Mary, i don't think anybody could have phrased it better!

On Thu, Nov 19, 2009 at 11:44 AM, <photonmary@...> wrote:

 

Open mind indeed. I was initially very surly and resistant because my
favorite teams fell into the ploy, but I think trying to reason out the
strategy makes me more wise than shouting, "Let's skate for-ward". As a
result, I got to thinking:

What is the spirit of our game? Do we 'skate fast, turn left' because our
t-shirts say it? Well...probably the skating came first, but my point is
that a certain pack speed requirement has never been set, but more
unconsciously felt to be the goal. 'Racing to score points'...well...when
you think about it...isn't that what the jammers do? That phrase, while a
common explanation of the game does not at all refer to the rest of the
skaters on the pack.

Indeed, we've already learned this. Slow strategy is really a natural
progression of what has already been happening. Mind you, it is an
incredible extreme, but it is finding the pole of the slow side of the
spectrum. Is it not in the line of Duke City's overthrow of Kansas City
in 2007? Is it not the end point of our tight, crawling pack control
during powerjams?

I feel like extreme speed and slow are the opposite sides of one coin.
Skate fast, turn left? I'll do my best, but I'll never defeat Bonnie
Thunders, She Who, or Miss Fortune in skate fast thing (though I'm happy
to report that I've got the latter down pat, ha ha.) So, for the rest of
us that are not Bonnie Thunders (wonk wonk), coming up with a novel
strategy is the only way to lead that team to success. I am going to
guess that Windy City felt as lost in those slow Denver packs, as most of
Windy's opponents have felt in the Chicago fast pack. New strategy is the
way giants are toppled, no matter how much we love those giants. One of
my game mantras is.

I agree you, Sloppatola, in that rules will be stretched and some
loopholes must be closed. I am hoping that we can figure it out and make
appropriate adjustments. Personally, I feel that safety is paramount in
rule changes and interpretation, as some slow pack skaters did not abide
(because YES, the Denver skaters made contact while moving clockwise and
fast jammers often back-blocked slow skaters).

Extreme slow play is pure innovation and will only lead to more exciting
and smart strategy, no matter the resulting rule amendments. I hope you
noticed that the Denver in the Denver/Oly game used minimal slow play,
knowing that it wouldn't work in that situation. They knew that strategy
was not applicable.

I see that as the eventuality here: sometimes you skate really fucking
fast, sometimes its an extreme slow. I've heard booing at both
situations; runaway pack and stopped on the track can be equally boring.
And I've seen the excitement at both points: the Denver pack skating
backwards totally synchronized (oh the control and unconscious teamwork!),
Atomatrix enduring walloping hits at high speeds and still out-jamming her
opponents.

Nonetheless, in learning all the strategy we can, we'll have a fully
stocked arsenal of tricks. Skate smarter not harder, you know?

The spirit of the game is not just the speed, but also that we are
building this sport in structure and evolving the game play.
Evolution...what a neat thing.

Ramblingly yours,
Mary that Motha OH GOD!
Dutchland Derby Rollers/Philly Roller Girls

