in TAU Ceramica Vitoria, then Kinder Bologna, then
> >     Efes Pilsen Istanbul). Previous season, Saulius came back to
> >     Zalgiris -- but during the whole season, was not really good. (He
> >     also had serious back problems.) At the end of the season, he looks
> >     like his good old self.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=164
> >
> >     7
> >     Arvydas MACIJAUSKAS
> >     "Macas", "Macola"
> >     SG
> >     1980, 192 cm.
> >     I don't even have to tell a lot about this guy, because everyone
> >     will notice him in Eurobasket! I'm pretty sure of that.
> >     He is our another Kurtinaitis -- the best shooter we've had for a
> >     long long time. The guy used to be a bit soft before -- only
> >     shooting, not really going for penetration. But last season, he
> >     improved very much in these field and became more physical.
> >     If I'd have to pick the player to watch from our NT -- I'd say
> >     watch Macas. He'll be our star, you'll see!
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=21
> >
> >     8
> >     Ramunas SISKAUSKAS
> >     "Siska"
> >     SF/SG
> >     1978, 198 cm.
> >     He was my favourite Lithuanian player some 3 or 4 years ago. Called
> >     "Baltic Pippen" by some, very versatile player -- shooting from the
> >     3-point arc, with very good physical properties, good for
> >     penetration, he was very exciting to watch.
> >     If he hits the right form, he's very difficult to contain. The
> >     problem has been that this "right form" is evading him for long
> >     periods of the season.
> >     He'll be competing with Saulius Stombergas for a place in the
> >     starting five.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=24
> >
> >     9
> >     Darius SONGAILA
> >     Simply -- "Darius"
> >     PF
> >     204 cm, born 1978.
> >     We've got a duo of power-forwards: it's Darius Songaila and
> >     Virginijus Praskevicius. Boyth used to play for super Euroleague
> >     teams the last season, and we're expecting so much from them!
> >     He was relatively unknown in Lithuania, when he popped up in Sydney
> >     Olympics from Wake Forest in 2000, and caused a real sensation
> >     there! Darius became a hero in our country overniht. Then he signed
> >     a contract with the mighty CSKA Moscow, and was one of their main
> >     players the last season.
> >     He seemed to be quite good for the Moscow club. On the other hand,
> >     Darius didn't impress us when playing for the NT -- including the
> >     Eurobasket-2001 in Turkey, as well the recent friendly games
> >     against Australia, Spain, Italy, etc. I still hope he'll be one of
> >     our main stalwarts in the tournarment.
> >     Darius is really powerful and versatile -- but when it comes to
> >     defence, there are problems. He collects those five fouls all too
> >     easily. Clean defence is a problem ...
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=161
> >
> >     10
> >     Donatas SLANINA
> >     "Donce", "Slonas"
> >     SG
> >     191 cm, born 1977.
> >     Together with Macas, they form our tandem of sharp shooters.
> >     I like Donce very much, he's one of my favourite players in the
> >     team. I don't even know exactly why -- you just come up to like
> >     some players for no particular reason.
> >     Donatas came from a minor Lithuanian club "Siauliai" (coached by
> >     Antanas Sireika, the present head coah of our NT). He was bought by
> >     Zalgiris Kaunas, but never shone there. A good player, but never a
> >     superstar. Then he was sold to Caja San Fernando from Sevilla --
> >     where he really showed himself. He was one of the best shooters in
> >     the Spanish league, a real sniper.
> >     I remember watching Donce in our qualification matches -- this was
> >     against Bulgaria, Holland and other weak teams. Of course, it
> >     wasn't a real test, but anyway ... What I really liked, was how
> >     Slanina played. A very clean play, I'd say. He'd collect the ball,
> >     assess the situation ... If it's good -- he'd shoot. If not -- he'd
> >     pass the ball to another player. All the shots would be 100%. If
> >     needed -- he'd penetrate, he can do that. Somehow, he reminded of
> >     Ray Allen playing -- quite discreet, very effective, never showing
> >     off. Sharp sharp shooter. Macijauskas is going to steal the
> >     highlights, but never underestimate Slanina.
> >     He had a hernia operation a month ago, and we were all afraid if he
> >     will come back. Luckily, Donatas is playing for us again with no
> >     problem.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=18
> >
> >     11
> >     Eurelijus ZUKAUSKAS
> >     "Stepas", "Eurelka", "Zukis", or simply -- "Eurelijus"
> >     216 cm, born in 1973.
> >     (BTW, he's no connection to Mindaugas Zukauskas, who is also in our
> >     team. The family name ZUKAUSKAS is really widespread in Lithuania
> >     -- it could be compared to Smith or Adams in English language.)
> >     He used to be our substitute center for a very long time. This
> >     year, it seemed, a similar fate could have awaited him. But our two
> >     NBA towers -- Ilgauskas and Sabonis -- chose not to take part in
> >     the European Championship, and Eurelijus became probably the most
> >     important player in our squad.
> >     Eurelijus came to basketball relatively late -- he was noticed by
> >     coaches mainly because of his big size. In his first years, he
> >     received a lot of criticism because of his clumsiness, which quite
> >     understandable. At the same time, Zukis was renowned as the "king
> >     of the block-shots" -- because he's got such long limbs and a very
> >     high jump!
