----- Original Message -----

From: SuzeeMcG@...

To: the_click_that_teaches@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 3:11 PM

Subject: [the_click_that_teaches] Hi Everyone!

I have been clicking my Tennessee Walking horses for 6 years, starting with my now 12-year-old gelding.   He's a super-sweet boy and LOVES clicker work.

 

I met Alex several years ago at Equitana and it was interesting to talk about the folks who swear treats are bad.  Not in my book -- mugging is bad -- there's a difference!

 

My 6 year old buckskin mare has very nice ground manners thanks to the clicker, and we have been doing light saddle work over the last year and a half, but to be able to learn how to incorporate the clicker in riding is just where I wanted to go, so Alex, I'm absorbing your book! 

 

We are off saddle work at the moment though.  My issue with her right now is that she has become alpha mare in her herd and just this week started challenging the barn manager & I.  My barn manager has backed my mare down with some intense ground work, but I didn't get the challenge from Dixie until she decided she didn't want to long line any more.  I found myself wopping her on the rump with the driving whip when she worked herself up into kicking out.  I finally went back into ground work (backing and lunging) until she gave and then she was fine.  But boy, I don't really want to go through all of that again if there's a more cooperative way through this.  I'm staying on the ground and practicing our ground driving until I'm sure we're past this testing.  But I'm open to any suggestions for anyone else who has worked thru alpha-mare syndrome!

 

Suzee in NC

Hi - I seem to be getting the digests ok, but then I'm getting an
occasional message that was supposed to be written to the list in my
private e-mail folders. I have two addresses and they're both getting
piece-meal messages...Not sure how to fix this...
-melissa

Hi Alex and everyone!

So happy you started this list Alex. Am so looking forward to this!

My name is Ilse de Wit and I live close to Calgary Alberta. I have one
husband, three teenage kids and nine horses of which I now have some
for sale (anyone?). We live in thebeautiful Rocky Mountain Foothills
and am lucky enough to have all my horses right here at home.

I absolutely adore Alex's work, just wish I had some more time.

Alex will be coming here for another clinic the first weekend of May
and I cannot wait!

See you soon, Alex!


Ilse

Many thanks for the invite to join this list - and even more so for
writing such excellent books.

My name is Hilary and I am in North Yorkshire , England.I have 5
horses ranging from 13 to 7 months, highland pony to lusitano cross. I
was initially using clicker as an add on to other natural horsemanship
methods - but the more I see the result of what is created by using
the exercises in the book ,  the more my methods are changing. And the
best thing is, me and my horses have fun! I am really looking forward
to June when Alex is coming to the UK  - lots to work on before then!
( but I shouldn't use the word work  - because it isn't!!)

Hilary

I think this list is a good idea , because we can discuss the riding
book without getting criticised by people who  successfully ride
conventional dressage  ( usullay on warmbloods or lipizaners ) .  I
think there is going to be a difference  , and its going to be
criticised . The criticism I see at present , is that horses that are
not on a constant contact, cannot produce the circle of energy ,
cannot engage , cannot be through ( whatever that means )  . that we
are producing false collection from the front , as  a trick .
maybe Alex is eventually  going to have us riding in the  conventional
way -- I dont know enough about the subject to know . I hope we can
keep it as ' tricks ', in the sense that tricks are optional , freely
given , fun , stamped with the animals own personality , which can
cause them to do amazing things you wouldnt have thought possible .
   My horse as you know is  my beloved Skylark , a plain 15 hand
mixbred , he's 4.5 yrs old , and gets ridden a few minutes a week  if
I'm lucky . He is very very green still due to lack of riding time .
The thing I have noticed , thats  convinced me ' tricks will suceed '
is how he walks  when he knows what he's  doing , like going down the
lane , or a passenger lesson .  This is a 17.2 on a mission .
Confuse him , and he's as you'd expect . Small and choppy .
However , the great walk is one thing ,  turning is another . I
think , pressure and release  and R - , dont actually have any
intrinsic meaning to him .  I wonder if its because he never
experienced restaint as a foal , and has been mainly handled with
CT .  He would learn through P & R , ( Peregrine , this is how I
always ask for a turn ) but  seems to be a parralel , not - as -
good  ,  universe ...  does this ring a  bell with anyone out there ?
I thought I'd fix a little long , narrow rectangular pen so he had to
turn of his own volition  on a passenger lesson ( get the behavior ,
one criterion at a time )  and then  work in 1 - flip  as he was
turning ( add the cue ) and see if the penny dropped in his head ,
aha ,  this is just like the groundwork .  Hemphfling ( can we mention
other trainers  ? ) does this  with the rider holding a horizontal
stick in front of them .
For some reason , riding to cones  hasnt made the penny drop for
him  . He will turn  if I push his neck  on the opposite side  , but
again it doesnt seem to make the penny drop , even if preceded by  to
the rein or my position  , which should ' add the new cue in front of
the old one ' .  Just thought this was interesting , because if I
hadnt known how  good he can be when he understands something , I'd
just  be hauling him round  and quite contented  .
best wishes , Anna .

