-due to his participation in the club and the lack of mine, I have made Zorak a
founder so that he will have more freedom to do with the site as he wishes.  I
will be reading and watching.

Front Position and bow. Right foot steps out
while fists (upward) cross block (kiai).<br><br>Front
Ball Kick (left) to groin and step forward into a
forward stance. Front punch (right to solar plexus, Front
Ball Kick (right) to groin and step forward into a
forward stance. Front punch (left) to solar
plexus.<br><br>Pivot to rear 180 degrees, left foot steps into a
forward stance as fists (pull upward) cross block. Left
arm downward (#8) block, Front punch *right* to solar
plexus.<br><br>... If you would like more of this kata then join
this club ;-) ... other combinations and such will be
written as well in the future... sorry for my PROLONGED
absence...

Carl,<br><br>I actively listen and read the messages on this club. Not that
anyone posts messages. To bad the founder of this club faded into
oblivion.<br><br>zz

Is anyone actively listening to and reading this club?<br><br>Carl

Dear Kempo friends!<br><br>(I hope the club
Founder will kindly forgive me for this shameless spam
:)<br><br>It is my pleasure to invite you to visit (and,
hopefully, join) a new martial arts club. Whatever, another
club, you might think. Yes and no. It IS a new club,
but not just another karate club out there. Within
less then two weeks we got 41 active members and over
90 outstanding posts. It is entirely dedicated to
karate books, reviews, opinions and discussions. Please
read all posts, and check out the Photos section --
you'll get the idea.<br><br>Like I said, the club is
dedicated to literature about martial arts in general --
history of martial arts, styles, techniques, weapons,
spirituality... Both founders and members is offering a wealth of
information and good advice. Photo gallery and Links section
contain pictures of wonderful books and links to where
such books can be found at unbelievably low prices...
But most importantly, there's always going to be
intelligent conversation, information to share, views and
suggestions to offer. See you
there!<br><br><a href=http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/karatebooksandliterature
target=new>http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/karatebooksandliterature</a><br><br>Your\
s in Kyokushin,<br>Toly

ZZ,<br><br>A question arose recently regarding
combination #19. That combination starts off with a left
shuto block/right front kick - then the left hand
pushes the head down followed by a right downward elbow.
The next part is what's being discussed. So far 3
variations have come up and I'm curious as to which one was
the "base" technique. The three variations
are:<br><br>1) After the elbow the right hand pushes down on the
head while the left hand reaches behind them (to
somewhere on their right hamstring). Cause them to do a
"tiger roll" (really just a forward roll), then control
them and right knife hand strike to the
neck.<br><br>2) After the elbow the right hand pushes down on
their left shoulder while the left hand hooks their
right arm. This causes more of a "long body" roll, but
puts them in almost exactly the same spot as #1 - same
followup strike.<br><br>3) After the elbow, the right hand
grabs the chin and a neck break is
performed.<br><br>Someone has suggested that combinations #18 and #19 were
potentially done when standing against a wall and that the
"roll" in #19 is really pulling them into a
wall.<br><br>I'd like to get any comment you might have on the
above scenarios, especially which one is taught as you
know it.<br><br>Carl

