Good thing it's still green....

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, mannya_csll <aponte5412@...> wrote:


From: mannya_csll <aponte5412@...>
Subject: [llumpires] New Rulebook Cover?
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:09 AM


Did LL HQ finally retire the Rich Ealy cover?  How many of them have there been?

http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/images/stories09/RulebookCovers2010_152px.gif

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Most of the leagues arounfd here opted for plan b - longer rest, no "and a
game".

Probably just reflective of how most leagues operated.

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "PARKALEO" <parkaleo@...> wrote:
>
> I wonder why the and a game was removed. It did seem that managers did not
like that since so many were removing pitchers at the 40 pitch count even if it
was in the middle of the count.
>
> I thought for competitive balance it was a good thing. However the powers that
be have changed it.
>
> I appreciate that the pitching rules are the same for regular season and for
tournament.
>
> clay
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "jlmckissack" <jlmckissack@> wrote:
> >
> > I see they removed the "and a game" option from the number of required rest
days for 14 and under.
> >
> > Jerry
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "PARKALEO" <parkaleo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > November 13, 2009
> > >
> > > Dear District Administrator,
> > >
> > > This message is to let you know of additional changes to the Official
Regulations and Playing Rules in the baseball divisions of Little League.
> > >
> > > These changes, enacted today by the Little League International Board of
Directors, will bring the Regular Season and Tournament Pitching Rules into
alignment. As we have heard over the years, this has been a desire of many
involved in Little League.
> > >
> > > Public notice of these changes will be made next week. However, we wanted
you to know about the changes before they are released to the media.
> > >
> > > The text of these changes can be found at the following addresses, in PDF
format:
> > >
> > >
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/PitchingRegulationChanges_BB\
_11-13-09.pdf
> > >
> > >
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/TournPitchingRuleChanges_BB_\
11-13-09.pdf
> > >
> > >
> > > Sincerely,
> > >
> > > Little League International
> > > P.O. Box 3485
> > > 539 US Route 15 Hwy
> > > Williamsport, PA  17701-0485
> > > Phone: 570-326-1921
> > > Fax: 570-322-2376
> > >
> >
>

I wonder why the and a game was removed. It did seem that managers did not like
that since so many were removing pitchers at the 40 pitch count even if it was
in the middle of the count.

I thought for competitive balance it was a good thing. However the powers that
be have changed it.

I appreciate that the pitching rules are the same for regular season and for
tournament.

clay

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "jlmckissack" <jlmckissack@...> wrote:
>
> I see they removed the "and a game" option from the number of required rest
days for 14 and under.
>
> Jerry
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "PARKALEO" <parkaleo@> wrote:
> >
> > November 13, 2009
> >
> > Dear District Administrator,
> >
> > This message is to let you know of additional changes to the Official
Regulations and Playing Rules in the baseball divisions of Little League.
> >
> > These changes, enacted today by the Little League International Board of
Directors, will bring the Regular Season and Tournament Pitching Rules into
alignment. As we have heard over the years, this has been a desire of many
involved in Little League.
> >
> > Public notice of these changes will be made next week. However, we wanted
you to know about the changes before they are released to the media.
> >
> > The text of these changes can be found at the following addresses, in PDF
format:
> >
> >
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/PitchingRegulationChanges_BB\
_11-13-09.pdf
> >
> >
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/TournPitchingRuleChanges_BB_\
11-13-09.pdf
> >
> >
> > Sincerely,
> >
> > Little League International
> > P.O. Box 3485
> > 539 US Route 15 Hwy
> > Williamsport, PA  17701-0485
> > Phone: 570-326-1921
> > Fax: 570-322-2376
> >
>

I see they removed the "and a game" option from the number of required rest days
for 14 and under.

Jerry

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "PARKALEO" <parkaleo@...> wrote:
>
> November 13, 2009
>
> Dear District Administrator,
>
> This message is to let you know of additional changes to the Official
Regulations and Playing Rules in the baseball divisions of Little League.
>
> These changes, enacted today by the Little League International Board of
Directors, will bring the Regular Season and Tournament Pitching Rules into
alignment. As we have heard over the years, this has been a desire of many
involved in Little League.
>
> Public notice of these changes will be made next week. However, we wanted you
to know about the changes before they are released to the media.
>
> The text of these changes can be found at the following addresses, in PDF
format:
>
>
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/PitchingRegulationChanges_BB\
_11-13-09.pdf
>
>
http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/TournPitchingRuleChanges_BB_\
11-13-09.pdf
>
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Little League International
> P.O. Box 3485
> 539 US Route 15 Hwy
> Williamsport, PA  17701-0485
> Phone: 570-326-1921
> Fax: 570-322-2376
>

Did LL HQ finally retire the Rich Ealy cover?  How many of them have there been?

http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/images/stories09/RulebookCovers2010_152px.gif

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

Joe, I had a similar situation last spring during HS. In mine (I was FU) there
was no base runners and the ball slipped from F1's hand during his motion and
came to a complete stop before reaching the dirt around HP. F2 started go and
retrieve the ball but PU stopped him making F1 get it. We had to get together to
decide what the pitch was 

Calvin Kidwell

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

November 13, 2009

Dear District Administrator,

This message is to let you know of additional changes to the Official
Regulations and Playing Rules in the baseball divisions of Little League.

These changes, enacted today by the Little League International Board of
Directors, will bring the Regular Season and Tournament Pitching Rules into
alignment. As we have heard over the years, this has been a desire of many
involved in Little League.

Public notice of these changes will be made next week. However, we wanted you to
know about the changes before they are released to the media.

The text of these changes can be found at the following addresses, in PDF
format:

http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/PitchingRegulationChanges_BB\
_11-13-09.pdf

http://www.littleleague.org/Assets/forms_pubs/media/TournPitchingRuleChanges_BB_\
11-13-09.pdf


Sincerely,

Little League International
P.O. Box 3485
539 US Route 15 Hwy
Williamsport, PA  17701-0485
Phone: 570-326-1921
Fax: 570-322-2376

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "kdine@..." <carriagehome@...> wrote:
>
> 2. Make a requirement, if need be, that each team WILL provide 2 umpires for 2
games a season - up to the coach and manager to find those 2 volunteers.  One of
our local leagues has done this for years with much success, and as a result of
the requirement, some of the parents continue to come back and volunteer for
more games because they actually LIKED umpiring.