> So yes what Denver did is leagle ,but I will say there were several times
> at nationals where it was questionable if they were making contact while
> drifting backward and also about making contact while standing still .I
> also think the refs were not all on the same page about this strategy and
> how to call it . I do not fault Denver for playing the game the way they
> interprate the rules . I personally just like to watch fast tight action
> .And it is right to say that weather you like it or not your team should
> practice a way to counter this move so next time a team uses it , it can
> also be counter acted , which could have happened but no one knew what to
> do about .
>
> And lets remember this is our forum as coaches so we should be able to
> have totally open disscussion on this crap without judgment , so try and
> keep an open mind while reading other peoples stuff.
>
> This is what happens when a sport grows , the rules grow with it !
>
> Hillbilly hellcat
> Dutchland Rollers
> Lancaster Pa
>
> disclaimer : I can't spell :)
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder
> <j.voodoowitchdoctor@...> wrote:
>>
>> I agree and wish it were that simple.
>>
>> Sloppatola
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:05 PM, johnny capote
>> <sirjohnnycapote@...>wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Amen.
>> >
>> > Dr.Johnny Capote
>> > Montreal
>> >
>> > --- On *Wed, 11/18/09, Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...>* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Stopping on the track???
>> > To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com
>> > Received: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:51 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The debate over the legality of the play can go on for ages. But
>> legal or
>> > not, as I see it personally, the play really isn't in the spirit of
>> derby.
>> >
>> > None of the skaters signed up to go to a bout and stand there did
>> they?
>> > The fans certainly don't go to a bout to watch girls stand still on
>> roller
>> > skates and not do anything. So, it may well be within the letter of
>> the
>> > rules, but it certainly isn't within the spirit of them.
>> >
>> > However the debate highlights a larger issue. Frankly there is no way
>> to
>> > formulate rules that will cover all eventualities. There's not even a
>> way
>> > to craft rules that aren't ambiguous. Here, the rule depends on how
>> we
>> > chose to define "skating" doesn't it? One could argue that since it
>> doesn't
>> > say "skating with forward momentum" or something similar, that skating
>> could
>> > be defined as "being on the track in an upright position with skates
>> on."
>> > Sure, it sounds absurd but its no less legit than saying that
>> "skating"
>> > means you have to be moving.
>> >
>> > There will always be times in any sport, that there are two rules that
>> seem
>> > to contradict each other but neither explicitly allows or prohibits a
>> > certain activity. In those cases, there needs to be some guidance
>> that says
>> > how we will apply the rules. Basically, do we accept the more
>> permissive
>> > approach or the more restrictive approach.
>> >
>> > This isn't a derby specific problem by any means. Take soccer (the
>> most
>> > popular sport on the planet) for example. In the international play,
>> there
>> > are only 12 rules. The first 3 cover things like the size an shape of
>> the
>> > field. The other 9 cover how the
>> > game is played. And yet there are books that are thousands of pages
>> long
>> > trying to explain in detail how those few rules are applied to the
>> sport.
>> > It takes about 30 minutes to go through the basic rule book. It takes
>> days
>> > of class time to even start to understand the ramifications and how
>> they all
>> > work.
>> >
>> > The same problem applies to the NFL, NBA... you name it. There will
>> ALWAYS
>> > be someone that finds a loophole in the rules and figures out how to
>> take
>> > advantage of it. Sometimes those loopholes need to be closed. Other
>> times
>> > people realize the validity of the strategy and incorporate it into
>> their
>> > game.
>> >
>> > In this case the rules are clearly intended to be read in the vein of
>> the
>> > skaters actually moving on the track. They were obviously not crafted
>> to
>> > account for a time when an entire group of skaters would simply not
>> skate.
>> > Hence, they neither clearly allow or deny the action. So is it
>> illegal
>> > because they're playing outside the scope of the rules, or is it legal
>> > because the rules don't say it's not?
>> >
>> > As a group we could use some clarification on that. We could spend
>> the
>> > rest of our lives arguing semantics and writing up new sections of the
>> rules
>> > to cope with this stuff. But in the end we'll still be chasing our
>> tails
>> > when we could simply decide which side of that line we'd rather play
>> on and
>> > let that be the guiding principal in the future.
>> >
>> > Yippy Skippy
>> > Treasure Valley Rollergirls
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor
>> > @gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=j.voodoowitchdoctor@...>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Oh, I'm up here in the great white north where many refs are fairly
>> >> green. We instill a philosophy with our girls not to concern
>> themselves
>> >> with what they might see as a bad call.
>> >> It is up to us coaches to look out for our girls in that regard.
>> >>
>> >> The only people going "apesh!t" over the rules were the ones
>> defending the
>> >> stopping. Claiming that there was nothing in the rules preventing
>> them from
>> >> doing so. Again...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 4.1.1 The pack is defined by the largest group of in bounds Blockers,
>> *
>> >> skating* in proximity, containing members of both teams.
>> >>
>> >> Ok, "hypothetically" you are placing each of us in binary opposites
>> when
>> >> in fact we both desire rollerderby to be good and healthy. Most of
>> us
>> >> discussing this here only want clarity.
>> >>
>> >> The problem I have is when people's passion for Rollerderby get in
>> the way
>> >> of reason when trying to settle something like this. Things aren't
>> so black
>> >> or white. There is quite a lot of grey.
>> >> We will continually need to work together on building and maintaining
>> this
>> >> sport and if "Hell on Wheels" taught us anything it was that we can't
>> afford
>> >> to allow personal pride to get in the way.
>> >>
>> >> Tara, we have never met but we know many of the same people in derby.
>> I
>> >> would rally my troops under your flag any day.
>> >>
>> >> Sloppatola
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:42 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@yahoo.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=taraarmov@...>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hypothetical "your team". Unless you have multiple personalities.
>> >>>
>> >>> And again, refs aren't gonna catch everything, so it's better to
>> instill
>> >>> the instinct to read the opposing team and counter-strategize than
>> go
>> >>> apesh!t over the rules and ref enforcement unless it's
>> sooooooooooooooo
>> >>> blatant that one could say the refs are indeed blind.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tara Armov
>> >>> LA Derby Dolls
>> >>>
>> >>> --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>,
>> >>> Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @...> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Block and contact are not exclusively the same. Sorry, i think
>> you
>> >>> missed
>> >>> > my last one regarding stopping.
>> >>> > Yes, the refs did eventually get it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Oh, I totally agree that you should be ready for anything. As for
>> your
>> >>> last
>> >>> > sentence, who is "my team"?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sloppatola
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@ .> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > How was what Denver did NOT in the rules? Stopping is allowed.
>> >>> Skating
>> >>> > > clockwise and backwards is allowed if there's no contact. They
>> didn't
>> >>> block
>> >>> > > anyone while skating clockwise. Everyone was too busy freaking
>> out to
>> >>> come
>> >>> > > up with a counter-strategy earlier than WCR did. That the refs
>> didn't
>> >>> call
>> >>> > > destroying the pack when Denver started slow was up to ref
>> >>> interpretation,
>> >>> > > though it is also known that if a skater lallygags on the line,
>> the
>> >>> ref will
>> >>> > > blow the jam whistle anyway. Which they did.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Btw, how does that address my point of building a mentality that
>> >>> helps a
>> >>> > > team be ready for anything? You can't blame the refs for a
>> mental
>> >>> freeze on
>> >>> > > your team's part.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Tara Armov
>> >>> > > LA Derby Dolls
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>,
>> >>> Jason Holder
>> >>> > > <j.voodoowitchdoctor @> wrote:
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > But it isn't within the rules and that is the point. The refs
>> took
>> >>> a
>> >>> > > while
>> >>> > > > to realize that they were deliberately breaking the pack and
>> >>> blocking
>> >>> > > from a
>> >>> > > > standstill.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > Not much "bitching" going on here Tara. Quite a sensible
>> >>> discussion
>> >>> > > rather
>> >>> > > > than the binary "love it" or "hate it". Nobody here seems to
>> be
>> >>> booing
>> >>> > > > Denver. If there be anyone to be booed it would be WFTDA for
>> >>> knowing how
>> >>> > > > they play and yet no clarifying at the beginning how it should
>> be
>> >>> called.
>> >>> > > > Then cow-towing to the boos and changing mid tourney.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > It isn't the fans fault Tara.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > Sloppatola
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Lara <aniktwo@> wrote:
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I
>> found
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > slow
>> >>> > > > > pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if
>> this
>> >>> was a
>> >>> > > more
>> >>> > > > > common type of strategy.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Frosty Peaches
>> >>> > > > > Winnipeg Roller Derby League
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@> wrote:
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's
>> tactics.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > The only thing boring about what they did is that it took
>> >>> > > sooooooooooooo
>> >>> > > > > long for any team to go up against that strategy
>> head-to-head, so
>> >>> to
>> >>> > > speak.
>> >>> > > > > They got away with it many more times than I expected. I
>> have
>> >>> GREAT
>> >>> > > respect
>> >>> > > > > for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making
>> them
>> >>> adjust
>> >>> > > in
>> >>> > > > > the second half of their game at Nationals.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're
>> not
>> >>> going to
>> >>> > > > > know everything that a team does unless you play them all
>> the
>> >>> time or
>> >>> > > study
>> >>> > > > > their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster
>> the
>> >>> > > mentality
>> >>> > > > > of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or
>> >>> technique that
>> >>> > > > > hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract
>> it,
>> >>> instead
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > > > > bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it?
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as
>> physically
>> >>> to a
>> >>> > > > > change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I
>> DIDN'T
>> >>> EXPECT
>> >>> > > THAT!"
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Tara Armov
>> >>> > > > > LA Derby Dolls
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>> <rollerderbycoaches%
>> >>> > > 40yahoogroups. com <http://40yahoogroups.com>>,
>> >>> > > > > "sicktruckhillbilly" <lonelymountainglass @> wrote:
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > > > The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what
>> watch
>> >>> ,and B
>> >>> > > all
>> >>> > > > > this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the
>> WFTDA
>> >>> rule set
>> >>> > > , so
>> >>> > > > > while it worked this time a year from now this will all be
>> >>> different !
>> >>> > > I
>> >>> > > > > watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked
>> ass
>> >>> without
>> >>> > > doing
>> >>> > > > > this at all !
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > > > Hillbilly Hellcat
>> >>> > > > > > Dutchland Rollers
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > --
>> >>> > > > Somnambulate some don't
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > Somnambulate some don't
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >>>
>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>>
>> >>> (Yahoo! ID required)
>> >>>
>> >>> rollerderbycoaches- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Somnambulate some don't
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Looking for the perfect gift?* Give the gift of
>> Flickr!*<http://www.flickr.com/gift/>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Somnambulate some don't
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

 

Open mind indeed. I was initially very surly and resistant because my
favorite teams fell into the ploy, but I think trying to reason out the
strategy makes me more wise than shouting, "Let's skate for-ward". As a
result, I got to thinking:

What is the spirit of our game? Do we 'skate fast, turn left' because our
t-shirts say it? Well...probably the skating came first, but my point is
that a certain pack speed requirement has never been set, but more
unconsciously felt to be the goal. 'Racing to score points'...well...when
you think about it...isn't that what the jammers do? That phrase, while a
common explanation of the game does not at all refer to the rest of the
skaters on the pack.

