Quote:I am not sure what you mean, Andrew. I was not mocking you. I was
merely stating a fact.Quote


Ah, no Rachel you're gonna have to do better than that, your sarcasm
and smugness are too blatantly obvious in that initial post. we are
not all born yesterday my dear, try again.

Or better yet, stop altogether.


Quote:I am the founder
> and moderator of this group. For years we have discussed Systema in a
> civil and courteous fashion. Now, for the first time in 3.5 years, we
> have some bitterness and disagreement stemming from a fairly
> straightforward question about my class experience as a woman.Quote


Oh dear, what hypocracy on your part Rachel.
there was no bitterness on my part towards you at all in my original
posting, you expressed your opinion about a topic and I expressed mine.
Unfortunately you decided to take to a personal level and your thinly
veiled attempt at ridiculing my experience ended up backfiring upon you.


It is unfortunate that you feel threatend by a man's opinion, or is
this a forum where only a womans perspective is valid?

Quote:I hate to lay down the law, but as
> founder and moderator, I won't allow this negativity to continue.Quote

Oh, I almost thought you were taking credit for founding Systema
there for a minute. After all you are using the systema logo and in
Russian, some individuals are probably mistakenly thinking you are
representing Systema as a whole. Perhaps you should rename your group
Rachel's (I am woman hear me roar) Sytema group (that was a dig *Wink*)

So, almighty founder that ridicules others years of experience
compared to your all enlightening , what is it? 3 years of training.

Apologies if I initially offended your highly inflated ego.but I make
no apolgies for the ensuing debate and rebuttal that you have stirred on.


Qoute:However, I am the founder
> and moderator of this group.Quote


You are the founder, no doubt, a title you print on your business
cards too? but that is how you gain gratification for yourself? Or is
there more to you?

But is a founder of a discussion group that doesn't own a system, in
a position to be as initially disrecpectful as you have to another
member of more seasoned experience? or perhaps you indeed do believe
that your word is all?


Qoute:People are already unsubscribing from the group as a result of this
> exchange so let's keep the discussion civil, shall we? quote

This thread was civil until you decided to take it beyond that Rachel.

You had 142 members before we had these exchanges and I see the total
membership still being at 142...so are you hallucinating Rachel or are
you simply a compulsive liar?

Quote: Remember that you will have more
> freedom to post on Vlad's forum at
> http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum: Quote

That is the most insightful thing you have stated in your posts thus
far, well done Rachel, there may be hope for you yet.








--- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com, "rkxyz" <rklingberg@...> wrote:
>
> I am not sure what you mean, Andrew. I was not mocking you. I was
> merely stating a fact. My instructors don't happen to have 10 years
> of experience, but you must realize that I have not trained with
> every single instructor in the entire world. I'm talking about *my*
> instructors. It is not so inconceivable for other people to have more
> experience than my own instructors. I don't know why you interpreted
> this as ridicule. It was not intended to be such. In fact, I was
> trying to convey to Sean that your post was welcome here and not to
> dismiss your opinion, though anyone is free to disagree with.
>
> I am not an instructor. I choose not to teach, though my own
> instructor has asked me to cover his classes in his absence, I simply
> prefer not to. I will never teach Systema, it's not my goal.
>
> I don't believe I am an authority, Andrew. However, I am the founder
> and moderator of this group. For years we have discussed Systema in a
> civil and courteous fashion. Now, for the first time in 3.5 years, we
> have some bitterness and disagreement stemming from a fairly
> straightforward question about my class experience as a woman. You
> objected to my stating that, because I have more training, I am a
> more skilled fighter than male classmates with substantially less
> training. That is fine, many would agree with you. You are welcome to
> your opinion of my male classmates, and myself. But you are not
> welcome to make harsh remarks about New Yorkers, women, Americans, or
> other people in this group.
>
> Please remember that we have discussed Systema peacefully for many
> years; I have never banned anyone, removed a post, or even objected
> to anyone's writing. Suddenly, the tone of the previously friendly
> discussion has taken a sharp turn. I hate to lay down the law, but as
> founder and moderator, I won't allow this negativity to continue. If
> you felt insulted by my post, please know that was not my intention.
> I merely stated that you have more Systema training that my
> instructors and for some reason, you perceived this as an insult. It
> is merely a fact.
>
> Let's try to keep this civil. Remember that you will have more
> freedom to post on Vlad's forum at
> http://www.russianmartialart.com/forum and that is a more appropriate
> venue for discussion of women as less capable Systema-ists than men.
> This Yahoo group is not quite so forgiving as Vlad's forum; it's a
> private discussion group and if I must take steps to retain its
> friendly, positive tone, I will do so, regretfully, but nonetheless I
> will do what's necessary to ensure that we do not descend into
> bitterness and resentment. Yes, you are welcome to your opinion, but
> keep in mind, this group is private and I am also entitled to
> moderate it as I see fit, which so far, has been unecessary.
>
> By the way, my instructor Edgar Tsakouls will be at the Japan seminar
> and I hope you will meet him and exchange ideas and discussion. He's
> a wonderful person and though he does not have 10 years of Systema
> training (yes, that's a gentle rib), having been in the United States
> for only a little longer than 10 years, he is still a capable and
> skilled martialist.
>
> People are already unsubscribing from the group as a result of this
> exchange so let's keep the discussion civil, shall we?
>
> Respectfully,
> Rachel
>
> --- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" <7thphoenix@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Thanks Sean,
> >
> > Overusing the testosterone line to dig at someone is definitely
> American.
> >
> >
> > Opinions are shared, agreed or disagreed upon.
> >
> > I have no problem with that, what I do find ludicrous is a personal
> > dig as to my years of experience within the systema method.
> >
> > I'm not anti American by the way, but you just have to accept that
> > perceptions of american people by the citzens of the world are not
> > that rosey at present.
> >
> > And as a New Yorker you should be used to the in yer face approach
> > since that is how you dish it out to the rest of us, no?
> >
> > I replied in the same vein that Rachel initiated in her original
> > response to you and in the public forum.
> >
> > She is welcome her opinion as I am to mine, right?
> >
> > If you're in Germany you should do your best to train under Vlads
> brother.
> >
> > Here is his website:
> >
> > http://www.rma-deutschland.de/
> >
> >
> > Enjoy your training experience.
> >
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com, sean davis <sadavis7154@>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello Andrew,
> > >
> > > Just to bring a little bit of clarity to a picture that seems to
> > be opaqued. Yes Im American, but Im not a female. I intitally
> posted a
> > question on this forum seeking help from anyone who may have had
> > knowledge of Schools/instructors/or anyone experienced in Systema
