I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get a

feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving up

and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at a

minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move. I am

just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain why

the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it something

that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the drop?

Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all for

your help. Steve







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve,



Don't create a hip drop!!!!  It takes us years to retrain those who have

exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip

drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on

just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating

forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip

drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to

swing through with the leg.  Hence more drop equals more knee bend and

less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip

rotation").  It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per

stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers).

Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed).  The sway that Jeff mentions

occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without

hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is

doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to

direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).



Tom



Steve Patat wrote:

> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get a

> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving up

> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at a

> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move. I am

> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain why

> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it something

> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the drop?

> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all for

> your help. Steve

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> To put your email message delivery on hold for a group:

> Send a blank message to

> racewalking-nomail@yahoogroups.com

>

> To change your subscription to daily digest mode:

> Send a blank message to

> racewalking-digest@yahoogroups.com

> You can read and post messages from the web at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racewalking

>

> You can read and post messages from the web at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racewalking

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>

To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is the

result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

accentuated by poor coaching.



Michael

MJR,







Maybe the new baby is causing me to become a pacifist. I agree with Michael as

well!







May I add: If your coach teaches hip drop, drop your coach instead.









ok









DMcG













To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is the

result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

accentuated by poor coaching.







-----Original Message-----

From: Michael Roth <michael@...>

To: racewalking@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2009 11:01 pm

Subject: [racewalking] Re: Hip Drop





































































To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is the

result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

accentuated by poor coaching.







Michael















































































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Steve/Tom,







Tom: I saw the heading and assumed we'd get into a fistfight. We don't

completely agree on all things hip, but I find myself in complete agreement with

what you wrote here. (Dare I say "again"!)









Steve: From The Complete Guide to Racewalking (1998) 











“Hip drop” should

occur naturally after push-off: As the rear leg comes forward, and the foot

loses

contact with the ground, the hip is no longer supported so it drops slightly.

This natural effect does not need to be learned, exaggerated, or fretted

over—I

don’t know why so many coaches bother confusing their athletes by talking

about

it.















I'll probably have more to say on the subject in my forthcoming book, The

Complete Guide to Competive Walking (2009, I hope!)  The only thing I would add

now is that not only is the advancing hip not supported by that leg, that leg

also weighs about 30-35 lbs. and is hanging from that side of the hip so it

causes it to drop down. If you have a lot of lower back flexibility and

relatively loose pelvic ligaments, the hip will drop a lot, if you don't, it

won't End of story. Put your effort into pelvic rotation, not drop.



ok!









Dave McGovern



World Class Racewalking



www.racewalking.org

































-----Original Message-----

From: Tom Eastler <eastler@...>

To: Steve Patat <spatat@...>

Cc: racewalking@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sun, Jul 5, 2009 10:44 pm

Subject: Re: [racewalking] Hip Drop











0A























































Steve,







Don't create a hip drop!!!!  It takes us years to retrain those who have



exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip



drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on



just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating



forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip



drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to



swing through with the leg.  Hence more drop equals more knee bend and



less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip



rotation").  It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per



stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers).



Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed).  The sway that Jeff mentions



occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without



hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is



doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to



direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).







Tom







Steve Patat wrote:



> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get a



> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not



> sure my stride is longer=2

0in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving up



> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at a



> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new



> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move. I am



> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain why



> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it something



> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the drop?



> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all for



> your help. Steve



>



>



>



> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



>



>



>



> ------------------------------------



>



> To put your email message delivery on hold for a group:



> Send a blank message to



> racewalking-nomail@yahoogroups.com



>



> To change your subscription to daily digest mode:



> Send a blank message to



> racewalking-digest@yahoogroups.com



> You can read and post messages from the web at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racewalking



>



> You can read and post messages from the web at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/racewalking



> Yahoo! Groups Links



>



>



>



>



>



>













































































[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave,



Thanks for the comments.  We do agree a lot these days.  Stranger things

have happened.



Tom



Rayzwocker@... wrote:

> Steve/Tom,

>

>

>

> Tom: I saw the heading and assumed we'd get into a fistfight. We don't

completely agree on all things hip, but I find myself in complete agreement with

what you wrote here. (Dare I say "again"!)

>

>

>

>

> Steve: From The Complete Guide to Racewalking (1998)

>

>

>

>

>

> “Hip drop” should

> occur naturally after push-off: As the rear leg comes forward, and the foot

loses

> contact with the ground, the hip is no longer supported so it drops slightly.

> This natural effect does not need to be learned, exaggerated, or fretted

over—I

> don’t know why so many coaches bother confusing their athletes by talking

about

> it.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> I'll probably have more to say on the subject in my forthcoming book, The

Complete Guide to Competive Walking (2009, I hope!)  The only thing I would add

now is that not only is the advancing hip not supported by that leg, that leg

also weighs about 30-35 lbs. and is hanging from that side of the hip so it

causes it to drop down. If you have a lot of lower back flexibility and

relatively loose pelvic ligaments, the hip will drop a lot, if you don't, it

won't End of story. Put your effort into pelvic rotation, not drop.

>

> ok!

>

>

>

>

> Dave McGovern

>

> World Class Racewalking

>

> www.racewalking.org

>

>

I would like to THANK all for their comments. You have made it much clearer to

me. It has been confusing when you see all the different styles of these great

walkers. Even the picture on the cover of Jeff & Tom’s book shows very

different hip motions. Again, THANK YOU!! Steve











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the other

esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with the

Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!







But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about is

this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than the

bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg quite a

bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and make

the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that include

some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the rotation at

the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of the

hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other side

that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg to

stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks straight

at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across the

body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve like

the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can just

look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK, it's

an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.







Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to back

motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride length

will increase.







Yours in the science and art of race walking,







Ray Sharp



http://rayswalkingdigest.wordpress.com











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ray,



I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hip-drop exists or has its place. The

point is that it shouldn't be forced or overemphasized. Your analysis of the

bent knee driving forward and the need to keep the foot low to the ground are

correct. But you're missing the action of the foot itself. When the feet are

used properly (when the athlete pushes all the way to the toes and the rear foot

leaves the ground oriented vertically/perpendicular to the ground) the foot will

come through and under the body toes pointed down. This allows for a great deal

of knee bend (about 90 degrees) with the toes coming through only millimeters

above the surface of the road or track. Athletes who have a lot of natural

hip-drop (Philip Dunn) can bring the foot through with the foot in a less-than

toes-down orientation (Philip brings his foot through parallel to the ground

when it's under his body.) But this comes back to Ray's statement that knee

drive is important for speed. Philip has a very smooth style, and his amazing

amount of hip mobility is a big part of it. But his legs drive through much

straighter than those of most of his competitors, so he's throwing a longer

lever with more apparent mass. Lack of sufficient knee bend (related to foot

orientation under the body) could explain why Philip's mile/3k/5k/10k and even

20k times never matched the level of his great 50k success.



Ok



DMcG









Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



-----Original Message-----

From: "Ray Sharp" <rsharp@...>



Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:44:08

To: 'Steve Patat'<spatat@...>; <racewalking@yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [racewalking] Hip Drop





I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the other

esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with the

Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!







