Also, here are some that are a little more adventurous:
Medicine wheel trail junkies
the medicine wheel workforce
Medicine wheel cooperative
Medicine wheel visionaries
the medicine wheel operative
Thanks for including all of us in the naming, it’s something fun to kick around on a Monday.
Also, remember that the trade name that you register is more for legal reasons than for logo and other naming projects. More or less you use the full trade name to let people know that they are dealing with a corporation, so “Medicine Wheel” on its own will still stand up fine in a lot of applications. Being a graphic designer and working on many logo and naming conventions, I know more on this stuff than any sane person should.
On 2/5/05 7:40 AM, "MEDWHEELJO@..." <MEDWHEELJO@...> wrote:
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt
Medicine Wheel
Medwheeljo@...
719-216-4803 (c)
I like what Neil has offered - It doesn't take away from the Medicine Wheel title but simply clarifies our locale; alternatively Medicine Wheel of the Pikes Peak Area/Region.
How about if you look at the logo for the group itself...... "Pikes Peak Area Medicine Wheel" Inc.!
That my suggestion.
Neil P. Kovac "Fishers of Men" Music Outreach Ministry 7141 Metropolitan Street Colorado Springs, Colorado 80911 Phone: 719-390-6187 e-mail: npkovac@...
"The Artist is nothing without the gift, the gift is nothing without work." Emile Zola
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@... 719-216-4803 (c)
From: Jim Houk Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005
8:53 AM To: MEDWHEELJO@...;
medicine_wheel_PPR@yahoogroups.com; mail@...;
josho@...; tony.orr@...; jyount@...;
tlefere@...; chebel1971@...; mtb@...;
Jazewun@...; erik@...; npkovac@...;
ridethat420@...; ryan.sanders@...; timti@...;
Dspinman@...; hlwddave@...; Keith@...;
tony.c.orr@...; dheming@...; JBoobar@...;
Devin_Allen@...; Mambrose-Cartelsales@...; DGilbert@...;
CSutela@...; dug33@... Subject: RE: Medicine Wheel -
Whats in a name?
I will start it off…
Medicine Wheel Colorado… Medicine Wheel West….
Medicine Wheel & Friends…. Medicine Wheel Trail Hands….
Medicine Wheel Partnership… Medicine Wheel -On the Trail….
Jim Houk, RLA
THOMAS & THOMAS 614 N. Tejon Street Colorado Springs, CO80903
Ph# 719.578.8777
Fx# 719.578.8495 www.ttplan.net
-----Original Message----- From: MEDWHEELJO@...
[mailto:MEDWHEELJO@...] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005
7:40 AM To: medicine_wheel_PPR@yahoogroups.com;
mail@...; josho@...; tony.orr@...;
jyount@...; tlefere@...; chebel1971@...;
mtb@...; Jazewun@...; erik@...; npkovac@...;
ridethat420@...; ryan.sanders@...; timti@...;
Dspinman@...; hlwddave@...; Keith@...;
tony.c.orr@...; dheming@...; JBoobar@...;
Devin_Allen@...; Mambrose-Cartelsales@...; DGilbert@...;
CSutela@...; dug33@... Subject: Medicine Wheel - Whats in
a name?
In
Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit
organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel
Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most,
if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is.
But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail
maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible
mountain cyclist.
It has
been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we
would consider two.
First thoughts:
Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel
Trail Advocacy.
Thanks
for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt
Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@...
719-216-4803 (c)
How about if you look at the logo for the group itself...... "Pikes Peak Area Medicine Wheel" Inc.!
That my suggestion.
Neil P. Kovac "Fishers of Men" Music Outreach Ministry 7141 Metropolitan Street Colorado Springs, Colorado 80911 Phone: 719-390-6187 e-mail: npkovac@...
"The Artist is nothing without the gift, the gift is nothing without work." Emile Zola
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@... 719-216-4803 (c)
If we limit ourselves to a two word addition I'd go with the Trail Advocacy. I'd love to see Mountain Bike's included in the title, because MW has expanded beyond trail advocacy but it gets too long. See ya soon.
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@... 719-216-4803 (c)
Medicine Wheel Colorado… Medicine
Wheel West…. Medicine Wheel & Friends…. Medicine Wheel Trail Hands….