Hi

Thanks for the invite - great to hear about others using the same
training principles as myself. My name is Helen and I live in New
Zealand with my pony Cookie Monster. Looking forward to some great
discussions and ideas.

I was just reading through the first batch of email introductions
people have sent in.  Wow!  We have quite a group!  When I published
my first book, "Clicker Training for your Horse" I thought of it as a
"space beacon". It was like the messages NASA sends out into space.
"We're here. Is anyone else out there?"  The book was my way of
saying: "I'm here.  Is anyone else out there?" It turns out there are
quite a number of clicker trainers out there, and now we're here, on
this list where we can talk with one another.  What fun!

Most of you are also on the Clickryder list.  That list has served
well as a meeting place for clicker trainers, and I still view it as
the primary list for clicker training. It plays such an important
role, especially in the support it gives to new clicker trainers.  So
why another list?  Well, to be blunt I want to be able to talk about
three-flip-three, hip-shoulder-shoulder and all the other exercises
in the book without first having to explain what they are.  Having
written the book once, I don't want to have to write it again.

I think we will all find that this is a very liberating list.  We can
assume that people have a basic understanding of clicker training and
are actively using it.  This is not a list for beginners.  Clickryder
is the starting point for that.  If you're still just working through
the foundation lessons, I would direct you to that list.  it is the
resource for that is best set-up to help you through the initial
stages of clicker training.  Clickryder has been in operation for
years, and the people who post regularly know how to be effective on-
line coaches.

That's not to scare anyone away, or make you feel unwelcome. If you
are new, by all means hang around.  You'll catch up fast.  But for
the most part, it is safe to say that if you've made it to this list,
you're a committed clicker trainer.  None of us will need to be
justifying our use of treats, or explaining our passion for clicker
training.  We can take that as a given.

You can also assume that people have a basic understanding of the
lessons being discussed.  You can refer to "The Why would you leave
me game?" without first having to define it.  I think that is going
to free up the conversation considerably.  We have people on this
list who are brand new to the exercises in the book, and people who
have used them for years.  That creates a very stimulating mix.  The
books gives us a structure for the conversation.  Who knows, we may
be creating a work book for beginners out of the conversations we
have here.

Primarily we're going to be looking the three phases of riding.
Phase one is making sure that the horse you are sitting on is safe.
Phase two is developing your horse's balance. That's the core of the
riding book.  Good balance gives you a horse that looks beautiful,
feels great, and stays sound.  Phase three involves incorporating
that beautiful balance into the performance sports each of us is
interested in.  And under performance sport, I would include
recreational trail riding, as well as all the competitive sports most
of us would normally associate with that term.

A couple of quick notes: I started sending out personal messages to
each one of you as you wrote in, but then in normal email fashion I
discovered that not all the messages that were posted were making it
to my computer.  So if I didn't send you an individual welcome,
please understand.  It is just one more in a long line of computer
glitches.  Hopefully, I have that sorted out.

All of you know me pretty well.  You've read the books and through
them you've met my horses.  Some of you here on the list are old
friends.  And for those of you who I haven't yet met at clinics,
thank you for sending in your introductions.  It's a treat for me to
learn a little about the people who are using the books.

Enough for now, except to say once again, welcome everyone.

