Thank the Lord for people like Nnenna who have a real sense of what is
important. Rocky, you really need to take it easy. Frankly, I couldn't
even read your lengthy email -- it was just too long and filled with insults
that really were unnecessary. The Central Park Game, even in your absence,
will always emphasize having fun and making it inviting to new players.
This whole stall count voting stupidity needs to come to an end. No one
really cares about the "Nomads" vote, and contrary to what you think, most
people prefer to play the game the way everyone else in the world plays it.
Yes, there was a time when the "Nomads" group under your leadership made up
the majority on a given Saturday. This is not the case anymore. Just
relax and enjoy the sun in Florida.


From: Nnenna Ogwo <nogwo@...>
Reply-To: nycUltimate@yahoogroups.com
To: nycUltimate@yahoogroups.com, nycpul@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [nycUltimate] Re: Perhaps this has gone far enough?
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 12:05:56 -0800 (PST)

To Whom It May or May Not concern,

Maybe we should let this rest? I hesitate to add to mix but I do so because
things are getting a bit bitchy and whatever ultimate is supposed to be
about, it's certainly is not this. Debate is fabulous and we should all
engage in it but I do think people have gotten a bit heavy handed with the
verbal slams. Rocky, I think you know that Players Player awards are just
as much about general popularity as anything else (absolutely no slight to
Hunt's skills intended), so whether or not Doc or Propp or Keith has won it
is irrelevant.

Maybe the only truly important things to consider are these: Jamie is our
current commissioner. Every year he sponsors a vote and abides by the
decision of the group. You can't ask for much more than that. Rocky
started a wonderful thing, but no longer lives here. He plays in NYC when
he visits and we enjoy seeing him around. I would like to suggest that his
comments are well articulated but considering his location sometimes feel
intrusive...but it's just a suggestion. Regardless, as one of the founders
of Saturday/Nomad ultimate, his emotional investment will continue to be
significant and we should understand that. The doctor has an excellent
point about stall counts...in fact, everyone makes an excellent point as far
as I can tell. I truly doubt, however, that anyone is going to not show up
to certain games if they don't get the vote they want. The truth is that
limited "field" space means that we are all in this together.

Before things devolve into a Rocky/Doc slamfest, maybe we should remind
everyone that these players at their best (and on their best behavior) are
great to play with and be around. I have always admired Rocky's constant
awareness of new people and his willingness to keep throwing to them to help
them develop their skills, Keith has always been more than willing to share
his knowledge of the sport to newcomers, Doc has always been generous with
his compliments regarding great plays or the improving skills of newcomers
and the list of awesome people and players goes on and on.

The weather is getting consistently more gorgeous. I certainly haven't been
around for a while but I hope that everyone has been well and look forward
to seeing ya'll on the field soon.

Best,

Nnenna


Pano Anastasato <Anastasato@...> wrote:







Dear the doctor,



With at least equal respect I make the following reply:



While I know from personal experience you have on the mark command of the
disc and the game of Ultimate, your command of the facts is complete swill.
Every group of Ultimate I have been familiar is the providence of its
creators, their supporters, and has various norms. The Nomads created the
Saturday afternoon game in the late 1980s and migrated to the dustbowl in
the late 90s. (In so doing our group overwhelmed and intimidated away or
absorbed Mark Lim's much smaller group of newbie Ultimate players from his
church.) With the move from middle of the park to the more out the way
Upper East Side, normal attrition was not being replaced by new players at
previous year's rates (location, location, location).



My solution in May of 2000 was to list the game on UPA.org pick-up link. I
have encouraged Jamie to update it because it generates at least several
dozen e-mail inquiries a year. To save you the trouble, look at what a
divisive thing I wrote and UPA chose to post: (however they have since
edited out my reference to “type-A” personalities – political correct police
are everywhere!)







-- Manhattan --
Manhattan, New York

Where:



When:

Central Park



Tuesday



6:00

pm







Saturday



2:30

pm









Tuesday game is memorial day to labor day. Central Park - East Meadow (97th
St- 100th St & 5th Ave.) (Nomadic Pick-UP Players - Refugees from Frisbee
Hill) Casual games to 21, no stall or stacks, coed, urban field, lot of
laughs, small numbers, all ages, seeking more regulars and those just
passing through. Come be part of our melting pot if the temperature is over
50 degrees. For more competitive play same field on Sunday afternoon is
teaming with multiple scrimmages. Anastasato@...

Contact InfoAnastasato@...



So I plugged both games and truthfully said the Sunday was more serious and
popular. Almost immediately the Nomad game became so successful that summer
that demand dictated we add a Thursday game too. From then on it was not
uncommon on two have up to three games going at once sometimes, even on a
Tuesday evening. So the World Wide Web made up for the bad location and I
presume most new players tried both days games. A certain percentage of
players, even while we are at Frisbee Hill, were both Nomads and Sunday
players (CPU was their acronym).