> >     We all used to consider him as a more physical player. But during
> >     the last year or so, I was quite surprised to see Eurelijus evolve
> >     into a really versatile center forward with a lot of capabilities.
> >     He still isn't so good at shooting from afar, but under the basket,
> >     he's really good in defence and attack.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=233
> >
> >     12
> >     Ksystofas LAVRINOVICIUS
> >     209 cm, born in 1979.
> >     Lithuania potentially has the best centres in Europe, no doubt
> >     about it. Sabonis and Ilgauskas would be everyone's envy. Then
> >     there is Eurelijus Zukauskas, a really good player in the Russian
> >     league. After them, we would consider Robertas Javtokas, a forward
> >     with phenomenal physical abilities, who could dunk into the basket
> >     hung at 2.5 meters or so. Very unfortunately, the young guy was too
> >     much hooked on motor-bykes, he got into a serious crash more than a
> >     year ago, and is only trying to make his come-back the next season.
> >     So we have to rely on our second- or third-best.
> >     And this means twin brothers Lavrinovicius, both the same size,
> >     both very versatile tall players.
> >     Actually, the brothers are of Polish origin, representing the
> >     Polish-speaking area of Lithuania in the South-East.
> >     The other brother - Dariusas Lavrinovicius - was infured during the
> >     training camp of the NT, and he won't be able to play for half a
> >     year.
> >     What about Ksystofas? Well, he plays for the second Russian team
> >     (Ural Great), and is a very versatile player -- having a very good
> >     shot from outside, also being rather fast and mobile, as well as
> >     powerful in the paint. Of course, the experience is still lacking.
> >     Let's see how he can do at a high level.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=47
> >
> >
> >     13
> >     Sarunas JASIKEVICIUS
> >     "Saras", "Jaske", "Jaska"
> >     PG
> >     192 cm, born in 1976.
> >     Oh, this is probably our main star of the tournament!
> >     The main PG of the team, he used to play for Barcelona during the
> >     previous season. Now signed for Maccabi Tel Aviv for the next
> >     season -- he'll be harrassing Zalgiris defence once again.
> >     Saras is by far our best point guard, and he'll have a lion's share
> >     of the minutes on the pitch. He's really an agressive PG -- always
> >     coming with sharp passes, always can shoot and penetrate. This is
> >     sometimes a problem, when we need to slow the game down -- Saras
> >     simply is too hot for that. Before, we used to have Maskoliunas for
> >     the brake role, but now, I don't know ... Maybe Gustas? Also,
> >     Slanina can play as PG, he used to do this at his home team in
> >     Siauliai.
> >     Anyway, I don't have doubts concerning Jasikevicius. His
> >     replacement, however, will be a problem.
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=170
> >
> >     14
> >     Dainius SALENGA
> >     "Dzukas" (it comes from a region of Lithuania, where Dainius
> >     originates from).
> >     197 cm, born in 1977.
> >     SF/SG
> >     I like the guy, really. I could even say -- he's my favourite
> >     player on our NT roster.
> >     But to be fair -- he's one of those, who were never sure of their
> >     place in the team. Dainius just got the ticket to Sweden in the
> >     very last days of the NT training camp. In most probability, he'll
> >     be a good steady reserve for Stombergas and Siskauskas.
> >     Dainius is relatively new to basketball -- some years ago, he used
> >     to play handball, and was outstanding there due to his physical
> >     abilities. Then he became a basketball player (as it's so often in
> >     Lithuania), progressed really well, and was called up to Zalgiris
> >     Kaunas.
> >     What he has, is tremendous physical abilities. A year ago, he won
> >     the slam-dunk competition of LKL, by jumping from the free-throw
> >     line and making the dunk! He can also shoot from three -- it's not
> >     really sniper shots, but I especially like his shots from afar when
> >     closely guarded by an opponent -- Dainius just jumps so high up and
> >     away from his adversary, it's very exciting to see. On his day, he
> >     can beat almost anyone. The problem is, he's not so often "on his
> >     day" ...
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=7
> >
> >
> >     15
> >     Virginijus PRASKEVICIUS
> >     "Praske"
> >     206 cm, born in 1974.
> >     PF
> >     They are our duo of PFs with Darius Songaila. I don't really know
> >     who is better.
> >     On paper, the lads are simply awesome. During the friendly games
> >     with the NT, both were not very good. A random game by either
> >     Songaila or Praskevicius, where they'd shine -- but they were
> >     really poor, on the whole. Let's see how they can manage. The
> >     blokes joined our NT much later than the rest of the team, and they
> >     were behind in the cycle of physical preparation -- let's hope they
> >     catch up.
> >     Virginijus ir more versatile, than Darius. He's not a sharp shooter
> >     from distance, but anyway better than Songaila. Hitting threes is
> >     not a real novelty for him.
> >     But I wouldn't dare to say, which one is better. Very very equal
> >     choices. If they live up to their potential, Lithuania will have a
> >     very strong PF position. If they play, like previously in
> >     friendlies -- we're in for a trouble ...
> >     http://www.eurobasket.lt/player.php?id=211
> >
> >  All the best,
> >  Marius
> >
> >
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[[[   Another reminder... :)  ]]]