>>Yes, exactly, 3,4, and 5 pinan all have
differences. <br>-----<br>I guess my furstration stems from
which kata to perform. When people ask me to do 3
pinan, do I do "3 pinan A" or "3 pinan
B".<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;If you'd like I could take the time to sit down and
write out a more exact enumeration of the differences
I've observed. I can also do this for 1-5 kata as
well. <br>-----<br>I would love that. Only because I
habitually collect others people's notes on kata I know or
will soon know. Helps in my research. ;) One
interesting note is my 5 pinan is the same as everyone elses
-- so far. There's also a little known 6 pinan that
I don't know, but was about to know. I assume that
the few people that do know it do it the
same.<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;It's also something that I like doing for exactly the
reasons you pointed out - it makes me concentrate on the
forms and think about them in much more detail than I
would if I were just practicing them.<br>-----<br>I
have also found a Japanese style with kempo-length
kata. Of course they have a few very long ones. Some of
the short ones can be combined into a long version
too.<br><br><br>Out of curiousity, what weapons do you teach and when
do you begin instruction. ------<br>During my
training, many, many instructors went through our dojo as
chief instructor. Therefore, we had very little
"official" training in weapons. After talking with the
grandmaster, I discovered that bo staff training begin at
kempo-purple belt level with basics. Then a kata. Later on,
maybe brown, you get another bo kata.<br>Of course, he
said he always taught pilipino eskrima to his students
very early on. This portion of the training hasn't
been seen past GM Cerio's
line.<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;Even though I have many years in the martial arts I'm
not an instructor in Kempo yet, however I am full of
questions regarding the applications of the various
movements of the forms. This is something that we do on a
regular basis in my Isshin Ryu class which is comprised
of about 10-12 black belts (including myself) and
one beginner.<br>------<br>I have become quite fond
of these quesitons so I don't mind. Yer making my
mind work and gathering questions for me to ask GM.
Isshin Ryu black belt, eh? Good for you. One of my good
friends, student and teacher is a Isshin Ryu master. He
has really helped me understand kempo and martial
arts.<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;I am a bit suprised that virtually anyone who
attains a Shodan is allowed to teach or even open their
own school. It's standard practice in Isshin Ryu that
you are not considered a "sensei" until you have at
least attained Sandan.<br>------<br>I'm not surprised,
but I'm also not happy about it. Many of the shodan
that run schools are terrible at the art. I started a
school when I was a sandan. Even then I felt terribly
unprepared and under skilled. But I prevailed. According to
GM, you are a sifu at 4th black. In other words,
you're not a teacher until then.<br>It seems your
mileage will vary with this one.<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;I
take it you're in California somewhere - what part? I
live in New Hampshire. <br>------<br>I'll tell you in
private. I don't want to blast my email to the world. Lord
knows I get enough junk mail to fill a stadium. Email
me at zorak_zoran@... and I'll give you all
the details...and use my regular email
account.<br><br><br>&gt;&gt;As part of some analysis I plan to do this year on
Isshin Ryu forms, I ordered video tapes of several other
styles<br>------<br>I've been doing this also. I think it's a very
valuable tool that we have access to in this generation.
Imagine how good the old timers would be if they could
study other people's arts frame by frame with a verbal
explanation?<br><br>zz Bryan

ZZ,<br><br>Yes, exactly, 3,4, and 5 pinan all
have differences. Why do you say doing 2 versions is
frustrating? I view them simply as different versions of the
same form. The differences really do make them quite
different as far as applications goes, even if they do
"look" very similar.<br><br>If you'd like I could take
the time to sit down and write out a more exact
enumeration of the differences I've observed. I can also do
this for 1-5 kata as well. This isn't a small task.
What I've noticed is that the number of differences
increase with the more "advanced" forms.<br><br>It's also
something that I like doing for exactly the reasons you
pointed out - it makes me concentrate on the forms and
think about them in much more detail than I would if I
were just practicing them.<br><br>Thanksfully, Kempo
forms are quite a bit shorter than my typical Isshin
Ryu forms, which on average are 1.5-4x
longer.<br><br>Out of curiousity, what weapons do you teach and when
do you begin instruction. There is a *wide*
variation here that is decided mostly upon the individual
instructors inclination and training.<br><br>I believe that
classically (i.e. the "standard" for MSDC) Bo is taught at
brown belt, Sword at<br>Shodan, aarg - it's escaping me
now. I know at<br>some point there's a Sai form and a
Kama form. I have formally studied Jo, Bo, Sai, and
Tonfa. I'm looking forward to beginning Kama, perhaps
sometime later this year, but whenever I get to it is
fine, I have plenty of material to work on.<br><br>With
SSDC I learned a Jo staff form as well, which is in
reality one of the more practical weapons, approximated
quite nicely by any "handled" implement like a broom,
shovel, etc. Even though I have many years in the martial
arts I'm not an instructor in Kempo yet (I'm
relatively new in Kempo), however I am full of questions
regarding the applications of the various movements of the
forms. This is something that we do on a regular basis
in my Isshin Ryu class which is comprised of about
10-12 black belts (including myself) and one
beginner.<br><br>I am a bit suprised that virtually anyone who
attains a Shodan is allowed to teach or even open their
own school. It's standard practice in Isshin Ryu that
you are not considered a "sensei" until you have at
least attained Sandan. I should have tested for Nidan
and Sandan when I originally trained, however it was
difficult to schedule the tests back then and rank was
never that important to me. I was allowed to progress
onto new material with the idea that I would simply
test directly for Sandan when the time came. Learning
new material was all that was really important and
the test just never got scheduled - then I left for
college.<br><br>I take it you're in California somewhere - what
part? I live in New Hampshire. My son Josh who will be
turning 7 on January 31st is scheduled to test for Blue
Stripe on January 18th and, if Jonathan (my 4 year old)
keeps at it he may be able to test for his yellow belt
- probably in March. Progression at his age is
*very* slow, however I am suprised at how well Josh has
internalized and even analyzed his material. He's the only
child at the school currently studying weapons
(Nunchaku) because he has the drive and self determination
to learn them and do well with them.<br><br>As part
of some analysis I plan to do this year on Isshin
Ryu forms, I ordered video tapes of several other
styles including Shorin Ryu, some Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu,
Shotokan, and some Kobudo from Panther Productions. I've
also started reading about White Crane Kung Fu - a
book by Dr. Yang. His contention is that most if not
all Okinawan Karate is a decendant or at least
heavily influenced by White Crane. I'll have to get much
deeper into his book before I can make any judgements
but I must say that Dr. Yang is highly respected.
Some of his other books on Chin Na, etc are very
good.<br><br>Carl