And what happens when you have a team say they won't comply with this
requirement?

Years ago, we used to run a mid-season bat-a-thon as our major fundraiser.  Kids
were asked to go out and solicit sponsorships (re: donations) for their
performance during the bat-a-thon.  For example, a neighbor may agree to give a
dime for every point the kid scores during the bat-a-thon, and if the kid earns
200 points, the neighbor would donate $20 to the league.

The expectation was for every player of every team to go out and beg for
support.  My son's coach-pitch manager flat-out disagreed with the whole
concept, and told the league his team would not be participating in the
fund-raiser.  Needless to say, it was the last year he managed or coached in the
league.

Then we had another brain-child by our board to drum up volunteers to work the
concession stand.  It was decided that the concession stand manager and game
scheduler would get together and come up with a consession stand duty schedule
where every team in the league would be required to provide two to three
volunteers to work in the stand.  Teams would get tasked two nights and a couple
of Saturday shifts for the entire season, and never when their kids were
playing.  Sounds easy, right?

Wrong.  There were plenty of times where a team would not have folks show up for
its scheduled times.  As disincentive for not showing, the board would not open
the stand and put a sign on the closed window that would say something like,
"CONCESSION STAND CLOSED! MAJORS GIANTS DID NOT PROVIDE WORKERS!"  That might've
happened a couple of times before the board realized that the team really didn't
care that they were called out like that, and that it was losing too much
revenue by staying closed.  So that idea went away, just like our bat-a-thon.

More power to you if you can get a league to live up to its "requirement" to
provide umpires for games.  If we were to implement a program like that, most
teams might find one or two, and undoubtedly they would be teenagers under 18.

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

Unfortunately, I agree with Rich.  I have 17 umpires and 9 of them are "YOUNG
adults".  I have already briefed my league and intend on having some sort of
hand out for the parents during registration.  This will indicate the new rule
change handed down by LL and that if they don't want to step up and become an
umpire (yes, we provide training for our district) then most of the minor league
games which were usually covered by junior umpires, will not be officiated by a
trained umpire.  The way I see it, the ball would then be in their court.



----- Original Message ----
From: Rich Fronheiser <rich@...>
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, November 13, 2009 10:51:49 AM
Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.

(And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?  How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)

Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that there
is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is such
a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of the
law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?

Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.  Or.
gasp. paying umpires.

I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:

> Manny,
>
> I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new responsibility
(as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we convince Dan Kirby
of this?
>
> Kyle
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> >
> > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment
call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents can't even
decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> >
> > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking him/her
in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new rule. It
does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has regarding the
ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment decisions.
> >
> > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.
They already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they
became board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of
classes on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in
the stands should be no problem.
> >
> > Manny Aponte
> > VA D9 UIC
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission for
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Our Little league umpires has full support of the board and the weight of our
local rules to back them up.

6.         If a manager, coach or player is ejected from a game, the ejected
party and the umpire involved will submit a written report of the circumstances
to the Board of Directors within 24 hours of the ejection.  At a minimum, the
manager, coach, or player ejected will be suspended for one complete game (Rule
4.07).  If a manager or coach is ejected from a game, in addition to a one game
suspension, the offending manager or coach must umpire one game, in a division
other than their own, before they can return to the dugout as manager or coach.

Managers of the 11-12, 10-11, and 9-10 year-old tournament teams will be
selected by a vote of the eligible rostered managers and coaches.  Eligible
managers and coaches in the Majors division will vote for the manager of the
11-12 year-old tournament team.  Eligible managers and coaches in both AAA and
Majors divisions will vote for the managers of the 10-11 and 9-10 year-old
tournament teams.  In order to be eligible to vote for or be considered for the
position of tournament manager or coach, the team’s umpiring commitment must
have been fulfilled during the regular season.  In the event of a tie, a run-off
will be held and a re-vote will occur.

The number of games required per team to be umpired adjust yearly based on the
number of teams within the league, but normally Major and AAA -10 games, AA & A
- 8 Games. In the past 4 years we have had a 2 umpire crew for 95% of the games
scheduled. We use the Arbiter and the commitments must be in place by the end of
the first month of the season, failure to do so can and has resulted (twice) in
suspension of the Manager.



-----Original Message-----
From: kdine@... <carriagehome@...>
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, Nov 13, 2009 8:57 am
Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit






I'm in full agreement with Rich. I come from one of those leagues where the kids
are poorly trained, and the Board members do NOT show up on weekends or take any
involvement in the games at all. This is likely one of the reasons LLB wrote the
rule, knowing there has to be leagues like ours out there. As a coach last year,
I was followed to my car by an overzealous coach, so I have no doubt that a kid
could be put in the same position by the same kind of jerk.
Al and Al (the 2 guys from Canada that go around the country holding LLB coach
clinics) recommend that ALL coaches be told that one of the requirements for
coaching will be that they have to umpire 3 games a season. This accomplishes
many things: teaches them a bit more respect for the umpire position, teaches
them more about the game, etc. That is one way to begin having adult presence.
Kids are easy to recruit. An effort has to be made to get adults interested and
volunteering. But it CAN be done, or gasp, pay them to do so. A court of law
will never allow a defense that ALL youth umpires have the knowledge and
maturity to handle adult decisions. Can some youth do so? Absolutely. But not
all, especially in leagues where they are poorly trained.
As for recruiting adults:
1. go to the retirees in your community - some would LOVE to umpire some youth
games, but just need a little invitation. Amercian Legion, over 55 communities,
community senior centers, etc.
2. Make a requirement, if need be, that each team WILL provide 2 umpires for 2
games a season - up to the coach and manager to find those 2 volunteers. One of
our local leagues has done this for years with much success, and as a result of
the requirement, some of the parents continue to come back and volunteer for
more games because they actually LIKED umpiring.
3. Go to the local junior colleges and post notices and try to recriut from
their sports-related majors, and the baseball team, most of whom do not have
time for a job, but do have time to umpire a game or two.
4. Many colleges require students to earn a certain number of volunteer hours
before graduating - go to the guidance office and ask that an email be sent out,
or notices posted, looking for volunteers.
Local leagues need to start doing so now, or they will have a rude awakening
come April. Kelly Dine


--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, Rich Fronheiser <rich@...> wrote:
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule. Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all time,
but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a bicycle
and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not providing proper
protection for one of those minors. The insurance company decided this was not
worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit. How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire? How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right? So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is
such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of
the law) to umpire games? Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games. Or.
gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree. I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
>
> > Manny,
> >
> > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we
convince Dan Kirby of this?
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@> wrote:
> > >
> > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment
call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents can't even
decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > >
> > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new
rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has
regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment
decisions.
> > >
> > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.
They already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they
became board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of
classes on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in
the stands should be no problem.
> > >
> > > Manny Aponte
> > > VA D9 UIC
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I don't disagree, not at all.