Alexandra Kurland
theclickercenter.com

Many thanks to Alex for extending the invitation to join this group. You're
new book is great, Alex.  When I read your story of walks with Robin it
brought back such pleasurable memories of my own horse explorations.

My name is Margaret and I have two wise mares for teachers.  Serena is a 17
year old Quarter Horse and her daughter, Meadowlark, is a 9 year old
Appendix Quarter Horse.

Alex's first book brought me into clicker training 6 years ago and it wasn't
long before I started attending as many of her clinics as I could manage.  I
have received a wonderful education and have met so many delightful,
dedicated people.

I look forward to learning from and with you all. Margaret



--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.18/230 - Release Date: 1/14/06

Dear Alex:
Hi, and Thank you so much for honoring me with your invitation to
join this group.  This is like a late Christmas present.  I look
forward to the enlightenment and fun that this experience will bring
to me and my buddy, Luxor.

My name is Sharon Nudd and I live in Bath, NY.  I have been clicker
training for 6 years now.  I derive that date from my first clicker
book I bought and as with all the books I have purchased from you,
you took the time to sign and date it.  I have always thought that
was an indication of what a dedicated person you are.

I have had a few horses over the years and struggled and thirsted
for more knowledge and understanding of how to communicate with my
horses. When I first got into clicker training I thought I was going
to learn "how to use the clicker" but didn't realize that I was also
going to be learning the mechanics of training from a person that
has the unique ability to translate all that stuff I had been
reading (and scratching my head and trying to figure out how to put
into everyday use in what order?)into a language that "I" could
understand. I will always and forever be greatful and thankful for
this "clicker with Alex" experience.  It has brought much joy and
and many happy times to me and my horses.

At this time I have one horse, Luxor.  He is an 18 yr. young Am.
Saddlebred gelding (three gaited).  He also loves clicker training
and it has been a wonderful thing to see how it has changed him.
Anyone who knew him a few years back would not believe him to be the
same horse. I hope that my involvement in this group will be of some
benefit to all members as I know it will be priceless to me.

Even though I don't own any, I also have an interest in gaited
horses, draft horses, and mules so I am looking forward to hearing
how it goes with those of you who work with those equines as well.

Sharon

Thanks for the invitation. I am just thrilled with the ability to
learn more and share idea's with other C/T'ers. I am looking forward
to more lively discussion and insightful thoughts.

Warm Regards,

Linda

& Joshua :)

Hey Alexandra and gang. This is great.
I've got 3 full sized, 1 mini and several mini's in training. I'm a
certified practitioner of Peggy Cummings "Connected Riding" and have
integrated CT into her work. I'm also adding carts and driving to my
reperatoire and can't wait to share with other CT's.
Peggy Hogan

Dear Alexandra,
Thank you for inviting me to be a part of the discussion group! I
have been training horses for 4 years under a natural horsemanship
trainer and have learned a lot from this experience. I have taken
over 100 horses through his training program, and most of the cases
were a success. However, I have learned just as much from the two or
three that were not. I started seeing the parts that were missing or
could be improved on. That inspired me to read and experiment, and
this is how I revisited operant conditioning, which I first learned
about when I was 11 or 12, from reading Karen Pryor's "Lads before
the Wind". I had your first book, and recently bought the other two.
I want to express my gratitude for making this excellent material
available! I immediately started experimenting with my two horses
(and our dogs, and the barn cats...), and now I know that there is no
going back. Natural horsemanship and operant conditioning work
beautifully together, and I do hope that more horse people become
aware of it. In just a few sessions, my horses are eagerly picking up
the dumbbell, yielding hip and shoulder, backing, bowing, parking
out... Of course, they knew some of these behaviors before, but the
key word here is "eagerly". You wrote in one of your books that even
life-long equestrians may have never  seen a happy horse. I have seen
two now. I have been particularly impressed when I taught my Walking
horse to trot in just two sessions. In the 3 years I owned him, I
have seen him trot briefly only once, and never under saddle. He
doesn't do the gaits either: he is a hard pacer, with tight back and
hight neck, stiff as a board in spite of all the good ground work I
have done with him. Trotting was suggested by the massage therapist
that worked on him, as a means to revitalize some muscles in his back
that were atrophied, presumably because of the way he was ridden in
the past. The only problem was, the horse did not know how to trot. I
started working him over ground poles, installing the neuro-muscular
pattern of trotting. He had to trot to navigate the poles, but he
still could not do it on the flat. Clicker training changed that.
He "got" it in one session, and could trot without a ground pole as a
prompt in the next session. Now, after about 10 sessions, less than
10 minutes each, he offers to trot at liberty in the big field!
Unfortunately, the trainer I work for is opposed to giving treats to
horses, so with horses that come in for training I have to be limited
to secondary reinforcers, such as tactile and voice praise. If anyone
of you had experience overcoming people's prejudice against treats, I
would be grateful for advice.
Another interesting note: it seems that the behaviors learned with
aversives are in a separate "package" from the ones learned with
positive reinforcement. My horses only "throw" the new behaviors at
me, and I had to reteach the old ones to them by adding positive
reinforcement.
Thank you again for starting this discussion group. I am excited
about sharing experience with all of you!
Tanya

