http://www.philomusica.org/events.htm

This Spring, Philomusica presents

W.A. Mozart Te Deum and Dominican Vespers

and Michael Haydn Requiem in C Minor

2008 Spring Concert



MAY 31, 2008, 8 PM
AND
JUNE 1, 2008, 4 PM

St. Bartholomew's Church, 470 Ryders Lane,East Brunswick, NJ

***************************
i used to sing with thm, but took off this spring.  but i will
listen to them this weekend.  definitely tomorrow, and possbily even
tonight.

-daniel-

p.s. - glad to have run with everyone 3 weeks in a row on saturday.
won't be around enxt weekend, but you should see me again in two
weeks

Run starts at 9 am at Seeley's Pond lot at Watchung this Sunday, June 1.
We will run 7.25 miles (about 65 minutes or so).

Trail shoes encouraged. Despite recent rains and more for Saturday, the
trails are in fantastic shape there.

Please note: this particular run will start promptly at 9 am because
Trink
and I have an afternoon commitment in Jersey City to make.

-Rolf

I was referring to insulting personal e-mails, usually anonymous, that
I get in response to some of my posts.  You would think that whoever is
sending them would realize that I am not going to shut up.

Most of the people who put up posts here are serious, competitive
runners.  Nothing wrong with that but I have a different perspective on
things sometimes and like to state my opinion.

Peace & love to all.

Ken

Ken,

I hope you are not taking any of the comments here as a personal
insult, that is not nor has it ever been the intent.If someone has
insulted your running abilities then they are out of place and out of
line. This thread is about accuracy and putting on races that are
good first class events. Wether or not a person is a competative
runner has nothing to do with doing the right thing.If folks don't
care about times, thats cool but many of us do and we have a voice. I
will not do races that do not do right by the runners, just as I will
not tolerate folks who bandit races because they think it just
doesn't matter. It DOES matter. In my opinion, wether a person is a
bandit and STEALS a race or wether a race director is lazy/cheap and
puts on an event that is 2nd rate...it is the same deal. we are not
getting what we pay for.

--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@...> wrote:
>
> Ken,
>
>
>
> Even when it is more than a hobby, I would hope people would keep
it in
> perspective and not need to get crazed about something that is not
life and
> death.  Anyone who pointed out to you that you feel the way you do
because
> you don't run well anymore has lost the all important sense of
perspective.
>
>
>
> Joe Lanzalotto
>
>
>
>
>
> BTW - for those of you who kindly pointed out that I feel the way I
> do because I don't run well anymore, I felt the same way when I
raced
> at a 7:00 - 7:15 pace and was shooting for PR's at almost every
> race. I always looked at running as a hobby but to many of you it
is
> obviously much more than that.
>
> Ken
>

The "Train"ing Run is primarily a RVRR social event where we get to run
together, finish together and party together. It is a chance for Wednesday
night runners to meet Saturday morning runners. It is a chance for the 10:30
a mile runners to finish with the 7:30 a mile runners. It is a chance for
those just starting out in this sport and running 2.3 miles to be motivated
by those who ran 34.1 miles.
Our event is always held on National Trails Day because we run on trails
every week of the year. We are doing our part to promote public awareness of
the trails and the need to keep them clean.
We added the fund raising aspect for cancer research to respond to a need
greater than ourselves and to help fight a disease that will impact at least
a third of us. Many of us got to see Paul Krentar at a club meeting a week
before he died. As club member Rita Musanti said, "For those of you who
witnessed Paul's struggle, you understand why it is so important that we do
all we can to help cancer patients and survivors maintain their quality of
life".
Per suggestion below and if you are so inclined and can't make the event,
send a $12 check, payable to Cancer Institute of New Jersey, and mail to me
at 71 Central Ave, East Brunswick, NJ 08816. More importantly, if you can
make it, come on out on June 7th. and celebrate walking, running and life.
Do it for yourself and do it for Paul.

http://www.cinj.org/

Rayp.

-----Original Message-----
From: Weidmann, Richard Mr CTR USA AMC [mailto:Richard.Weidmann@...]

Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:56 PM
To: Ray Petit
Subject: RE: Cumulative Mileage on 'Train'ing Run

Great!  Unfortunately I can't make the run this year, due to vacation.
Could you post to the yahoogroup a message indicating how those who want
to can contribute to the charitable cause whether they run or not?

Thanks---Rich

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Petit [mailto:raypetit@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 6:51 PM
To: Weidmann, Richard Mr CTR USA AMC
Cc: Gene Gugliotta
Subject: FW: Cumulative Mileage on 'Train'ing Run

Rich:

Per email below, Paul accomplished his goal.



Ray



From: Paul Krentar [mailto:pkrentar@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2007 11:28 AM
To: raypetit@...
Subject: Cumulative Mileage on 'Train'ing Run



Ray,   When you get a chance, could you put cumulative mileage on the
rvrr.org website?  People close to a century mark need to know, I need
to know.   pk

HUH????????