When Victoria and I created the group and the rules variations it was
deliberately designed to simplify the game, encourage friendliness, ensure
fairness, and favor the offense more than traditional group structure and
rule interpretation. And at the same time we wanted to highlight for
emulation and appreciation great player performance with individual rewards
in ever increasing number of categories. Further we decided to annually poll
the regular members for their opinions and modify the rules in accordance to
the wishes of the majority of veterans playing.



Over the years the Nomads have voted to:

- allow players to wear cleats (by just 1 vote)

- to limit the numbers of players on a team to seven (record single
game participation was 22 versus 23 playes)

- migrate from Frisbee Hill to the Dustbowl

- affirm the Commissioner and the Commissionership (23, including
you, to 1)

- have a free and unobstructed throw to the brick

- have captained teams or games to three; not last backs

- night rules

- not have teams of lights and darks

- have and then not to have unlimited depth end zones

- not have a stall but experienced players are expected to move disc
with ten seconds



What rules does Sunday play with and who sets and maintains them? For there
a bunch of rules in the current edition that Sunday play does not subscribe
too. I just coached/played at a beach tourney that was four on four with
stall six. By your definition that is not Ultimate either or it’s watered
down Ultimate or it’s more supped-up Ultimate. Every non-UPA tourney or
pick-up group all have had different rules enforced by tradition and group
consensus or the organizer’s whims.



Therefore it follows that anyone who enjoys or enjoyed Saturday Central
Park Ultimate play owes gratitude and respect to the Nomads for having such
a welcoming and popular structure that has stood the test of time. Yet this
group has also democratically evolved to suit the changing nature of its
member’s skills and desires. If you read Nomad e-mails then you are probably
a Nomad. If you participate in Nomad discussions, awards, and rules votes,
then you most likely are a Nomad. And if you played on a league team called
the Nomads comprised of all dustbowl players there is a very good chance
that you are or at least were a Nomad. But you can be other things too like
the creator of a counter-Nomad e-group masquerading as a Sunday site.



I do not know the results of this year’s vote on the stall but I have seen a
major sampling of those choosing to reply directly with their ballot. And I
can tell you that the demographics are pretty astonishing. So I ask again
what is such an affront to your Ultimate sensibility if a subset says they
like a game with no stall better? And why some find it surprising that an
even larger number of players want to provide that Ultimate environment for
them only reveals their own myopia..



Further, notice from the meaningless, slanted, and jealousy exposing polls
that Keith posted on NYCPUL and this site, that those participating votes
are not anonymous and subject to ballot box stuffing. It prints out
everyone’s e-mails address in accoradance with how they voted. If some
wanted to get their pals to join the e-group and vote the way instructed
there is no check on that. Just like a single individual could signs-up to
same group with multiple identities. Those kinds of Ohio like irregularities
are eliminated when someone with such high Ultimate credibility as the
Commissioner and his administration are auditing the vote.



Hunt Clark, arguably the leader of CPU, was playing with the Nomads - in
accordance Nomad rules - and receiving awards nominations and votes while I
was still running the games, even before NYCPUL was formed. His compliant
participation in the group, despite his known qualms with Nomad rules and
supervision, was an unspoken but appreciated major endorsement for the
Nomads and has contributed to the group’s success. Some have said that he
has mellowed; some have said the Nomads have made him a nicer and more
considerate person, but no question he is a very talented player and the
Nomads were happy to have him as a well behaved skills role model. His
winning the MVP is not surprising to me; by contrast, you or Keith getting
any real votes for the Players’ Player award: that would be a surprise.



For to write that people who vote for upholding the traditional rules are
“naive” and “brainwashed” greatly overestimates the powers of the current
and former leaders of the Nomads. And it further greatly underestimates the
insightful thoughtfulness of your fellow New York Ultimate player. We would
have had far more than a team of seven former or current Nomads at recent
Florida tourney if we had that kind of power.



Jamie experimented with a stall in a second game during the 2004 regular
season and has tolerated lax enforcement of the no stall rule during this
last Xtreme season (another Nomad innovation). But the latest vote is for
the upcoming vastly more popular regular spring and summers seasons. And the
ballot polls an electorate far greater in numbers then those choosing to
respond to that recent NYCPUL and NYCULTIMATE e-group votes: probably more
than both polls combined. 2003 versus 2004 saw hard core player
participation up but overall attendance numbers where down. I could see why
you would want that to continue and why you and your supporters would
vehemently attack anything that upsets what others find an upsetting trend.
People who vote for no stall are voting to create a game they will find more
appealing and this will likely increase their own participation. The Nomad
game is supposed to be for regular players to be comfortable to bring their
pals to see if they might like
Ultimate too.



To claim that you will not participate should the majority vote against your
wishes after being allowed a chance to voice your opinion and after choosing
to vote in an election is within your rights. But to state that one
potential outcome will result in you showing up and willfully not complying
with the wishes of the majority and encouraging others to do the same is
miles beyond bad spirit. It is an attempt at a coup.