You said,<br><br>By the way, those were just
"typical" differences, there are in fact many more small
differences that I have noticed - so many in fact that for
several of the forms, I actually perform them 2 different
ways.<br><br>I have to do the same for 3 and 4 pinan. It's kind
of frustrating to me. In fact, I've grown fond of
both version because they're very interesting and
distinct.<br><br>BTW, thanks for bringing up these points. They really
make me rethink about the art. A very good practice to
start -- analytical thinking about your art. Helps ya
grow.<br><br>I'll ask some of my fellow kempo guys what they think.
All of the local guys do it like me 'cause that's how
I showed them. ;) <br><br>zz

Carl,<br><br>In reference to moving the left foot
rather than the right foot. Both methods move you into
the same position facing 9:00 with the attack coming
from 12:00 as you described. IMHO, one gets you off
the line better than the other.<br><br>That's a very
good point from Shihan Harrill. It makes
sense.<br><br>zz

ZZ,<br><br>By the way, those were just "typical"
differences, there are in fact many more small differences
that I have noticed - so many in fact that for several
of the forms, I actually perform them 2 different
ways.<br><br>Carl

ZZ,<br><br>I appreciate your responses. Just FYI,
the #1 options are from Shaolin Self Defense Centers
out of Long Island, NY. Options #2 are from Masters
of Self Defense Center. <br><br>I believe that SSDC
has kept their forms/etc as close to the Villari
roots as possible, which may be an earlier version of
Cerios forms. MSDC head instructors Shihans Nohelty and
Bryant studied under Cerio after the split so the MSDC
methods might show some of the evolution of the forms.
<br><br>:First 1 Kata - after the trap of the kick, step up,
arms swing, throwing of the leg (I'm not going for
details here) and the guard with the right hand open by
the forehead and left hand open in front of the body
pointing up. The right foot steps forward and a double
knife block is executed in the 9:00 direction. The two
differences I've seen in the next move are: 1) Left hand
comes over right hand in a tiger rake (could be a
block) followed by a right spear hand (both going to
12:00) and 2) Left hand palm block from a punch coming
FROM 12:00 followed by a<br> spear hand.<br> -----<br>
Let me back up a bit. Instead of the right foot
stepping forward, the left foot L-steps back to get off
the center line. Then you can do your double knife
hand blocks.<br> I use option #2, however, it is a
palm trap followed by a spear hand.<br> Both are
directed to 11:00 or 11:30 since you've just removed
yourself from the centerline of his attack. Sinc you're on
the inside you need to<br> aim for his neck. Both
options #1 and #2 seem close enough to the spirit of the
kata to be right -- maybe they're just bunkai
variations.<br> -----<br>That's very interesting. We *definitely*
step in with the right foot and NOT back with the
left. So, we are facing 9:00 now in a horse stance. The
palm block comes around the body and block a punch
coming directly from 12:00, quite a different angle than
that one you're presenting.
Interesting.<br><br>*******************************************<br><br>I attend
seminars in Isshin Ryu in which a very
well respected first generation student (Sensei
Harrill) works on bunkai of various katas. He makes it
quite explicit that once he removes a specfic move from
the kata for analysis, it is no longer part of the
kata and should not be thought of as such. That is, we
should not attempt to reintegrate the different bunkai
into the kata because that would in essence change the
kata. He always says "I'm not authorized to change the
kata". FYI, he is a Shichidan (7th Dan).<br><br>So the
way I see it, from a bunkai standpoint it's
interesting to look at these differences, but, from a style
perspective, there should be one method of performing the
kata. Perhaps the Villari folks have an earlier version
of Cerios forms that continued to evolve. I'll have
to check with some Cerio and Villari people locally
to ferret out the differences.<br><br>Carl

