http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/video_perfect_
pirouettes_052509/

Although the changes don't have a lot of "expression" they are lovely, even
and smooth. The working pirouettes are nice too and the horse looks happy.
Oh to be able to ride like this!

Georgia Langsam

Team Gauguin, LLC

177 Oak Road

Alamo, CA 94507

(925) 831-9358

cell (925) 899-9515

Fax: (925) 831-9359

www.teamgauguin.com

Home of Gauguin du Cheval 9054

2008 AWS Eventing Horse of the Year

2008 SWANA Training Level Eventing Horse of the Year

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)
Database version: 6.12610
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Georgia,
I couldn't get the link to work. Could you either repost it or give us the
title so we can look it up?

Julie W.

-----Original Message-----
From: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Georgia Langsam
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:30 PM
To: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ClassicalDressage] Lovely schooling session with Hubertus
Schmidt

http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/video_perfec
t_
pirouettes_052509/

Although the changes don't have a lot of "expression" they are lovely,
even
and smooth. The working pirouettes are nice too and the horse looks happy.
Oh to be able to ride like this!

Georgia Langsam

Team Gauguin, LLC

177 Oak Road

Alamo, CA 94507

(925) 831-9358

cell (925) 899-9515

Fax: (925) 831-9359

www.teamgauguin.com

Home of Gauguin du Cheval 9054

2008 AWS Eventing Horse of the Year

2008 SWANA Training Level Eventing Horse of the Year

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)
Database version: 6.12610
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Try cutting and pasting.  The URL address is long and broke in her e-mail.

 ----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Williams" <Flytway@nctc.net>
To: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 8:41:25 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern
Subject: RE: [ClassicalDressage] Lovely schooling session with Hubertus Schmidt

Georgia,
I couldn't get the link to work. Could you either repost it or give us the
title so we can look it up?

Julie W.

-----Original Message-----
From: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com
[mailto: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com ]On Behalf Of Georgia Langsam
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 9:30 PM
To: ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ClassicalDressage] Lovely schooling session with Hubertus
Schmidt

http://equisearch.com/horses_riding_training/english/dressage/video_perfec
t_
pirouettes_052509/

Although the changes don't have a lot of "expression" they are lovely,
even
and smooth. The working pirouettes are nice too and the horse looks happy.
Oh to be able to ride like this!

Georgia Langsam

Team Gauguin, LLC

177 Oak Road

Alamo, CA 94507

(925) 831-9358

cell (925) 899-9515

Fax: (925) 831-9359

www.teamgauguin.com

Home of Gauguin du Cheval 9054

2008 AWS Eventing Horse of the Year

2008 SWANA Training Level Eventing Horse of the Year

E-mail message checked by Spyware Doctor (6.0.1.441)
Database version: 6.12610
http://www.pctools.com/en/spyware-doctor-antivirus/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hello Jeanne & Thank You!

You wrote: I'm not sure the "problem" can be fixed until the "dollars"
are somehow taken out of the equation. I don't think there is a way to
get all judges on the same vision.

It would help if there were automatic penalties for certain
"disobediences", like in figure skating, but I have seen skaters with a
major penalty, like a fall, still score high enough to stand on the
podium - because enough of their competitors either had bigger mistakes
or enough minor penalties to tip the scales.

It is also a problem that the level of cruelty of some of the training
"techniques" is a function of opinion (yes, I can see the horse is not
really happy in his work, but he's not bleeding or lame or anything...).

I don't have any good answer. What I CAN do is ride to the best of my
ability, as correctly as possible. Someday, I might feel bold enough to
try setting an example at a show or two (not starting with correct
horsemanship, I have a LOT of things to correct before that day comes).
If I'm good enough to place well, others might try to copy the way of my
success.

Thank You Jeanne, my point exactly!

