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Systema and Krav Maga   Message List  
Reply | Forward Message #90 of 347 |
Before I discovered Systema, I wanted to take Krav Maga. I was
attracted to the non-Eastern styles of martial art, especially combat
skills that are easy and quick to learn. But something about KM just
didn't click with me. I read a lot about it and watched clips. But I
never did make it to a trial lesson. I think I was meant to discover
Systema, because as soon as I read about it, I just had to see it in
action. I was immediately filled with an intense desire to learn more
about it, even going so far as to sign up for classes, a highly
unusual thing for me to do as I am rather timid around strangers and
will usually do anything to avoid group settings. I felt it was worth
any amount of discomfort and anxiety only to learn more about my new-
found fascination. I didn't feel the same way about Krav Maga, and
yet, although I know Systema is right for me, I am still curious
about KM and interested to find out more about it (this goes for many
other MAs, not just KM).

This Krav Maga guy had placed an ad on a local bulletin board looking
for a training partner. We met in the park yesterday to learn more
about each other's styles. He has been practicing for two years. We
spent an hour-and-a-half demonstrating and talking about our
respective arts.

Surprisingly, he told me that he thought boxing, not Krav Maga, was
the best defense against any attack. The kind that Mike Tyson does in
the ring (sorry, I don't know what this is called). It struck me as
unusual that he didn't think his own art was the best defense,
although he did show me many different ways of punching and said they
emphasize punches in class. I asked them if they struck each other
and he said occasionally, with padded gloves, they will hit each
other lightly in the face so they don't lose it during a real fight
when getting hit is often unavoidable. In the Guidebook, it says that
taking slaps and other blows to the face is good practice, done with
caution, of course. I have never done this sort of exercise in
Systema class, when we punch to the face, we always avoid, and get
hit only accidentally.

There is a Krav Maga stance, for both legs and hands. For the legs,
it's one foot a few feet ahead of the other, and weight dispersed 50-
50. The hands are up in front of the face and open to avoid a
confrontation, accompanied by a phrase such as "I don't want any
trouble here" (which so often seems to lead right to trouble). Once
conflict has begun, the hands become fists. He showed me the
different ways they use the hand. Open, closed, fist, claw, and
individual fingers, KM has many different ways to attack with the
hand. He showed me different kinds of punches and they looked like
the kind of punches you'd see in boxes, with a very rigid arm,
leaning into the punches with the whole body, starting with the hips,
not unlike Systema, except of course the arm itself is tense.

He asked about Systema punches and I explained the relaxed, whip-like
motion and offered to demonstrate, but he didn't want me to hit him.
I can understand that, as he didn't really know me or my skills. He
asked me to punch the air and I did, explaining that I'm not very
well-versed in striking, and that it is considered to be an
intermediate-to-advanced technique. I felt kind of silly striking the
air, to tell you the truth. Systema punches look as if they wouldn't
hurt very much, until you actually get on the receiving end. Striking
the air doesn't really do them justice.

We worked on chokes; he choked me from the front and asked me what I
would do. I went to the ground, kicking him lightly on the way down;
I tend to do this when choked as it has proven a reliable way of
escape for me. He was impressed with my escape although I feel as if
I depend too much upon going to the ground. He showed me several
equally impressive ways to avoid the choke by locking the wrists. I
wish I could remember them in more detail. It was good work, the KM
defense against chokes, grabs, and holds impressed me the most. My
mom worries about this a lot, it can be a vulnerable situation for a
woman. As comfortable as I am on the ground, I wonder about freeing
myself from a mount, if it's a large man, I wonder if I would be able
to escape. I feel comfortable with the chokes thanks to Martin's
seminar, but I wish someone would come to Fighthouse and do a
holds/grabs seminar, hint hint. I should get a copy of Holds,
Releases, and Attacks.