Carl,<br><br>I'm adding my comments after each
question. Understand that my interpretation of kata may be
different from others. Also, any master explaining/doing
kata may differ from mine -- but I'm not a master so
they may be right.<br><br>::First 1 Kata - after the
trap of the kick, step up, arms swing, throwing of the
leg (I'm not going for details here) and the guard
with the right hand open by the forehead and left hand
open in front of the body pointing up. The right foot
steps forward and a double knife block is executed in
the 9:00 direction. The two differences I've seen in
the next move are: 1) Left hand comes over right hand
in a tiger rake (could be a block) followed by a
right spear hand (both going to 12:00) and 2) Left hand
palm block from a punch coming FROM 12:00 followed by
a spear hand.<br>-----<br>Let me back up a bit.
Instead of the right foot stepping forward, the left foot
L-steps back to get off the center line. Then you can do
your double knife hand blocks.<br>I use option #2,
however, it is a palm trap followed by a spear hand. Both
are directed to 11:00 or 11:30 since you've just
removed yourself from the centerline of his attack. Sinc
you're on the inside you need to aim for his neck. Both
options #1 and #2 seem close enough to the spirit of the
kata to be right -- maybe they're just bunkai
variations.<br>-----<br><br>::4 Pinion - After the second side kick elbow strike
(now standing toward 3:00) - #1) turn facing 10:30,
left hand high knife block, right hand ridge to the
groin vs 2) Pivot on both feet facing 12:00 left hand
high knife block, right hand knife strike to the neck.
Note: #2 also appears that it could be a counter for a
grab and/or a throw technique - there are always lots
of options for bunkai.<br>-----<br>This one is
trickier. The first 4 pinan I learned had option #1. The
second version of 4 pinan uses option #2. I would do
whatever the Cerio guys are doing since GM Cerio is the
one who added these kata to the
curriculum.<br>-----<br><br>::Later in 4 Pinan - After the kick punch punch to
4:30
and the second set to 7:30, go into right foot back
cat stance. #1) uses circling tiger blocks while #2)
double block (right palm/left knife) followed by a right
palm heal to the heart region while sinking deeper
into the stance.<br><br>Then repeat the same sequence
with left foot forward and then again right foot
forward.<br>-----<br>Again, I have two versions of this kata. The first 4
pinan I learned had option #1. The second version of 4
pinan uses option #2 sans the palm heel to the heart. I
would do whatever the Cerio guys are doing since GM
Cerio is the one who added these kata to the
curriculum.<br>-----<br><br>I hope this helps. I have a meeting with Sijo
Gascon in March. I'll ask him which way is more correct
than the others.<br><br>zz