> > living in The Frankfurt area of Germany. Rachel was one of the
> people
> > who gave me assistance to the best of her knowledge, on ways to
> bring
> > me closer to that, my goal. When I realized she was a woman,
> learning
> > Systema, I posed a few questions to her as to how she was fairing,
> > and how and if being a woman, helped her more, in that as far as
> I've
> > managed to gather, Systema doesnt rely one physical strength but
> more
> > on relaxation and sensitivity; This lead to Rachels opinion and your
> > apparent retort, which I was also able to glean jewels from. For
> that
> > I thank you. However, you now bring up the point of Sensitivity, not
> > only on the part of Women, but also Americans, as if you have been
> > driven to a point to
> > > extend an invitation, and this is if im not misunderstanding you,
> > that teeters on the line of a confrontational challenge, soley
> because
> > you disagree with what was said. If this is indeed the case, then
> you
> > should really meditate on who the sensitve one is. Now If im wrong,
> > and I'm of the mindset that I am not, then I apologize and would
> > retract my aforementioned statement. I am unlearned in the arts of
> > Systema and am desirious of receiving light and instruction in its
> > martial way. There are other forums that can be joined for braggado
> > and tirades of testasterone. I came to build not destroy.
> > >
> > > I hope I am wrong in your case Andrew.
> > >
> > > Much Thanks
> > >
> > > An American born New York Bred Man living in Germany ;)
> > >
> > > Andrew Martini <7thphoenix@> wrote:
> > > Thanks Sean,
> > >
> > > I take no offence, however I am amused at how easily ruffled you
> > American? women get when the someone expresses or challenges your
> opinion.
> > >
> > > I am basing my opinion on experiences both gained both in the
> armed
> > services as well as on the street as it applies to battle tested
> > individuals and the results of those on one battles.
> > >
> > > The woman combatants were for the most part very seriously wounded
> > compared to the men, (this is reality not American Hollywood at its
> > finest, not the WWF battle of the sexes nonsense.)
> > >
> > > Murders can be committed by anyone, but that wasn't my point nor
> was
> > it the topic of Rachel's original posting?
> > >
> > > Apologies if you feel threatened or offended, but I will hold on
> to
> > my opinion based on what I have experienced over the years.
> > >
> > > I do not make any apologies for stating that I have never met any
> > woman in Systema or any other Martial art that is of the same
> fighting
> > calibre as an equally trained man.
> > >
> > > That is a fact.
> > >
> > > That applies to my dear sister who is an extremely well trained
> > combatant well versed in Systema.
> > >
> > > She is of the exact same opinion, and as a law enforcement officer
> > she so rightly states that in all out combat the only real gender
> > equaliser is a bladed weapon or firearm and your skill at using it.
> > >
> > > Good luck on your training, if your'e attending the Japan Seminar
> > both I and my sister would love to meet & train with you and
> Rachel.
> > >
> > > best regards!
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 8/9/07, sean davis <sadavis7154@> wrote:
> > > With all due respect,
> > >
> > > I applaud the zeal that both of you bring to the forum, it is a
> > testament of both, your passion for the System ,and a credit to your
> > self development. However, I must say to you dear Andrew, Rachel was
> > responding to questions that I directly posed to her, so please be
> > easy. It wasnt a challenge to men, or an endeavour to launch a
> > campaign for a battle of the sexes. ;)
> > > Rachel i deeply thank you for they very concise letter you wrote
> > in response to my questions. I will aply apply the jewels you have
> > expounded when and where needed. I wish to continue future further
> > dialouge if thats is order.
> > >
> > > Friendly greetings and best wishes on the journeys of you both,
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Sean
> > >
> > > rkxyz < rklingberg@> wrote:
> > > QUOTE:
> > > However a better skilled woman especially in systema can
> definitely
> > > overcome a poorly skilled man, that's what is so good about
> Systema.
> > >
> > > Here you are saying exactly what I said in my original post. I do
> not
> > > understand why you simultaneously agree and disagree.
> > >
> > > QUOTE:
> > > Whilst I agree that some women make excellent fighters, my
> experience
> > > in and out of the armed forces has shown me that men are
> naturally
> > > built like natural weapons(due to natures design)and therefore an
> > > equally trained men is at an advantage in a physical encounter
> over a
> > > woman.
> > >
> > > That assumption could easily get you killed. You must also take
> into
> > > account whether one combatant is armed and the other is not,
> their
> > > determination to succeed, whether or not they will sacrifice
> their
> > > own life to take your own, whether one person is more fatigued,