Thanks for inviting me to the list, Alex!

I am having such a great time with your book and look forward to all
the great learning that I know will take place here as well!  The
single rein techniques that you have brought to us have been a huge
turning point in my work with my horses and I am just so excited about
all there is to do.  BTW...today I was able to transfer my stall work
in haunches in with Jessie to the saddle.  He is SOOOO Smart !!!!!
Training is just such a joy.  Thank you so much for all you have
brought to us.

For my new friends:

My name is Connie Dwyer and I have been following Alex's work for
about 8 years now.  I have learned so much I feel like I am going to
bust :0)

I have 2 horses with extremely different personalities and I love how
the clicker provides the clarity to my training, it helps them figure
it all out while maintaining calm and interest and makes them SO eager
to perform.

Thank you!
Connie
__________________________
www.eternalsunstable.com

Hi. My name is Michelle.

I just got this e-mail to join the list. It is a great idea,to be able
to discuss your problems as you use the book.

I love the book. Can't wait to get started.

Waldo, is a ten year,16.3, Hanoverian. I've had him for five years. I
do dressage with him. He loves the clicker.

Thanks Alex for the invitation.

Michelle

--- In the_click_that_teaches@yahoogroups.com, "mjmvet" <mjmvet@g...>
wrote:
>
> Small world. I think I sent your husband a message on VIN a couple
> days ago...I was the sap that suggested tons of 'head lowering' to
> help with the girthiness! Welcome to the list!
> -melissa and ruby

Yes Melissa,
I follow your posts on the 'other' click group and I knew it was you
on VIN. On VIN, my husband does post ocassionally, I confess though,
that I often post too. Please don't tell on me. And I was tickled to
see both you and Jean suggested more c/t for her 'girthiness'. Its
wonderful to see C/T mentioned postively on VIN!!!! Thanks and I'm
glad to be here, I have so much to learn.

Hi Melissa and Susan,

Welcome.  I'm delighted you're both joining us.  Once I get all the
initial invitations sent out, I'll explain more fully my intent for
this list.  In brief, there are two main reasons for starting up yet
another list.  The first is I did want a place where people could ask
questions about the material covered, particularly in the riding
book.  I know how detailed, and multi-layered that book is.  And I
also know that for every page of text I wrote describing a particular
exercise, I could easily have written twenty more. So Susan, as you
bring Passh back into work, if you encounter puzzles from the book,
here is a resource that may help you sort through them.  We'll have
many of the people who have been riding in the clinics joining the
list, so you'll get lots of good input, not just from me, but from
other very experienced clicker trainers.

Every horse shows us something new about this work.  That's my other
main reason for starting up this list.  I want to be able to have a
focused discussion of the work contained in the books and videos, to
see what we can grow out of this foundation.

I thought about keeping the discussion on clickryder, but that's a
general list.  It is hard to have the on-going type of discussion I
want  when not everyone on the list is familiar with the material
being discussed. I don't want to take anything away from the
clickryder list, however, so I am hoping that as we generate
interesting posts, we will be sharing them with that list and any
others where they would be relevant. Melissa, I expect we'll be
having many conversations that will be of interest to your
BeyondBAsics group.