Again if you are unhappy and you have the popular support to start another
game at another time, or at the same time at another place, more power to
you. But to advocate that you, and some folks that feel that there should be
an audible stall, take over by fiat what they could not win in an election
is about the most disappointing behavior in the group’s history. And that
would be just as unfair and divisive as a bunch of Nomads showing up early
and taking over the Sunday game by insisting that there be no stall count.



Why is it so hard for some to imagine, in a city that is more competitive
than anywhere else, that a large percentage of players would see it as more
important to have an Ultimate structure where fairness and a welcoming-
skill nurturing environment is favored over last backs, stacked teams, fast
counts, and endless arguments? I am obviously very proud of the group I
helped create and managed for many years. The dozens of written and oral
testaments of appreciation I have received over the years, including one
from you, are precious to me. The fact is that many players whose game and
personalities I highly respect have voted to maintain traditional Nomad
rules have done so primarily because they have higher values than playing a
game that is faithful as possible to the 11 edition.



To the “Blah, blah, blah” and “Shut-up & Play” this is why the Nomads have
codified rules. To maximize play time and minimize on field arguments, off
field debate is strongly encouraged. Everyone has an Ultimate opinion based
on their own Ultimate experiences; those commenting on a stall game that
they have never played in it are of course speaking from complete ignorance.
But worse of all would be those that use inaccuracies and distortions in
their arguments to push rules reform that is more suitable to them.



My Ultimate girlfriend points out that you all know about how long ten
seconds is and are smart enough to know that you should at least huck it
away for a punt if it gets close in your mind. Failure to move the disk in
time by an experienced player, to the Nomads, is bad spirit worse than even
spiking or taunting. And over the years it has been you and your best buddy
that have generated the most complaints, each of you more than all other
players combined.. There was even an official warning while I was Commish.
And everyone knows you exploit this rule for two reasons: more time to find
your one true favorite receiver you love to hit and secondly as a statement
to the group that you think there should not be a stall because this is how
one can take an unfair advantage. I think the real advantage you are taking
is of a very sweet, patient, considerate, and harmony seeking current
Commish. For if I was still running the show it would have been off with
your head for the mere threat!



Most Respectfully and with Utmost Sincerity,

Rocky


drultimate <scotthalpern@...> wrote:
Rocky,

With all due respect, since you moved to Florida many years ago, you
seem to have lost touch with what is going on here in New York City
in the Central Park Ultimate Community. The so-called "Nomads"
group no longer makes up the majority on Saturday afternoons. In
fact, there is very little distinction between the group that plays
on Saturdays and Sundays. To prove my point, Hunt Clark (someone
you would clearly label historically as a "Sunday" player) was voted
MVP on the Nomads Site. Hunt, a stall-count supporter, is one of
many players who now appear on any given Saturday or Sunday.

I suggest you read the recent post by Chefdisc that very
articulately makes the case for a stall count. However, why anyone
needs to make a case for the stall count is beyond me. That is the
way Ultimate is played and, contrary to what you think, has no
bearing on whether people (old or new) will enjoy themselves.

Ultimately yours,
the doctor

--- In nycUltimate@yahoogroups.com, Pano Anastasato
<Anastasato@y...> wrote:
> Hi Dr. Jon -
>
> I agree with you that the Sunday game should remain audible stall
calls to ten. But you are mistaken about one thing, if you played
on a Saturday afternoon in Central Park in the last 15 years (say
the last decade in the dust bowl and before that on Frisbee Hill)
then you were playing in a Nomad game and there was no stall count.
If others found this format such an affront I encourage them to
start another Saturday game say in the morning allow their bodies
even more recovery time between the next "pure" Ultimate game Sunday
afternoon. For someone to claim that that will audibly count stalls
in defiance of the majority should the latest vote be against their
wishes is beyond bad spirit. And it is proof of the need for
leadership with the capacity to sanction bad behavior.
>
> Again all this debate misses the point that if there is a
percentage out there that does not want to be stalled on or to stall
count, a very successful game was created and supported by an even
larger percentage of player that wish to accommodate them. And if
the first rule of Ultimate is that hard contact is to be avoided at
all costs then perhaps the second one is that two captains can
change the rules to suit their preferences. The Nomads have codified
this over many years in the only Ultimate rules votes I know about
anything, anywhere.
>
> All other proposed solutions only serve to point more unwanted
attention on the new players with no stall on them only, or do-
overs, and all that also slows the game down. The Nomad solution
puts the pressure on experienced players that can be harangued in as
little as six seconds for not moving disc while newbies are never
penalized or admonished or singled out. The claim that it is somehow
more dangerous is as ludicrous as claiming that a stall seven game
is less dangerous than a stall ten game.
>
> Go Ups to You!
> Rocky
>
>
> grossacres@a... wrote:
> Frankly,
>
> I did not think there was a debate regarding stall on Sunday. At
the risk of sounding like a dinosaur, I think at the very least
Stall should be preserved on Sunday and in fact extending to
Saturday. Furthermore, when was the Saturday arbitrarily considered
a "Nomad" game. I have been playing ultimat in Central Park for
over 15 years and the Saturday game originated long before the
Nomads.
>
> Dr. Jon
>
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