But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about is

this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than the

bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg quite a

bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and make

the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that include

some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the rotation at

the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of the

hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other side

that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg to

stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks straight

at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across the

body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve like

the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can just

look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK, it's

an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.







Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to back

motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride length

will increase.







Yours in the science and art of race walking,







Ray Sharp



http://rayswalkingdigest.wordpress.com











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Dave, and all interested parties:







I agree with everything Dave says below, and so, by corollary, what Tom,

Jeff, Michael and Tim said as well.







With the proper foot action at push off, the hip, thigh and knee will begin

driving forward in the last instants before the toe rolls to the end and

leaves the ground. I don't mean that the knee will bend early, because

driving the hip and knee back are the key to power and stride length. But

just at the end, the hip and knee will snap forward just a few milliseconds

perhaps before the toe leaves the ground. In a simplified version, the leg

is like a pendulum, but the truth is much more complex, and the impulse of

the forward motion begins with the core muscles to the hip flexors and so on

down the chain in a crack the whip type motion, with the hip and knee moving

forward slightly sooner than the toe. That means the toe will "drag" forward

pointing down, a bit behind or out of phase. Just before heel impact, the

toe will be pulled up by the muscles on the front of the shin, ankle and

foot, while (guess what) the hip and knee have begun their backwards path,

still slightly ahead of the foot, which is moving forward. This means the

knee will have moved back (relative to the walker, not relative to the

ground) enough to straighten the leg as the heel strikes.



These are complicated motions. We simplify them so we can explain them to

other people, and also so we can focus on a few key points when we walk.

When I have too much hip drop, like when I am tiring and my body is

"sagging" and sinking too much into the hyper-extended knee by rolling too

much along the outside of the foot, it makes the shoulder of my forward

swinging arm drop too much and pulls my head to that side, giving me a side

to side motion that the coaches and judges (Dave, Tom, Jeff, Tim, Michael)

want us to avoid. If thinking about hip drop causes excessive side to side

motion, it should be discouraged or dampened a little bit. Obviously,

forward motion is the goal.







If you think back to Ernesto Canto, he had a very quick and efficient motion

with the knee bent quite a lot on the recovering leg, but his head went side

to side. I think Jefferson Perez and the current women's Olympic champion

(afraid I'll spell her name wrong) are better models, because they achieve

the desired hip motion without much head motion.







Ray















Ray,



I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hip-drop exists or has its place.

The point is that it shouldn't be forced or overemphasized. Your analysis of

the bent knee driving forward and the need to keep the foot low to the

ground are correct. But you're missing the action of the foot itself. When

the feet are used properly (when the athlete pushes all the way to the toes

and the rear foot leaves the ground oriented vertically/perpendicular to the

ground) the foot will come through and under the body toes pointed down.

This allows for a great deal of knee bend (about 90 degrees) with the toes

coming through only millimeters above the surface of the road or track.

Athletes who have a lot of natural hip-drop (Philip Dunn) can bring the foot

through with the foot in a less-than toes-down orientation (Philip brings

his foot through parallel to the ground when it's under his body.) But this

comes back to Ray's statement that knee drive is important for speed. Philip

has a very smooth style, and his amazing amount of hip mobility is a big

part of it. But his legs drive through much straighter than those of most of

his competitors, so he's throwing a longer lever with more apparent mass.

Lack of sufficient knee bend (related to foot orientation under the body)

could explain why Philip's mile/3k/5k/10k and even 20k times never matched

the level of his great 50k success.



Ok



DMcG









Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry



-----Original Message-----

From: "Ray Sharp" <rsharp@hline. <mailto:rsharp%40hline.org> org>



Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:44:08

To: 'Steve Patat'<spatat@bellsouth. <mailto:spatat%40bellsouth.net> net>;

<racewalking@ <mailto:racewalking%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com>

Subject: RE: [racewalking] Hip Drop





I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the other

esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with the

Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!







But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about is

this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than the

bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg quite a

bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and make

the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that include

some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the rotation at

the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of the

hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other side

that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg to

stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks straight

at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across the

body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve like

the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can just

look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK, it's

an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.







Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to back

motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride length

will increase.







Yours in the science and art of race walking,







Ray Sharp



http://rayswalkingd <http://rayswalkingdigest.wordpress.com>

igest.wordpress.com











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Put on a shirt that is a very different color than your walking shorts.

Tuck the shirt in. This creates a roughly horizontal line between your

shorts and your shirts that is easy to see. If you wear the waist band

at or above the top edge of the hip bones (pelvic girdle), pull the

shorts down a little so the waist band goes across the top edge of the

hip bones. The goal is to have the line between you shorts and your

shirt to be on the top portion of your hips. Have a friend/spouse/coach

observe you from behind while you are race walking away from them. If

you have any hip drop, the observer should see the up/down motion of the

line between your shorts and your shirt. As a side benefit, you can

detect the dreaded hip sway (side to side movement) from these

observations too - just concentrate on the outside edge of either hip.



Hip rotation is easy to see too especially if you have access to a

treadmill. If you have a pair of shorts or warmup pants with a vertical

stripe down each side, wear those. Otherwise paperclip a small white

square to the waist band on each side of your shorts. Tuck your shirt

in, and position the waist band as described above for detecting hip

drop. Have a friend/spouse/coach observe you from the side while race

walking. Because your body stays in the same place while walking on the

treadmill, any forward and back movement of the vertical stripe or white

square is easy to see. You can still see it from a race walker going by,

but it will take a few times for a novice observer to see it, because

the race walkers body is moving too, and the hip rotation motion is

relative to the race walkers body. If the amount of forward motion looks

different than the amount of backwards motion, have the observer move to

the other side. This difference could be real, or it could be an

illusion. As a side benefit, you can see the relative sizes of the "in

front of the body" portion of the stride and the "behind the body"

portion of the stride.



If you do either of these on a treadmill, it makes it easier for the

observer, because the body of the race walker is not moving away from

the observer and the background objects are not changing. This gives the

observer a longer time to detect what is going on -- very useful for a

novice observer.



If the observer records what they see with a video camera, you'll be

able to see it too.

Niceto see us all agree.

Jeff Salvage

www.racewalk.com

www.racewalkclinic.com



�







________________________________

From: Tom Eastler <eastler@...>

To: Steve Patat <spatat@...>

Cc: racewalking@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, July 5, 2009 10:44:56 PM

Subject: Re: [racewalking] Hip Drop











Steve,



Don't create a hip drop!!!! It takes us years to retrain those who have

exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip

drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on

just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating

forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip

drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to

swing through with the leg. Hence more drop equals more knee bend and

less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip

rotation"). It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per

stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers) .

Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed). The sway that Jeff mentions

occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without

hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is

doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to

direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).



Tom



Steve Patat wrote:

> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get a

> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving up

> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at a

> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move. I am

> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain why

> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it something

> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the drop?

> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all for

> your help. Steve

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------ --------- --------- ------

>

> To put your email message delivery on hold for a group:

> Send a blank message to

> racewalking- nomail@yahoogrou ps.com

>

> To change your subscription to daily digest mode:

> Send a blank message to

> racewalking- digest@yahoogrou ps.com

> You can read and post messages from the web at http://groups. yahoo.com/

group/racewalkin g

>

> You can read and post messages from the web at http://groups. yahoo.com/

group/racewalkin g

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>

>

>















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Steve,



I've been thinking about this some. Here are my thoughts on the purpose

of the hip drop: The hip drop is on the side opposite the straightened

leg, but first let's think about the hip on the side of the body where

the leg is straightened at the time of heel strike. As the body moves

over the straightened leg, the hip on that side of the body necessarily

rises. Imagine that the straightened leg is a board. Visualize placing

one end of the board on the ground and holding the board so it is not

quite vertical (just as your leg is not quite vertical at  heel strike).

Then visualize moving the board into a vertical position (just as your

leg moves to vertical as your body moves forward over the leg). As you

move the board into a vertical position, the top end of the board will

move farther from the ground until the board is vertical, and then will

move closer to the ground as the board moves past vertical. This is

exactly what the hip does on the straightened leg side of the body.



Now let's think about the other side of the body, where the leg is

advancing from behind the body. Let's assume that you don't have any hip

drop and that side of the hip stays parallel with the hip on

straightened-leg side of the body. If you do that, then your whole body

will rise as your straightened-leg hip rises. You will be  spending

energy moving your center of gravity up. This is wasted energy.



But, if you allow your hip to drop on the advancing-leg side of the body

by exactly the same amount that your hip rises on the straightened-leg

side of the body, the point in the middle of your body between the two

hips will not rise. Consequently, your center of gravity will remain the

same distance from the ground all through the stride. You won't waste

energy moving your center of gravity up and down (and your head will

move parallel to the ground, not bounce up and down like a runner or

jogger), and you can focus your energy on moving your body forward. Thus

the proper hip drop makes you a more efficient racewalker.



Brent Bohlen - Author of BoomerWalk









--- In racewalking@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Patat" <spatat@...> wrote:

>

> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do

get a

> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am

not

> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips

moving up

> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that

at a

> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's

new

> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should

move. I am

> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain

why

> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it

something

> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the

drop?

> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all

for

> your help. Steve

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Hello Steve,



The section that you are referring to is on page 19-21 in Race Walk Clinic - in

a Book, and while the diagrams might make it seem that there is a lot of "drop",

in fact, the goal is to limit the drop as much as possible.  We are just showing

you what the hip does, and although it is a big diagram, it is actually a very

small "drop".



It is impossible to limit all of the drop because as the swing leg comes forward

the hip is more relaxed and it does drop slightly.  The more side to side or up

and down movement you have, the  less eficient you will become.  You want to

think about the hips moving forward and you want to work on the flexibility of

the hip flexors so that the rear foot will be able to stay on the ground longer.

If the hips have excessive hip "drop" we do give you some exercises to correct

this and other hip issues in Chapter 6.



If you look at the picture of Denis Nizhegorodov on page 19, you will see superb

hip flexor flexibility.  The reason that we chose that picture was because you

can see the rear foot on the ground very far behind the body and you can see the

opposite hip is still coming forward.



You should not think about the hip dropping at all, only moving forward.  The

hip will drop slightly naturally.



Tim

www.racewalkclinic.com













--- In racewalking@yahoogroups.com, "Steve Patat" <spatat@...> wrote:

>

> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get a

> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving up

> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at a

> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move. I am

> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain why

> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it something

> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the drop?

> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all for

> your help. Steve

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

This is simply a compilation of the hip-drop discussion, no new material

is added.



JM







Steve Patat:



I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get

a

feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving

up

and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at

a

minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move.

I am

just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain

why

the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it

something

that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the

drop?

Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all

for

your help.







Tom Eastler:



Don't create a hip drop!!!! It takes us years to retrain those who have

exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip

drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on

just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating

forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip

drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to

swing through with the leg. Hence more drop equals more knee bend and

less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip

rotation"). It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per

stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers).

Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed). The sway that Jeff mentions

occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without

hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is

doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to

direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).







Michael Roth:



To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is

the

result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

accentuated by poor coaching.







Brent Bohlen:



I've been thinking about this some. Here are my thoughts on the purpose

of the hip drop: The hip drop is on the side opposite the straightened

leg, but first let's think about the hip on the side of the body where

the leg is straightened at the time of heel strike. As the body moves

over the straightened leg, the hip on that side of the body necessarily

rises. Imagine that the straightened leg is a board. Visualize placing

one end of the board on the ground and holding the board so it is not

quite vertical (just as your leg is not quite vertical at heel strike).

Then visualize moving the board into a vertical position (just as your

leg moves to vertical as your body moves forward over the leg). As you

move the board into a vertical position, the top end of the board will

move farther from the ground until the board is vertical, and then will

move closer to the ground as the board moves past vertical. This is

exactly what the hip does on the straightened leg side of the body.



Now let's think about the other side of the body, where the leg is

advancing from behind the body. Let's assume that you don't have any hip

drop and that side of the hip stays parallel with the hip on

straightened-leg side of the body. If you do that, then your whole body

will rise as your straightened-leg hip rises. You will be spending

energy moving your center of gravity up. This is wasted energy.



But, if you allow your hip to drop on the advancing-leg side of the body

by exactly the same amount that your hip rises on the straightened-leg

side of the body, the point in the middle of your body between the two

hips will not rise. Consequently, your center of gravity will remain the

same distance from the ground all through the stride. You won't waste

energy moving your center of gravity up and down (and your head will

move parallel to the ground, not bounce up and down like a runner or

jogger), and you can focus your energy on moving your body forward. Thus

the proper hip drop makes you a more efficient racewalker.







Dave McGovern:







From The Complete Guide to Racewalking (1998)



A hip drop should occur naturally after push-off: As the rear leg comes

forward,



and the foot loses contact with the ground, the hip is no longer

supported so it



drops slightly. This natural effect does not need to be learned,

exaggerated,



or fretted over.  I don't know why so many coaches bother confusing

their



athletes by talking about it.





I'll probably have more to say on the subject in my forthcoming book,

The

Complete Guide to Competive Walking (2009, I hope!) The only thing I

would add

now is that not only is the advancing hip not supported by that leg,

that leg

also weighs about 30-35 lbs. and is hanging from that side of the hip so

it

causes it to drop down. If you have a lot of lower back flexibility and

relatively loose pelvic ligaments, the hip will drop a lot, if you

don't, it

won't End of story. Put your effort into pelvic rotation, not drop.







Tim Seaman:



The section that you are referring to is on page 19-21 in Race Walk

Clinic - in

a Book, and while the diagrams might make it seem that there is a lot of

"drop",

in fact, the goal is to limit the drop as much as possible. We are just

showing

you what the hip does, and although it is a big diagram, it is actually

a very

small "drop".



It is impossible to limit all of the drop because as the swing leg comes

forward

the hip is more relaxed and it does drop slightly. The more side to side

or up

and down movement you have, the less eficient you will become. You want

to

think about the hips moving forward and you want to work on the

flexibility of

the hip flexors so that the rear foot will be able to stay on the ground

longer.

If the hips have excessive hip "drop" we do give you some exercises to

correct

this and other hip issues in Chapter 6.



If you look at the picture of Denis Nizhegorodov on page 19, you will

see superb

hip flexor flexibility. The reason that we chose that picture was

because you

can see the rear foot on the ground very far behind the body and you can

see the

opposite hip is still coming forward.