--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "ken_mangin" <ken_mangin@...> wrote:
>
> I would guess that a race like Spring Lake would have a relatively
> high percentage of lost chips since many of the participants are
> casual runners.  As Rose said, chips are optional at the Rutgers
Big
> Chill but I believe that the first year that they used chips they
> were used by everyone.  After I finished and turned in my chip, I
> went back to the finish line area to wait for some friends.  All of
> the finishers were herded to an area to turn in their chips but
many
> people ducked under the ropes and started to leave the area.  I
> stopped as many people as I could and told them to turn in their
> chips.  Many of the people said that they didn't even remember that
> they had the chip on their shoe and others said that they thought
> that they got to keep it.  There were signs all over the place
about
> the need to return the chips and the people handing out the chips
> before the race made it clear that they had to be returned but many
> people still did not know what to do.  Experienced racers know what
> to do of course but people who rarely race seem to get kind of
> overwhelmed by everything.
>
> It has been interesting for me to follow this thread and see how
> seriously many of you take all of this.  I do a lot of volunteering
> at both running and non-running events.  At almost every race, I
get
> yelled at by several people, usually about a trivial problem that
is
> easily resolved.  In years of volunteering at non-running events, I
> have NEVER been yelled at by anyone.  Many of the events cost a lot
> more than races but if something goes wrong the person with the
> problem seems almost apologetic at having to ask for help.  I never
> really understood why that is but it makes more sense to me now.
>
> BTW - for those of you who kindly pointed out that I feel the way I
> do because I don't run well anymore, I felt the same way when I
raced
> at a 7:00 - 7:15 pace and was shooting for PR's at almost every
> race.  I always looked at running as a hobby but to many of you it
is
> obviously much more than that.
>
> Ken
>

I would guess that a race like Spring Lake would have a relatively
high percentage of lost chips since many of the participants are
casual runners.  As Rose said, chips are optional at the Rutgers Big
Chill but I believe that the first year that they used chips they
were used by everyone.  After I finished and turned in my chip, I
went back to the finish line area to wait for some friends.  All of
the finishers were herded to an area to turn in their chips but many
people ducked under the ropes and started to leave the area.  I
stopped as many people as I could and told them to turn in their
chips.  Many of the people said that they didn't even remember that
they had the chip on their shoe and others said that they thought
that they got to keep it.  There were signs all over the place about
the need to return the chips and the people handing out the chips
before the race made it clear that they had to be returned but many
people still did not know what to do.  Experienced racers know what
to do of course but people who rarely race seem to get kind of
overwhelmed by everything.

It has been interesting for me to follow this thread and see how
seriously many of you take all of this.  I do a lot of volunteering
at both running and non-running events.  At almost every race, I get
yelled at by several people, usually about a trivial problem that is
easily resolved.  In years of volunteering at non-running events, I
have NEVER been yelled at by anyone.  Many of the events cost a lot
more than races but if something goes wrong the person with the
problem seems almost apologetic at having to ask for help.  I never
really understood why that is but it makes more sense to me now.

BTW - for those of you who kindly pointed out that I feel the way I
do because I don't run well anymore, I felt the same way when I raced
at a 7:00 - 7:15 pace and was shooting for PR's at almost every
race.  I always looked at running as a hobby but to many of you it is
obviously much more than that.

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: sdbrenner [mailto:webwiz@...]
Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 09:32 AM
To: rvrr@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [RVRR] (Horse's Mouth Update) Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?

Wow, I had no idea my comment would spark such an interesting discussion! Before I provide a quick update, I'd like to chime in that a less-than-accurately measured course and no official timing/scoring is fine for a fun run, as long as those things are made crystal clear on the entry form. But any race that charges $25-30, has a USATF-certified course, and offers prizes should understand the expectation runners will have, then ensure they do things properly. OK, that said, I'll relay a summary of the e-mail conversation I've been having with a guy from Elite Racing Systems, which handles part of the SL5 race. The first thing he explained was that Elite was not responsible for the actual timing and other finish line stuff; another company did that. He said he's been suggesting to the SL5 organizers for several years that they start using the chip. Their reluctance is all about the money. Their big concern is "non-returned chips" and they estimate a 5-10% non-return rate for Spring Lake, translating into $15,000- $30,000 in losses. I countered this claim with a comment that many of the chip races I've done required a ~$30 deposit that I only get back if I return my chip. (Can anyone else corroborate this?) I'm sure a *few* chips don't make their way back home, but I'd bet that with a $$$ incentive, most people would return them. So I'm not buying the $15-30K claim. I think the real solution is to borrow one of the highway toll booth readers - then we can all just carry our EZ-Passes while we run! Scott webwiz@gmail.com

That is what I feared...oh well. Kinda supports the other thread about
changing the infrastructure to get away from cars. Once again I'm probably
forced to drive. Typical.

Pete

> Pete,
>
> There is no New Jersey Transit train on Sat morning early enough to get to
> Trenton by 5:25am.??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ironpete@...
> To: rvrr@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, 29 May 2008 9:32 am
> Subject: [RVRR] Train Run - Transport to Trenton for 9:30 pacers?
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Just a question to the group. I know there is transportation to Trenton
> for the 8:30 runners, but what about the 9:30 runners? I'll be doing the
> whole thing this year, and I have the potential to go 8:30 mile pace, but
> that would mean a lot of time to recover for the week afterward and I want
> to keep the internal damage to a minimum, if you know what I mean.
>
> If none is set up yet, how many of you out there who are doing the whole
> thing want to go at a 9:30 pace? If there are a lot, maybe we can arrange
> something ourselves to get to the starting point by 5:25AM.
>
> I'll be doing my part here to arrange something...one possibility is to
> take the train from either Edison or New Brunswick to Trenton and make our
> way to the start. It's an extra 1.5 miles I think, and would require
> waking up at the wee hours of the morning, but would be possible.
>
> *****************************
>
> "Transcendence is the innate ability of all human beings to go way, way,
> WAY beyond their current limits." - Anonymous
>
> *****************************
> Coach Pete Priolo
> Tri-State Triathlon and Fitness
> Phone: 908-229-9687
> Blog: www.ironpete.blogspot.com
> E-mail: ironpete@...
> Web: www.ironpete.com
>
>
>
>

Hi Ed:

I'm leaning against this idea. This is a temporary fix to a permanent
condition. High gas prices is not as temporary as many people think and I
don't think this club can support this forever.