Indeed, we've already learned this. Slow strategy is really a natural
progression of what has already been happening. Mind you, it is an
incredible extreme, but it is finding the pole of the slow side of the
spectrum. Is it not in the line of Duke City's overthrow of Kansas City
in 2007? Is it not the end point of our tight, crawling pack control
during powerjams?

I feel like extreme speed and slow are the opposite sides of one coin.
Skate fast, turn left? I'll do my best, but I'll never defeat Bonnie
Thunders, She Who, or Miss Fortune in skate fast thing (though I'm happy
to report that I've got the latter down pat, ha ha.) So, for the rest of
us that are not Bonnie Thunders (wonk wonk), coming up with a novel
strategy is the only way to lead that team to success. I am going to
guess that Windy City felt as lost in those slow Denver packs, as most of
Windy's opponents have felt in the Chicago fast pack. New strategy is the
way giants are toppled, no matter how much we love those giants. One of
my game mantras is.

I agree you, Sloppatola, in that rules will be stretched and some
loopholes must be closed. I am hoping that we can figure it out and make
appropriate adjustments. Personally, I feel that safety is paramount in
rule changes and interpretation, as some slow pack skaters did not abide
(because YES, the Denver skaters made contact while moving clockwise and
fast jammers often back-blocked slow skaters).

Extreme slow play is pure innovation and will only lead to more exciting
and smart strategy, no matter the resulting rule amendments. I hope you
noticed that the Denver in the Denver/Oly game used minimal slow play,
knowing that it wouldn't work in that situation. They knew that strategy
was not applicable.

I see that as the eventuality here: sometimes you skate really fucking
fast, sometimes its an extreme slow. I've heard booing at both
situations; runaway pack and stopped on the track can be equally boring.
And I've seen the excitement at both points: the Denver pack skating
backwards totally synchronized (oh the control and unconscious teamwork!),
Atomatrix enduring walloping hits at high speeds and still out-jamming her
opponents.

Nonetheless, in learning all the strategy we can, we'll have a fully
stocked arsenal of tricks. Skate smarter not harder, you know?

The spirit of the game is not just the speed, but also that we are
building this sport in structure and evolving the game play.
Evolution...what a neat thing.

Ramblingly yours,
Mary that Motha OH GOD!
Dutchland Derby Rollers/Philly Roller Girls