Medicine Wheel Partnership… Medicine Wheel -On the Trail….
Jim Houk, RLA
THOMAS & THOMAS
614 N. Tejon Street
Colorado Springs, CO 80903
Ph# 719.578.8777
Fx# 719.578.8495 www.ttplan.net
-----Original Message----- From: MEDWHEELJO@...
[mailto:MEDWHEELJO@...] Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005
7:40 AM To:
medicine_wheel_PPR@yahoogroups.com; mail@...; josho@...;
tony.orr@...; jyount@...; tlefere@...;
chebel1971@...; mtb@...; Jazewun@...; erik@...;
npkovac@...; ridethat420@...; ryan.sanders@...;
timti@...; Dspinman@...; hlwddave@...;
Keith@...; tony.c.orr@...; dheming@...;
JBoobar@...; Devin_Allen@...; Mambrose-Cartelsales@...;
DGilbert@...; CSutela@...; dug33@... Subject: Medicine Wheel - Whats in
a name?
In
Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit
organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel
Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most,
if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is.
But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail
maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible
mountain cyclist.
It has
been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we
would consider two.
First thoughts:
Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel
Trail Advocacy.
Thanks
for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt
Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@...
719-216-4803 (c)
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@... 719-216-4803 (c)
In Medicine Wheel's pursuit of incorporating as a 501 (c) 3 non-profit organization we have learned that the name "Medicine Wheel Inc." is already being used. Thus, we are challenged with a name change.
Most, if not all of us, feel very strongly about the Medicine Wheel name as it is. But we are asking for your ideas that convey our true interests in trail maintenance, environmental sustainability and advocating for responsible mountain cyclist.
It has been recommended that a one word addition to our existing name is best, but we would consider two.
First thoughts: Medicine Wheel Trails, Medicine Wheel Tracks, or Medicine Wheel Trail Advocacy.
Thanks for the energy, and let us know what you think,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel Medwheeljo@... 719-216-4803 (c)
Here's a link to the page where the just released plan for Gold Camp Road is
posted. For those that haven't heard, the Forest Service plans to open Gold
Camp Road to one way (up) motor vehicle traffic (their "Alternative C"). I
haven't read the whole thing yet, but I did find it interesting that in
Chapter 2 (table on page 2-28) that there is no mention of the effect of
opening the road to all of the current users of the road (they do say
decreased off-leash pets and increase in use of trails by mountain bikes,
but they otherwise say "no effect to other existing recreation uses!") What
are they smoking!?! (please excuse my editorial comment!)
I highly encourage all to read this. The upside of the favored alternative
is development of more trails in the area (always a positive for us), but
the downside is the displacement of the current users of Gold Camp Road (no
more walking with your kids & dogs on the road, no more teaching your kids
how to ride a bike on the road, etc.). I've mixed emotions myself, but I'd
probably give up some extra trails if the other users would still be able to
use the road. Anyway, here's the link:
http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/projects/gold_camp/gold_camp_draftEIS.shtml
Jim Yount
(719) 540-1505
jyount@...
NEMBA and IMBA need a little help from mountain bikers around the country in our efforts to protect mountain bike access in New Hampshire's White Mountain National Forest. Comments from out-of-state visitors or potential visitors are important to the US Forest Service as they finalize their management plan. We've even made it super-easy by providing a cut-and-paste comment that can be send via email or snail mail. I'd really appreicate some help from advocates around the country! Thanks!
Here's the scoop:
Friday, December 17th is the last day to submit comments about the proposed White Mountain National Forest Plan. After this point, there will be little opportunity in helping to shape the policies that affect mountain biking in this National Forest.
There are two areas that NEMBA and IMBA are primarily concerned about.
**The Forest Service is proposing to limit cycling only to trails that are posted open, and we are concerned that this will dramatically limit cyclists' ability to recreate and enjoy the forest.
**Secondly, there are a few key trails that would be closed to bikes if the Wilderness designation is expanded. We urge you to refer to these specific trails so that they can be removed from the Wilderness plan.
Even if you do not regularly ride in the White Mountain National Forest, we hope that you'll take a couple of minutes and send in your comments. Numbers count! To make it as easy as possible for you, we've created a sample letter. In the best of all worlds, please try to personalize it into your own voice. However, if you don't have the time, simply pass it along as is. Don't forget to include your name and address.