I have seen many coaches who were simply warm bodies out there, too.  On
balance, the coaches are a positive thing.  Didn't mean to say otherwise.

I don't think LL realized (or maybe they did and I'm just naive) how many
leagues rely on teenagers to work games like minors and league majors games.  I
think many leagues will wonder how they will cover games this season.

Personally, I haven't worked a league game (I work interleague and tournaments)
in a few years, but I may have to work some league games (by have to I mean I
will do it rather than see games go uncovered) this year.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:08 AM, Randy McMurchy wrote:

> Rich Fronheiser wrote:
> > I agree with your last statement. If it were up to me, a kid would "captain"
the team and there'd be no managers or coaches at all.
>
> Where I played ball and subsequently where my sons played ball,
> there are other programs that offer what you describe. It just
> has always been that the LL program was to develop the kid's
> skills. I don't think peers can teach the game at the level
> that would be expected for that LL program.
>
> --
> Randy
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

It's how we did our league when I was a kid.  No coaches/managers.  There were
two adults who supervised at the field and umpired the games.  The captain of
the team made all the decisions -- lineups, substitutions, etc.

On Nov 13, 2009, at 11:02 AM, Franklin Fite, Jr. wrote:

> I'd vote for you for LL Inc. President! :)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Rich Fronheiser
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:01 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> I agree with your last statement. If it were up to me, a kid would
> "captain" the team and there'd be no managers or coaches at all.
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Franklin Fite, Jr. wrote:
>
> > How will placing an adult umpire on the field with a Junior ump stop a
> moron
> > from following that Junior later to his bike? Does the new rule require
> the
> > Junior umpire to be escorted home by the adult umpire?
> >
> > But, that isn't your main point, I know. So, let's talk about "trained"
> > umpires in Little League. Little League does not require training for
> > umpires. It is perfectly OK under the rules in Little League for a
> > completely inexperienced dad from the stands to work a game, with no
> > training whatsoever, as long as that dad has filled out the volunteer
> > application and had a background check. So, let's put aside the issue of
> > Juniors for a moment. That dad from the stands out there alone is just as
> > vulnerable to be put on the stand and asked "how are you qualified" after
> an
> > incident as a dad from the stands paired with a Junior is. It makes no
> sense
> > to say you have to have a Regional Umpire School trained umpire out there
> > with a Junior but it is OK to have a non-trained dad out there by himself.
> > (And if the issue is physically protecting the Junior, I'd rather have a
> > local Seahawk or Marine than 99.9% of the trained umpires I know as the
> > Junior's bodyguard.)
> >
> > If Little League's real issue is that we need to have trained adult
> umpires
> > making safety decisions (like when to call a game due to darkness), then
> > Little League needs to put that in the rules. They'd have to define what
> > "trained" means, probably by setting up a certification program or using
> > programs in place for high schools or other organizations. And they'd have
> > to say NO GAME can be played without an officially trained umpire. Whether
> a
> > Junior happens to be on the field or not is irrelevant to that argument.
> We
> > either let untrained adults make decisions or not: right now, Little
> League
> > is perfectly OK with them making decisions.
> >
> > (And just for the record, even though I know you weren't referring to me,
> I
> > have no problem paying umpires. I just happen to think that having
> teenagers
> > umpire fits perfectly in with Little League's mission to promote character
> > in kids. I say, let the kids play and ump. The fewer adults the better.)
> >
> > - Frank
> > WA D9
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of Rich Fronheiser
> > Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:52 AM
> > To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >
> > I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100%
> in
> > favor of the new rule. Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
> > time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to
> a
> > bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
> > providing proper protection for one of those minors. The insurance company
> > decided this was not worth the risk.
> >
> > (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a
> > bright move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit. How
> > much training did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?
> > How did he get chosen to be an umpire and why?)
> >
> > Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right? So why is it that
> > there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet
> > there is such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in
> > the eyes of the law) to umpire games? Not everybody can be a manager or
> > coach -- why can't those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
> >
> > Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in
> my
> > experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.
> > Or. gasp. paying umpires.
> >
> > I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how
> > to skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay
> > for games should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree. I have yet to
> > see one post addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult
> umpires
> > for this coming season.
> >
> > On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
> >
> > > Manny,
> > >
> > > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
> > responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can
> we
> > convince Dan Kirby of this?
> > >
> > > Kyle
> > >
> > > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible
> board
> > member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the
> > judgment call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents
> > can't even decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > > >
> > > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
> > him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of
> the
> > new rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ
> apparently
> > has regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound
> > judgment decisions.
> > > >
> > > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
> > qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board
> > members. They already have some sense of responsibility to the league
> > (that's why they became board members in the first place), so getting them
> > to attend a couple of classes on game safety and field decorum so they can
> > serve as "game monitors" in the stands should be no problem.
> > > >
> > > > Manny Aponte
> > > > VA D9 UIC
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> League
> > Baseball, Inc.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
> for
> > off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little League
> Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission for
> off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rich Fronheiser wrote:
> I agree with your last statement.  If it were up to me, a kid would "captain"
the team and there'd be no managers or coaches at all.

Where I played ball and subsequently where my sons played ball,
there are other programs that offer what you describe. It just
has always been that the LL program was to develop the kid's
skills. I don't think peers can teach the game at the level
that would be expected for that LL program.