I have a day of teaching ahead of me, so I have to take off now.

Welcome again.  it is going to be fun!

Alexandra Kurland
theclickercenter.com




On Jan 13, 2006, at 4:53 PM, Melissa Alexander wrote:

> Hello everyone!
>
> I'm so glad that Alex finally has a chance to bring us all
> together. She has
> soooo many terrific ideas. I can't wait to be a part of it all.
>
> I live in Duvall, WA and have two horses, Blue and Guin. I had
> horses as a
> teen and then wasted 20 years as a responsible city dweller. I'm no
> longer
> responsible or a city dweller, so in the fall of 2004 my husband
> and I moved
> to a bit of acreage and dove in head first.
>
> I know very, very little about horses, but I've been clicker
> training and
> writing about clicker training for about eight years. I'm
> definitely more of
> a writer than a trainer. My personal interest is R+ training
> alternatives to
> traditional R- (pressure and release).
>
> Melissa Alexander
> http://www.mellifluousink.com
> What you envisioned... Better than you imagined
>

Hello,

My name is Susan and I'm in the UK (on the Wiltshire/Oxfordshire
border).  I have 2 horses, Finn (9 yrs, Irish middleweight gelding,
about 16hh) and Passh (TB ex-racehorse gelding, 9yrs, 16.2hh), and a
pony called Bear Paw (British Spotted mare, about 10hh).  I've been
using clicker training for about 3 years now, starting with Alex's
first clicker book, the videos, and then the two Click That Teaches
books.  I am so, so grateful for having been introduced to CT.  It's
enabled me to find a way forward in situations where I would have
otherwise had to give up.

My niece now shares my first horse Finn, and she has just bought the
Riding with the Clicker book too.  We intend to use it as the basis
for all his work now.  I am hoping to bring my second horse Passh
back into ridden work soon, after a long break with a back problem
(his back, not mine), and will be in effect re-starting him, using
the book as the basis for that as well.  Bear Paw is a small pony who
has recently come to us, and she is very nervous of people.  My niece
is using CT with her to help her build her confidence and hopefully
to give her a positive experience of humans.

I was delighted to receive the invitation to join this list, and I'm
sure it'll be a great learning resource.  Thanks to Alex for setting
it up.  I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

Susan.

Small world. I think I sent your husband a message on VIN a couple
days ago...I was the sap that suggested tons of 'head lowering' to
help with the girthiness! Welcome to the list!
-melissa and ruby

Hello everyone,

My name is Lisa Diffell, I'm in MN and looking forward to this group's
perspectives. I enjoy all of the videos and books in working with my 7
year old TB/QH 'challenging' mare. Thank you Alex for the invite

Hi everyone,

My name is Katie Bartlett and I live in Elverson, Pennsylvania with my
husband, 5 kids, 6 horses and numerous cats and dogs. My main projects
are my older TB gelding Willy and my young Dutch mare Rosie. They have
both been challenging but we have made great strides and they love
clicker training so I do too.

I have been attending clinics with Alex for 5 years and am so happy
that the book is out and we can all compare notes and learn from each
other. I am really looking forward to it.

Katie Bartlett
Elverson, Pa.
www.equineclickertraining.com

My name is Melissa Lapham. I have a five year old Irish draught sport horse
named Ruby (that
looks like a little morgan!). She came home with me when she was two. She was
unwanted
because she was 'ugly' and 'dangerous' (poor Ruby...) She used to be a HUGE
handful...now
she's just a handful. =) I knew a little about c/t from the dog world, but had
never clicker
trained a horse, and had never had my own horse. Ruby does a lot of great things
for me now
- and I taught her to be ridden on my own, but I really, really needed the
Riding with the
Clicker info. I read halfway through the new book when I hit mental overload!
I'm trying to
process a lot of it now. We're also trying to work through some stifle troubles
(intermittent,
partial upward fixation of patellas) I'm looking forward reading to this new
list!
Melissa L

Hello,

My name is Susan and I'm in the UK (on the Wiltshire/Oxfordshire
border).  I have 2 horses, Finn (9 yrs, Irish middleweight gelding,
about 16hh) and Passh (TB ex-racehorse gelding, 9yrs, 16.2hh), and a
pony called Bear Paw (British Spotted mare, about 10hh).  I've been
using clicker training for about 3 years now, starting with Alex's
first clicker book, the videos, and then the two Click That Teaches
books.  I am so, so grateful for having been introduced to CT.  It's
enabled me to find a way forward in situations where I would have
otherwise had to give up.