I know i've been throwing around the idea of an international
player forum and promising a new Sabonis forum for sometime.  Well, I
finally decided that it was time and for the last month, I have
been working on and off in creating interbasket.net.

Though there are scores of new international players in the NBA and
many more being scouted, the influx of international players these
last few years have also created a lack of places to speak abou
them.
Yao Ming, the first non-US player drafted #1, Peja Stojakovic and
Dirk Noqitzki are going to be perennial all-stars, Pau Gasol
winning
the rookie of the year, the huge splash Tony Parker and Manu
Ginobili made during the playoffs.  Darko Milicic.  This along with
the old guard; Sabonis, Dikemnbe Mutombo, Andrew Gaze, Vlade Divac,
Toni Kukoc... now theres a place for all of them.

I'm giving the Sabas Network Forum first dibs on joining.  You are
the test group before I annouce it through the main site.

So come post freely about Arvydas Sabonis as you did here and now
you have the option to talk about any of your other favorite
international players.  Plus, you'll recognize the moderators, they
are tried and true and as enthusiastic as I am.  I hope that you'll
join myself, Crazy Fan From Idaho and Matt Blair (mvblair) I
sincerely look forward to seeing each and everyone of you.

http://www.interbasket.net

Stuart

What a hard-fought game!

Live stats stalled out for about 8 minutes or so, but came back in
during OT so I got to follow the finish.

I guess Lithuanian BB isn't dead, after all....  :D

LNT JEGA!!!!!!!

CFFI

Go Lithuania!!!!!!!!