> So yes what Denver did is leagle ,but I will say there were several times
> at nationals where it was questionable if they were making contact while
> drifting backward and also about making contact while standing still .I
> also think the refs were not all on the same page about this strategy and
> how to call it . I do not fault Denver for playing the game the way they
> interprate the rules . I personally just like to watch fast tight action
> .And it is right to say that weather you like it or not your team should
> practice a way to counter this move so next time a team uses it , it can
> also be counter acted , which could have happened but no one knew what to
> do about .
>
> And lets remember this is our forum as coaches so we should be able to
> have totally open disscussion on this crap without judgment , so try and
> keep an open mind while reading other peoples stuff.
>
> This is what happens when a sport grows , the rules grow with it !
>
> Hillbilly hellcat
> Dutchland Rollers
> Lancaster Pa
>
> disclaimer : I can't spell :)
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder
> <j.voodoowitchdoctor@...> wrote:
>>
>> I agree and wish it were that simple.
>>
>> Sloppatola
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 5:05 PM, johnny capote
>> <sirjohnnycapote@...>wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Amen.
>> >
>> > Dr.Johnny Capote
>> > Montreal
>> >
>> > --- On *Wed, 11/18/09, Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...>* wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > From: Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...>
>> >
>> > Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Stopping on the track???
>> > To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com
>> > Received: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:51 PM
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The debate over the legality of the play can go on for ages. But
>> legal or
>> > not, as I see it personally, the play really isn't in the spirit of
>> derby.
>> >
>> > None of the skaters signed up to go to a bout and stand there did
>> they?
>> > The fans certainly don't go to a bout to watch girls stand still on
>> roller
>> > skates and not do anything. So, it may well be within the letter of
>> the
>> > rules, but it certainly isn't within the spirit of them.
>> >
>> > However the debate highlights a larger issue. Frankly there is no way
>> to
>> > formulate rules that will cover all eventualities. There's not even a
>> way
>> > to craft rules that aren't ambiguous. Here, the rule depends on how
>> we
>> > chose to define "skating" doesn't it? One could argue that since it
>> doesn't
>> > say "skating with forward momentum" or something similar, that skating
>> could
>> > be defined as "being on the track in an upright position with skates
>> on."
>> > Sure, it sounds absurd but its no less legit than saying that
>> "skating"
>> > means you have to be moving.
>> >
>> > There will always be times in any sport, that there are two rules that
>> seem
>> > to contradict each other but neither explicitly allows or prohibits a
>> > certain activity. In those cases, there needs to be some guidance
>> that says
>> > how we will apply the rules. Basically, do we accept the more
>> permissive
>> > approach or the more restrictive approach.
>> >
>> > This isn't a derby specific problem by any means. Take soccer (the
>> most
>> > popular sport on the planet) for example. In the international play,
>> there
>> > are only 12 rules. The first 3 cover things like the size an shape of
>> the
>> > field. The other 9 cover how the
>> > game is played. And yet there are books that are thousands of pages
>> long
>> > trying to explain in detail how those few rules are applied to the
>> sport.
>> > It takes about 30 minutes to go through the basic rule book. It takes
>> days
>> > of class time to even start to understand the ramifications and how
>> they all
>> > work.
>> >
>> > The same problem applies to the NFL, NBA... you name it. There will
>> ALWAYS
>> > be someone that finds a loophole in the rules and figures out how to
>> take
>> > advantage of it. Sometimes those loopholes need to be closed. Other
>> times
>> > people realize the validity of the strategy and incorporate it into
>> their
>> > game.
>> >
>> > In this case the rules are clearly intended to be read in the vein of
>> the
>> > skaters actually moving on the track. They were obviously not crafted
>> to
>> > account for a time when an entire group of skaters would simply not
>> skate.
>> > Hence, they neither clearly allow or deny the action. So is it
>> illegal
>> > because they're playing outside the scope of the rules, or is it legal
>> > because the rules don't say it's not?
>> >
>> > As a group we could use some clarification on that. We could spend
>> the
>> > rest of our lives arguing semantics and writing up new sections of the
>> rules
>> > to cope with this stuff. But in the end we'll still be chasing our
>> tails
>> > when we could simply decide which side of that line we'd rather play
>> on and
>> > let that be the guiding principal in the future.
>> >
>> > Yippy Skippy
>> > Treasure Valley Rollergirls
>> >
>> > On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor
>> > @gmail.com <http://mc/compose?to=j.voodoowitchdoctor@...>> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Oh, I'm up here in the great white north where many refs are fairly
>> >> green. We instill a philosophy with our girls not to concern
>> themselves
>> >> with what they might see as a bad call.
>> >> It is up to us coaches to look out for our girls in that regard.
>> >>
>> >> The only people going "apesh!t" over the rules were the ones
>> defending the
>> >> stopping. Claiming that there was nothing in the rules preventing
>> them from
>> >> doing so. Again...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 4.1.1 The pack is defined by the largest group of in bounds Blockers,
>> *
>> >> skating* in proximity, containing members of both teams.
>> >>
>> >> Ok, "hypothetically" you are placing each of us in binary opposites
>> when
>> >> in fact we both desire rollerderby to be good and healthy. Most of
>> us
>> >> discussing this here only want clarity.
>> >>
>> >> The problem I have is when people's passion for Rollerderby get in
>> the way
>> >> of reason when trying to settle something like this. Things aren't
>> so black
>> >> or white. There is quite a lot of grey.
>> >> We will continually need to work together on building and maintaining
>> this
>> >> sport and if "Hell on Wheels" taught us anything it was that we can't
>> afford
>> >> to allow personal pride to get in the way.
>> >>
>> >> Tara, we have never met but we know many of the same people in derby.
>> I
>> >> would rally my troops under your flag any day.
>> >>
>> >> Sloppatola
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:42 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@yahoo.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=taraarmov@...>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>> Hypothetical "your team". Unless you have multiple personalities.
>> >>>
>> >>> And again, refs aren't gonna catch everything, so it's better to
>> instill
>> >>> the instinct to read the opposing team and counter-strategize than
>> go
>> >>> apesh!t over the rules and ref enforcement unless it's
>> sooooooooooooooo
>> >>> blatant that one could say the refs are indeed blind.
>> >>>
>> >>> Tara Armov
>> >>> LA Derby Dolls
>> >>>
>> >>> --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>,
>> >>> Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @...> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Block and contact are not exclusively the same. Sorry, i think
>> you
>> >>> missed
>> >>> > my last one regarding stopping.
>> >>> > Yes, the refs did eventually get it.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Oh, I totally agree that you should be ready for anything. As for
>> your
>> >>> last
>> >>> > sentence, who is "my team"?
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Sloppatola
>> >>> >
>> >>> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@ .> wrote:
>> >>> >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > How was what Denver did NOT in the rules? Stopping is allowed.
>> >>> Skating
>> >>> > > clockwise and backwards is allowed if there's no contact. They
>> didn't
>> >>> block
>> >>> > > anyone while skating clockwise. Everyone was too busy freaking
>> out to
>> >>> come
>> >>> > > up with a counter-strategy earlier than WCR did. That the refs
>> didn't
>> >>> call
>> >>> > > destroying the pack when Denver started slow was up to ref
>> >>> interpretation,
>> >>> > > though it is also known that if a skater lallygags on the line,
>> the
>> >>> ref will
>> >>> > > blow the jam whistle anyway. Which they did.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Btw, how does that address my point of building a mentality that
>> >>> helps a
>> >>> > > team be ready for anything? You can't blame the refs for a
>> mental
>> >>> freeze on
>> >>> > > your team's part.
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Tara Armov
>> >>> > > LA Derby Dolls
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>,
>> >>> Jason Holder
>> >>> > > <j.voodoowitchdoctor @> wrote:
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > But it isn't within the rules and that is the point. The refs
>> took
>> >>> a
>> >>> > > while
>> >>> > > > to realize that they were deliberately breaking the pack and
>> >>> blocking
>> >>> > > from a
>> >>> > > > standstill.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > Not much "bitching" going on here Tara. Quite a sensible
>> >>> discussion
>> >>> > > rather
>> >>> > > > than the binary "love it" or "hate it". Nobody here seems to
>> be
>> >>> booing
>> >>> > > > Denver. If there be anyone to be booed it would be WFTDA for
>> >>> knowing how
>> >>> > > > they play and yet no clarifying at the beginning how it should
>> be
>> >>> called.
>> >>> > > > Then cow-towing to the boos and changing mid tourney.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > It isn't the fans fault Tara.
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > Sloppatola
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Lara <aniktwo@> wrote:
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I
>> found
>> >>> the
>> >>> > > slow
>> >>> > > > > pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if
>> this
>> >>> was a
>> >>> > > more
>> >>> > > > > common type of strategy.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Frosty Peaches
>> >>> > > > > Winnipeg Roller Derby League
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@> wrote:
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's
>> tactics.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > The only thing boring about what they did is that it took
>> >>> > > sooooooooooooo
>> >>> > > > > long for any team to go up against that strategy
>> head-to-head, so
>> >>> to
>> >>> > > speak.
>> >>> > > > > They got away with it many more times than I expected. I
>> have
>> >>> GREAT
>> >>> > > respect
>> >>> > > > > for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making
>> them
>> >>> adjust
>> >>> > > in
>> >>> > > > > the second half of their game at Nationals.
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're
>> not
>> >>> going to
>> >>> > > > > know everything that a team does unless you play them all
>> the
>> >>> time or
>> >>> > > study
>> >>> > > > > their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster
>> the
>> >>> > > mentality
>> >>> > > > > of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or
>> >>> technique that
>> >>> > > > > hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract
>> it,
>> >>> instead
>> >>> > > of
>> >>> > > > > bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it?
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as
>> physically
>> >>> to a