> > > dehydrated, cold, hot, or injured than the other, and whether
> both
> > > are alone or have additional support, if one person is familiar
> with
> > > the terrain and the other is not, how well each of them handle
> > > adrenaline and fear... if you take a look at Vlad's "Ability to
> > > Fight" chart: http://www.new-pony.com/systema/RMA.jpg there's
> nothing
> > > on there about gender or build, although "physical shape"
> > > and "physical condition" do appear, and I guess you could say
> those
> > > are loosely tied to gender.
> > >
> > > If you have a man and a woman with exactly the same amount of
> > > training, precisely the same level of skill and overall physical
> well-
> > > being, squaring off face-to-face, neither will be surprised, and
> > > neither is armed, then I completely agree, the man has the
> natural
> > > advantage of strength. If you can guarantee that every conflict
> will
> > > be as such, it would be foolhardy to think that a woman has an
> > > advantage. I guess it depends on what sort of conflicts you
> encounter
> > > and whether they would ever fall outside this face-to-face, equal
> > > skill, no suprises, no weapons, perfectly matched in every way
> except
> > > for the natural differences of the sexes. For some people, that
> may
> > > be the only conflicts they need to train for, but my experience
> with
> > > being assaulted does not fit this description.
> > >
> > > I stand by my original post, Andrew: individual psychology is
> more of
> > > a factor than gender. Of course, anyone is free to disagree, and
> > > quite a few men believe they have a natural advantage. 9.5% of
> > > murders committed in the U.S. between 1976-2005 were committed by
> > > women against men. Natural advantage is no guarantee of survival,
> and
> > > those male victims of murdering women are testament to that.
> > >
> > > Perhaps a more humble person would concede that the inexperienced
> men
> > > in my class can easily prevail over me, but I can only base my
> > > assumption on what I've learned from training with them. I can't
> > > speculate about what they might do; I have to consider what they
> have
> > > actually done. Skill acquired through Systema training is more of
> an
> > > advantage than gender. Thus the smallest guy in my class, who is
> > > considerably shorter, lighter and less strong than the big
> muscular
> > > guys, has no disadvantage when training with them because he has
> more
> > > skill due to his many years of training. His natural physiology
> is
> > > smaller, lighter, and less muscular than many female
> practitioners
> > > I've know. It is only through training and acquiring skill that
> his
> > > natural "disadvantage" becomes less significant that his skill.
> > >
> > > Vlad once said, "don't give the other guy too much credit." IMHO
> it's
> > > a mistake to assume that you can prevail over anyone, whether
> it's
> > > based on your skill, gender, or any sort of natural advantage you
> > > feel you have. But neither is it sensible to assume that everyone
> can
> > > destroy you. There is no way to predict the outcome of any given
> > > conflict. We all know it's not the same as training in a class
> where
> > > your partners do not intend to take your life. But there's no way
> to
> > > simulate life-threatening situations without the actual threat of
> > > death. Still, it's pointless to say that it's all useless and we
> have
> > > learned nothing from Systema merely because we haven't used it to
> > > preserve our lives in a true survival situation. My entire class
> are
> > > civilians and we do the best we can. Assumptions about any
> natural
> > > advantage or disadvantage do not serve us well. The Systema
> mindset
> > > is flexible, not predefined.
> > >
> > > Forgive me for being arrogant. That's only my opinion and
> everyone is
> > > free to disagree.
> > >
> > > *Vsego nailuchshego* (best wishes),
> > > Rachel
> > >
> > > --- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Martini"
> > > <7thphoenix@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hello Rachel,
> > > >
> > > > Nice Post!
> > > >
> > > > Vladimir's "Let every breath" is essential in understanding how
> to
> > > control
> > > > your body/mind properly for sure.
> > > > I've been training in Systema for about 10 years now, and
> whilst I
> > > agree
> > > > with a lot of what you're saying, I think you have to be more
> > > realistic also
> > > > in your rating of said self's abilities.
> > > >
> > > > It is vastly different training with fellow students that do
> not
> > > have an
> > > > intent of harming you and are somewhat cooperative compared to
> the
> > > > individual intent on hurting you at all costs on the street.
> > > >
> > > > Systema does a great job in preparing you to flow in every
> which
> > > way so you
> > > > can overcome your would be attacker or at least survive.
> > > >
> > > > However, I would fall far short of making the assumption that
> every
> > > man you