My niece now shares my first horse Finn, and she has just bought the
Riding with the Clicker book too.  We intend to use it as the basis
for all his work now.  I am hoping to bring my second horse Passh
back into ridden work soon, after a long break with a back problem
(his back, not mine), and will be in effect re-starting him, using
the book as the basis for that as well.  Bear Paw is a small pony who
has recently come to us, and she is very nervous of people.  My niece
is using CT with her to help her build her confidence and hopefully
to give her a positive experience of humans.

I was delighted to receive the invitation to join this list, and I'm
sure it'll be a great learning resource.  Thanks to Alex for setting
it up.  I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

Susan.

Hello everyone!

I'm so glad that Alex finally has a chance to bring us all together. She has
soooo many terrific ideas. I can't wait to be a part of it all.

I live in Duvall, WA and have two horses, Blue and Guin. I had horses as a
teen and then wasted 20 years as a responsible city dweller. I'm no longer
responsible or a city dweller, so in the fall of 2004 my husband and I moved
to a bit of acreage and dove in head first.

I know very, very little about horses, but I've been clicker training and
writing about clicker training for about eight years. I'm definitely more of
a writer than a trainer. My personal interest is R+ training alternatives to
traditional R- (pressure and release).

Melissa Alexander
http://www.mellifluousink.com
What you envisioned... Better than you imagined

Hi All,

I feel very honoured to be invited to join this list.  I have all of
the books and videos and am really enjoying them.  Up till now I
have been piggy backing the clicker onto the Parelli work that I
have been doing with my horse and pony.  Having spent the last 8
years being pregnant and looking after small children, my youngest
of 3 daughters has just started school and I now have a bit more
time to devote to my equine friends.  I am planning to work through
the latest book, riding with the clicker, with the help of a lovely
instructor I have just met who, like Alex, trains with Bettina
Drummond and at the Nuno Olivero school in Portugal.  I have just
lent her Alex's first book to give her the background of the
clicker.  I also have some other friends who I have introduced to
the clicker and they are enjoying the results.

My horsey partners are Genie - a TB X CB mare, who has been with me
since she was 9 months old (she is now approaching 16year) and Socks
who is a cheeky welsh mountain pony gelding who came into my life
nearly 3 years ago.  I also look after 3 other horses and 2 donkeys
and I use the clicker with them all during their daily handling.

I look forward to being a part of this group.

I am in England and am looking forward very much to Alex's visit to
Suffolk in June.

Best Wishes

Jane

Hi! My name is Diane Steed, I live in Scio, Oregon and love Clicker Training.
I have 3 Tennessee Walkers, and a 7 month old gaited mule baby. I have
been clicker training the mule since birth, and my 22month old Walker filly
since she was 2 months old. The other two were purchased as adults, and I
use it as well on them.
One of my mares is a very gentle soul, but fearful and hot.  Clicker Training
has worked wonders for her, to get her to engage her brain, and not just flee
at the slightest thing.
This is my first mule, so I am learning as I go! There are some definite
differences, they are very smart,  but mine has been more assertive than the
horse foals I have worked with. The clicker has made it possible to use the
lightest touch on her, when at times they would like to throw their shoulder or
head into you. It helps to remind her that she can be patient when she is
frustrated.  They retain the information very well.
I have taught a couple of clinics for my Dressage group, we worked on basic
behaviors, head down, leading, standing still while mounting, working
through obstacles, etc. Everyone had a good time, and we were successful in
changing some behaviors that were causing problems for their owners.
I have recommended the books, and have loaned them out as well. But I think
the best thing is actually having some success  with their horses, since there
are so few clicker trained horses out there as demos. I can't say that I have
promoted it as much as I would like, since there still seems to be lots of
resistance with most horse people at this point. But there are several people I
know that are using it at least for basic training or problems with their
horses,
so I guess that is a start.