Kneeing to the groin is used frequently in KM. He said in class they
knee to the thigh to avoid hurting each other. So I guess it requires
a little bit of play-acting as does slow-sparring (pretending to be
at full speed and following the laws of gravity as they apply to full
speed). Like Systema, they do a lot of knee-ing, not so much kicking.
He said they don't do sweeps, and I think he might have said it is
considered an advanced technique. I showed him how we defend against
kicks, for example, attacking the base leg, or redirecting the
kicking leg. I tried to explain how throwing a person's leg off by
even an inch sort of discombobulates them. Even dragging someone's
foot an inch or two can throw them off. By dragging I mean sort of
like you are sweeping them, like you can drag one of their feet
farther away from the other, so their legs are too wide apart, and it
will throw them off. When a person is off-balance, all their
consciousness is steered towards restoring balance. This is why
getting comfortable going to the floor is so important. It allows you
continue to fight instead of being distracted by restoring balance.

He said they techniques they use are "instinctual." But they do not
look instinctual to me. They looked highly effective, but still
techniques that need to be memorized, practiced over and over again
until they become second nature, not, as Systema, simply nature. I
also noticed KM seems to be external, even though there are many
physical similarities to the practice of Systema, there are no
philosophical, spiritual, or even, so far as I could tell,
psychological applications of Krav Maga. It seems to be pure
physicality, direct, dangerous, and aggressive. Lots of knee to the
groins, jabs to the windpipe or eyes, blows to the fragile temple of
the forehead, smashing the face, such as underneath the nose (hurts
more than on the nose itself, for some reason). I have no doubt that
if I were to attack him, I'd end up with missing teeth, a broken jaw,
or possibly even dead. Whereas if he were to attack me, he'd end up
maybe with a broken arm or possibly even just a bit stunned,
depending on the seriousness of the attack. They are very different
approaches, designed to meet different needs.

I showed him a very simple Systema defense against a punch, one of
the first I learned. If the attacker is leaning into the punch, you
can simply grab their arm and pull them forward and down. They are
already going in that direction anyway. He asked if this wasn't using
force against force, which KM also discourages, and I said No, not as
long as they attacker was leaning into the punch, since they are
already going in that direction. I also showed him how we use the
shoulder to put pressure on the attacker's elbow, and how the
attacker's own body weight can break his arm as you take him down. I
demonstrated how we hold onto the arm when we take someone down, but
he wasn't comfortable going down to the ground, so I gave him my arm
and went down and told him to imagine all the ways he could break it.

To my surprise, at the end of our practice, he said he thought
Systema worked great for me but that it seemed too hard to learn,
whereas Krav Maga has a fast turnaround. I said about four months is
the generally-accepted learning curve until a student acquires solid
self-defense skills, and I think he said that a KM student could
learn self-defense in just a few hours. I thought Systema was easy-to-
learn; in my first lesson I learned skills that I continue to use,
skills that would be very practical in a real conflict. Some things,
like rolls and strikes, are harder to learn than others, but I think
the basic defense and avoidance skills are easy to pick up. Maybe he
thought it was hard to learn because I didn't show him any techniques
or set ways of doing anything. I often showed him more than one way
to defend against the same attack. I didn't try to show him how to do
any specific moves, and I don't think he would have thought it so
hard to learn if a Systema teacher had been there to demonstrate and
explain specific movements. He wasn't as open to allowing me to
demonstrate on him as I would have liked. I let him put me in a bunch
of wrist locks, arm bars, etc., but I sensed a physical hesitation on
his part to allow me to do the same. Maybe because he didn't know me,
I am not sure. I wish there was another Systema-ist to demonstrate so
he could watch. He mentioned that he might look into attending a
seminar, and I said I'd do the same for the KM seminars (they are
somewhat pricey, though. I didn't realize what a bargain Systema
seminars are).

I don't mean to say that Systema is better than KM, although clearly
it works better for me. Of course, anyone devoted to their art has a
huge bias toward it. I explained that the way I do Systema is just my
way, and that everyone has to cultivate their own natural way of
moving. I never thought I was especially graceful or soft until I
practiced with this Krav Maga guy. KM isn't interested in grace. It's
just about getting the job done. With Systema, grace is not for the
sake of beauty. It's almost like a side effect of the practice. No-
one is trying to look graceful, yet they do. And that says something
about the psychology of the practitioner, their relationship to the
world, to other people. We aspire towards harmony, it is #1 on the
list of Ten Tips in the Guidebook. It's no surprise that Systema
movements are harmonious, or that such movement can be a force for
good.