--
Randy

I'd vote for you for LL Inc. President! :)

-----Original Message-----
From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rich Fronheiser
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 9:01 AM
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit

I agree with your last statement.  If it were up to me, a kid would
"captain" the team and there'd be no managers or coaches at all.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Franklin Fite, Jr. wrote:

> How will placing an adult umpire on the field with a Junior ump stop a
moron
> from following that Junior later to his bike? Does the new rule require
the
> Junior umpire to be escorted home by the adult umpire?
>
> But, that isn't your main point, I know. So, let's talk about "trained"
> umpires in Little League. Little League does not require training for
> umpires. It is perfectly OK under the rules in Little League for a
> completely inexperienced dad from the stands to work a game, with no
> training whatsoever, as long as that dad has filled out the volunteer
> application and had a background check. So, let's put aside the issue of
> Juniors for a moment. That dad from the stands out there alone is just as
> vulnerable to be put on the stand and asked "how are you qualified" after
an
> incident as a dad from the stands paired with a Junior is. It makes no
sense
> to say you have to have a Regional Umpire School trained umpire out there
> with a Junior but it is OK to have a non-trained dad out there by himself.
> (And if the issue is physically protecting the Junior, I'd rather have a
> local Seahawk or Marine than 99.9% of the trained umpires I know as the
> Junior's bodyguard.)
>
> If Little League's real issue is that we need to have trained adult
umpires
> making safety decisions (like when to call a game due to darkness), then
> Little League needs to put that in the rules. They'd have to define what
> "trained" means, probably by setting up a certification program or using
> programs in place for high schools or other organizations. And they'd have
> to say NO GAME can be played without an officially trained umpire. Whether
a
> Junior happens to be on the field or not is irrelevant to that argument.
We
> either let untrained adults make decisions or not: right now, Little
League
> is perfectly OK with them making decisions.
>
> (And just for the record, even though I know you weren't referring to me,
I
> have no problem paying umpires. I just happen to think that having
teenagers
> umpire fits perfectly in with Little League's mission to promote character
> in kids. I say, let the kids play and ump. The fewer adults the better.)
>
> - Frank
> WA D9
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
> Of Rich Fronheiser
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:52 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100%
in
> favor of the new rule. Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
> time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to
a
> bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
> providing proper protection for one of those minors. The insurance company
> decided this was not worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a
> bright move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit. How
> much training did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?
> How did he get chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right? So why is it that
> there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet
> there is such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in
> the eyes of the law) to umpire games? Not everybody can be a manager or
> coach -- why can't those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in
my
> experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.
> Or. gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how
> to skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay
> for games should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree. I have yet to
> see one post addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult
umpires
> for this coming season.
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
>
> > Manny,
> >
> > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
> responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can
we
> convince Dan Kirby of this?
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible
board
> member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the
> judgment call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents
> can't even decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > >
> > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
> him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of
the
> new rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ
apparently
> has regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound
> judgment decisions.
> > >
> > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
> qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board
> members. They already have some sense of responsibility to the league
> (that's why they became board members in the first place), so getting them
> to attend a couple of classes on game safety and field decorum so they can
> serve as "game monitors" in the stands should be no problem.
> > >
> > > Manny Aponte
> > > VA D9 UIC
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
League
> Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
for
> off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission for
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I'm in full agreement with Rich.  I come from one of those leagues where the
kids are poorly trained, and the Board members do NOT show up on weekends or
take any involvement in the games at all.  This is likely one of the reasons LLB
wrote the rule, knowing there has to be leagues like ours out there.  As a coach
last year, I was followed to my car by an overzealous coach, so I have no doubt
that a kid could be put in the same position by the same kind of jerk.
Al and Al (the 2 guys from Canada that go around the country holding LLB coach
clinics) recommend that ALL coaches be told that one of the requirements for
coaching will be that they have to umpire 3 games a season.  This accomplishes
many things: teaches them a bit more respect for the umpire position, teaches
them more about the game, etc.  That is one way to begin having adult presence.
Kids are easy to recruit.  An effort has to be made to get adults interested and
volunteering. But it CAN be done, or gasp, pay them to do so.  A court of law
will never allow a defense that ALL youth umpires have the knowledge and
maturity to handle adult decisions.  Can some youth do so? Absolutely.  But not
all, especially in leagues where they are poorly trained.
As for recruiting adults:
1. go to the retirees in your community - some would LOVE to umpire some youth
games, but just need a little invitation.  Amercian Legion, over 55 communities,
community senior centers, etc.
2. Make a requirement, if need be, that each team WILL provide 2 umpires for 2
games a season - up to the coach and manager to find those 2 volunteers.  One of
our local leagues has done this for years with much success, and as a result of
the requirement, some of the parents continue to come back and volunteer for
more games because they actually LIKED umpiring.
3. Go to the local junior colleges and post notices and try to recriut from
their sports-related majors, and the baseball team, most of whom do not have
time for a job, but do have time to umpire a game or two.
4.  Many colleges require students to earn a certain number of volunteer hours
before graduating - go to the guidance office and ask that an email be sent out,
or notices posted, looking for volunteers.
Local leagues need to start doing so now, or they will have a rude awakening
come April.  Kelly Dine


--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, Rich Fronheiser <rich@...> wrote:
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?  How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is
such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of
the law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.  Or.
gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
>
> > Manny,
> >
> > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we
convince Dan Kirby of this?
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@> wrote:
> > >
> > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment
call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents can't even
decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > >
> > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new
rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has
regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment
decisions.
> > >
> > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.
They already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they
became board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of
classes on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in
the stands should be no problem.
> > >
> > > Manny Aponte
> > > VA D9 UIC
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

I agree with your last statement.  If it were up to me, a kid would "captain"
the team and there'd be no managers or coaches at all.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:57 AM, Franklin Fite, Jr. wrote:

> How will placing an adult umpire on the field with a Junior ump stop a moron
> from following that Junior later to his bike? Does the new rule require the
> Junior umpire to be escorted home by the adult umpire?
>
> But, that isn't your main point, I know. So, let's talk about "trained"
> umpires in Little League. Little League does not require training for
> umpires. It is perfectly OK under the rules in Little League for a
> completely inexperienced dad from the stands to work a game, with no
> training whatsoever, as long as that dad has filled out the volunteer
> application and had a background check. So, let's put aside the issue of
> Juniors for a moment. That dad from the stands out there alone is just as
> vulnerable to be put on the stand and asked "how are you qualified" after an
> incident as a dad from the stands paired with a Junior is. It makes no sense
> to say you have to have a Regional Umpire School trained umpire out there
> with a Junior but it is OK to have a non-trained dad out there by himself.
> (And if the issue is physically protecting the Junior, I'd rather have a
> local Seahawk or Marine than 99.9% of the trained umpires I know as the
> Junior's bodyguard.)
>
> If Little League's real issue is that we need to have trained adult umpires
> making safety decisions (like when to call a game due to darkness), then
> Little League needs to put that in the rules. They'd have to define what
> "trained" means, probably by setting up a certification program or using
> programs in place for high schools or other organizations. And they'd have
> to say NO GAME can be played without an officially trained umpire. Whether a
> Junior happens to be on the field or not is irrelevant to that argument. We
> either let untrained adults make decisions or not: right now, Little League
> is perfectly OK with them making decisions.
>
> (And just for the record, even though I know you weren't referring to me, I
> have no problem paying umpires. I just happen to think that having teenagers
> umpire fits perfectly in with Little League's mission to promote character
> in kids. I say, let the kids play and ump. The fewer adults the better.)
>
> - Frank
> WA D9
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of Rich Fronheiser
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:52 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
> favor of the new rule. Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
> time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
> bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
> providing proper protection for one of those minors. The insurance company
> decided this was not worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a
> bright move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit. How
> much training did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?
> How did he get chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right? So why is it that
> there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet
> there is such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in
> the eyes of the law) to umpire games? Not everybody can be a manager or
> coach -- why can't those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
> experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.
> Or. gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how
> to skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay
> for games should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree. I have yet to
> see one post addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires
> for this coming season.
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
>
> > Manny,
> >
> > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
> responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we
> convince Dan Kirby of this?
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
> member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the
> judgment call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents
> can't even decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > >
> > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
> him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the
> new rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently
> has regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound
> judgment decisions.
> > >
> > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
> qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board
> members. They already have some sense of responsibility to the league
> (that's why they became board members in the first place), so getting them
> to attend a couple of classes on game safety and field decorum so they can
> serve as "game monitors" in the stands should be no problem.
> > >
> > > Manny Aponte
> > > VA D9 UIC
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little League
> Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission for
> off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

How will placing an adult umpire on the field with a Junior ump stop a moron
from following that Junior later to his bike? Does the new rule require the
Junior umpire to be escorted home by the adult umpire?

But, that isn't your main point, I know. So, let's talk about "trained"
umpires in Little League. Little League does not require training for
umpires. It is perfectly OK under the rules in Little League for a
completely inexperienced dad from the stands to work a game, with no
training whatsoever, as long as that dad has filled out the volunteer
application and had a background check. So, let's put aside the issue of
Juniors for a moment. That dad from the stands out there alone is just as
vulnerable to be put on the stand and asked "how are you qualified" after an
incident as a dad from the stands paired with a Junior is. It makes no sense
to say you have to have a Regional Umpire School trained umpire out there
with a Junior but it is OK to have a non-trained dad out there by himself.
(And if the issue is physically protecting the Junior, I'd rather have a
local Seahawk or Marine than 99.9% of the trained umpires I know as the
Junior's bodyguard.)

If Little League's real issue is that we need to have trained adult umpires
making safety decisions (like when to call a game due to darkness), then
Little League needs to put that in the rules. They'd have to define what
"trained" means, probably by setting up a certification program or using
programs in place for high schools or other organizations. And they'd have
to say NO GAME can be played without an officially trained umpire. Whether a
Junior happens to be on the field or not is irrelevant to that argument. We
either let untrained adults make decisions or not: right now, Little League
is perfectly OK with them making decisions.

(And just for the record, even though I know you weren't referring to me, I
have no problem paying umpires. I just happen to think that having teenagers
umpire fits perfectly in with Little League's mission to promote character
in kids. I say, let the kids play and ump. The fewer adults the better.)

- Frank
WA D9

-----Original Message-----
From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Rich Fronheiser
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2009 7:52 AM
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.

(And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a
bright move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How
much training did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?
How did he get chosen to be an umpire and why?)

Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet
there is such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in
the eyes of the law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or
coach -- why can't those people take some time and learn how to umpire?

Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.
Or. gasp. paying umpires.

I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how
to skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay
for games should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to
see one post addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires
for this coming season.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:

> Manny,
>
> I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we
convince Dan Kirby of this?
>
> Kyle
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> >
> > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the
judgment call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents
can't even decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> >
> > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the
new rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently
has regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound
judgment decisions.
> >
> > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board
members. They already have some sense of responsibility to the league
(that's why they became board members in the first place), so getting them
to attend a couple of classes on game safety and field decorum so they can
serve as "game monitors" in the stands should be no problem.
> >
> > Manny Aponte
> > VA D9 UIC
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



------------------------------------

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Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission for
off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links

So how will you recruit the required one adult umpire that will work every game
at every level next season?

Or are you going to quit?

Right now, those are your two options.

I really don't see LL backing down on this when this has been driven by
insurance and liability concerns.

--Rich


On Nov 13, 2009, at 10:50 AM, telleson wrote:

> Rich,
>
> First, I don't mind if ANYONE gets paid to umpire any game. I'm not one of
those guys that stand on soapbox, raise my right hand, and swear I've never
taken one thin dime to umpire a LL game. Personally, I don't care who takes
what.
>
> I've made the decision not to heavily recruit new adults, simply because I
want our Junior Umpires to completely take over this task. I want to keep these
kids involved in our league, involved in something positive and teach them a
skill. I'd rather stand on our balcony, and watch my crews, than gear up myself.
This is my team, and they're pretty damn good.
>
> I want the kids to take over the whole program. I'm going to have a 15 year
old Assistant UIC, that will take over the Minor division next season. Now I do
have some adult umpires that work at my park on a regular basis, and lots of
local guys like to drop in from time to time (it's a really cool facility), but
most of the games are officiated by our Junior Umpires. I drop on the field a
few times a year for a Minors game, but that's only presence they'll see in
blue.
>
> So yeah, there's a reason I don't go get more adults involved. I don't really
want them.
>
> As for the liability end of it, we have BoD member on duty to handle those
dicey choices. Injuries, field conditions, etc. That's all something that can be
handled by one more layer of adults, IF the three adults in each dugout fail to
do their jobs.
>
> Kyle
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, Rich Fronheiser <rich@...> wrote:
> >
> > I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule. Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all time,
but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a bicycle
and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not providing proper
protection for one of those minors. The insurance company decided this was not
worth the risk.
> >
> > (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a
bright move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit. How much
training did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire? How did he
get chosen to be an umpire and why?)
> >
> > Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right? So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is
such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of
the law) to umpire games? Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
> >
> > Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games. Or.
gasp. paying umpires.
> >
> > I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how
to skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for
games should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree. I have yet to see one
post addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this
coming season.
> >
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

From my own personal perspective, most dads who volunteer to be managers and
coaches do so to directly chart the path of their own kids' success in baseball.
They feel the best way to influence how their kids train, where they play on the
field, and how much time they stay in the line-up is to be the person who makes
those decisions.