Ok, if you don't mind, I have a few questions for
you. Just to let you know, I study under two different
Shaolin Kempo schools, both of whom are offshoots from
the Villari chain. Masters of Self Defense is one of
them and for the most part they don't talk about their
Villari lineage. After the break they linked up with Nick
Cerio and claim that as their lineage. The other school
is Shaolin Self Defense Center. For two schools that
are so close, I'm suprised to see differences in the
forms. It's a few of these differences that I just
wanted to go over - more to see which is closer to the
original form.<br><br>First<br>1 Kata - after the trap of
the kick, step up,<br>arms swing, throwing of the leg
(I'm not going for details here) and the guard with
the right hand open by the forehead and left hand
open in front of the body pointing up. The right foot
steps forward and a double knife block is executed in
the 9:00 direction. The two differences I've seen in
the next move are: 1) Left hand comes over right hand
in a tiger rake (could be a block) followed by a
right spear hand (both going to 12:00) and 2) Left hand
palm block from a punch coming FROM 12:00 followed by
a spear hand.<br><br>4 Pinion - After the second
side kick elbow strike (now standing toward 3:00) -
#1) turn facing 10:30, left hand high knife block,
right hand ridge to the groin vs 2) Pivot on both feet
facing 12:00 left hand high knife block, right hand
knife strike to the neck. Note: #2 also appears that it
could be a counter for a grab and/or a throw technique
- there are always lots of options for
bunkai.<br><br>Later in 4 Pinan - After the kick punch punch to 4:30
and the second set to 7:30, go into right foot back
cat stance. #1) uses circling tiger blocks while #2)
double block (right palm/left knife) followed by a right
palm heal to the heart region while sinking deeper
into the stance. <br><br>Then repeat the same sequence
with left foot forward and then again right foot
forward.<br><br>I hope that I gave a clear enough picture to
visualize the portion of the forms that I'm talkilng about.
There are other differences but I wanted to start off
with these.<br><br>Carl

I have Master Villari's old book and it doesn't
provide any techniques. Just a lot of theory, which is
good IMHO.<br><br>#6 and #7 have a distinct flavor. I
first learned them like you have them. But now, they've
been corrected to the complete way. I'm not saying the
kick only #6 doesn't work or isn't worth knowing. In
fact, that is the combo I first used in a fight long
ago. And it's the one that works so well since
then.<br><br>I study/teach Shaolin Kempo in San Diego. My
instructor is Sijo Sonny Gascon, the fellow who developed
Shaolin Kempo from Kajukenbo. <br><br>zz

I wonder if Villari's book on Shaolin Kempo
documents the combinations. It might be worth the price of
admission just to see what he has to say.<br><br>I have
seen combination #6 taught two different ways, one
with a left hand block (#2 block), one without any
block. Neither school I've been to teaches a block at
all with combination #7. That was why I saw them as
having limited usefulness for knife attacks. Now, if
you're going to add some type of trapping block before
the kick then obviously this really changes the
flavor of the combination quite a bit.<br><br>Where do
you study Shaolin Kempo? I'm at a Masters of Self
Defense Center (in Londonderry, NH).<br><br>Carl

I don't not know of any documentation of the 108
combinations. I wish I did.<br><br>As for the six kata. The
first one I learned starts off with blocks 9 and 10
from the 10 point blocking set. The older six kata
starts with a wrist grab escape and a double punch to
the front. If this doesn't help distinguish the kata
for you, I can find another way of explaining
it.<br><br>As for the knife defenses, the combinations work but
some better than others. That's actually true for many
techniques. Number 6 and 7 have scissor block or gunting that
attacks the forearm and bicep, the kick then penetrates
deeply into the opponent. Of course, the ending of a
knife defense differs from straight fist so you need to
continue controlling the opponent and the knife until you
disarm.<br><br>(disclaimer) your mileage may vary and I can only speak to
what I know of Shaolin kempo. I'm not really an expert
like a grandmaster would be.<br><br>Thanks for
participating on the club.<br><br>zz

ZZ,<br><br>Thanks for the information on the
combinations.<br><br>Are the combinations documented anywhere? I'd like to
have a good reference with all of the 108 combinations
written down. As far as I know there is no such
reference. Hopefully I'm wrong here.<br><br>I currently work
most of the "basic" combinations. Let's see, so far I
still haven't done #23 and #25 but that's
it.<br><br>When you say the original Shaolin Kempo has a
different 6 kata - "which" version are you talking
about?<br><br>I personally like longer katas too. In my Isshin
Ryu class we often take small portions of kata and
work on various applications of them. Many times we
see striking similarities in the techniques between
various forms that we do, which also include forms from
Goju, Shorin, Shotokan and a few others, not to mention
Tai Chi.<br><br>As to combinations 1-26 also being
knife defenses, I do not see how practical they are for
that purpose. Especially combinations such as 6 and
7.<br>We have both of these combinations with no block. It
seems that you are almost guaranteed to get nailed with
a knife on these two combos if the opponent is
anything but a complete moron.<br><br>Carl