Best Wishes & Good Riding,

KateC

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I personally know of a lot of people (20) who are going, so it should be well attended (from all over the states). But isnt there a cost for the riders as well? I know of two who are wiling to haul from Buffalo which would be very interesting for him to use. I hope the 'hand picked' does not be mean perfect, but from many different backgrounds and types so that the work in hand/etc may be well used for particular cases.

paula

--- In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "Cathy.Burrell" <cathy.burrell@...> wrote:
>
>
> I was sent this e mail with the note to pass it on to all that might be interested. So please feel free to pass it on, or even better attend <G>
> Cathy
>
>
> We are extremely fortunate to have a one in a lifetime opportunity to have Philippe Karl come to North America. No matter what your equestrian background is in dressage, there can be no doubt that Philippe Karl is one of the most talented and educated horsemen of this time, one who freely and eloquently shares of his equestrian knowledge. Any one of us would be hard pressed to find another horseman with his depth and breadth of knowledge. This is an opportunity that is not to be missed and one that we never expected to have. Unfortunately this amazing opportunity may disappear, never to happen again. An incredible loss to our North American equestrian community. This is a clinic that is being put on for the auditors, with the riders handpicked and riding for free so that they can best demonstrate the work of Philippe Karl. It is quite normal for riders to quickly contact the clinic organizers and it is quite normal to expect for the auditors to put in an application at the very last minute, not too concerned with there not being room for one more chair. But with a dependence on the auditors to support this clinic, the clinic organizers need to ensure that the numbers will support the cost of bringing Philippe Karl to North America. Please contact the clinic organizers to ensure that we do not lose this opportunity. One that may never come again.
>
>
> Further Information about the clinic, which is being hosted at Sterling Hills farm north of Toronto, is available at http://www.horse-canada.com/?page_id=2028
>
>
>
> If you would like to read more about Philippe Karl, Horses For LIFE Magazine, in the hope of letting more people know about his work and encouraging riders to participate in this once in a lifetime clinic, is making freely available an interview in their Volume 40 Edition where Philippe Karl opens up on why he feels so alone.
>
>
>
> http://horsesforlife.com/HorsesForLIFEVolume40
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

OH! I first thought PK= Paula Kierkegaard.  I had the BEST clinic with her with my fractious BIG Morgan gelding. Is that you, Paula as ideayoda?
I remember everything about this clinic. It was at Glenda Childreth's and I still apply what you taught me about *forward*, and riding pushing a "baby buggy". It really works!
thanks for your insight.
I'd love to see Phillipe Karl also. Very interesting reading from him. - Lois

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

JP/julie/molly et al,

I hope everyone watches Classic contra Classic video (Christoph Hess and PK) in disscussion. I guess I would take the side of PK. NO one can say such horses (of today) are NOT (from the stallion) perfect types, they are born with the gaits of fully trained horses. They are material of extremely high quality (with extremely high price tags as well). No one can disagree with that. They ARE wonderful horses. And it is sustaining the (PURITY of the) gaits which we must address first.

However, In past times that means they would have been treated even more carefully, taken longer to be brought to full expression. Extreme brilliance was a result of careful training, progressive lightness, and modulated until the horses body could withstand it. Matinee (center ring Aacehn at 9) was gone away at 10. Poetin (3.3M euro) horse is dead. Gal's last horse to stud (was unstable in its lower joints behind much earlier). It is easy to be wasteful of such wonderful horse talent when there are more coming behind. But the majority of us do not have that kind of $$ to toss away horses.

The kind of expression which is now asked of 4/5/6 yo FEI classes is absurd. And the hunger for viewer to enjoy impure trots a siren call. To ride a young stallion (full of testoserone) in such tension (which is created by the training methods) is to rack havoc physically on the horse first, and on the traditional training system which is all but gone). It is precisely what Reigler/von N/PK/Reiner/Maria Gunther/Zettl/the list goes on forever rail against. Horses in times past were just allowed (measured training) to start to give expression to their GP work. Why? Because lateral flexability was much more important in developing up hill balance, and that takes time!