They probably also feel that they have the right qualifications to be a manager
or coach, based upon their own personal "career" in baseball.  They think they
can assess talent, run practices, teach skills, etc., with little training.

But how many adults show up at registration time with the mind set that they can
be a successful umpire?  Not many, as I'm sure you're aware.  And the time it
takes to learn the rules and the mechanics is not something that those who might
be even remotely interested are willing to put into it.  And what reward do they
get in terms of the success of their kids in baseball?  None.

The reason folks aren't stepping up and saying what they plan on doing to
recruit more adult umpires to meet the requirement of the new rule is because
they already realize how downright difficult it is to find those diamonds in the
rough.  This new rule won't make things any easier.  But I'm sure I'm not saying
something that you haven't heard before already.

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, Rich Fronheiser <rich@...> wrote:
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?  How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is
such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of
the law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.  Or.
gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.
>
>
> On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:
>
> > Manny,
> >
> > I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new
responsibility (as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we
convince Dan Kirby of this?
> >
> > Kyle
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@> wrote:
> > >
> > > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment
call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents can't even
decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> > >
> > > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking
him/her in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new
rule. It does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has
regarding the ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment
decisions.
> > >
> > > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.
They already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they
became board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of
classes on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in
the stands should be no problem.
> > >
> > > Manny Aponte
> > > VA D9 UIC
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Rich,

First, I don't mind if ANYONE gets paid to umpire any game. I'm not one of those
guys that stand on soapbox, raise my right hand, and swear I've never taken one
thin dime to umpire a LL game. Personally, I don't care who takes what.

I've made the decision not to heavily recruit new adults, simply because I want
our Junior Umpires to completely take over this task. I want to keep these kids
involved in our league, involved in something positive and teach them a skill.
I'd rather stand on our balcony, and watch my crews, than gear up myself. This
is my team, and they're pretty damn good.

I want the kids to take over the whole program. I'm going to have a 15 year old
Assistant UIC, that will take over the Minor division next season. Now I do have
some adult umpires that work at my park on a regular basis, and lots of local
guys like to drop in from time to time (it's a really cool facility), but most
of the games are officiated by our Junior Umpires. I drop on the field a few
times a year for a Minors game, but that's only presence they'll see in blue.

So yeah, there's a reason I don't go get more adults involved. I don't really
want them.

As for the liability end of it, we have BoD member on duty to handle those dicey
choices. Injuries, field conditions, etc. That's all something that can be
handled by one more layer of adults, IF the three adults in each dugout fail to
do their jobs.

Kyle

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, Rich Fronheiser <rich@...> wrote:
>
> I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.
>
> (And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?  How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)
>
> Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that
there is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is
such a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of
the law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?
>
> Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.  Or.
gasp. paying umpires.
>
> I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.
>
>

I know this isn't going to be a popular opinion around here, but I'm 100% in
favor of the new rule.  Maybe your umpires are the best trained kids of all
time, but it only takes one incident of some moron following those kids to a
bicycle and confronting them physically for a league to be sued for not
providing proper protection for one of those minors.  The insurance company
decided this was not worth the risk.

(And if you think that putting a dad in RF and calling him the UIC is a bright
move, imagine putting that person on the stand in a lawsuit.  How much training
did that person have -- how is he qualified to be an umpire?  How did he get
chosen to be an umpire and why?)

Umpiring is supposed to be a volunteer activity, right?  So why is it that there
is a surfeit of people willing to be coaches and managers and yet there is such
a shortage of umpires that we have to use minor children (in the eyes of the
law) to umpire games?  Not everybody can be a manager or coach -- why can't
those people take some time and learn how to umpire?

Using mostly junior umpires in a league in place of adult umpires is, in my
experience, a way to avoid having to find adult umpires to work the games.  Or.
gasp. paying umpires.

I'm mostly fascinated reading the posts of people trying to figure out how to
skirt the new rule -- the same people who think umpires who accept pay for games
should be strung up on the nearest, highest tree.  I have yet to see one post
addressing how you are going to recruit necessary adult umpires for this coming
season.


On Nov 13, 2009, at 9:20 AM, telleson wrote:

> Manny,
>
> I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new responsibility
(as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we convince Dan Kirby
of this?
>
> Kyle
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
> >
> > My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board
member in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment
call on when the field is too wet to continue play. Most parents can't even
decide which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
> >
> > The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking him/her
in left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new rule. It
does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has regarding the
ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment decisions.
> >
> > To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a
qualified adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.
They already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they
became board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of
classes on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in
the stands should be no problem.
> >
> > Manny Aponte
> > VA D9 UIC
> >
>
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Manny,

I'm 100% behind requiring an adult BOD member shoulder this new responsibility
(as that's what we do right now in my league). So how can we convince Dan Kirby
of this?

Kyle

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
>
> My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board member
in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment call on
when the field is too wet to continue play.  Most parents can't even decide
which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.
>
> The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking him/her in
left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new rule.  It
does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has regarding the
ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment decisions.
>
> To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a qualified
adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.  They
already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they became
board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of classes
on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in the
stands should be no problem.
>
> Manny Aponte
> VA D9 UIC
>

My point was that it makes more sense to me to keep a responsible board member
in the stands than to stick a parent on the field to make the judgment call on
when the field is too wet to continue play.  Most parents can't even decide
which fast food restaurant to go to after the game.

The solution of yanking a mom or dad off the bleachers and sticking him/her in
left field as "UIC" only serves to comply with the letter of the new rule.  It
does nothing to address the real concern that LL HQ apparently has regarding the
ability (or lack thereof) of youth umpires to make sound judgment decisions.