You should not think about the hip dropping at all, only moving forward.

The

hip will drop slightly naturally.







Ray Sharp:



I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the

other

esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with

the

Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!



But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about

is

this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than

the

bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg

quite a

bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and

make

the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that

include

some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the

rotation at

the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of

the

hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other

side

that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg

to

stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks

straight

at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across

the

body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve

like

the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can

just

look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK,

it's

an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.



Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to

back

motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride

length

will increase.







Dave McGovern:



I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hip-drop exists or has its

place.

The point is that it shouldn't be forced or overemphasized. Your

analysis of

the bent knee driving forward and the need to keep the foot low to the

ground are correct. But you're missing the action of the foot itself.

When

the feet are used properly (when the athlete pushes all the way to the

toes

and the rear foot leaves the ground oriented vertically/perpendicular to

the

ground) the foot will come through and under the body toes pointed down.

This allows for a great deal of knee bend (about 90 degrees) with the

toes

coming through only millimeters above the surface of the road or track.

Athletes who have a lot of natural hip-drop (Philip Dunn) can bring the

foot

through with the foot in a less-than toes-down orientation (Philip

brings

his foot through parallel to the ground when it's under his body.) But

this

comes back to Ray's statement that knee drive is important for speed.

Philip

has a very smooth style, and his amazing amount of hip mobility is a big

part of it. But his legs drive through much straighter than those of

most of

his competitors, so he's throwing a longer lever with more apparent

mass.

Lack of sufficient knee bend (related to foot orientation under the

body)

could explain why Philip's mile/3k/5k/10k and even 20k times never

matched

the level of his great 50k success.



Ray Sharp:



With the proper foot action at push off, the hip, thigh and knee will

begin

driving forward in the last instants before the toe rolls to the end and

leaves the ground. I don't mean that the knee will bend early, because

driving the hip and knee back are the key to power and stride length.

But

just at the end, the hip and knee will snap forward just a few

milliseconds

perhaps before the toe leaves the ground. In a simplified version, the

leg

is like a pendulum, but the truth is much more complex, and the impulse

of

the forward motion begins with the core muscles to the hip flexors and

so on

down the chain in a crack the whip type motion, with the hip and knee

moving

forward slightly sooner than the toe. That means the toe will "drag"

forward

pointing down, a bit behind or out of phase. Just before heel impact,

the

toe will be pulled up by the muscles on the front of the shin, ankle and

foot, while (guess what) the hip and knee have begun their backwards

path,

still slightly ahead of the foot, which is moving forward. This means

the

knee will have moved back (relative to the walker, not relative to the

ground) enough to straighten the leg as the heel strikes.



These are complicated motions. We simplify them so we can explain them

to

other people, and also so we can focus on a few key points when we walk.

When I have too much hip drop, like when I am tiring and my body is

"sagging" and sinking too much into the hyper-extended knee by rolling

too

much along the outside of the foot, it makes the shoulder of my forward

swinging arm drop too much and pulls my head to that side, giving me a

side

to side motion that the coaches and judges (Dave, Tom, Jeff, Tim,

Michael)

want us to avoid. If thinking about hip drop causes excessive side to

side

motion, it should be discouraged or dampened a little bit. Obviously,

forward motion is the goal.



If you think back to Ernesto Canto, he had a very quick and efficient

motion

with the knee bent quite a lot on the recovering leg, but his head went

side

to side. I think Jefferson Perez and the current women's Olympic

champion

(afraid I'll spell her name wrong) are better models, because they

achieve

the desired hip motion without much head motion.







Dave McGovern: Hip Drop - how to tell if you have it



Put on a shirt that is a very different color than your walking shorts.

Tuck the shirt in. This creates a roughly horizontal line between your

shorts and your shirts that is easy to see. If you wear the waist band

at or above the top edge of the hip bones (pelvic girdle), pull the

shorts down a little so the waist band goes across the top edge of the

hip bones. The goal is to have the line between you shorts and your

shirt to be on the top portion of your hips. Have a friend/spouse/coach

observe you from behind while you are race walking away from them. If

you have any hip drop, the observer should see the up/down motion of the

line between your shorts and your shirt. As a side benefit, you can

detect the dreaded hip sway (side to side movement) from these

observations too - just concentrate on the outside edge of either hip.



Hip rotation is easy to see too especially if you have access to a

treadmill. If you have a pair of shorts or warmup pants with a vertical

stripe down each side, wear those. Otherwise paperclip a small white

square to the waist band on each side of your shorts. Tuck your shirt

in, and position the waist band as described above for detecting hip

drop. Have a friend/spouse/coach observe you from the side while race

walking. Because your body stays in the same place while walking on the

treadmill, any forward and back movement of the vertical stripe or white

square is easy to see. You can still see it from a race walker going by,

but it will take a few times for a novice observer to see it, because

the race walkers body is moving too, and the hip rotation motion is

relative to the race walkers body. If the amount of forward motion looks

different than the amount of backwards motion, have the observer move to

the other side. This difference could be real, or it could be an

illusion. As a side benefit, you can see the relative sizes of the "in

front of the body" portion of the stride and the "behind the body"

portion of the stride.



If you do either of these on a treadmill, it makes it easier for the

observer, because the body of the race walker is not moving away from

the observer and the background objects are not changing. This gives the

observer a longer time to detect what is going on -- very useful for a

novice observer.



If the observer records what they see with a video camera, you'll be

able to see it too.











[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Everyone has given great answers regarding hip drop.  Good scientific

bio-mechanical reasoning.  I'm just wondering if it was "information overload"

for Steve who asked about it in the first place.  We understand it all because

we've been doing it forever but I think Steve must be a newbie or he wouldn't be

asking about it in the first place.



The "art of coaching" is the part where a good coach can explain everything that

was said but in clear layman's terms so the athlete can understand and then

apply what coach said.



I have found that sometimes I have to have a new racewalker overemphasize the

hip drop motion and hip rotation so they get the FEEL of racewalking as opposed

to just fast walking.  A good exercise I have them do is to cross their arms

with hands on their shoulders and then walk utilizing the hips, really

exaggerating the motion of the hips, so that they get the FEEL of the hip

rotation.  Its utilized as a drill.



But I always explain that true hip rotation and so-called "hip drop" happens

very quickly and should not be forced when actually training.  I got the feeling

from Steve's question that he thinks its something that lasts a short while and

he will feel it and then can do something about it.  Alot of new rwers I coach

have that same idea as well.



In coaching elite collegiate race walkers and local masters I have found there

are two types of new walkers:



one-those who have the correct form and technique already, good hip rotation, it

just comes naturally to them.

two-those who have no hip rotation, they walk fast but are not racewalking, and

despite my best cajoling, can't master the hip rotation aspect.  I put them

through drills, stretching routines that would make any yogi jealous, force them

to watch endless video of elite walkers, I've even made some guys take salsa

dance classes with their wives to learn to loosen their hips!, but alas, some

never master the technique.  It is at that point I sit them down and have a

serious talk about reality and perhaps adjusting goals.