Perhaps I cannot get past the warmups (or do not want to). They disgust me, and I will leave horse altogether if that is what it now takes to train a horse. I would sincerely hope the riders will 'mature' with age, however EG is following his mentor, and she has done this for 20 years almost now (following her trainer who had only ridden for 3 years at all!!!!!!). What motivation would they have to try traditional training (if the judges/viewers enjoy their results). Do you think AvG/SJ are embarassed by their methods? The only thing they ever want if the method is shown publically is $$ for the images. Their method works for their winning, and the neigh sayers (including heads of the FEI are ignored). Personally, I want (to follow) the depth of hundreds of years of the srs/cadre/etc, as a better guidelines for the nature of the horse. (EVERY horse not just the talented ones.)

As a judge, I feel that the rules were written for a reason, including the FEI statement that it is the judges burden to hold the standards of the classical art. I do not take that lightly. I also did not write the rules about the poll being the highest point, nor the mobility of the jaw (sadly taken out), or the lengths of the stride, etc. But I do ask why so many rules are suddenly (since abou 84) ignored. And as Podhajsky, says the eye is so easily lost and so easily is fooled by flashing gaits. Ballerinas are now being asked to dance because of force, and for me this takes away from what God gives the horse, it dirties the mind and worst of all compromises the ethics.

In working each day in training OF COURSE one must take the talents, the positives and build upon them. That is how horses and riders are advanced easily and correctly. Without tension, saying yes to the rider. That is why the training of people like PK/von N/et al is so methodical. And it is by copying this type of trainer/teacher that we hold standards. They word the hardest behind the scenes. They choose the good of the horse over selling coats/saddles/images. As a teacher I am positive, I am also realistic. I look for the BASICS, and then build upon that. IF there are no basics, or they are ignored, eventually the entire thing falls apart (either the progression or the physical body of the horse). How does one look at the top w/o looking first at the basics? Tell me that. I always say good job for the proper timing and balance with a student, and try again differently when it is not.

For me critique is one thing: This horse has x element, we will work on developing the next thing from this exercises. But when an entire methodology is based on something totally different that we propose as traditional, how are we support it? How does training with the neck taken out of the mix have anything to do with traditional riding? Why is the nature of the horse (generous/giving to a fault/etc) allowed to try to cover up the downside (listed here forever)? Does that not prolong, nee encourage, that style of training? (I can tell you that most show rides now 'assume the position' (copy AvG/ EG/SJ) and EXPECT high scores for doing so. But their horses being of lesser inate quality do more readily show the downside of poor balance. And when we (who are supposedly traditional) agree with it, are we not doig the same thing? What is the reason for EG to ever change/develop if the present methods support very high scores and very big business? The very essence of balance/lightnesss in the bridle are totally different, even the action to the leg is the antithesis of what is traditional. Not only is the curb now held in constant tension/often horizontal, but with it as the outside rein....far different from the starting of horses (a la von N et al) with s.r. to the caveson. The very INTENTION is different: one for the long life, soundness, and good of the horse and the other for $$ and supporting soundness as needed.

Lastly for those who have not ridden the masterworks of both systems, they are nothing the same. And the toss aways from the de jour systems is what I usually see, and they are legend in their numbers (the quoted figure in one country is 50% are sent to slaughter by age 8). Consider carefully what and why something is perceived as it is. Look for substance/basis. Then rave about the rest.