To me, the way you address that concern is to ensure each game has a qualified
adult, and the easiest way to do that is by using your board members.  They
already have some sense of responsibility to the league (that's why they became
board members in the first place), so getting them to attend a couple of classes
on game safety and field decorum so they can serve as "game monitors" in the
stands should be no problem.

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "Ed Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
>
> Manny,
>
>
>
>  Your post is not logical because as everyone has posted their Jr. umpires
> do not have any problems that adult umpires do not have but then you say Jr.
> umpires plus an adult is worse.  You can agree with LL that Jr. umpires can
> not do the job but arguing that the same Jr crew with an additional adult
> added detracts from the Jr crew make no sense.  You need to pick.
>
>
>
>   _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
> Of mannya_csll
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> Bad idea, IMO.
>
> I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the field
> is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
> playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
> obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
> Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make those
> calls.
>
> A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
> how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
> the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in their
> iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
> wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
> the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
> exists.
>
> Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered to
> make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most board
> members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.
>
> Manny Aponte
> VA D9 UIC
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Ed
> Wiggins" <ewiggins11@> wrote:
> >
> > I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
> > dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work normal
> 2
> > man.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> [mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
> Behalf
> > Of Bob Larson
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
> > To: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> > Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
> umpire.
> >
> > I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
> net>
> > To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
> > Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >
> > > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
> > >
> > > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
> > > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
> > > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
> > >
> > > Reaction!
> > >
> > > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> > "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
> > > wrote:
> > >>
> > >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
> > >>
> > >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > --
> > > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> > > League Baseball, Inc.
> > >
> > > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
> > <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com> com
> > >
> > > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
>
> > > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

Then put a qualified adult on every game.  Oh wait, you don't have them,
that's why you are "sunk."



  Do you see my point?

   _____

From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Bob Larson
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 8:14 PM
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit





Actually adding an adult umpire who doesn't know the game, and may actually
attempt to overrule the youth umpire I think does detract.

I think it depends on the adult added. :)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Wiggins" <ewiggins11@comcast. <mailto:ewiggins11%40comcast.net>
net>
To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit

> Manny,
>
>
>
> Your post is not logical because as everyone has posted their Jr. umpires
> do not have any problems that adult umpires do not have but then you say
> Jr.
> umpires plus an adult is worse. You can agree with LL that Jr. umpires
> can
> not do the job but arguing that the same Jr crew with an additional adult
> added detracts from the Jr crew make no sense. You need to pick.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
> Behalf
> Of mannya_csll
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
> To: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> Bad idea, IMO.
>
> I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the
> field
> is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
> playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
> obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
> Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make those
> calls.
>
> A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
> how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
> the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in
> their
> iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
> wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
> the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
> exists.
>
> Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered
> to
> make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most
> board
> members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.
>
> Manny Aponte
> VA D9 UIC
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> "Ed
> Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
>>
>> I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
>> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work
>> normal
> 2
>> man.
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> [mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
> On
> Behalf
>> Of Bob Larson
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
>> To: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
>> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
> umpire.
>>
>> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
> net>
>> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
>> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>>
>> > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
>> >
>> > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
>> > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
>> > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
>> >
>> > Reaction!
>> >
>> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
>> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
>> >>
>> >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > --
>> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
>> > League Baseball, Inc.
>> >
>> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
>> <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com> com
>> >
>> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask
>> > permission
>
>> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> League Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
<mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
> for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I guess that's one of the things that makes this a bad policy - it is tough
to find enough adults who won't detract from the well-trained youth umpires
we have readily available.

On Thu, Nov 12, 2009 at 8:13 PM, Bob Larson <robert.b.larson@...>wrote:

>
>
> Actually adding an adult umpire who doesn't know the game, and may actually
>
> attempt to overrule the youth umpire I think does detract.
>
> I think it depends on the adult added. :)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ed Wiggins" <ewiggins11@... <ewiggins11%40comcast.net>>
> To: <llumpires@yahoogroups.com <llumpires%40yahoogroups.com>>
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:57 PM
> Subject: RE: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> > Manny,
> >
> >
> >
> > Your post is not logical because as everyone has posted their Jr. umpires
> > do not have any problems that adult umpires do not have but then you say
> > Jr.
> > umpires plus an adult is worse. You can agree with LL that Jr. umpires
> > can
> > not do the job but arguing that the same Jr crew with an additional adult
> > added detracts from the Jr crew make no sense. You need to pick.
> >
> >
> >
> > _____
> >
> > From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com <llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
> llumpires@yahoogroups.com <llumpires%40yahoogroups.com>] On
> > Behalf
> > Of mannya_csll
> > Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
> > To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com <llumpires%40yahoogroups.com>
> > Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Bad idea, IMO.
> >
> > I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the
> > field
> > is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
> > playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
> > obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
> > Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make
> those
> > calls.
> >
> > A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
> > how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
> > the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in
> > their
> > iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
> > wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
> > the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
> > exists.
> >
> > Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered
>
> > to
> > make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most
> > board
> > members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.
> >
> > Manny Aponte
> > VA D9 UIC
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com,
> > "Ed
> > Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull
> a
> >> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work
> >> normal
> > 2
> >> man.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> _____
> >>
> >> From: llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com
> > [mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com]
> > On
> > Behalf
> >> Of Bob Larson
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
> >> To: llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com
> >> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
> > umpire.
> >>
> >> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal.
<mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net<telleson%2540sbcglobal.net>
> >
> > net>
> >> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
> >> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
> >>
> >> > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
> >> >
> >> > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
> >> > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief
> in
> >> > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
> >> >
> >> > Reaction!
> >> >
> >> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou
<mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires%2540yahoogroups.com>>
> ps.com,
> >> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
> >> >>
> >> >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ------------------------------------
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> >> > League Baseball, Inc.
> >> >
> >> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
> >>
<mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com<llumpires-unsubscribe%2540yahoog\
roups.com>>
> be@yahoogroups.
> > <mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com <be%2540yahoogroups.com>> com
> >> >
> >> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask
> >> > permission
> >
> >> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
>
> >
> > --
> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> > League Baseball, Inc.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to:
llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually adding an adult umpire who doesn't know the game, and may actually
attempt to overrule the youth umpire I think does detract.