As for the general attitude of high gas prices and such, people are
finally starting to look at themselves and change habits to accomodate the
higher prices. This is very good and I knew that this would happen. The
problem is that we as a country do not have an infrastructure to support
high gas prices.

To give you a very good example, I live on Staten Island. I would love to
take my bike instead of my car to the run but it is not possible because
there are no functional walkways on the Goethals or Outerbridge to support
riding my bike.

Guys, I hate to say this, but I repeat that the high gas prices are a
permanant condition. We will not ever see gas go down under $3 per gallon
unless some miraculous new cheap form of energy is found. We as a club
cannot subsidize members' gas bills forever. Hopefully the government will
start very soon to take their collective heads out of the sand and start
building the infrastructure to support high gas prices because it's going
to take a lot of time to develop it and we really don't have much time
left.

If you want to see an infrastructure built on high gas prices, go to
Europe. They have lanes to support bikes, laws to protect motor scooters,
many bike racks for people to chain their bikes, train is the chief
transport of people instead of plane, and train is the chief transport of
freight and goods instead of truck. That is where we must be in about 3-4
years or we will definitely feel the hurt.

Just my 2 cents.

*****************************

"Transcendence is the innate ability of all human beings to go way, way,
WAY beyond their current limits." - Anonymous

*****************************
Coach Pete Priolo
Tri-State Triathlon and Fitness
Phone: 908-229-9687
Blog: www.ironpete.blogspot.com
E-mail: ironpete@...
Web: www.ironpete.com


> It is obvious to the board of directors of this great running club of
> ours that we are living in troubled times. The housing market has
> crashed, the price of food is on the rise as is almost everything
> else. Our beloved president ( the one in D.C.) seems to be in hiding,
> counting the days until his term is over (as are we all) so that he
> can really make big bucks on the lecture circuit.  More importantly,
> the attendance at our Wednesday night runs and Saturday tow path runs
> is down. We think we know the reason. Hence, the reason for this
> email.  It's the ever spiraling price of gasoline. After all, can any
> of us afford to spend $40, $50 or $60 dollars a gallon to fill up our
> tanks. I know I can't. So what are we to do?  Well, as treasurer of
> this fine organization, the board has decided to help out our members
> to come and join us for runs. Because we are swimming in cash, we have
> decided to pay part of your gas money that you would use coming to our
> runs. It's going to be on a tier basis....that is, if you travel 5
> miles and back to get to the two path for a run we will pay for your
> gas. If you travel 10 miles, then we will pay for 3/4 of your gas used
> to get to and from the runs. 15 miles would be a 50% reimbursement
> etc.  and so on and so on.   Of course you would have to submit a
> voucher and receipt and some sort of proof of exactly how many miles
> you actually did drive to come to our run. And we would of course, do
> a google earth map search to verify everyones mileage, not because we
> don't trust you, but because  we have nothing better to do and some of
> us get our jollies from this. There are runners out there that might
> try and take advantage of this system and make an extra few bucks on
> this very, very, very, generous offer by your board of directors. I am
> not naming names but if I did, one name would be Ed and thats all I
> will say on that matter.
>
> So, what does everyone think?  Is this a good idea?  If enough of you
> think it's a good idea , we will of course have to scrap it entirely
> as we are not that rich.   			 :-)) 	 :-)) 	 :-))
>
> (This email has been a production of Tongue in cheek gags,
> Inc...........you didn't really think I was serious, did you?    Got
> you huh    :-))
>
> Anyone think that I have way too much time on my hands?

I learned years ago not to take the Spring Lake 5 miler seriously.
After a few years of running that race, it became clear that it is a
free for all, very few runners following the "rules" as it were. The
tee shirts and prizes were amazing, but after a while, that became not
worth it either.
A great race to run on Memorial Day weekend is the North Brunswick
Memorial Day 5k (it would be great if it were a 5 miler) now held at
the beautiful Community Park on Route 130 South. It was a lovely day, a
well-organized race, with super prizes and great people, including a
wonderful turn out by RVRR.
A part of the Brunswick Cup Series, it was a fabulous way to spend the
early holiday morning!
leah brown klein

Wow, I had no idea my comment would spark such an interesting
discussion!  Before I provide a quick update, I'd like to chime in
that a less-than-accurately measured course and no official
timing/scoring is fine for a fun run, as long as those things are made
crystal clear on the entry form.  But any race that charges $25-30,
has a USATF-certified course, and offers prizes should understand the
expectation runners will have, then ensure they do things properly.