paula

--- In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "mollinameister" <cheesepalace@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Julie;
> of course i don't think that you condone abuse.
> but as an artist i do see a lot of poor art due to lack of understanding of critique.
> the horse world and the art world has developed an idea that if these people are at the top making the most money they have to be doing it right.
> history says that isn't especially true (not especially untrue either ;) . The argument of such things as sour grapes is the reason that i posted basically. that shuts off discussion.
>
> i was facinated by Dr. Ritter's recent post saying good things about this particular horse up for discussion and for paula's counterpoint. much to learn imho. notice i did not talk about the horse's gaits etc. that is not an area i can give much but muddled opinion but as far as the neccesity of critique and openeness to critism as a powerful force in improving art,... that i have seen. i know a few artists that resent any critisism and they basically don't improve.
> i am (maybe incorrectly assuming ) that most people are on this list to improve. and open critique imho is an excellent tool.
>
> thank you so much for your response
> i laugh at the thought of anyoone on this list 'for abuse' lol!
> molly
>
> ---
>
> In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Williams" <Flytway@> wrote:
> >
> > Molly,
> > Nice post. You had significant things to say in your post, I apologize for
> > not addressing them all.
> >
> > I hope you don't think that those of us who are tired of the constant outcry
> > against abuse are actually for it. Furthest from the truth. I hate injustice
> > and cruelty as much as the next gal.
> >
> > Not everyone joined this list for the same reason. Not everyone gets the
> > same thing out of their involvement in the list. My understanding is that
> > this list was started to study, teach, and further classical dressage
> > principles and practice. Criticism is not the only method of teaching. For
> > every horse and rider that is doing 4 things wrong, he might be doing 2
> > things right. Posters here rarely comment on what looks nice, pleasing,
> > helpful. I notice lately though that people are doing more positive
> > comments and I am grateful.
> >
> > No one's journey is over yet. We're all in school---including people like
> > Gal. What he promotes in his 60's and 70's may be different than what he is
> > doing now. A famous trainer said of another young buck clinician who is
> > coming up the ranks, "In twenty years he will look back at what he's been
> > teaching recently and be embarassed, because he will have learned so much
> > more."
> >
> > Julie

In a message dated 6/16/2009 10:03:22 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
galopp@... writes:

<< As a judge, I feel that the rules were written for a reason, including
the FEI statement that it is the judges burden to hold the standards of the
classical art. I do not take that lightly. >>

I can understand and sympathize with your position, Paula. I also know
from being a board member of our local GMO that show management will hire the
judges their entrants desire. So if 95% of the competitors are riding
horses who are over flexed and behind the bit, and a judge comes in and scores
them as they should be scored, the competitors will scream bloody murder
and show management will not hire that judge again. I don't know what the
answer is, but I DO believe that there IS a movement in the making. I still
think everyone should hold true to their standards, spread the word in
whatever way possible, and wait as more people recognize the difference and
join the ranks. Dr. Ritter has been featured in Dressage Today, which has
typically been the US "competitive dressage" magazine. That's a huge
benefit. We all just need to keep the faith and keep the momentum going.

<< The very INTENTION is different: one for the long life, soundness, and
good of the horse and the other for $$ and supporting soundness as needed.
>>

And I think that is at the crux of the issue. Training should not be
about the human ego, and yet we are a society of ego! Our whole culture is a
competition to see who has the biggest ego. Everything you (and others)
disagree with in regard to the current training trend can be traced back to
ego. The bigger the ego the less the ability to even recognize the inner
being of a creature such as the horse. The ego knows nothing beyond it's own
wants and needs. One of the greatest gifts the horse offers to humanity is
the opportunity for two inner beings to interact on the level of
"essence". The ego knows of no such thing. Two spiritual beings interacting in
harmony is a thing of beauty - but the ego only knows separation, not
communion. The "problem" is more pervasive and more fundamental than horse
training. It is a problem of humankind.
Ann
**************Download the AOL Classifieds Toolbar for local deals at your
fingertips.
(http://toolbar.aol.com/aolclassifieds/download.html?ncid=emlcntusdown00000004)

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Paula, we are all well aware of the problem created by the search for excessive expression starting at the training level.

We are preparing the release of a comprehensive program that addresses all of these issues and will allow interested riders to follow a more traditional approach to training. Funny enough, it is called "Traditional Horsemanship" and the competition/certification program that supports it is called "TM Manege", per the old term defining Equestrian Art.