I guess the conclusion I've come to is that either someone can do it or they

can't.  Not everyone was meant to racewalk at an elite level because it does

have a specific technique component.  If you have to think about it then its

going to be harder for you. If someone wants to "racewalk" for fun and fitness,

thats one thing, but to employ all the high end bio-, physio-, techno- elements

that have been mentioned, I think you probably already have the basic form and

technique in your repetoire.



Its like karaoke.  Lots of cats try but it only comes naturally to a select few.

I know I suck at karaoke, no amount of vocal lessons 'gonna change that, but at

least I'm realistic about my ability, and just have fun with it.  :)



Chris













>

> Steve Patat:

>

> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get

> a

> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving

> up

> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at

> a

> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move.

> I am

> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain

> why

> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it

> something

> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the

> drop?

> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all

> for

> your help.

>

>

>

> Tom Eastler:

>

> Don't create a hip drop!!!! It takes us years to retrain those who have

> exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip

> drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on

> just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating

> forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip

> drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to

> swing through with the leg. Hence more drop equals more knee bend and

> less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip

> rotation"). It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per

> stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers).

> Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed). The sway that Jeff mentions

> occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without

> hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is

> doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to

> direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).

>

>

>

> Michael Roth:

>

> To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is

> the

> result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

> accentuated by poor coaching.

>

>

>

> Brent Bohlen:

>

> I've been thinking about this some. Here are my thoughts on the purpose

> of the hip drop: The hip drop is on the side opposite the straightened

> leg, but first let's think about the hip on the side of the body where

> the leg is straightened at the time of heel strike. As the body moves

> over the straightened leg, the hip on that side of the body necessarily

> rises. Imagine that the straightened leg is a board. Visualize placing

> one end of the board on the ground and holding the board so it is not

> quite vertical (just as your leg is not quite vertical at heel strike).

> Then visualize moving the board into a vertical position (just as your

> leg moves to vertical as your body moves forward over the leg). As you

> move the board into a vertical position, the top end of the board will

> move farther from the ground until the board is vertical, and then will

> move closer to the ground as the board moves past vertical. This is

> exactly what the hip does on the straightened leg side of the body.

>

> Now let's think about the other side of the body, where the leg is

> advancing from behind the body. Let's assume that you don't have any hip

> drop and that side of the hip stays parallel with the hip on

> straightened-leg side of the body. If you do that, then your whole body

> will rise as your straightened-leg hip rises. You will be spending

> energy moving your center of gravity up. This is wasted energy.

>

> But, if you allow your hip to drop on the advancing-leg side of the body

> by exactly the same amount that your hip rises on the straightened-leg

> side of the body, the point in the middle of your body between the two

> hips will not rise. Consequently, your center of gravity will remain the

> same distance from the ground all through the stride. You won't waste

> energy moving your center of gravity up and down (and your head will

> move parallel to the ground, not bounce up and down like a runner or

> jogger), and you can focus your energy on moving your body forward. Thus

> the proper hip drop makes you a more efficient racewalker.

>

>

>

> Dave McGovern:

>

>

>

> From The Complete Guide to Racewalking (1998)

>

> A hip drop should occur naturally after push-off: As the rear leg comes

> forward,

>

> and the foot loses contact with the ground, the hip is no longer

> supported so it

>

> drops slightly. This natural effect does not need to be learned,

> exaggerated,

>

> or fretted over.  I don't know why so many coaches bother confusing

> their

>

> athletes by talking about it.

>

>

> I'll probably have more to say on the subject in my forthcoming book,

> The

> Complete Guide to Competive Walking (2009, I hope!) The only thing I

> would add

> now is that not only is the advancing hip not supported by that leg,

> that leg

> also weighs about 30-35 lbs. and is hanging from that side of the hip so

> it

> causes it to drop down. If you have a lot of lower back flexibility and

> relatively loose pelvic ligaments, the hip will drop a lot, if you

> don't, it

> won't End of story. Put your effort into pelvic rotation, not drop.

>

>

>

> Tim Seaman:

>

> The section that you are referring to is on page 19-21 in Race Walk

> Clinic - in

> a Book, and while the diagrams might make it seem that there is a lot of

> "drop",

> in fact, the goal is to limit the drop as much as possible. We are just

> showing

> you what the hip does, and although it is a big diagram, it is actually

> a very

> small "drop".

>

> It is impossible to limit all of the drop because as the swing leg comes

> forward

> the hip is more relaxed and it does drop slightly. The more side to side

> or up

> and down movement you have, the less eficient you will become. You want

> to

> think about the hips moving forward and you want to work on the

> flexibility of

> the hip flexors so that the rear foot will be able to stay on the ground

> longer.

> If the hips have excessive hip "drop" we do give you some exercises to

> correct

> this and other hip issues in Chapter 6.

>

> If you look at the picture of Denis Nizhegorodov on page 19, you will

> see superb

> hip flexor flexibility. The reason that we chose that picture was

> because you

> can see the rear foot on the ground very far behind the body and you can

> see the

> opposite hip is still coming forward.

>

> You should not think about the hip dropping at all, only moving forward.

> The

> hip will drop slightly naturally.

>

>

>

> Ray Sharp:

>

> I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the

> other

> esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

> scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

> follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

> direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with

> the

> Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!

>

> But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about

> is

> this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than

> the

> bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg

> quite a

> bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and

> make

> the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

> through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

> raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

> walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that

> include

> some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the

> rotation at

> the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of

> the

> hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other

> side

> that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg

> to

> stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks

> straight

> at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

> joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across

> the

> body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

> second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve

> like

> the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

> let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can

> just

> look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK,

> it's

> an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.

>

> Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to

> back

> motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride

> length

> will increase.

>

>

>

> Dave McGovern:

>

> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hip-drop exists or has its

> place.

> The point is that it shouldn't be forced or overemphasized. Your

> analysis of

> the bent knee driving forward and the need to keep the foot low to the

> ground are correct. But you're missing the action of the foot itself.

> When

> the feet are used properly (when the athlete pushes all the way to the

> toes

> and the rear foot leaves the ground oriented vertically/perpendicular to

> the

> ground) the foot will come through and under the body toes pointed down.

> This allows for a great deal of knee bend (about 90 degrees) with the

> toes

> coming through only millimeters above the surface of the road or track.

> Athletes who have a lot of natural hip-drop (Philip Dunn) can bring the

> foot

> through with the foot in a less-than toes-down orientation (Philip

> brings

> his foot through parallel to the ground when it's under his body.) But

> this

> comes back to Ray's statement that knee drive is important for speed.

> Philip

> has a very smooth style, and his amazing amount of hip mobility is a big

> part of it. But his legs drive through much straighter than those of

> most of

> his competitors, so he's throwing a longer lever with more apparent

> mass.

> Lack of sufficient knee bend (related to foot orientation under the

> body)

> could explain why Philip's mile/3k/5k/10k and even 20k times never

> matched

> the level of his great 50k success.

>

> Ray Sharp:

>

> With the proper foot action at push off, the hip, thigh and knee will

> begin

> driving forward in the last instants before the toe rolls to the end and

> leaves the ground. I don't mean that the knee will bend early, because

> driving the hip and knee back are the key to power and stride length.