I am writing with regard to the U.S. Forest Service's White Mountain National Forest Plan Revision. Overall, I believe the preferred alternative, Alternative 2, is the most balanced option and I commend the USFS for its selection. However, I have serious concerns about two aspects of the preferred alternative.
I am concerned about the proposed change from an open-unless-closed to a closed-unless-open policy for mountain bicycling within the White Mountain National Forest. Many local trail networks utilize abandoned hiking trails and skid paths that are not part of the USFS trail system. The proposed change would ban bicycles while still allowing hikers and equestrians to use these existing travelways. Besides unfairly targeting bicycles, this makes no sense from an environmental standpoint. Studies have shown the impacts of mountain biking to be about the same as hiking, and less than equestrian use. Additionally, this policy would be confusing and hard to enforce. Please retain the current open-unless-closed policy for mountain biking in the Forest.
Also, while I support permanent protection of natural areas, designated Wilderness areas do not allow use of human-powered mechanical transportation such as bicycles. I urge you to designate these areas as "Management Area 6.2 Semi-Primitive Non-Motorized Recreation" or incorporate the "Primitive Backcountry" classification used in the Chattahoochie National Forest of Georgia. At a minimum, please adjust boundaries to exclude trails suitable for mountain biking from the proposed Wilderness areas. These trails include the Highwater, Wild River, eastern Black Angel, and Basin Trails in the proposed Wild River Wilderness area.
Thank you for this opportunity to comment on the Forest Plan Revision.
Obviously, any and all user groups can do significant damage to a trail if proper care is not taken during any time of the year, not just winter. But to answer your question, yes our protocols would certainly mirror those of other responsible user groups, and they focus primarily on preserving the environment, which means exercising responsible trail development and use.
Medicine Wheel was created by trail enthusiasts to give something back to not only the trail community, but to the trails themselves. Our mission has always been to provide a quality experience for all users. To do this we have always stressed proper trail design, and construction, with ongoing maintenance as needed. By mixing those elements with appropriate trail use we seek to promote healthy trail systems in and around the Pikes Peak Region.
I hope that helps and hopefully we will see you on a trail soon,
Thanks again to everyone who helped out today in RRC. Wow, what a day! We had thirteen people show up and not only did the weather cooperate, but we got a ton of stuff cleaned up. Even more so, I am humbly impressed by your inspiration and insight as we begin to see the beginning of our plan finally make it to the paper stage. I have transferred your input to a larger map and will be presenting our concepts to the City on Tuesday.
As we move forward begin thinking of "on site" priorities.
1) Clean up continues...
2) Family area "structure" suggestions and plans
3) Managed entrances
4) Natural areas to ride (prior to building structures)
5) Serious design work
6) Can you say half pipe?
Next meeting:
1) I will bring everyone up to date regarding all of our ongoing followup meetings.
2) Schedule the next cleanup date
3) Create separate independent groups to address individual elements (i.e., adopting specific areas, design, materials, fund raising, etc.)
Thursday Dec. 16th, 6:00 PM, at Barnett's
Barnett Bicycle Institute 2755 Ore Mill Rd Colorado Springs, CO 80904 - 3163 (719) 632-5173
Stay tuned for directions...
Cheers,
josh
*sorry if you are receiving duplicate emails, let me know and I'll try to clean up my act.
If you are planning on attending the clean up day tomorrow morning at Red Rock Canyon Park, please bring whatever tools you think might be helpful. Some ideas would include gloves, boots, a wheelbarrow, a dolly, a shovel, or whatever else you think might be helpful in cleaning up debris.
The cleanup will be meeting at the main parking lot, to the south of the intersection of Ridge Road and Highway 24, west of 31st street. (see today's Gazette article about the intersection)
On this coming Saturday morning, Medicine Wheel is sponsoring a cleanup in Red Rock Canyon Park, as part of our sponsoring of the new dedicated freeride area in the park.
This will be a great opportunity to come check out the park, look at where the freeride area is going to be, and to help get that new project off the ground. The freeride are is going to be an exciting addition to our riding in town, with the opportunity to build and ride North Shore style stunts, technical challenges, a skills park for beginners, and even the possibility of large drops (how about 20 feet?). So come check it out!