As soon as the website is ready, I will be happy to share its contents with all who are interested in participating in a practical solution to the problem at hand. You will then see that they are practical judging solutions to this mess. It is not so much the judges but the scoring sheet and its current emphasis that is the problem, in my view. More about that later.

The issue is that dressage as stopped being about training and is now about gaits near exclusively. Everything you are saying (and rightly complaining about) is based on that new paradigm that only pays lip service to the progression of training as we understood it in the past.

Meanwhile, here is an extract of my Clinic Guidelines that I hand out to all my students. You will notice that Expression/Brilliance (as it used to be called) comes LAST in the training strategy, because the "School gaits" were never achieved before the gymnastic education of the horse was completed. Here is the quote from my flyer:

"The goal of JP's lifelong research has been to facilitate horse training with 3 basic actions:
1 - To engage the horse's attention and sort out the social order the trainer forms with the horse by looking for both respect and trust.
2 - To optimize training results through modifying the horse's emotional disposition and his physical ability by using Endotapping, a procedure that relaxes both the nervous and the muscular systems.
3 – To build, one step at a time, a working relationship between horse and rider that respects the classic principles of horsemanship and seeks to develop reliable responses from the horse that are infinitely modifiable, using the Baroque Gymnastic progression while remaining within his comfort zone.

Riders should follow this strategy, in that order: calm & obedience, then forwardness & energy, then lateral gymnastic for flexibility, then collection for self-carriage, then expression for beauty.

These concepts can be used by all riders as a roadmap to training success when looking for solutions to everyday riding and training problems."

Again EXPRESSION COMES LAST, so we are on the same page, don't worry :)