> > > > train with could not deal to you in a life an death situation
> if
> > > they had
> > > > to.
> > > >
> > > > The success in survival and an mounting an attack is definitely
> 90%
> > > > psychological, as mentioned on prior occasions Systema frees
> the
> > > individual
> > > > of those panic attacks and mental blocks which are responsible
> in
> > > making so
> > > > many individuals freeze during an attack.
> > > >
> > > > Letting your Body/mind react instinctively.
> > > >
> > > > The development of Systema and the Russian fighting arts is,
> like
> > > all
> > > > fighting arts, traced to the warriors of Russia and more
> recently
> > > to the
> > > > commando units .aka Spetsnaz.
> > > >
> > > > The Russians have always understood the importance of the
> body/mind
> > > > connection on on natural flow, so I wouldn't lump this
> principle
> > > with the
> > > > new age concept.
> > > >
> > > > It has been around for centuries.
> > > >
> > > > Whilst I agree that some women make excellent fighters, my
> > > experience in and
> > > > out of the armed forces has shown me that men are naturally
> built
> > > like
> > > > natural weapons(due to natures design)and therefore an equally
> > > trained men
> > > > is at an advantage in a physical encounter over a woman.
> > > >
> > > > However a better skilled woman especially in systema can
> definitely
> > > overcome
> > > > a poorly skilled man, that's what is so good about Systema.
> > > >
> > > > You stated that a lot of guys try to come in all commando
> style,
> > > and whilst
> > > > that may be true especially in Canada and the U.S.A I also have
> > > seen many
> > > > women that cannot and do not flow well at all when training in
> > > > Systema.Theytry to force techniques and use whatever physical
> > > > attributes they have ,
> > > > this is especially true of women that have ring experience or
> have
> > > trained
> > > > in traditional Karate/Muay Thai or wrestling.
> > > >
> > > > Spetznaz troops move very freely flowing in and out of an
> attack
> > > and often
> > > > disrupting the attacker and overcoming the would be opponent,
> > > regardless of
> > > > their size.
> > > >
> > > > They are adept at dissolving an attack even before the
> proponent
> > > has fully
> > > > launched into a full flight assault.
> > > >
> > > > Because they have mastered themselves first, they are masters
> of
> > > their
> > > > mind/body, they totally understand who they are and the
> environment
> > > around
> > > > them and the laws which govern who they are and the how the
> > > universal
> > > > principles apply to themselves and everything they interact
> with.
> > > >
> > > > I wholly and heartily recommend every individual training in
> > > Systema to read
> > > > and watch "Let every breath" as a first but extremely essential
> > > step in
> > > > helping you become a master of your body/mind and your own
> Universe.
> > > >
> > > > It may sound new age but actually it has been around since the
> > > beginning of
> > > > mankind and is a fundamental concept that has been and is
> enacting
> > > itself
> > > > all around us all the time.
> > > >
> > > > Systema helps you tap into this, thus freeing you from your
> limits
> > > and you
> > > > will become one with it.
> > > >
> > > > Happy training.
> > > >
> > > > Cheers!
> > > >
> > > > -Andrew
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 8/7/07, rkxyz <rklingberg@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > In response to your question, I have been training 3X a week
> for 3
> > > > > years and 10 months. I remember the date so exactly because I
> pay
> > > my
> > > > > class tuition on the 15th of every month. I live in NYC and
> train
> > > at
> > > > > Fighthouse with Edgar Tsakouls http://www.fighthouse.com
> > > > > I think individual psychology is more of a factor than
> gender. I
> > > > > guess women have one advantage in that strength is rarely an
> > > option
> > > > > in a class full of men, and there are very few women in
> Systema
> > > and
> > > > > in martial arts in general. So women have to learn the
> skills, we
> > > > > have no choice if we want to excel. Sure, it can be a bit
> lonely
> > > > > sometimes, being the only woman at a seminar of 50 men. At
> the
> > > 2005
> > > > > training camp, there were about 95 men and only 5 women. But
> > > that's
> > > > > more of a social reason than a practical one. Most guys are
> nice,
> > > a
> > > > > few feel humiliated that a woman with a lot of training is a
> > > better
> > > > > fighter than a man with almost none. In general, Systema guys
> are
> > > > > decent, gentlemanly types who respect women who can fight
> rather
> > > than
> > > > > feel threatened by them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I wouldn't say Systema is easier for me because I am a woman.
> It's
> > > > > easier for me because I was able to learn to relax more
> quickly
> > > than
> > > > > some other students. This is the single hardest thing to
> learn.
> > > You