The cleanup will start at the main parking lot at 9:00 am, Saturday, December 4th. Get to the park by driving west on highway 24, past 31st street, then making the next left off of the highway at Ridge Road. You will see the lot in front of you to the left.
We need to show the city our dedication and support of the opportunity that they have given us in this new park, so please try to show up.
Thanks again for all your support of Medicine Wheel.
Greetings!
First of all, welcome aboard to our new members. This list just keeps
getting larger and larger. Just one or two at a time. But the growth
is there. Pretty soon, we're gonna be a movement!
Anyway, the trail work scheduled for today (Saturday the 13th) was
snowed out. I didn't send out a notice to the list mostly due to the
forecast. At least this time they got it right.
So we'll try again for next weekend, that will be Saturday the 20th.
9:00 am. Meet at the cul-de-sac end of Templeton Gap Rd, just as
before.
We don't have a lot to do to finish this project. Although there is
a lot to do (pick any trail). This will most likely be the last shot
at trying to do trail work this season, unless we get a stretch of
really good weather. But the holidays are coming and I'm sure you'll
all be busy with those.
So let's hope for decent enough weather next week to have a good
ending to this years trail work.
And thanks again to those folks who came out to Red Rock Canyon last
week to tour the freeride area. That process is off to a great start.
They have a lot of planning and work to do to get that off the ground.
Sorry, I just couldn't help that.
And for those non-freeriders among us, remember that there will be
ample opportunity for planning and building some new trails in the
park next year. So don't think we're gonna let those guys have all
the fun.
Phil Yearsley
Trail Work Coordinator
Thanks to all of you, the Wheel is off and rolling again.
Next meeting for RRC is Wed. the 17th, 6:00 PM at Bristol. Please be prepared to break into groups and pick up where we left off. Group 1) will be vision and design, Group 2) will be marketing and fund raising.
We are also looking for another place to meet where we can spread out a little more. Don't misunderstand I love bringing people to the brewery but we already have gotten a little too large (I think it was 18 people last time) for the existing space.
I have a limited number of copies of the "IMBA Trail Solutions", A Guide to Building Sweet Singletrack, which is 272 pages long and is a great resource. The cost is $27.00 for each copy. I will have these available at the RRC Freeride meeting at 6:00 PM on Wed. the 10th of November at Bristol Brewing, which is located at 1647 S. Tejon.
For those of you wanting a copy and not attending this week's meeting please feel free to contact me at medwheeljo@... or call.
Please make ckecks payable to the Medicine Wheel.
Cheers,
josh
Josh Osterhoudt IMBA Eastern CO, State Rep. 1080 Timber Valley Road Colorado Springs, CO 80919 719.522.9083 (h) 719.499.9754 (c)
Thanks to everyone for showing up today at RRC. Wow what an opportunity! The city was very pleased and encouraged by the turnout and the prevailing energies. They have stated their confidence that Medicine Wheel will be able to deliver not only the energy but the expertise required to pull this project off.
As I believe everyone is aware, that was the easy part, now the work begins. We have decided that we will meet at Bristol Brewing at 6:00 PM on Wednesday, November 10th to determine specific goals and to assign responsibilities.
Please remember the importance of being organized and focused. Land managers rely on groups like Medicine Wheel to help them provide quality experiences for the overall population.
I measure Medicine Wheel's success by helping Parks and Recreation succeed. If we help them win, we all win. See you all on Wed.
After the Palmer Park work day stop by the Biketoberfest celebration and fund raiser for Medicine Wheel sponsored by and located at the Criterium Bike Shop on Corporate Drive.
Greetings,
Just a reminder that there is another trail work day
scheduled for this Saturday in Palmer Park.
Who: You
What: Trail Work
When: Saturday, Oct. 30 9:00 am
Where: Palmer Point Trail
Meet: Templeton Gap Rd cul-de-sac at Austin Bluffs Parkway
This is on the Palmer Point Trail in the very northwest corner of the
park. Just in case you want to ride there.