> But

> just at the end, the hip and knee will snap forward just a few

> milliseconds

> perhaps before the toe leaves the ground. In a simplified version, the

> leg

> is like a pendulum, but the truth is much more complex, and the impulse

> of

> the forward motion begins with the core muscles to the hip flexors and

> so on

> down the chain in a crack the whip type motion, with the hip and knee

> moving

> forward slightly sooner than the toe. That means the toe will "drag"

> forward

> pointing down, a bit behind or out of phase. Just before heel impact,

> the

> toe will be pulled up by the muscles on the front of the shin, ankle and

> foot, while (guess what) the hip and knee have begun their backwards

> path,

> still slightly ahead of the foot, which is moving forward. This means

> the

> knee will have moved back (relative to the walker, not relative to the

> ground) enough to straighten the leg as the heel strikes.

>

> These are complicated motions. We simplify them so we can explain them

> to

> other people, and also so we can focus on a few key points when we walk.

> When I have too much hip drop, like when I am tiring and my body is

> "sagging" and sinking too much into the hyper-extended knee by rolling

> too

> much along the outside of the foot, it makes the shoulder of my forward

> swinging arm drop too much and pulls my head to that side, giving me a

> side

> to side motion that the coaches and judges (Dave, Tom, Jeff, Tim,

> Michael)

> want us to avoid. If thinking about hip drop causes excessive side to

> side

> motion, it should be discouraged or dampened a little bit. Obviously,

> forward motion is the goal.

>

> If you think back to Ernesto Canto, he had a very quick and efficient

> motion

> with the knee bent quite a lot on the recovering leg, but his head went

> side

> to side. I think Jefferson Perez and the current women's Olympic

> champion

> (afraid I'll spell her name wrong) are better models, because they

> achieve

> the desired hip motion without much head motion.

>

>

>

> Dave McGovern: Hip Drop - how to tell if you have it

>

> Put on a shirt that is a very different color than your walking shorts.

> Tuck the shirt in. This creates a roughly horizontal line between your

> shorts and your shirts that is easy to see. If you wear the waist band

> at or above the top edge of the hip bones (pelvic girdle), pull the

> shorts down a little so the waist band goes across the top edge of the

> hip bones. The goal is to have the line between you shorts and your

> shirt to be on the top portion of your hips. Have a friend/spouse/coach

> observe you from behind while you are race walking away from them. If

> you have any hip drop, the observer should see the up/down motion of the

> line between your shorts and your shirt. As a side benefit, you can

> detect the dreaded hip sway (side to side movement) from these

> observations too - just concentrate on the outside edge of either hip.

>

> Hip rotation is easy to see too especially if you have access to a

> treadmill. If you have a pair of shorts or warmup pants with a vertical

> stripe down each side, wear those. Otherwise paperclip a small white

> square to the waist band on each side of your shorts. Tuck your shirt

> in, and position the waist band as described above for detecting hip

> drop. Have a friend/spouse/coach observe you from the side while race

> walking. Because your body stays in the same place while walking on the

> treadmill, any forward and back movement of the vertical stripe or white

> square is easy to see. You can still see it from a race walker going by,

> but it will take a few times for a novice observer to see it, because

> the race walkers body is moving too, and the hip rotation motion is

> relative to the race walkers body. If the amount of forward motion looks

> different than the amount of backwards motion, have the observer move to

> the other side. This difference could be real, or it could be an

> illusion. As a side benefit, you can see the relative sizes of the "in

> front of the body" portion of the stride and the "behind the body"

> portion of the stride.

>

> If you do either of these on a treadmill, it makes it easier for the

> observer, because the body of the race walker is not moving away from

> the observer and the background objects are not changing. This gives the

> observer a longer time to detect what is going on -- very useful for a

> novice observer.

>

> If the observer records what they see with a video camera, you'll be

> able to see it too.

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

Chris,



I haven't found a person yet who can't actually experience the pelvic

rotation around the spine ("hip rotation") in a few minute technique

session on a treadmill.  It is easy to get them to walk on the treadmill

with hip rotation and admit that they actually are doing it

correctly....but occasionally very difficult to get them to remember

what they did once back on the track or road.  One can lecture all day

and show videos and live demonstrations all day, and achieve nothing in

the way of success with some walkers...but with appropriate use of a

treadmill those same walkers can achieve momentary success in the hip

rotation department and know what they must feel while on the track or road.



Tom





rael2003 wrote:

> Everyone has given great answers regarding hip drop.  Good scientific

bio-mechanical reasoning.  I'm just wondering if it was "information overload"

for Steve who asked about it in the first place.  We understand it all because

we've been doing it forever but I think Steve must be a newbie or he wouldn't be

asking about it in the first place.

>

> The "art of coaching" is the part where a good coach can explain everything

that was said but in clear layman's terms so the athlete can understand and then

apply what coach said.

>

> I have found that sometimes I have to have a new racewalker overemphasize the

hip drop motion and hip rotation so they get the FEEL of racewalking as opposed

to just fast walking.  A good exercise I have them do is to cross their arms

with hands on their shoulders and then walk utilizing the hips, really

exaggerating the motion of the hips, so that they get the FEEL of the hip

rotation.  Its utilized as a drill.

>

> But I always explain that true hip rotation and so-called "hip drop" happens

very quickly and should not be forced when actually training.  I got the feeling

from Steve's question that he thinks its something that lasts a short while and

he will feel it and then can do something about it.  Alot of new rwers I coach

have that same idea as well.

>

> In coaching elite collegiate race walkers and local masters I have found there

are two types of new walkers:

>

> one-those who have the correct form and technique already, good hip rotation,

it just comes naturally to them.

> two-those who have no hip rotation, they walk fast but are not racewalking,

and despite my best cajoling, can't master the hip rotation aspect.  I put them

through drills, stretching routines that would make any yogi jealous, force them

to watch endless video of elite walkers, I've even made some guys take salsa

dance classes with their wives to learn to loosen their hips!, but alas, some

never master the technique.  It is at that point I sit them down and have a

serious talk about reality and perhaps adjusting goals.

>

> I guess the conclusion I've come to is that either someone can do it or they

can't.  Not everyone was meant to racewalk at an elite level because it does

have a specific technique component.  If you have to think about it then its

going to be harder for you. If someone wants to "racewalk" for fun and fitness,

thats one thing, but to employ all the high end bio-, physio-, techno- elements

that have been mentioned, I think you probably already have the basic form and

technique in your repetoire.

>

> Its like karaoke.  Lots of cats try but it only comes naturally to a select

few.  I know I suck at karaoke, no amount of vocal lessons 'gonna change that,

but at least I'm realistic about my ability, and just have fun with it.  :)

>

> Chris

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>> Steve Patat:

>>

>> I am still trying to understand hip drop. When I make my stride I do get

>> a

>> feel that I am getting hip rotation(back and forward movement). I am not

>> sure my stride is longer in the rear. I get no feel for the hips moving

>> up

>> and down.(Sometimes I get a feeling they move out. I try to keep that at

>> a

>> minimum.) So I do not think I have any hip drop. I am reading Jeff's new

>> book which has a very detailed description of how the hips should move.

>> I am

>> just not sure why the hip drops. Could someone take a shot and explain

>> why

>> the hip should drop? Should it be a noticeable movement and is it

>> something

>> that should come as a natural movement or should I try to create the

>> drop?