JP

--- In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "ideayoda" <galopp@...> wrote:
>
> JP/julie/molly et al,
>
> I hope everyone watches Classic contra Classic video (Christoph Hess and PK) in disscussion. I guess I would take the side of PK. NO one can say such horses (of today) are NOT (from the stallion) perfect types, they are born with the gaits of fully trained horses. They are material of extremely high quality (with extremely high price tags as well). No one can disagree with that. They ARE wonderful horses. And it is sustaining the (PURITY of the) gaits which we must address first.
>
> However, In past times that means they would have been treated even more carefully, taken longer to be brought to full expression. Extreme brilliance was a result of careful training, progressive lightness, and modulated until the horses body could withstand it. Matinee (center ring Aacehn at 9) was gone away at 10. Poetin (3.3M euro) horse is dead. Gal's last horse to stud (was unstable in its lower joints behind much earlier). It is easy to be wasteful of such wonderful horse talent when there are more coming behind. But the majority of us do not have that kind of $$ to toss away horses.
>
> The kind of expression which is now asked of 4/5/6 yo FEI classes is absurd. And the hunger for viewer to enjoy impure trots a siren call. To ride a young stallion (full of testoserone) in such tension (which is created by the training methods) is to rack havoc physically on the horse first, and on the traditional training system which is all but gone). It is precisely what Reigler/von N/PK/Reiner/Maria Gunther/Zettl/the list goes on forever rail against. Horses in times past were just allowed (measured training) to start to give expression to their GP work. Why? Because lateral flexability was much more important in developing up hill balance, and that takes time!
>
> Perhaps I cannot get past the warmups (or do not want to). They disgust me, and I will leave horse altogether if that is what it now takes to train a horse. I would sincerely hope the riders will 'mature' with age, however EG is following his mentor, and she has done this for 20 years almost now (following her trainer who had only ridden for 3 years at all!!!!!!). What motivation would they have to try traditional training (if the judges/viewers enjoy their results). Do you think AvG/SJ are embarassed by their methods? The only thing they ever want if the method is shown publically is $$ for the images. Their method works for their winning, and the neigh sayers (including heads of the FEI are ignored). Personally, I want (to follow) the depth of hundreds of years of the srs/cadre/etc, as a better guidelines for the nature of the horse. (EVERY horse not just the talented ones.)
>
> As a judge, I feel that the rules were written for a reason, including the FEI statement that it is the judges burden to hold the standards of the classical art. I do not take that lightly. I also did not write the rules about the poll being the highest point, nor the mobility of the jaw (sadly taken out), or the lengths of the stride, etc. But I do ask why so many rules are suddenly (since abou 84) ignored. And as Podhajsky, says the eye is so easily lost and so easily is fooled by flashing gaits. Ballerinas are now being asked to dance because of force, and for me this takes away from what God gives the horse, it dirties the mind and worst of all compromises the ethics.
>
> In working each day in training OF COURSE one must take the talents, the positives and build upon them. That is how horses and riders are advanced easily and correctly. Without tension, saying yes to the rider. That is why the training of people like PK/von N/et al is so methodical. And it is by copying this type of trainer/teacher that we hold standards. They word the hardest behind the scenes. They choose the good of the horse over selling coats/saddles/images. As a teacher I am positive, I am also realistic. I look for the BASICS, and then build upon that. IF there are no basics, or they are ignored, eventually the entire thing falls apart (either the progression or the physical body of the horse). How does one look at the top w/o looking first at the basics? Tell me that. I always say good job for the proper timing and balance with a student, and try again differently when it is not.
>
> For me critique is one thing: This horse has x element, we will work on developing the next thing from this exercises. But when an entire methodology is based on something totally different that we propose as traditional, how are we support it? How does training with the neck taken out of the mix have anything to do with traditional riding? Why is the nature of the horse (generous/giving to a fault/etc) allowed to try to cover up the downside (listed here forever)? Does that not prolong, nee encourage, that style of training? (I can tell you that most show rides now 'assume the position' (copy AvG/ EG/SJ) and EXPECT high scores for doing so. But their horses being of lesser inate quality do more readily show the downside of poor balance. And when we (who are supposedly traditional) agree with it, are we not doig the same thing? What is the reason for EG to ever change/develop if the present methods support very high scores and very big business? The very essence of balance/lightnesss in the bridle are totally different, even the action to the leg is the antithesis of what is traditional. Not only is the curb now held in constant tension/often horizontal, but with it as the outside rein....far different from the starting of horses (a la von N et al) with s.r. to the caveson. The very INTENTION is different: one for the long life, soundness, and good of the horse and the other for $$ and supporting soundness as needed.
>
> Lastly for those who have not ridden the masterworks of both systems, they are nothing the same. And the toss aways from the de jour systems is what I usually see, and they are legend in their numbers (the quoted figure in one country is 50% are sent to slaughter by age 8). Consider carefully what and why something is perceived as it is. Look for substance/basis. Then rave about the rest.
>
> paula
>
> --- In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "mollinameister" <cheesepalace@> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Julie;
> > of course i don't think that you condone abuse.
> > but as an artist i do see a lot of poor art due to lack of understanding of critique.
> > the horse world and the art world has developed an idea that if these people are at the top making the most money they have to be doing it right.
> > history says that isn't especially true (not especially untrue either ;) . The argument of such things as sour grapes is the reason that i posted basically. that shuts off discussion.
> >
> > i was facinated by Dr. Ritter's recent post saying good things about this particular horse up for discussion and for paula's counterpoint. much to learn imho. notice i did not talk about the horse's gaits etc. that is not an area i can give much but muddled opinion but as far as the neccesity of critique and openeness to critism as a powerful force in improving art,... that i have seen. i know a few artists that resent any critisism and they basically don't improve.
> > i am (maybe incorrectly assuming ) that most people are on this list to improve. and open critique imho is an excellent tool.
> >
> > thank you so much for your response
> > i laugh at the thought of anyoone on this list 'for abuse' lol!
> > molly
> >
> > ---
> >
> > In ClassicalDressage@yahoogroups.com, "Julie Williams" <Flytway@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Molly,
> > > Nice post. You had significant things to say in your post, I apologize for
> > > not addressing them all.
> > >
> > > I hope you don't think that those of us who are tired of the constant outcry
> > > against abuse are actually for it. Furthest from the truth. I hate injustice
> > > and cruelty as much as the next gal.
> > >
> > > Not everyone joined this list for the same reason. Not everyone gets the
> > > same thing out of their involvement in the list. My understanding is that
> > > this list was started to study, teach, and further classical dressage
> > > principles and practice. Criticism is not the only method of teaching. For
> > > every horse and rider that is doing 4 things wrong, he might be doing 2
> > > things right. Posters here rarely comment on what looks nice, pleasing,
> > > helpful. I notice lately though that people are doing more positive
> > > comments and I am grateful.
> > >
> > > No one's journey is over yet. We're all in school---including people like
> > > Gal. What he promotes in his 60's and 70's may be different than what he is
> > > doing now. A famous trainer said of another young buck clinician who is
> > > coming up the ranks, "In twenty years he will look back at what he's been
> > > teaching recently and be embarassed, because he will have learned so much
> > > more."
> > >
> > > Julie
>