>> >>> > > > > change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I
>> DIDN'T
>> >>> EXPECT
>> >>> > > THAT!"
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > Tara Armov
>> >>> > > > > LA Derby Dolls
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>> <rollerderbycoaches%
>> >>> > > 40yahoogroups. com <http://40yahoogroups.com>>,
>> >>> > > > > "sicktruckhillbilly" <lonelymountainglass @> wrote:
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > > > The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what
>> watch
>> >>> ,and B
>> >>> > > all
>> >>> > > > > this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the
>> WFTDA
>> >>> rule set
>> >>> > > , so
>> >>> > > > > while it worked this time a year from now this will all be
>> >>> different !
>> >>> > > I
>> >>> > > > > watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked
>> ass
>> >>> without
>> >>> > > doing
>> >>> > > > > this at all !
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > > > Hillbilly Hellcat
>> >>> > > > > > Dutchland Rollers
>> >>> > > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > > > --
>> >>> > > > Somnambulate some don't
>> >>> > > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> > >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > Somnambulate some don't
>> >>> >
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> ------------ --------- --------- ------
>> >>>
>> >>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >>>
>> >>> (Yahoo! ID required)
>> >>>
>> >>> rollerderbycoaches- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups.
>> com<http://mc/compose?to=rollerderbycoaches-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Somnambulate some don't
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------
>> > Looking for the perfect gift?* Give the gift of
>> Flickr!*<http://www.flickr.com/gift/>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Somnambulate some don't
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Amen. Dr.Johnny Capote Montreal --- On Wed, 11/18/09, Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...> wrote: From: Yippy Skippy <uberskippy@...> Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Stopping on the track??? To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com Received: Wednesday, November 18, 2009, 4:51 PM   The debate over the legality of the play can go on for ages.  But legal or not, as I see it personally, the play really isn't in the spirit of derby.  None of the skaters signed up to go to a bout and stand there did they?  The fans certainly don't go to a bout to watch girls stand still on roller skates and not do anything.  So, it may well be within the letter of the rules, but it certainly isn't within the spirit of them.  However the debate highlights a larger issue.  Frankly there is no way to formulate rules that will cover all eventualities.  There's not even a way to craft rules that aren't ambiguous.  Here, the rule depends on how we chose to define "skating" doesn't it?  One could argue that since it doesn't say "skating with forward momentum" or something similar, that skating could be defined as "being on the track in an upright position with skates on."  Sure, it sounds absurd but its no less legit than saying that "skating" means you have to be moving. There will always be times in any sport, that there are two rules that seem to contradict each other but neither explicitly allows or prohibits a certain activity.  In those cases, there needs to be some guidance that says how we will apply the rules.  Basically, do we accept the more permissive approach or the more restrictive approach.  This isn't a derby specific problem by any means.  Take soccer (the most popular sport on the planet) for example.  In the international play, there are only 12 rules.  The first 3 cover things like the size an shape of the field.  The other 9 cover how the game is played.  And yet there are books that are thousands of pages long trying to explain in detail how those few rules are applied to the sport.  It takes about 30 minutes to go through the basic rule book.  It takes days of class time to even start to understand the ramifications and how they all work.  The same problem applies to the NFL, NBA... you name it.  There will ALWAYS be someone that finds a loophole in the rules and figures out how to take advantage of it.  Sometimes those loopholes need to be closed.  Other times people realize the validity of the strategy and incorporate it into their game.  In this case the rules are clearly intended to be read in the vein of the skaters actually moving on the track.  They were obviously not crafted to account for a time when an entire group of skaters would simply not skate.  Hence, they neither clearly allow or deny the action.  So is it illegal because they're playing outside the scope of the rules, or is it legal because the rules don't say it's not?  As a group we could use some clarification on that.  We could spend the rest of our lives arguing semantics and writing up new sections of the rules to cope with this stuff.  But in the end we'll still be chasing our tails when we could simply decide which side of that line we'd rather play on and let that be the guiding principal in the future.  Yippy Skippy Treasure Valley Rollergirls On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:44 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @gmail.com> wrote:    Oh, I'm up here in the great white north where many refs are fairly green.  We instill a philosophy with our girls not to concern themselves with what they might see as a bad call.  It is up to us coaches to look out for our girls in that regard.  The only people going "apesh!t" over the rules were the ones defending the stopping.  Claiming that there was nothing in the rules preventing them from doing so.  Again... 4.1.1 The pack is defined by the largest group of in bounds Blockers, skating in proximity, containing members of both teams. Ok, "hypothetically" you are placing each of us in binary opposites when in fact we both desire rollerderby to be good and healthy.  Most of us discussing this here only want clarity. The problem I have is when people's passion for Rollerderby get in the way of reason when trying to settle something like this.  Things aren't so black or white.  There is quite a lot of grey. We will continually need to work together on building and maintaining this sport and if "Hell on Wheels" taught us anything it was that we can't afford to allow personal pride to get in the way. Tara, we have never met but we know many of the same people in derby.  I would rally my troops under your flag any day.  Sloppatola On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:42 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@yahoo. com> wrote: Hypothetical "your team". Unless you have multiple personalities. And again, refs aren't gonna catch everything, so it's better to instill the instinct to read the opposing team and counter-strategize than go apesh!t over the rules and ref enforcement unless it's sooooooooooooooo blatant that one could say the refs are indeed blind. Tara Armov LA Derby Dolls --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @...> wrote: > > Block and contact are not exclusively the same.  Sorry, i think you missed > my last one regarding stopping. > Yes, the refs did eventually get it. > > Oh, I totally agree that you should be ready for anything.  As for your last > sentence, who is "my team"? > > Sloppatola > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@.. .> wrote: > > > > > How was what Denver did NOT in the rules? Stopping is allowed. Skating > > clockwise and backwards is allowed if there's no contact. They didn't block > > anyone while skating clockwise. Everyone was too busy freaking out to come > > up with a counter-strategy earlier than WCR did. That the refs didn't call > > destroying the pack when Denver started slow was up to ref interpretation, > > though it is also known that if a skater lallygags on the line, the ref will > > blow the jam whistle anyway. Which they did. > > > > Btw, how does that address my point of building a mentality that helps a > > team be ready for anything? You can't blame the refs for a mental freeze on > > your team's part. > > > > Tara Armov > > LA Derby Dolls > > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, Jason Holder > > <j.voodoowitchdoctor @> wrote: > > > > > > But it isn't within the rules and that is the point.  The refs took a > > while > > > to realize that they were deliberately breaking the pack and blocking > > from a > > > standstill. > > > > > > Not much "bitching" going on here Tara.  Quite a sensible discussion > > rather > > > than the binary "love it" or "hate it".  Nobody here seems to be booing > > > Denver.  If there be anyone to be booed it would be WFTDA for knowing how > > > they play and yet no clarifying at the beginning how it should be called. > > > Then cow-towing to the boos and changing mid tourney. > > > > > > It isn't the fans fault Tara. > > > > > > Sloppatola > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Lara <aniktwo@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I found the > > slow > > > > pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if this was a > > more > > > > common type of strategy. > > > > > > > > Frosty Peaches > > > > Winnipeg Roller Derby League > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's tactics. > > > > > > > > The only thing boring about what they did is that it took > > sooooooooooooo > > > > long for any team to go up against that strategy head-to-head, so to > > speak. > > > > They got away with it many more times than I expected. I have GREAT > > respect > > > > for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making them adjust > > in > > > > the second half of their game at Nationals. > > > > > > > > Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're not going to > > > > know everything that a team does unless you play them all the time or > > study > > > > their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster the > > mentality > > > > of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or technique that > > > > hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract it, instead > > of > > > > bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it? > > > > > > > > I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as physically to a > > > > change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I DIDN'T EXPECT > > THAT!" > > > > > > > > Tara Armov > > > > LA Derby Dolls > > > > > > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com<rollerderbycoaches% > > 40yahoogroups. com>, > > > > "sicktruckhillbilly" <lonelymountainglass @> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what watch ,and B > > all > > > > this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the WFTDA rule set > > , so > > > > while it worked this time a year from now this will all be different ! > > I > > > > watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked ass without > > doing > > > > this at all ! > > > > > > > > > > Hillbilly Hellcat > > > > > Dutchland Rollers > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Somnambulate some don't > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Somnambulate some don't > ------------ --------- --------- ------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rollerderb ycoaches/ <*> Your email settings:    Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:    http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/rollerderb ycoaches/ join    (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:    rollerderbycoaches- digest@yahoogrou ps.com    rollerderbycoaches- fullfeatured@ yahoogroups. com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:    rollerderbycoaches- unsubscribe@ yahoogroups. com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:    http://docs. yahoo.com/ info/terms/ -- Somnambulate some don't