This interpration of KM is based on 1 ½ conversation and practice,
some articles, and a few clips I watched. I don't have extensive
knowledge of KM, which is why I am trying to learn more. He said it
is taught to the NYPD and they do work on restraining and handcuffing
in class. They also do multiple-attacker work, but they rarely work
on falls, roll, knife or gun disarms, they do not take strikes. It
seems our classes are so much more varied. There is no telling what
Edgar might pull out of his magic hat for us to try. No two classes
are the same. I sensed that their class emphasizes repetition, and
that's why it does seem to me to be technique-oriented.

Also, it seems they spend less time developing skills that aren't
literally fighting skills. In Systema, we sometimes do drills that
aren't "realistic" to a street fight. We might do an exercise simply
to develop a certain skill, like peripheral vision. In reality, my
life will never depend on my ability to catch a tennis ball thrown
from behind me by spotting it from the corner of my eye. But
peripheral vision is an important skill to aid fighting. I think they
are more narrowly focused with their training. It's meant to be
learned quickly, like Systema, but one big difference I noticed is
that it's quite serious. There is no laughing or mischief such as you
will find in Systema class. It's not a game. I found it to be
somewhat grim, but again, I can't emphasize this enough, different
arts develop to meet different needs. KM prides itself on being a new
art, without the cultural background, myth, or history of most other
MAs. It developed from a specific need of the vulnerable state of
Israel. Systema is much older and part of its tradition, as I
understand it, is keeping civilians in training for times when they
might be called to war. Games are one way to keep village boys
interested in physical training. It's too bad today's children spend
more time playing the video variety. I am often thankful that I spent
my childhood in a world without personal computers, cable television,
or VCRs. I spent my childhood outdoors, and that contributed greatly
to the person I became.

Another difference I noticed is that the movements are more explosive
and abrupt, and very aggressive. It's kind of a one-shot deal. It
seems as if they aim to do one thing to take the attacker out
immediately. Whereas in Systema, it's not always one thing, at least
for novices like myself. Sometimes I have to move the person in five
or ten different ways before I succeed in taking them down. He
demonstrated a jab to the trachea. It looks as if it could be a
lethal technique, but what if you miss? There is no mistaking your
intent. The other person will instantly realize you intend to kill
them. Whereas Systema, there is always the possibility of de-
escalation, that the other person will be calmed by your movements
and the conflict subside.

There is no spiritual aspect to KM. With Systema, you can help even
those who are attacking you. Even if you must hurt them, to protect
yourself, you may still helping them. With Krav Maga, the goal seems
to be to do the most, not the least, possible damage. Although KM
does not believe you should engage someone if you can possibly walk
away. He demonstrated one scenario: someone repeatedly pushing your
chest with their hands in the aggressive movements that often
precedes a fight. He demonstrated allowing the person to do this
three or four times, giving the impression that you were not going to
do anything, then suddenly lashing out. I don't know if this is
necessarily a reason to break someone's bones. Perhaps I have become
too much of a pacifist, but it seems as if you might even walk away
from such a scenario. Someone pushing you aggressively, trying to
draw you into a fight, why would you want to accommodate them? I
would walk away if possible, although it's hard to do once someone
actual lays a hand on you, I'll admit.

Our practice made me realize how unlike anything else Systema is. To
move without any thought of result, other than avoidance, what a
strange way to fight! He seemed sort of incredulous at the principal
of maintaining contact, of allowing a punch to just glance off rather
than noticeably avoiding. When I describe Systema, it sounds
impossible. Even when I practice it, sometimes I think, "It can't be
that easy!" But it's easy, if you have a little faith. I don't mean
the religious kind. Just accepting that things are the way they are,
not the way you expect or want them to be. For me to dive into a roll
from a standing position, that's a leap of faith. I have to trust
that my body will take preserve itself from harm, we all have that
capability, and it's truly a marvelous gift that can be cultivated
and harnessed.

*Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
Rachel








Sun Sep 12, 2004 7:23 pm

rkxyz
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Before I discovered Systema, I wanted to take Krav Maga. I was attracted to the non-Eastern styles of martial art, especially combat skills that are easy and...
rkxyz
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Sep 12, 2004
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