P
I have no arguement with your post. Thank you for taking the time to
organize your thoughts and a clear and progressional manner. This was
probably one of your more compelling and clear posts on your subjects. Good
stuff.

My one question remains though----how best can any of us impact the current
system, especially if we're are not part of the $$ flow.
******************

If our only true and meaningful method of creating change is by our own
example, then let's take our criticisms of so-and-so-videos and spin them in
a different direction. Instead of railing against the bad training so much,
shouldn't we start giving instruction on how to better build a dressage
horse, following the classical ways?

It still remains that few here have the courage to ask a question about
their own riding problems, or to post a photo/video of their ride in order
to get encouragement and pointers. If we're about education, then let's
educate from the bottom up and do so with a spirit of generosity.

There's another private list I'm on where some of the members have been
discussing this bottom up vs. top down principle. The one fellow, a western
horseman who has been apprenticing under an accomplished and
unkown-to-the-public Mustang trainer, points out that so much of our current
approach to horsemanship and horse training has lost its way because
riders/trainers look at the end package and train with only that as the
visaged goal. They have not learned the process of the finest classical
methods nor the why and what of how you build the horse from the bottom up.
I've given this a lot of thot, he has a point, more because that is
pervasive in our entire Western culture---pick a profession, particularly
the arts. Our artist here mentioned that recently. He goes on to lament the
demise of the apprenticeship program in our culture, altho' there are many
trainers, including JP, who do offer one. Few people have the patience to be
an apprentice, nor some of the financial backing probably necessary.

Borrowing from the Ray Hunt/Parelli/Dorrance group, there is also the
concept of never knocking the curiosity out of the horse; along with keeping
the light softness-----something too often done in training.
Julie W.

>>In working each day in training OF COURSE one must take the talents, the
positives and build upon them. That is how horses and riders are advanced
easily and correctly. Without tension, saying yes to the rider. That is why
the training of people like PK/von N/et al is so methodical. And it is by
copying this type of trainer/teacher that we hold standards. They word the
hardest behind the scenes. They choose the good of the horse over selling
coats/saddles/images. As a teacher I am positive, I am also realistic. I
look for the BASICS, and then build upon that. IF there are no basics, or
they are ignored, eventually the entire thing falls apart (either the
progression or the physical body of the horse). How does one look at the top
w/o looking first at the basics? Tell me that. I always say good job for the
proper timing and balance with a student, and try again differently when it
is not.

What is the reason for EG to ever change/develop if the present methods
support very high scores and very big business? The very essence of
balance/lightnesss in the bridle are totally different, even the action to
the leg is the antithesis of what is traditional. Not only is the curb now
held in constant tension/often horizontal, but with it as the outside
rein....far different from the starting of horses (a la von N et al) with
s.r. to the caveson. The very INTENTION is different: one for the long life,
soundness, and good of the horse and the other for $$ and supporting
soundness as needed.

paula

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