---

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Oh, I'm up here in the great white north where many refs are fairly green.  We instill a philosophy with our girls not to concern themselves with what they might see as a bad call. 
It is up to us coaches to look out for our girls in that regard. 

The only people going "apesh!t" over the rules were the ones defending the stopping.  Claiming that there was nothing in the rules preventing them from doing so.  Again...

4.1.1 The pack is defined by the largest group of in bounds Blockers, skating in proximity, containing members of both teams.

Ok, "hypothetically" you are placing each of us in binary opposites when in fact we both desire rollerderby to be good and healthy.  Most of us discussing this here only want clarity.

The problem I have is when people's passion for Rollerderby get in the way of reason when trying to settle something like this.  Things aren't so black or white.  There is quite a lot of grey.
We will continually need to work together on building and maintaining this sport and if "Hell on Wheels" taught us anything it was that we can't afford to allow personal pride to get in the way.

Tara, we have never met but we know many of the same people in derby.  I would rally my troops under your flag any day. 

Sloppatola

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:42 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@...> wrote:

Hypothetical "your team". Unless you have multiple personalities.

And again, refs aren't gonna catch everything, so it's better to instill the instinct to read the opposing team and counter-strategize than go apesh!t over the rules and ref enforcement unless it's sooooooooooooooo blatant that one could say the refs are indeed blind.

Tara Armov
LA Derby Dolls

--- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor@...> wrote:
>

> Block and contact are not exclusively the same.  Sorry, i think you missed
> my last one regarding stopping.
> Yes, the refs did eventually get it.
>
> Oh, I totally agree that you should be ready for anything.  As for your last
> sentence, who is "my team"?
>
> Sloppatola
>

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > How was what Denver did NOT in the rules? Stopping is allowed. Skating
> > clockwise and backwards is allowed if there's no contact. They didn't block
> > anyone while skating clockwise. Everyone was too busy freaking out to come
> > up with a counter-strategy earlier than WCR did. That the refs didn't call
> > destroying the pack when Denver started slow was up to ref interpretation,
> > though it is also known that if a skater lallygags on the line, the ref will
> > blow the jam whistle anyway. Which they did.
> >
> > Btw, how does that address my point of building a mentality that helps a
> > team be ready for anything? You can't blame the refs for a mental freeze on
> > your team's part.
> >
> > Tara Armov
> > LA Derby Dolls
> >
> > --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder
> > <j.voodoowitchdoctor@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But it isn't within the rules and that is the point.  The refs took a
> > while
> > > to realize that they were deliberately breaking the pack and blocking
> > from a
> > > standstill.
> > >
> > > Not much "bitching" going on here Tara.  Quite a sensible discussion
> > rather
> > > than the binary "love it" or "hate it".  Nobody here seems to be booing
> > > Denver.  If there be anyone to be booed it would be WFTDA for knowing how
> > > they play and yet no clarifying at the beginning how it should be called.
> > > Then cow-towing to the boos and changing mid tourney.
> > >
> > > It isn't the fans fault Tara.
> > >
> > > Sloppatola
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Lara <aniktwo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I found the
> > slow
> > > > pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if this was a
> > more
> > > > common type of strategy.
> > > >
> > > > Frosty Peaches
> > > > Winnipeg Roller Derby League
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's tactics.
> > > >
> > > > The only thing boring about what they did is that it took
> > sooooooooooooo
> > > > long for any team to go up against that strategy head-to-head, so to
> > speak.
> > > > They got away with it many more times than I expected. I have GREAT
> > respect
> > > > for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making them adjust
> > in
> > > > the second half of their game at Nationals.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're not going to
> > > > know everything that a team does unless you play them all the time or
> > study
> > > > their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster the
> > mentality
> > > > of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or technique that
> > > > hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract it, instead
> > of
> > > > bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it?
> > > >
> > > > I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as physically to a
> > > > change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I DIDN'T EXPECT
> > THAT!"
> > > >
> > > > Tara Armov
> > > > LA Derby Dolls
> > > >
> > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com<rollerderbycoaches%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "sicktruckhillbilly" <lonelymountainglass@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what watch ,and B
> > all
> > > > this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the WFTDA rule set
> > , so
> > > > while it worked this time a year from now this will all be different !
> > I
> > > > watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked ass without
> > doing
> > > > this at all !
> > > > >
> > > > > Hillbilly Hellcat
> > > > > Dutchland Rollers
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Somnambulate some don't
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

> --

> Somnambulate some don't
>

------------------------------------

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Somnambulate some don't

 

Hey Olive!!

This is Lizzie B Demented from Harbor City Rollerdames in Duluth/Superior! First off, welcome to derby land!! A good website to check out is interderby.wordpress.com/hoolis-drills-and-spills-page/ there's a bunch of really great drill books. Also, more specific to our question, if you go to the Richmond Derby Demons Training Guide, on pg 11 there's a good description of proper skating form.

Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

---

From: "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@...>

Date: Wed, 18 Nov 2009 01:59:55 -0000

To: <rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: [rollerderbycoaches] Good Form

 

Hey folks!