OK, that said, I'll relay a summary of the e-mail conversation I've
been having with a guy from Elite Racing Systems, which handles part
of the SL5 race.  The first thing he explained was that Elite was not
responsible for the actual timing and other finish line stuff; another
company did that. He said he's been suggesting to the SL5 organizers
for several years that they start using the chip.  Their reluctance is
all about the money.

Their big concern is "non-returned chips" and they estimate a 5-10%
non-return rate for Spring Lake, translating into $15,000- $30,000 in
losses.  I countered this claim with a comment that many of the chip
races I've done required a ~$30 deposit that I only get back if I
return my chip.  (Can anyone else corroborate this?)  I'm sure a *few*
chips don't make their way back home, but I'd bet that with a $$$
incentive, most people would return them.  So I'm not buying the
$15-30K claim.

I think the real solution is to borrow one of the highway toll booth
readers - then we can all just carry our EZ-Passes while we run!

Scott
webwiz@...

Just a question to the group. I know there is transportation to Trenton
for the 8:30 runners, but what about the 9:30 runners? I'll be doing the
whole thing this year, and I have the potential to go 8:30 mile pace, but
that would mean a lot of time to recover for the week afterward and I want
to keep the internal damage to a minimum, if you know what I mean.

If none is set up yet, how many of you out there who are doing the whole
thing want to go at a 9:30 pace? If there are a lot, maybe we can arrange
something ourselves to get to the starting point by 5:25AM.

I'll be doing my part here to arrange something...one possibility is to
take the train from either Edison or New Brunswick to Trenton and make our
way to the start. It's an extra 1.5 miles I think, and would require
waking up at the wee hours of the morning, but would be possible.

*****************************

"Transcendence is the innate ability of all human beings to go way, way,
WAY beyond their current limits." - Anonymous

*****************************
Coach Pete Priolo
Tri-State Triathlon and Fitness
Phone: 908-229-9687
Blog: www.ironpete.blogspot.com
E-mail: ironpete@...
Web: www.ironpete.com

Gene -

That method of trying to make browsers cooperate is cheating - if you
don't do it the hard way, it doesn't count... :)

Susanna

--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "William Hulbert" <bsoccer107@...> wrote:
>
> All:
>
> I have updated the Training Run Website
> <http://rvrr.org/towpath_train/index.htm>   to include all the miles run
> during the events history (1999-2007).  I have ordered the table by Last
> Name this year.
>
> And now for the surprise - I have also added a new table to show our 3
> digit mile total runners AKA runners who have run at least a hundred
> miles.  To get to the top of this list I only have to run 236 miles this
> year to surpass the king of the towpath, Chris Lehman - congrats Chris.
>
> Let me know if anybody would like to see more tables or anything else or
> if there are problems with it.  Stayed tuned after the sig for nitty
> gritty technical details.
>
> -Bill Sly the Web Guy (just made that up)
>
> Tested the website in firefox 2.0, safari 3.1, and IE 7.0 and the tables
> worked well enough.  At a low resolution, IE drops the one table below
> the other.  Firefox has an extra line on the right of the first table I
> couldn't get rid of.  Its a start though.  Let me know if the tables are
> completely messed up on anybody else's box.  Thanks.
>

Thanks for that info Gene. Still it seems like nominal portion and a
worthwhile investment at the cost of 1.25 per person, especially if
that gets included in the registration price.

--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "Gene Gugliotta" <thinnmann@...> wrote:
>
> So I had an online conversation with Dave Siconolfi of CompuScore -
>
>  me:  hi dave - in the wake of the spring lake timing and scoring
mass
> > inaccuracy, there is an interesting discussion going on in the
RVRR email
> > yahoo group.
> >  Sent at 1:30 PM on Wednesday
> >  me:  joe lanzalotto was wondering why scoring companies with
chips didn't
> > simply default to using chips for ALL races at this point in
time.  He was
> > thinking all investment costs were absorbed by now and it
shouldn't cost any
> > more to do chip scoring than hand scoring.  I suggested it was
because there
> > was more post-race man hours involved in reorganizing the chips,
plus there
> > just isn't enough equipment go go around to all the races yet,
so supply and
> > demand compels the scoring companies to charge more for chip
races.
> > I am going to forward the thread to you and it would be really
cool if you
> > added some explanation to the discussion.
> >  Sent at 1:34 PM on Wednesday
> >  David:  Gene, thanks for the info.  More of my races are moving
to chips
> > but not all.  We still have to pay $1.00 per entry for chip
rental.  Which
> > makes chip scoring higher than barcode scoring.  Also lost chips
need to be
> > replaced.  I typically move to chip when entries get over 300.
The smaller
> > events are still easier with barcodes .  I have bought more
equipment so we
> > can start moving more races to chip.
> >  Sent at 1:45 PM on Wednesday
> >  me:  awesome - so is it championchip that still gets $1 per
chip for
> > rental?
> >  Sent at 1:48 PM on Wednesday
> >  me:  ...and can i forward your quote?
> >  Sent at 1:53 PM on Wednesday
> >  David:  You can forward the quote.  The latest word I am
getting from
> > ChampionChip USA is there will be an increase from $1 to 1.25
because they
> > have pay CC World in Euro's.  They are located in the
Netherlands.
> >  Sent at 2:24 PM on Wednesday
> >
>
>
> On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:48 AM, Gene Gugliotta <thinnmann@...>
wrote:
>
> > I don't "Know" - but here is what I think:
> >
> > The scoring company charges more to put the chip scored race
on.  Capital
> > outlay be damned, it is supply and demand that rules the
economic system.
> > If a company can continue to charge more for a chip race and get
the money,
> > they will.  And they should - that's capitalism.
> >
> > Don't forget there is a lot more post-race work for a chip
scored race.
> > After each race, you have to sort all those chips by scanning
them again or
> > reading the fine print, and put them back in those little
envelopes with the
> > zip ties; a very time consuming chore.  And there is the issue of
> > not-returned chips to deal with.  Next, get all those little
envelopes back
> > in order and associate them with numbers again.  O yea, if it is
Saturday,
> > do that all by the next day for Sunday's race!
> >
> > Get the costs down by having more scoring companies that do a
good job
> > using chips.  Good luck with that.
> >
> > Gene
> >
> >
> > On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:00 AM, Joe Lanzalotto <j.lanza@...>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>    So here's a question I cannot get a straight answer to nor
can I
> >> understand:  why does it cost MORE to put on a chip race?  Yes,
I understand
> >> that the chips and he "reader" must be paid for.  A capital
outlay in
> >> corporate terms that gets spread over the life of the
equipment.  However,
> >> isn't that cost spread over so many races that it is
negligible?  Isn't the
> >> cost offset by not needing hoards of people on hand to direct
runners into
> >> chutes and handle spindles?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm not sure that I buy that there is actual, incremental cost
incurred by
> >> whoever is doing the timing and race management.  There simply
might end up
> >> being a cost charged by that company to the race "owners".
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyone know?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Joe
> >>
> >
>