>> Also, is it something I should be concerned about? Again, I thank all

>> for

>> your help.

>>

>>

>>

>> Tom Eastler:

>>

>> Don't create a hip drop!!!! It takes us years to retrain those who have

>> exaggerated hip drop to minimize it. There is no advantage to having hip

>> drop...since the hip that "drops" in single support phase (standing on

>> just one leg) is the unsupported hip which is supposed to be rotating

>> forward and bringing the unsupported leg with it, and the more that hip

>> drops the higher one has to lift the unsupported leg to get the foot to

>> swing through with the leg. Hence more drop equals more knee bend and

>> less rotation of hip girdle around the spine (so called "hip

>> rotation"). It is the "hip rotation" that allows us to gain inches per

>> stride over having no rotation at all (like so many, many racewalkers).

>> Hip drop is anathema (highly accursed). The sway that Jeff mentions

>> occurs when in the single support phase ever so slightly with or without

>> hip drop....when it occurs with hip drop id is often exaggerated and is

>> doubly cursed...it serves no useful purpose in that case and tends to

>> direct muscular energy in the wrong direction (sideways).

>>

>>

>>

>> Michael Roth:

>>

>> To further what Tom said, any excess hip movement (up, down, in, out) is

>> the

>> result of poor mechanics caused by weak glute, hip & core muscles and

>> accentuated by poor coaching.

>>

>>

>>

>> Brent Bohlen:

>>

>> I've been thinking about this some. Here are my thoughts on the purpose

>> of the hip drop: The hip drop is on the side opposite the straightened

>> leg, but first let's think about the hip on the side of the body where

>> the leg is straightened at the time of heel strike. As the body moves

>> over the straightened leg, the hip on that side of the body necessarily

>> rises. Imagine that the straightened leg is a board. Visualize placing

>> one end of the board on the ground and holding the board so it is not

>> quite vertical (just as your leg is not quite vertical at heel strike).

>> Then visualize moving the board into a vertical position (just as your

>> leg moves to vertical as your body moves forward over the leg). As you

>> move the board into a vertical position, the top end of the board will

>> move farther from the ground until the board is vertical, and then will

>> move closer to the ground as the board moves past vertical. This is

>> exactly what the hip does on the straightened leg side of the body.

>>

>> Now let's think about the other side of the body, where the leg is

>> advancing from behind the body. Let's assume that you don't have any hip

>> drop and that side of the hip stays parallel with the hip on

>> straightened-leg side of the body. If you do that, then your whole body

>> will rise as your straightened-leg hip rises. You will be spending

>> energy moving your center of gravity up. This is wasted energy.

>>

>> But, if you allow your hip to drop on the advancing-leg side of the body

>> by exactly the same amount that your hip rises on the straightened-leg

>> side of the body, the point in the middle of your body between the two

>> hips will not rise. Consequently, your center of gravity will remain the

>> same distance from the ground all through the stride. You won't waste

>> energy moving your center of gravity up and down (and your head will

>> move parallel to the ground, not bounce up and down like a runner or

>> jogger), and you can focus your energy on moving your body forward. Thus

>> the proper hip drop makes you a more efficient racewalker.

>>

>>

>>

>> Dave McGovern:

>>

>>

>>

>> From The Complete Guide to Racewalking (1998)

>>

>> A hip drop should occur naturally after push-off: As the rear leg comes

>> forward,

>>

>> and the foot loses contact with the ground, the hip is no longer

>> supported so it

>>

>> drops slightly. This natural effect does not need to be learned,

>> exaggerated,

>>

>> or fretted over.  I don't know why so many coaches bother confusing

>> their

>>

>> athletes by talking about it.

>>

>>

>> I'll probably have more to say on the subject in my forthcoming book,

>> The

>> Complete Guide to Competive Walking (2009, I hope!) The only thing I

>> would add

>> now is that not only is the advancing hip not supported by that leg,

>> that leg

>> also weighs about 30-35 lbs. and is hanging from that side of the hip so

>> it

>> causes it to drop down. If you have a lot of lower back flexibility and

>> relatively loose pelvic ligaments, the hip will drop a lot, if you

>> don't, it

>> won't End of story. Put your effort into pelvic rotation, not drop.

>>

>>

>>

>> Tim Seaman:

>>

>> The section that you are referring to is on page 19-21 in Race Walk

>> Clinic - in

>> a Book, and while the diagrams might make it seem that there is a lot of

>> "drop",

>> in fact, the goal is to limit the drop as much as possible. We are just

>> showing

>> you what the hip does, and although it is a big diagram, it is actually

>> a very

>> small "drop".

>>

>> It is impossible to limit all of the drop because as the swing leg comes

>> forward

>> the hip is more relaxed and it does drop slightly. The more side to side

>> or up

>> and down movement you have, the less eficient you will become. You want

>> to

>> think about the hips moving forward and you want to work on the

>> flexibility of

>> the hip flexors so that the rear foot will be able to stay on the ground

>> longer.

>> If the hips have excessive hip "drop" we do give you some exercises to

>> correct

>> this and other hip issues in Chapter 6.

>>

>> If you look at the picture of Denis Nizhegorodov on page 19, you will

>> see superb

>> hip flexor flexibility. The reason that we chose that picture was

>> because you

>> can see the rear foot on the ground very far behind the body and you can

>> see the

>> opposite hip is still coming forward.

>>

>> You should not think about the hip dropping at all, only moving forward.

>> The

>> hip will drop slightly naturally.

>>

>>

>>

>> Ray Sharp:

>>

>> I'm, going to have to agree with Mr. Bohlen and disagree with all the

>> other

>> esteemed commentators, successful athletes, coaches and learned racewalk

>> scholars all. I accept their verdict and would not recommend that anyone

>> follow my advice when the preponderance of opinion is in the other

>> direction. My ideas are outdated, as I formed them while training with

>> the

>> Mexican team in 1980 - eons ago!

>>

>> But!!! The reason I think hip drop is something important to think about

>> is

>> this - the straight, supporting leg, when at vertical, is longer than

>> the

>> bent leg swinging forward. It is desirable to bend the advancing leg

>> quite a

>> bit, not as much as a runner does, but enough to shorten the lever and

>> make

>> the foot get forward quicker. If the hips are level, the foot will come

>> through too high, which is inefficient because the center of gravity is

>> raised, and also because it gives the appearance of lifting. The best

>> walkers, at least the ones who appear legal, have flexible hips that

>> include

>> some vertical motion along with the front to back motion and the

>> rotation at

>> the spine the causes the feet to land in line. To repeat, the purpose of

>> the

>> hip drop as the leg swings forward, and the shoulder drop on the other

>> side

>> that happens naturally for balance, is to allow foot of the swinging leg

>> to

>> stay low, skimming just above the ground, and then the leg flicks

>> straight

>> at the instant of contact and the hip begins to rise. A point on the hip

>> joint moves in all three planes - front to back, up and down, and across

>> the

>> body like a sine curve seen from above. Ignoring the last of these for a

>> second, think about it in 2 dimensions: The hip will move in a curve

>> like

>> the sine curve or more accurately like one of those cycloid things. But

>> let's simplify further, by fixing the walker on a treadmill so we can

>> just

>> look at the motion in 2 dimensions relative to the walker's center. OK,

>> it's

>> an ellipse (oval), with both a front to back and an up and down motion.