I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN. We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now. We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience. I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form. We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements. I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.

Thanks!
Olive Mayhem
#1917
Babe City Rollers

no, i don't agree, lots of vets on my league do it unless they are harassed not to.  Better to start off correctly.

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor@...> wrote:

 

As I pointed out it is deliberately stopped once a player seems to naturally find that stance.  It has yet to be a problem for us.  Although i do see skaters very familiar with the proper stance and still doing that making their elbows stick way out.  Not good.

You only need to work actively with the players to see when it is time to remove the training wheels.  Understandably not everyone has the time but I can make it for our girls.

Sloppatola

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Mike Gibson <mervintheperv@...> wrote:

I agree with Holly. I never teach anything, thinking that they will break a bad habit later. Teach perfect form from the begining and it will stick forever. I would suggest that you use a speed coach to help you with there form, but remember one thing. A speed coach will teach a skater to keep there feet closer together than you will want. So make sure that your skaters keep there feet shoulder width apart, especially in a pack.    -Merv

---

From: Holly Gohardly <hlybry@...>
To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Good Form

 

I teach our newbies not to use their hands on their thighs because then there's a tendancy to always keep them there.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @gmail.com> wrote:

 

I realize that you may mean a variety of things regarding "form" but the is a stance.  Not that you'll spend the entire game like this but it is good to practice being bent over a bit with your knees bent.  Newbies tend to find this tiring but it is good form. 
We get our newbies to have their hands flat on their thighs until they are comfy and naturally find that stance.  Then they remove their hands because once you're comfy like that your elbows tend to poke out.

Sloppatola

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Olive Mayhem <willowquinn@ yahoo.com> wrote:

I found a lot of good stuff there on drills and assessment, but not much on form, though I may have over looked it.  If you find anything let me know.

--- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "quadtavianwrecks00x" <parrishashbourne@ ...> wrote:
>

> Look in the file section of this group, I just found it my self looks like a good place to start.
>
> Quadtavian
> Colorado Men's Derby
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks!
> >
> > I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN.  We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now.  We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience.  I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form.  We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements.  I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Olive Mayhem
> > #1917
> > Babe City Rollers
> >
>

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--
Somnambulate some don't

--
Somnambulate some don't

Hypothetical "your team". Unless you have multiple personalities.

And again, refs aren't gonna catch everything, so it's better to instill the instinct to read the opposing team and counter-strategize than go apesh!t over the rules and ref enforcement unless it's sooooooooooooooo blatant that one could say the refs are indeed blind.

Tara Armov
LA Derby Dolls

--- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor@...> wrote:
>

> Block and contact are not exclusively the same.  Sorry, i think you missed
> my last one regarding stopping.
> Yes, the refs did eventually get it.
>
> Oh, I totally agree that you should be ready for anything.  As for your last
> sentence, who is "my team"?
>
> Sloppatola
>

> On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, taraarmov <taraarmov@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > How was what Denver did NOT in the rules? Stopping is allowed. Skating
> > clockwise and backwards is allowed if there's no contact. They didn't block
> > anyone while skating clockwise. Everyone was too busy freaking out to come
> > up with a counter-strategy earlier than WCR did. That the refs didn't call
> > destroying the pack when Denver started slow was up to ref interpretation,
> > though it is also known that if a skater lallygags on the line, the ref will
> > blow the jam whistle anyway. Which they did.
> >
> > Btw, how does that address my point of building a mentality that helps a
> > team be ready for anything? You can't blame the refs for a mental freeze on
> > your team's part.
> >
> > Tara Armov
> > LA Derby Dolls
> >
> > --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, Jason Holder
> > <j.voodoowitchdoctor@> wrote:
> > >
> > > But it isn't within the rules and that is the point.  The refs took a
> > while
> > > to realize that they were deliberately breaking the pack and blocking
> > from a
> > > standstill.
> > >
> > > Not much "bitching" going on here Tara.  Quite a sensible discussion
> > rather
> > > than the binary "love it" or "hate it".  Nobody here seems to be booing
> > > Denver.  If there be anyone to be booed it would be WFTDA for knowing how
> > > they play and yet no clarifying at the beginning how it should be called.
> > > Then cow-towing to the boos and changing mid tourney.
> > >
> > > It isn't the fans fault Tara.
> > >
> > > Sloppatola
> > >
> > > On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Lara <aniktwo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I found the
> > slow
> > > > pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if this was a
> > more
> > > > common type of strategy.
> > > >
> > > > Frosty Peaches
> > > > Winnipeg Roller Derby League
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's tactics.
> > > >
> > > > The only thing boring about what they did is that it took
> > sooooooooooooo
> > > > long for any team to go up against that strategy head-to-head, so to
> > speak.
> > > > They got away with it many more times than I expected. I have GREAT
> > respect
> > > > for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making them adjust
> > in
> > > > the second half of their game at Nationals.
> > > >
> > > > Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're not going to
> > > > know everything that a team does unless you play them all the time or
> > study
> > > > their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster the
> > mentality
> > > > of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or technique that
> > > > hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract it, instead
> > of
> > > > bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it?
> > > >
> > > > I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as physically to a
> > > > change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I DIDN'T EXPECT
> > THAT!"
> > > >
> > > > Tara Armov
> > > > LA Derby Dolls
> > > >
> > > > --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com<rollerderbycoaches%
> > 40yahoogroups.com>,
> > > > "sicktruckhillbilly" <lonelymountainglass@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what watch ,and B
> > all
> > > > this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the WFTDA rule set
> > , so
> > > > while it worked this time a year from now this will all be different !
> > I
> > > > watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked ass without
> > doing
> > > > this at all !
> > > > >
> > > > > Hillbilly Hellcat
> > > > > Dutchland Rollers
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Somnambulate some don't
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>

> --

> Somnambulate some don't
>




------------------------------------

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As I pointed out it is deliberately stopped once a player seems to naturally find that stance.  It has yet to be a problem for us.  Although i do see skaters very familiar with the proper stance and still doing that making their elbows stick way out.  Not good.

You only need to work actively with the players to see when it is time to remove the training wheels.  Understandably not everyone has the time but I can make it for our girls.

Sloppatola

On Wed, Nov 18, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Mike Gibson <mervintheperv@...> wrote:

I agree with Holly. I never teach anything, thinking that they will break a bad habit later. Teach perfect form from the begining and it will stick forever. I would suggest that you use a speed coach to help you with there form, but remember one thing. A speed coach will teach a skater to keep there feet closer together than you will want. So make sure that your skaters keep there feet shoulder width apart, especially in a pack.    -Merv

---

From: Holly Gohardly <hlybry@...>
To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Good Form

 

I teach our newbies not to use their hands on their thighs because then there's a tendancy to always keep them there.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @gmail.com> wrote:

 

I realize that you may mean a variety of things regarding "form" but the is a stance.  Not that you'll spend the entire game like this but it is good to practice being bent over a bit with your knees bent.  Newbies tend to find this tiring but it is good form. 
We get our newbies to have their hands flat on their thighs until they are comfy and naturally find that stance.  Then they remove their hands because once you're comfy like that your elbows tend to poke out.