 me:  hi dave - in the wake of the spring lake timing and scoring mass inaccuracy, there is an interesting discussion going on in the RVRR email yahoo group.
 Sent at 1:30 PM on Wednesday
 me:  joe lanzalotto was wondering why scoring companies with chips didn't simply default to using chips for ALL races at this point in time.  He was thinking all investment costs were absorbed by now and it shouldn't cost any more to do chip scoring than hand scoring.  I suggested it was because there was more post-race man hours involved in reorganizing the chips, plus there just isn't enough equipment go go around to all the races yet, so supply and demand compels the scoring companies to charge more for chip races.
I am going to forward the thread to you and it would be really cool if you added some explanation to the discussion.
 Sent at 1:34 PM on Wednesday
 David:  Gene, thanks for the info.  More of my races are moving to chips but not all.  We still have to pay $1.00 per entry for chip rental.  Which makes chip scoring higher than barcode scoring.  Also lost chips need to be replaced.  I typically move to chip when entries get over 300.  The smaller events are still easier with barcodes .  I have bought more equipment so we can start moving more races to chip.
 Sent at 1:45 PM on Wednesday
 me:  awesome - so is it championchip that still gets $1 per chip for rental?
 Sent at 1:48 PM on Wednesday
 me:  ...and can i forward your quote?
 Sent at 1:53 PM on Wednesday
 David:  You can forward the quote.  The latest word I am getting from ChampionChip USA is there will be an increase from $1 to 1.25 because they have pay CC World in Euro's.  They are located in the Netherlands.
 Sent at 2:24 PM on Wednesday

I'm awaiting the one down here in Philadelphia. It was timed. They
used the same exact procedure that is being discussed with Spring
Lake.

In fact, it is the same company that has done the Princeton one for
years. Philadelphia's is much much larger than the Princeton one.