Yes, thank you :^)<br><br>Carl

Carl,<br><br>Under the Our Pages banner on the left hand side, there is a link
to "contacts". That's a list of members of this club. Is this what you meant by
a "member list"?<br><br>zz

Carl,<br><br>As far as I know, combinations
27-108 were developed by Fred Villari and his students.
The 6 Kata that most people know was created by Prof.
Pesare, one of Sijo Gascon's students.<br><br>The
original Shaolin Kempo has a different 6 Kata that is
identical to Kajukenbo's 5 Pinan.<br><br>The short kata is
a trait of Kempo. It seems that many of the kata
creators use the kata as drills and thus "distill" many
longer kata down to shorter kata. I personally enjoy the
longer kata but all of the long ones are non-kempo
kata.<br><br>FYI, the combinations 1-26 are also knife
defenses.<br><br>zz

ZZ,<br><br>Thanks for the reply.<br><br>So, who
developed the combinations after 26 then?<br>Same question
for 6 Kata?<br><br>I have noticed that relative to
Isshin Ryu (and therefore Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu and other
styles along that lineage), the Kempo katas are very
short, on the order of 1/2 to 1/3 as long.<br><br>Carl

Hello, Carl,<br><br>There isn't a "members list"
of people in the club because the club has been very
quiet for a long time. In fact, I thought I was the
only one on it.<br><br>I've been in Shaolin Kempo for
over 16 years and it's a great style to study. Over
the last five years, I've also cross trained in Fu
Taijiquan, ninjutsu and others.<br><br>Recently, I met the
founder of the original Shaolin Kempo -- Sijo Victor
Gascon of Hawai'i. I've been working with him since the
beginning of the year and with some of his other students
since 97.<br><br>He's the one who developed
combinations 1-26, kata 1-5 and statue of the
crane.<br><br>thanks for stopping by.<br><br>zz

Hello, I'm curious as to why there isn't a
<br>"members list" of people in the club?<br><br>I am
currently studying Shaolin Kempo at a <br>Masters of Self
Defense Center school in <br>Londonderry, NH and also
pursuing some<br>self teachings in this style. I am an
<br>experienced Isshinryu Stylist as well and also study Yang
Style Tai Chi. I work out on my own<br>a good amount as
well as the time I spend in<br>class.<br><br>My 6 year
old son (Josh) is also studying<br>Shaolin Kempo at
the MSDC and is currently<br>a blue belt (will be up
for promotion to<br>blue stripe in January) and my 4
year old<br>son Jonathan is in the little dragons
class.<br><br>Carl

Check out the karazenpo go shinjutsu association
web site. KGS is the original name of Shaolin Kempo
dating back from the
50s.<br><br><a href=http://karazenpo.com/karazenpo.htm
target=new>http://karazenpo.com/karazenpo.htm</a><br><br>It has a short history
and a bio on the real
founder, Sijo "Sonny Gascon". Besure to learn as much as
possible about your roots.<br><br>zz

Sadistico,<br><br>I was wondering if you knew
anybody (including yourself) who can teach (even via
video) the Lost Leopard, Shaolin Snake and the Immortal
Monkey forms?<br><br>Of course, I'd also be interested
in One Thousand (1000) Buddhas, Branches of The
Falling Pines (White Crane) or Wounded Tigers, too. I
have all the other Black Belt forms.<br><br>If you'd
like, I'll try to get some other people on this list.
It's a shame you don't have others here.
Unfortunately, it was a pain to gain membership. It's taken me
several weeks to get hooked up.<br><br>Hope your still
there,<br><br>Zorak Zoran

lease post message you are interested in... thank you

will accept any questions.  I will answer them to the best of my ability, and
show you where you can get more information on the answers to your
questions.<br>I thank you all for your interest.

ello, <br><br>I unfortunatly will be away for the next few days.  My access to
the computer will be limited.  I will answer any posted questions expediently
upon my return.

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