>>

>> Now, to the place we can all agree on - if you increase your front to

>> back

>> motion, the ellipse will be longer than it is tall, and your stride

>> length

>> will increase.

>>

>>

>>

>> Dave McGovern:

>>

>> I don't think anyone is disagreeing that hip-drop exists or has its

>> place.

>> The point is that it shouldn't be forced or overemphasized. Your

>> analysis of

>> the bent knee driving forward and the need to keep the foot low to the

>> ground are correct. But you're missing the action of the foot itself.

>> When

>> the feet are used properly (when the athlete pushes all the way to the

>> toes

>> and the rear foot leaves the ground oriented vertically/perpendicular to

>> the

>> ground) the foot will come through and under the body toes pointed down.

>> This allows for a great deal of knee bend (about 90 degrees) with the

>> toes

>> coming through only millimeters above the surface of the road or track.

>> Athletes who have a lot of natural hip-drop (Philip Dunn) can bring the

>> foot

>> through with the foot in a less-than toes-down orientation (Philip

>> brings

>> his foot through parallel to the ground when it's under his body.) But

>> this

>> comes back to Ray's statement that knee drive is important for speed.

>> Philip

>> has a very smooth style, and his amazing amount of hip mobility is a big

>> part of it. But his legs drive through much straighter than those of

>> most of

>> his competitors, so he's throwing a longer lever with more apparent

>> mass.

>> Lack of sufficient knee bend (related to foot orientation under the

>> body)

>> could explain why Philip's mile/3k/5k/10k and even 20k times never

>> matched

>> the level of his great 50k success.

>>

>> Ray Sharp:

>>

>> With the proper foot action at push off, the hip, thigh and knee will

>> begin

>> driving forward in the last instants before the toe rolls to the end and

>> leaves the ground. I don't mean that the knee will bend early, because

>> driving the hip and knee back are the key to power and stride length.

>> But

>> just at the end, the hip and knee will snap forward just a few

>> milliseconds

>> perhaps before the toe leaves the ground. In a simplified version, the

>> leg

>> is like a pendulum, but the truth is much more complex, and the impulse

>> of

>> the forward motion begins with the core muscles to the hip flexors and

>> so on

>> down the chain in a crack the whip type motion, with the hip and knee

>> moving

>> forward slightly sooner than the toe. That means the toe will "drag"

>> forward

>> pointing down, a bit behind or out of phase. Just before heel impact,

>> the

>> toe will be pulled up by the muscles on the front of the shin, ankle and

>> foot, while (guess what) the hip and knee have begun their backwards

>> path,

>> still slightly ahead of the foot, which is moving forward. This means

>> the

>> knee will have moved back (relative to the walker, not relative to the

>> ground) enough to straighten the leg as the heel strikes.

>>

>> These are complicated motions. We simplify them so we can explain them

>> to

>> other people, and also so we can focus on a few key points when we walk.

>> When I have too much hip drop, like when I am tiring and my body is

>> "sagging" and sinking too much into the hyper-extended knee by rolling

>> too

>> much along the outside of the foot, it makes the shoulder of my forward

>> swinging arm drop too much and pulls my head to that side, giving me a

>> side

>> to side motion that the coaches and judges (Dave, Tom, Jeff, Tim,

>> Michael)

>> want us to avoid. If thinking about hip drop causes excessive side to

>> side

>> motion, it should be discouraged or dampened a little bit. Obviously,

>> forward motion is the goal.

>>

>> If you think back to Ernesto Canto, he had a very quick and efficient

>> motion

>> with the knee bent quite a lot on the recovering leg, but his head went

>> side

>> to side. I think Jefferson Perez and the current women's Olympic

>> champion

>> (afraid I'll spell her name wrong) are better models, because they

>> achieve

>> the desired hip motion without much head motion.

>>

>>

>>

>> Dave McGovern: Hip Drop - how to tell if you have it

>>

>> Put on a shirt that is a very different color than your walking shorts.

>> Tuck the shirt in. This creates a roughly horizontal line between your

>> shorts and your shirts that is easy to see. If you wear the waist band

>> at or above the top edge of the hip bones (pelvic girdle), pull the

>> shorts down a little so the waist band goes across the top edge of the

>> hip bones. The goal is to have the line between you shorts and your

>> shirt to be on the top portion of your hips. Have a friend/spouse/coach

>> observe you from behind while you are race walking away from them. If

>> you have any hip drop, the observer should see the up/down motion of the

>> line between your shorts and your shirt. As a side benefit, you can

>> detect the dreaded hip sway (side to side movement) from these

>> observations too - just concentrate on the outside edge of either hip.

>>

>> Hip rotation is easy to see too especially if you have access to a

>> treadmill. If you have a pair of shorts or warmup pants with a vertical

>> stripe down each side, wear those. Otherwise paperclip a small white

>> square to the waist band on each side of your shorts. Tuck your shirt

>> in, and position the waist band as described above for detecting hip

>> drop. Have a friend/spouse/coach observe you from the side while race

>> walking. Because your body stays in the same place while walking on the

>> treadmill, any forward and back movement of the vertical stripe or white

>> square is easy to see. You can still see it from a race walker going by,

>> but it will take a few times for a novice observer to see it, because

>> the race walkers body is moving too, and the hip rotation motion is

>> relative to the race walkers body. If the amount of forward motion looks

>> different than the amount of backwards motion, have the observer move to

>> the other side. This difference could be real, or it could be an

>> illusion. As a side benefit, you can see the relative sizes of the "in

>> front of the body" portion of the stride and the "behind the body"

>> portion of the stride.

>>

>> If you do either of these on a treadmill, it makes it easier for the

>> observer, because the body of the race walker is not moving away from

>> the observer and the background objects are not changing. This gives the

>> observer a longer time to detect what is going on -- very useful for a

>> novice observer.

>>

>> If the observer records what they see with a video camera, you'll be

>> able to see it too.

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>

>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>>

>>

>

>

>

>

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Chris, I have been doing what I call racewalking for 5-6 years

(occasionally). I believe I am legal. I am very slow and want to go faster.

At my best I was around 12 minute miles. Now, after not walking except on

the tread mill at the gym, for the last several years, I am 14 minute miles.

One of my goals is to be a "real" RW. To me that means getting to 10 minute

miles. Sunday I made 6 miles. I am pretty sure I held my form to the end. My

pulse hit 180 close to the end. I know I have to get a better base.

Hopefully I will stay the course and get fitter. The reason for my question

is I do not feel a noticeable hip drop like a lot of the pictures of elite

walkers. I wanted to make sure that the hip drop is not one of the pieces to

make you go faster.  After all the generous comments I do believe I have to

have some hip drop. It only makes sense if you take the leg away the hip has

to drop. I now think I do not need to exaggerate the hip drop, so maybe that

part is OK. This morning I thought about keeping the back foot on the ground

longer and getting more rotation of the hips. When I could focus on this I

believe I got a longer stride. I hope as my fitness gets better I will be

able to increase my cadence and maybe go faster. I don't think the big guys

have much to worry about from me. It is fun and healthy. Steve















[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]