--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, adele pudner <adele1214@...> wrote:
>
> Mike,
>   Which Race for the Cure are you awaiting results?  I recently
ran the inaugural one in Newark and found out--afterwards--that it
was not timed.  There was a clock and awards, so why would I think
otherwise?
>
>   I have run the one in Princeton for years and that was always
timed.  They even mailed home your results.  The Newark race was not
advertised as a Fun Run.
>   Adele
>
> Mike <popactionart@...> wrote:
>           I know I continue to bring in Philadelphia events into
the
> discussion but I had an interesting email from Bill of Bestrace
> today as I asked about the timetable for Race for the Cure Results
> going up (since it is holding up awards...even for my 3rd place
> which I could use to buy some needed new trainers) and why there
are
> not chips used. And what he said goes to the 'mobile party'
> aspect....he asked them about using chips before but they do not
> want to incur the extra costs, (Mind you this is a single event
that
> raises millions of dollars), and additionally what they said
> was....it is not a competitive race. (Yet, the prizes are good
> enough to bring out some serious guns.) Chew on that one.
>
> And he is still waiting on information from them as he has been
> having to get information from the pull tags.
>
> --- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@> wrote:
> >
> > So here's a question I cannot get a straight answer to nor can I
> understand:
> > why does it cost MORE to put on a chip race? Yes, I understand
> that the
> > chips and he "reader" must be paid for. A capital outlay in
> corporate terms
> > that gets spread over the life of the equipment. However, isn't
> that cost
> > spread over so many races that it is negligible? Isn't the cost
> offset by
> > not needing hoards of people on hand to direct runners into
chutes
> and
> > handle spindles?
> >
> >
> >
> > I'm not sure that I buy that there is actual, incremental cost
> incurred by
> > whoever is doing the timing and race management. There simply
> might end up
> > being a cost charged by that company to the race "owners".
> >
> >
> >
> > Anyone know?
> >
> >
> >
> > Joe
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rvrr@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of
> > dragonladyrvrr
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:31 AM
> > To: rvrr@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> >
> >
> >
> > Joe is absolutly right and I agree with everything he hs said
> whole
> > heartedly. Wether I pay a "toy" (big chill) or $136 (ing nyc) I
> > expect the race to be accurate. If the race calls itself a "fun"
> run,
> > then maybe it isn't soo critical. Spring Lake isn't a "Fun" run.
> It
> > is a race with a long standing reputation. Now..........as for
> chip
> > timing, it would only cost a few $'s more per runner, I think
> approx
> > $3/person which could easily be passed on to us and as you know
> this
> > race sells out every year, so that shouldn't be an issue. What
> > appears to me to be going on is that the race folk want to hang
on
> to
> > every $$ that is made. Again stop cheaping out and do the right
> > thing. This is not the first year that this has happened at
Spring
> > Lake and won't be the last. Trying to spindle score 9000 runners
> is
> > absurd even with select timing, as seen by having 2 shoots open
on
> > the mens side at the same time.......Which spindle goes first???
> > If my time was only off by the 3 sec, I wouldn't let it bother
me
> but
> > the 10 places, THAT bothered me.
> > Ray made a comment that "stuff happens", such as
> > liberty....bullshit. Maybe he doesn't mind but I know of one
> > nationally ranked athlete there who ran a record time in the
> event,
> > and ran a race beyond belief.....they got royally screwed and
the
> > time won't count because the race was short. Maybe he isn't
> capable
> > of that type of performance but this person was, and that was
way
> > unfair to them.
> > Spring Lake isn't put on by rank amatures and novices. The folk
> > who organize and run SL5 are very compatent and knowledgeable.
> they
> > have been doing this for a long time and are good at putting
races
> > on. that being said............they need to step up to the plate
> and
> > make this race the best that it is and that it can be. Go
> > to "Championchip"(charge $3 extra) and maybe allow (for a fee)
> late
> > transfers (I heard that this was also a problem, injured folks
> > letting other gender runners use their bibs). Marine Corp closes
> out
> > early same as SL5 and charges to change bib over. Easy money to
be
> > made say up to the last 2 weeks prior to race day.
> > The solutions are there, they just need to be put in motion. But
> > the "shit happens" attitude is bullshit lazy and indicitive of
an
> I
> > don't give a rats attitude about anybody but my personal belief
> > systems.
> >
> > --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com>
com, "Joe
> > Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@> wrote:
> > >
> > > This has nothing whatever to do with certification of course.
> This
> > all
> > > about race management and what a runner who pays the $25 or so
> has
> > a right
> > > to expect in return. I do not think it is asking too much that
> the
> > race
> > > tell you accurately what your time and place were.
> > >
> > > Stuff happens? It does, but I would expect the race management
> to
> > step
> > > forward, take accountability for the mistakes and make every
> effort
> > to
> > > rectify the situation. Maybe they are doing that, maybe not.
All
> I
> > was