> > > > > can pick up the other foundations of Systema, the breathing,
> > > constant
> > > > > movement, and correct posture. But you simply cannot force
> > > yourself
> > > > > to relax. Systema is 90% psychological. If it wasn't, I would
> not
> > > > > have come this far. At the risk of sounding arrogant, I'm one
> of
> > > > > Edgar's top students, I rarely miss class. The last time I
> missed
> > > a
> > > > > Systema class November of 2006. So because I am diligent, I
> have
> > > > > learned more than students who train sporadically or only
> once a
> > > > > week. But I am neither strong, nor fast, agile, certainly not
> > > > > aggressive, I have no desire to "beat" anyone, in fact, I'm
> > > actually
> > > > > a shy person. Systema is so effective that even though most
> of the
> > > > > guys are bigger, stronger, more competitive, and have a lot
> more
> > > > > invested in "winning," very few are any match for me. This is
> not
> > > a
> > > > > testament to my superior skills. It's just that diligent
> Systema
> > > > > training will have that effect on anyone! And I have a great
> > > > > teacher :)
> > > > >
> > > > > The most important thing, in my opinion, is to relax mentally
> and
> > > > > physically and to use proper breathing as described in Let
> Every
> > > > > Breath. Don't try to "do" something to your training parter.
> Let
> > > the
> > > > > movements of the attack guide your defense. Sooner or later
> it
> > > will
> > > > > all blend together. By defending, you also learn effective
> > > attacks.
> > > > > It's a very small difference between attack and defense, very
> > > often,
> > > > > it's simply a matter of who starts the engagement. Anything
> you
> > > use
> > > > > to defend can also be used to attack and vice-versa.
> > > > >
> > > > > Lots of guys want to go all commando, they get lured into
> Systema
> > > by
> > > > > its connection to the special forces and the military.
> Systema is
> > > > > extremely brutal and effective, yet it is not possible
> without
> > > what
> > > > > some would consider the more New-Age-y side: breathing and
> > > > > relaxation. My advice is to not overlook these key components
> of
> > > > > Systema simply because they don't appear dramatic or
> exciting.
> > > Don't
> > > > > be shy about coordinating breathing to movement. I have seem
> many
> > > > > students who do not progress because they are unwilling to
> explore
> > > > > the so-called "softer" side of Systema: relaxation and
> breathing.
> > > > > These are the very things that may save your life if you are
> held
> > > in
> > > > > a tight joint lock or sustain a mortal wound and feel your
> > > strength
> > > > > ebbing away. I always remember that Vlad told me Systema is
> 90%
> > > > > psychological and that means that whatever movements and
> > > techniques
> > > > > you practice, ultimately it's your own psyche that will aid
> your
> > > > > survival.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this helps. Good luck with your training and *vsego
> > > > > nailuchshego* (best wishes),
> > > > > Rachel
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com <systema_group%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > sean davis <sadavis7154@>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > thanks a million Rachel,
> > > > > > I will do that. How long have you trained, where are you
> located
> > > > > and was you treated differently being a woman in the system?
> Or
> > > did/
> > > > > does it come easier to you than it does with men, We have a
> > > tendency
> > > > > to use strength where grace is needed. Sorry if im asking to
> many
> > > > > questions
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Sean
> > > > > >
> > > > > > rkxyz <rklingberg@> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > Have you tried the training partners section of Vlad's
> site:
> > > > > > http://www.russianmartialart.com/main.php?page=partners
> > > > > > If there's nobody listed nearby, try posting a question to
> the
> > > > > forum,
> > > > > > they might know of another student in the Frankfurt area.
> That's
> > > > > > probably your best chance of finding someone in your area.
> > > > > > Good luck and best wishes,
> > > > > > Rachel
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In systema_group@yahoogroups.com <systema_group%
> > > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > > sean davis <sadavis7154@>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > hi im living in germany, Frankfurt area which is west
> germany,
> > > > > all
> > > > > > schools for systema are in east a great distance from where
> i
> > > > > reside. I
> > > > > > was hoping someone may know of someone who may be a
> certified
> > > > > trainer
> > > > > > are at least trained in the art. living in the area
> (hessen)
> > > Anyone
> > > > > got
> > > > > > any clues?
> > > > > > > thanks
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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