Sloppatola

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Olive Mayhem <willowquinn@ yahoo.com> wrote:

I found a lot of good stuff there on drills and assessment, but not much on form, though I may have over looked it.  If you find anything let me know.

--- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "quadtavianwrecks00x" <parrishashbourne@ ...> wrote:
>

> Look in the file section of this group, I just found it my self looks like a good place to start.
>
> Quadtavian
> Colorado Men's Derby
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks!
> >
> > I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN.  We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now.  We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience.  I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form.  We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements.  I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Olive Mayhem
> > #1917
> > Babe City Rollers
> >
>

------------ --------- --------- ------

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--
Somnambulate some don't

--
Somnambulate some don't

I agree with Holly. I never teach anything, thinking that they will break a bad habit later. Teach perfect form from the begining and it will stick forever. I would suggest that you use a speed coach to help you with there form, but remember one thing. A speed coach will teach a skater to keep there feet closer together than you will want. So make sure that your skaters keep there feet shoulder width apart, especially in a pack.    -Merv

---

From: Holly Gohardly <hlybry@...>
To: rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, November 18, 2009 9:12:42 AM
Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Good Form

 

I teach our newbies not to use their hands on their thighs because then there's a tendancy to always keep them there.

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 10:32 PM, Jason Holder <j.voodoowitchdoctor @gmail.com> wrote:

 

I realize that you may mean a variety of things regarding "form" but the is a stance.  Not that you'll spend the entire game like this but it is good to practice being bent over a bit with your knees bent.  Newbies tend to find this tiring but it is good form. 
We get our newbies to have their hands flat on their thighs until they are comfy and naturally find that stance.  Then they remove their hands because once you're comfy like that your elbows tend to poke out.

Sloppatola

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Olive Mayhem <willowquinn@ yahoo.com> wrote:

I found a lot of good stuff there on drills and assessment, but not much on form, though I may have over looked it.  If you find anything let me know.

--- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "quadtavianwrecks00x" <parrishashbourne@ ...> wrote:
>

> Look in the file section of this group, I just found it my self looks like a good place to start.
>
> Quadtavian
> Colorado Men's Derby
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks!
> >
> > I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN.  We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now.  We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience.  I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form.  We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements.  I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Olive Mayhem
> > #1917
> > Babe City Rollers
> >
>

------------ --------- --------- ------

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--
Somnambulate some don't

I think that slowing the pack that much was fascinating too but what got irritating was when they will completely stop the pack in every single jam, that is just not derby in my opinion.

Puertorrican Poison
Tallahassee Rollergirls

---

From: Lara <aniktwo@...>
To: "rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com" <rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, November 17, 2009 5:50:06 PM
Subject: Re: [rollerderbycoaches] Re: Stopping on the track???

 

I always seem to be in the minority with my opinions but I found the slow pack fascinating and very cool. I would have no problem if this was a more common type of strategy. 

Frosty Peaches

Winnipeg Roller Derby League

On 2009-11-17, at 4:38 PM, "taraarmov" <taraarmov@yahoo. com> wrote:

 

WOW, I'm shocked at the "boring" response to Denver's tactics.

The only thing boring about what they did is that it took sooooooooooooo long for any team to go up against that strategy head-to-head, so to speak. They got away with it many more times than I expected. I have GREAT respect for Windy City who neutralized Denver's tactics and making them adjust in the second half of their game at Nationals.

Isn't THAT what the game should be about? OF COURSE you're not going to know everything that a team does unless you play them all the time or study their bout footage excessively, so isn't it better to foster the mentality of recognizing that if you come up against a strategy or technique that hasn't been used on you before, to find a way to counteract it, instead of bitching that there's a "loophole" in the rules about it?

I'd rather have players who react mentally as well as physically to a change in play than a bunch of whiners who say, "BUT I DIDN'T EXPECT THAT!"

Tara Armov
LA Derby Dolls

--- In rollerderbycoaches@ yahoogroups. com, "sicktruckhillbilly " <lonelymountainglas s@...> wrote:
>
> The thing that I don't like is that A it sucks to what watch ,and B all this is gonna do is make another 6 page amendment to the WFTDA rule set , so while it worked this time a year from now this will all be different ! I watch all these games in person and just an fyi oly kicked ass without doing this at all !
>
> Hillbilly Hellcat
> Dutchland Rollers
>

 

I realize that you may mean a variety of things regarding "form" but the is a stance.  Not that you'll spend the entire game like this but it is good to practice being bent over a bit with your knees bent.  Newbies tend to find this tiring but it is good form. 
We get our newbies to have their hands flat on their thighs until they are comfy and naturally find that stance.  Then they remove their hands because once you're comfy like that your elbows tend to poke out.

Sloppatola

On Tue, Nov 17, 2009 at 9:43 PM, Olive Mayhem <willowquinn@...> wrote:

I found a lot of good stuff there on drills and assessment, but not much on form, though I may have over looked it.  If you find anything let me know.

--- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, "quadtavianwrecks00x" <parrishashbourne@...> wrote:
>

> Look in the file section of this group, I just found it my self looks like a good place to start.
>
> Quadtavian
> Colorado Men's Derby
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks!
> >
> > I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN.  We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now.  We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience.  I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form.  We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements.  I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Olive Mayhem
> > #1917
> > Babe City Rollers
> >
>

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--
Somnambulate some don't

I found a lot of good stuff there on drills and assessment, but not much on form, though I may have over looked it.  If you find anything let me know.

--- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, "quadtavianwrecks00x" <parrishashbourne@...> wrote:
>

> Look in the file section of this group, I just found it my self looks like a good place to start.
>
> Quadtavian
> Colorado Men's Derby
>
> --- In rollerderbycoaches@yahoogroups.com, "Olive Mayhem" <willowquinn@> wrote:
> >
> > Hey folks!
> >
> > I am helping start a league in Bemidji, MN.  We have 11 girls who have been skating for a month now.  We are in a pretty rural area and nobody has any prior experience with derby or much skating experience.  I am wondering if anyone has any resources for basic form.  We could really use good how-to descriptions for form for the WFTDA minimum skills requirements.  I want us to learn how to do things right from the start so we don't have to unlearn bad habits in the future.
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Olive Mayhem
> > #1917
> > Babe City Rollers
> >
>




------------------------------------

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