> > > saying and will continue to say is that my entry fee buys me
> those
> > rights.
> > >
> > > Not so revolutionary.
> > >
> > > Joe
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com]
On
> Behalf
> > Of Ray
> > > Petit
> > > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:02 AM
> > > To: RVRR Newsgroup
> > > Subject: Re: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > >
> > > Joe:
> > > Both the 5K and 10K courses in East Brunswick are USATF
> certified as
> > > accurate. I have run many races, including North Brunswick 5K
> > yesterday,
> > > that is more or less accurate. Stuff happens. Remember Liberty
> Half
> > 2 years
> > > ago?
> > >
> > > Ray
> > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: "Joe Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@>
> > >
> > > Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:45:37
> > > To:<rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com>
> > > Subject: RE: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > >
> > >
> > > Wow! A little dissention in the ranks. Not great.
> > >
> > > Look, you pay your money and it isn't cheap there are a basic
> set of
> > > requirements, one of which is that they get your time/place
> right.
> > Not a lot
> > > to ask. Doesn't matter if you are a serious racer or someone
> out
> > for a fun
> > > run or just want to run for the social aspect of things. If
> there
> > isn't a
> > > requirement of timing and keeping track of place, then why
> bother?
> > Might as
> > > well stay on the towpath and time yourself.
> > >
> > > Joe Lanzalotto
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com]
On
> Behalf
> > Of Ray
> > > Petit
> > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:41 PM
> > > To: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > > Subject: RE: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I am going to ignore this message, as I do everything you
write.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com]
On
> Behalf
> > Of
> > > dragonladyrvrr
> > > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:47 PM
> > > To: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > > Subject: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > "I haven't run Spring Lake in over 10 years, but when did it
> become
> > > a "serious race"? My bet is that half the runners don't even
> check
> > > their finish time. This event is probably their PR for 2008
> > because
> > > it is the only race that many of them will do this year."
> > >
> > > I can't believe that someone who is a race director and who
> knows
> > the
> > > importance of accuracy in a race is saying that it isn't a
> serious
> > > race and most folk won't care since they don't race regular. A
> > race
> > > is a race and we pay for accuracy, many folk trust the race
> staff
> > > without question and blindly accept what is given to them, but
> > that
> > > doesn't make it right. I wonder how many runners would still
do
> > the
> > > event if it wasn't timed at all...maybe that is an option, if
> most
> > > folk don't care if the mile splits are accurate, if the race
is
> 5
> > > miles or 4.5 miles, who cares who finishes in top
> 100,,,,,,because
> > it
> > > just doesn't matter....Right???
> > > So just for the record......Is East Brunswick 10k a "Serious"
> race
> > or
> > > not?????
> > >
> > > --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com>
> > com, "Mike"
> > > <popactionart@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Try the mess with Bestrace doing the Philadelphia Race for
the
> > Cure
> > > > event that had over 21,000 people and no chip timing. (Many
> are
> > > saying
> > > > 40,000 but I doubt that.) Two weeks later and the results
> still
> > > aren't
> > > > official. And because of that, they are not releasing the
> prizes
> > to
> > > > the top finishers yet.
> > > >
> > > > --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com>
> > com, "Gene
> > > Gugliotta" <thinnmann@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I don't think this went out properly...
> > > > >
> > > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > > From: njbiathlonevents <njbiathlonevents@>
> > > > > Date: Mon, May 26, 2008 at 5:52 PM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > > > > To: rvrr-owner@yahoogro <mailto:rvrr-owner%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
> > ups.com
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Yup, they were really off with the results, especially
with
> the
> > > > > places. They had my finish time about right (off by maybe
two
> > > > > seconds) but I was handed an 81st place card at the finish
> and
> > > they
> > > > > have it posted as 89th in the results. If they are off by
> that
> > > much
> > > > > with Cheryl and me, in the top 100, imagine how off the
> > results
> > > must
> > > > > be by the 3000th finisher! Yikes!
> > > > > Chip timing is the way to go for this many people, but is
> there
> > > > > enough incentive for them to do it when they can get
10,000
> > > runners
> > > > > to sign up in February without chips?!
> > > > > Congrats to everyone who braved the crowd and enjoyed the
> nice
> > > > > weather there.
> > > > > What a great weekend!
> > > > > Chris
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > All posts to the RVRR Yahoo! group are the sole responsibility
> of
> > the person
> > > posting and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
> positions
> > of The
> > > Raritan Valley Road Runners or its members. This is an opt-in
> > group where
> > > all users have the right to share their own personal opinions
and
> > > observations.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> >
>