Phil Yearsley
Medicine Wheel
Trail Work Coordinator
Greetings,
Just thought I'd let you know that I have created a couple of photo
albums on our yahoo groups website. One for the Palmer Point Trail
work that we started last Saturday. And the other for Grandview
Overlook Trail work that we did last year.
To view them, log into the yahoo groups site, then click on photos,
or use this url, which will bring up the yahoo login, then take you
directly to the photos:
http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/medicine_whee
l_PPR/lst?.dir=/Palmer+Park+-+Palmer+Point+Trail&.
src=gr&.order=&.view=t&.done=http%3a//briefcase.yahoo.com/
I will be adding photos here as work gets done, and our file space
limitations allow. Older photo albums will be deleted as I add new
ones to take their place.
Check 'em out, and see if you can find yourself in there anywhere.
If you can't find you, then maybe you should come out and do trail
work more often. :^)
Enjoy. Happy Trails,
Phil Yearsley
Trail Work Coordinator
Just a reminder that Velo Swap is happening again this Saturday at the Western National Complex in Denver.
This is the granddaddy of all bike swaps, with over 100,000 square feet of vendor space. If it's related to bikes and you need it, it's probably there.
Proceeds go to benefit IMBA, among others.
See you there!
Jim Schwerin Medicine Wheel of the Pikes Peak Region Phone & Fax - 719-633-0025 jim@...
Greetings,
Many thanks to those eleven people who came out last Saturday for some
trail work in Palmer Park. It was hard work, we got a lot
accomplished. But the job is not yet finished. Is trail work ever
finished?
Who: You
What: Trail Work
When: Saturday, Oct. 30 9:00 am
Where: Palmer Point Trail
Meet: Templeton Gap Rd cul-de-sac at Austin Bluffs Parkway
We will be finishing up work started last Saturday. This is on the
Palmer Point Trail in the very northwest corner of the park. We did
some major drainage work, along with some very nice rock work (I told
you rockhounds to be there).
To get to the meeting place, on Union, south of Austin Bluffs, and
north of Fillmore, turn east on Templeton Gap Road (the only way to
turn) and proceed to the cul-de-sac at the end. We hope to see you
there. If we have bad weather, then we'll try again on the following
Saturday, Nov. 6.
Happy Trails,
Phil Yearsley
Trail work coordinator
Although we have not confirmed an exact time and place to meet, mark Saturday Nov. 6th on your calendar for a tour of the proposed freeride area. We're shooting for early afternoon, around 1:00 ish.
josh
Josh Osterhoudt Medicine Wheel, President 1080 Timber Valley Road Colorado Springs, CO 80919
Greetings!
First of all, WELCOME to all the new members of the list.
We're up to 268 members now. Wow! Who'd a thought?
Announcing yet another trail work opportunity this year,
and perhaps not the last.
WHO: You if you want to join us
WHAT: Trail Work
WHEN: Saturday, October 16 (this Saturday) 9:00 AM
WHERE:Palmer Park
We will be meeting at the cul-de-sac at the end of Templeton Gap Road
where it dead ends into Austin Bluffs. To get there, proceed north
on Union from Circle/Fillmore, or south on Union from Austin Bluffs,
to Templeton Gap Road. Turn east, (just one way to go here) go past
the country club to the end of the road.
There is some major rock work to do here, so you rockhounds come on
out and get your fix. This could take up to three work days,
depending on the turn out. The trail has had some major erosion,
and there is a lot to do to take care of it.
So let's come on out for the first work day in Palmer Park for this
year. And perhaps not the last. Hope to see you there.
Happy Trails,
Phil Yearsley
Medicine Wheel
Trail Work Coordinator
Great meeting today (10-8-04) with good energy and focused direction. We currently have design, marketing, and fundraising volunteers addressing issues. Next steps include a tour of the proposed area within the park which I intend to have set up within the next four weeks. Tentative dates include the afternoon of Oct. 29th, Sat Nov. 6th or Sunday the 7th.
There has also been some talk of field trips, hopefully before the snow flies, to existing freeride areas.
I know we're all chompin at the bit to get this thing rollin so lets rock. This meeting is intended to collect success stories and technical information regarding existing freeride parks. The process will also bring us to the next step which is to identify internal representatives to work in concert with the ciity.
Don't worry if you can't make this meeting there will be more.