I think it depends on the adult added.  :)


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...>
To: <llumpires@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 10:57 PM
Subject: RE: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit


> Manny,
>
>
>
> Your post is not logical because as everyone has posted their Jr. umpires
> do not have any problems that adult umpires do not have but then you say
> Jr.
> umpires plus an adult is worse.  You can agree with LL that Jr. umpires
> can
> not do the job but arguing that the same Jr crew with an additional adult
> added detracts from the Jr crew make no sense.  You need to pick.
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> Of mannya_csll
> Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> Bad idea, IMO.
>
> I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the
> field
> is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
> playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
> obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
> Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make those
> calls.
>
> A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
> how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
> the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in
> their
> iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
> wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
> the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
> exists.
>
> Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered
> to
> make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most
> board
> members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.
>
> Manny Aponte
> VA D9 UIC
>
> --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> "Ed
> Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
>>
>> I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
>> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work
>> normal
> 2
>> man.
>>
>>
>>
>> _____
>>
>> From: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> [mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com]
> On
> Behalf
>> Of Bob Larson
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
>> To: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
>> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
> umpire.
>>
>> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
> net>
>> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
>> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>>
>> > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
>> >
>> > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
>> > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
>> > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
>> >
>> > Reaction!
>> >
>> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
>> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
>> >>
>> >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > ------------------------------------
>> >
>> > --
>> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
>> > League Baseball, Inc.
>> >
>> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
>> <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.
> <mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com> com
>> >
>> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask
>> > permission
>
>> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> League Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
> for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

Manny,



  Your post is not logical because as everyone has posted their Jr. umpires
do not have any problems that adult umpires do not have but then you say Jr.
umpires plus an adult is worse.  You can agree with LL that Jr. umpires can
not do the job but arguing that the same Jr crew with an additional adult
added detracts from the Jr crew make no sense.  You need to pick.



   _____

From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mannya_csll
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit





Bad idea, IMO.

I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the field
is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make those
calls.

A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in their
iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
exists.

Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered to
make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most board
members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

--- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com, "Ed
Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
>
> I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work normal
2
> man.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
[mailto:llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
umpire.
>
> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
net>
> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
> >
> > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
> > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
> > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
> >
> > Reaction!
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
> >>
> >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> > League Baseball, Inc.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
> <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.
<mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com> com
> >
> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission

> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Actually my DUIC said the same thing.

But of course, can we pull a Mom or Dad out of the stands?  What about a
volunteer app?


----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...>
To: <llumpires@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 6:55 PM
Subject: RE: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit


>I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work normal
> 2
> man.
>
>
>
>  _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On
> Behalf
> Of Bob Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
> umpire.
>
> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
> net>
> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>> Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
>>
>> Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
>> "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
>> every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
>>
>> Reaction!
>>
>> --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@...>
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
>>>
>>> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
>> League Baseball, Inc.
>>
>> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
> <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.com
>>
>> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
>> for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> --
> The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> League Baseball, Inc.
>
> To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission
> for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

We don't have umpires in our 8-9 minors, or below. So who handles all those
responsibilities in those games?

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com, "mannya_csll" <aponte5412@...> wrote:
>
> Bad idea, IMO.
>
> I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the field
is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like playing
conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc.  It's obvious, at least
to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a Minors game by
themselves may not have the required judgment to make those calls.
>

I'm all for obeying the rules LL hands down, even though I disagree with LL
in this case of requiring adults to ump with Juniors. My league won't be
disregarding the new Junior umpire rules. But, I am not prepared to try to
discern the hidden intent, if any, behind their rules. If LL wants to
require that only adults who have been through the Evans school or a
Regional week long class or some other formal training can umpire with
Juniors, LL needs to put that in the rules. Until then, I will stick to the
current rule: an umpire in LL is whoever the League President (or his
delegate) appoints as an umpire.



- Frank

WA D9



From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com [mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of mannya_csll
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2009 1:08 PM
To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit





Bad idea, IMO.

I still feel that the purpose of putting an adult UIC out there on the field
is to have someone that has a good grasp of how to handle issues like
playing conditions, player injuries, disciplinary problems, etc. It's
obvious, at least to me, that LL HQ feels that two 12yo umpires working a
Minors game by themselves may not have the required judgment to make those
calls.

A mom or dad out of the stands quite possibly has even less experience on
how to handle those situations. I've seen parents in the stands who spend
the entire game talking with each other, or with their faces buried in their
iPhones or BlackBerries. When they do happen to see the scoreboard, they
wonder which team has the most points. Putting them on the field to check
the block under this new rule doesn't fix the problem that LL HQ believes
exists.

Again, I much prefer requiring board members at all games to be empowered to
make those problematic decisions required of a game UIC. At least most board
members I've met knows that players wear caps, not hats.

Manny Aponte
VA D9 UIC

--- In llumpires@yahoogroups.com <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> , "Ed
Wiggins" <ewiggins11@...> wrote:
>
> I know I joked about this earlier but there is no reason you can't pull a
> dad or mom out of the stands and make them L/RFU and UIC, then work normal
2
> man.
>
>
>
> _____
>
> From: llumpires@yahoogroups.com <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:llumpires@yahoogroups.com <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ] On
Behalf
> Of Bob Larson
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 4:14 AM
> To: llumpires@yahoogroups.com <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: Re: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
>
>
>
>
> I don't know why but I thought that 16/17 yo wouldn't need an adult
umpire.
>
> I'm sunk. Especially in minors.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "telleson" <telleson@sbcglobal. <mailto:telleson%40sbcglobal.net>
net>
> To: <llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, November 11, 2009 12:59 AM
> Subject: [llumpires] Re: umpire age limit
>
> > Hey, Rip Van Winkle, where have you been?
> >
> > Yup, that's the latest nonsense from WP. WP is calling Junior Umpires
> > "children", and they need the protection of an adult umpire in chief in
> > every game. No more young men under 18 working by themselves.
> >
> > Reaction!
> >
> > --- In llumpires@yahoogrou <mailto:llumpires%40yahoogroups.com> ps.com,
> "Bob Larson" <robert.b.larson@>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> "A person who is not an adult (no age limit)"
> >>
> >> Does this mean that I need an 18 yo or older on every game?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > --
> > The Little League Umpires Mailing List is not affiliated with Little
> > League Baseball, Inc.
> >
> > To UNSUBSCRIBE send mail to: llumpires-unsubscri
> <mailto:llumpires-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com> be@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:be%40yahoogroups.com>
> >
> > Please respect the content of other people's messages and ask permission

> > for off-list use.Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]