I know I continue to bring in Philadelphia events into the
discussion but I had an interesting email from Bill of Bestrace
today as I asked about the timetable for Race for the Cure Results
going up (since it is holding up awards...even for my 3rd place
which I could use to buy some needed new trainers) and why there are
not chips used. And what he said goes to the 'mobile party'
aspect....he asked them about using chips before but they do not
want to incur the extra costs, (Mind you this is a single event that
raises millions of dollars), and additionally what they said
was....it is not a competitive race. (Yet, the prizes are good
enough to bring out some serious guns.) Chew on that one.

And he is still waiting on information from them as he has been
having to get information from the pull tags.

--- In rvrr@yahoogroups.com, "Joe Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@...> wrote:
>
> So here's a question I cannot get a straight answer to nor can I
understand:
> why does it cost MORE to put on a chip race? Yes, I understand
that the
> chips and he "reader" must be paid for. A capital outlay in
corporate terms
> that gets spread over the life of the equipment. However, isn't
that cost
> spread over so many races that it is negligible? Isn't the cost
offset by
> not needing hoards of people on hand to direct runners into chutes
and
> handle spindles?
>
>
>
> I'm not sure that I buy that there is actual, incremental cost
incurred by
> whoever is doing the timing and race management. There simply
might end up
> being a cost charged by that company to the race "owners".
>
>
>
> Anyone know?
>
>
>
> Joe
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: rvrr@yahoogroups.com [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
> dragonladyrvrr
> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 6:31 AM
> To: rvrr@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
>
>
>
> Joe is absolutly right and I agree with everything he hs said
whole
> heartedly. Wether I pay a "toy" (big chill) or $136 (ing nyc) I
> expect the race to be accurate. If the race calls itself a "fun"
run,
> then maybe it isn't soo critical. Spring Lake isn't a "Fun" run.
It
> is a race with a long standing reputation. Now..........as for
chip
> timing, it would only cost a few $'s more per runner, I think
approx
> $3/person which could easily be passed on to us and as you know
this
> race sells out every year, so that shouldn't be an issue. What
> appears to me to be going on is that the race folk want to hang on
to
> every $$ that is made. Again stop cheaping out and do the right
> thing. This is not the first year that this has happened at Spring
> Lake and won't be the last. Trying to spindle score 9000 runners
is
> absurd even with select timing, as seen by having 2 shoots open on
> the mens side at the same time.......Which spindle goes first???
> If my time was only off by the 3 sec, I wouldn't let it bother me
but
> the 10 places, THAT bothered me.
> Ray made a comment that "stuff happens", such as
> liberty....bullshit. Maybe he doesn't mind but I know of one
> nationally ranked athlete there who ran a record time in the
event,
> and ran a race beyond belief.....they got royally screwed and the
> time won't count because the race was short. Maybe he isn't
capable
> of that type of performance but this person was, and that was way
> unfair to them.
> Spring Lake isn't put on by rank amatures and novices. The folk
> who organize and run SL5 are very compatent and knowledgeable.
they
> have been doing this for a long time and are good at putting races
> on. that being said............they need to step up to the plate
and
> make this race the best that it is and that it can be. Go
> to "Championchip"(charge $3 extra) and maybe allow (for a fee)
late
> transfers (I heard that this was also a problem, injured folks
> letting other gender runners use their bibs). Marine Corp closes
out
> early same as SL5 and charges to change bib over. Easy money to be
> made say up to the last 2 weeks prior to race day.
> The solutions are there, they just need to be put in motion. But
> the "shit happens" attitude is bullshit lazy and indicitive of an
I
> don't give a rats attitude about anybody but my personal belief
> systems.
>
> --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com, "Joe
> Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@> wrote:
> >
> > This has nothing whatever to do with certification of course.
This
> all
> > about race management and what a runner who pays the $25 or so
has
> a right
> > to expect in return. I do not think it is asking too much that
the
> race
> > tell you accurately what your time and place were.
> >
> > Stuff happens? It does, but I would expect the race management
to
> step
> > forward, take accountability for the mistakes and make every
effort
> to
> > rectify the situation. Maybe they are doing that, maybe not. All
I
> was
> > saying and will continue to say is that my entry fee buys me
those
> rights.
> >
> > Not so revolutionary.
> >
> > Joe
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
Behalf
> Of Ray
> > Petit
> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2008 10:02 AM
> > To: RVRR Newsgroup
> > Subject: Re: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> >
> > Joe:
> > Both the 5K and 10K courses in East Brunswick are USATF
certified as
> > accurate. I have run many races, including North Brunswick 5K
> yesterday,
> > that is more or less accurate. Stuff happens. Remember Liberty
Half
> 2 years
> > ago?
> >
> > Ray
> > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: "Joe Lanzalotto" <j.lanza@>
> >
> > Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 21:45:37
> > To:<rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com>
> > Subject: RE: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> >
> >
> > Wow! A little dissention in the ranks. Not great.
> >
> > Look, you pay your money and it isn't cheap there are a basic
set of
> > requirements, one of which is that they get your time/place
right.
> Not a lot
> > to ask. Doesn't matter if you are a serious racer or someone
out
> for a fun
> > run or just want to run for the social aspect of things. If
there
> isn't a
> > requirement of timing and keeping track of place, then why
bother?
> Might as
> > well stay on the towpath and time yourself.
> >
> > Joe Lanzalotto
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
Behalf
> Of Ray
> > Petit
> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 9:41 PM
> > To: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > Subject: RE: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I am going to ignore this message, as I do everything you write.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> [mailto:rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com] On
Behalf
> Of
> > dragonladyrvrr
> > Sent: Monday, May 26, 2008 7:47 PM
> > To: rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > Subject: [RVRR] Re: Fwd: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "I haven't run Spring Lake in over 10 years, but when did it
become
> > a "serious race"? My bet is that half the runners don't even
check
> > their finish time. This event is probably their PR for 2008
> because
> > it is the only race that many of them will do this year."
> >
> > I can't believe that someone who is a race director and who
knows
> the
> > importance of accuracy in a race is saying that it isn't a
serious
> > race and most folk won't care since they don't race regular. A
> race
> > is a race and we pay for accuracy, many folk trust the race
staff
> > without question and blindly accept what is given to them, but
> that
> > doesn't make it right. I wonder how many runners would still do
> the
> > event if it wasn't timed at all...maybe that is an option, if
most
> > folk don't care if the mile splits are accurate, if the race is
5
> > miles or 4.5 miles, who cares who finishes in top
100,,,,,,because
> it
> > just doesn't matter....Right???
> > So just for the record......Is East Brunswick 10k a "Serious"
race
> or
> > not?????
> >
> > --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com>
> com, "Mike"
> > <popactionart@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Try the mess with Bestrace doing the Philadelphia Race for the
> Cure
> > > event that had over 21,000 people and no chip timing. (Many
are
> > saying
> > > 40,000 but I doubt that.) Two weeks later and the results
still
> > aren't
> > > official. And because of that, they are not releasing the
prizes
> to
> > > the top finishers yet.
> > >
> > > --- In rvrr@yahoogroups. <mailto:rvrr%40yahoogroups.com>
> com, "Gene
> > Gugliotta" <thinnmann@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > I don't think this went out properly...
> > > >
> > > > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > > > From: njbiathlonevents <njbiathlonevents@>
> > > > Date: Mon, May 26, 2008 at 5:52 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Accuracy of Spring Lake Results?
> > > > To: rvrr-owner@yahoogro <mailto:rvrr-owner%
40yahoogroups.com>
> ups.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Yup, they were really off with the results, especially with
the
> > > > places. They had my finish time about right (off by maybe two
> > > > seconds) but I was handed an 81st place card at the finish
and
> > they
> > > > have it posted as 89th in the results. If they are off by
that
> > much
> > > > with Cheryl and me, in the top 100, imagine how off the
> results
> > must
> > > > be by the 3000th finisher! Yikes!
> > > > Chip timing is the way to go for this many people, but is
there
> > > > enough incentive for them to do it when they can get 10,000
> > runners
> > > > to sign up in February without chips?!
> > > > Congrats to everyone who braved the crowd and enjoyed the
nice
> > > > weather there.
> > > > What a great weekend!
> > > > Chris
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > All posts to the RVRR Yahoo! group are the sole responsibility
of
> the person
> > posting and do not necessarily represent the opinions or
positions
> of The
> > Raritan Valley Road Runners or its members. This is an opt-in
> group where
> > all users have the right to share their own personal opinions and
> > observations.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
>