Thanks Hung.  I appreciate the information.

George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> I personally have not used the first generartion
> flat LEI but via direct
> talk with others who have tried it, the differences
> mainly in relaunch
> problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar
> pressure.
>
> I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs
> would not have the same
> problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs
> (third generation?)
> would solve all of the first generation
> weaknesses...
>
> The flatness of the kite directly influences its
> behaviour.  The flatter
> the LEI, the more it flies like foil.  The less flat
> the kite the more
> it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more
> familiar to most kiters.
>
> Hung.
>
> George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Hung,
> >How much difference is there between the "first
> >generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
> >Are the second generation kites less flat such as
> the
> >Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
> >bar pressure or something else?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > Ishtar,
> > >
> > > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
> > >
>
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
> > >
> > > .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> > > designs:
> > >     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to
> relaunch,
> > > stable, low
> > > performance, non-depowerable
> > >     - Kiteski Kites: High performance,
> cumbersome to
> > > relaunch but
> > > reliable, non-depowerable
> > >     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> > > depowerable, easy to relaunch
> > >     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar
> pressure,
> > > depowerable
> > >     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> > > depowerable, light bar pressure
> > >     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light
> bar
> > > pressure
> > >     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> > > depowerable, light bar
> > > pressure, very easy to relaunch
> > >
> > > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.
> Second
> > > generation: Waroo,
> > > Sonic, etc.
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
> > >
> > > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> > > could you point me to a history
> > > >of different kite design and performance. Could
> you
> > > also give a few examples of
> > > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> > > >
> > > >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> > > make it like the Seasmik that we
> > > >had few years ago?
> > > >
> > > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the
> future
> > > kites should be
> > > >(both for water and snow).
> > > >
> > > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the
> "chicken
> > > loop is the safety
> > > >leash" concept a few years back and now the
> flat
> > > LEIs seems to deliver
> > > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> > > >
> > > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> > > some respects but the
> > > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> > > >
> > > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> > > flat) but most of them
> > > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate
> this
> > > completely by being
> > > >less flat or a firmer LE.
> > > >
> > > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> > > wind), I attached the
> > > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the
> kite
> > > to launch it at the
> > > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> > > snowboard and casually
> > > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> > > attached it to my
> > > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard
> binding
> > > on and slowly
> > > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> > > amazing!
> > > >
> > > >Hung.
> > > >
> > > >George Sarris wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Hung,
> > > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> > > adding a
> > > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points
> not
> > > on the
> > > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a
> foil?
> > > I've
> > > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but
> I've
> > > not
> > > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus
> bow
> > > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try
> a
> > > foil
> > > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> > > versus
> > > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > > > >Thanks,
> > > > >George
> > > > >
> > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > George,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert
> problems
> > > due to
> > > > > > their flatness. The
> > > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to
> invert.
> > > I
> > > > > > think that all future
> > > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to
> remove
> > > this
> > > > > > problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to
> get
> > > the
> > > > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > > > as described in
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hung.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow
> kite) I
> > > have
> > > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > > > Supposedly
> > > > > > >after that happens, there is little
> control
> > > in
> > > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow
> kite
> > > by
> > > > > > late
> > > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
>
=== message truncated ===


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G'day Hung and George

There is no such thing as first and second gen that is not an accurate way
to describe the 2 types of kites that are being sold at the moment.

The Cabrinha Crossbow and Switchblade, Slingshot TD, Airush Halo, Liquid
Force Assault, Takoon Nova, etc are all "bow" kite based on a design by
Bruno Legainoux. Bruno invented the popular C shaped kites we have all been
using too.

Then there is another group of kites that are based on that design, but with
enough differences so as not to infringe on the patent Bruno holds or so it
would seem.

First and second gen is marketing babble, sorry Hung.

Bruno has responded to many enquiries on www.kiteforum.com do a search. You
will find that there are specific differences, and trade offs for the
different shaped kites.

The so called second generation kites have straight trailing edges, are not
as wide span, do not depower as well, have less refined bars and control
systems, and simply just don't fly as nicely as the original designs from
Bruno.

Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
overcome.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack
www.kitepower.com.au


   _____

From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
Sent: Wednesday, 8 March 2006 2:28 PM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


I personally have not used the first generartion flat LEI but via direct
talk with others who have tried it, the differences mainly in relaunch
problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar pressure.

I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs would not have the same
problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs (third generation?)
would solve all of the first generation weaknesses...

The flatness of the kite directly influences its behaviour.  The flatter
the LEI, the more it flies like foil.  The less flat the kite the more
it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more familiar to most kiters.

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>How much difference is there between the "first
>generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
>Are the second generation kites less flat such as the
>Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
>bar pressure or something else?
>
>Thanks,
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > Ishtar,
> >
> > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
> >
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20
use
> >
> > .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> > designs:
> >     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch,
> > stable, low
> > performance, non-depowerable
> >     - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to
> > relaunch but
> > reliable, non-depowerable
> >     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> > depowerable, easy to relaunch
> >     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure,
> > depowerable
> >     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> > depowerable, light bar pressure
> >     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar
> > pressure
> >     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> > depowerable, light bar
> > pressure, very easy to relaunch
> >
> > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.  Second
> > generation: Waroo,
> > Sonic, etc.
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
> >
> > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> > could you point me to a history
> > >of different kite design and performance. Could you
> > also give a few examples of
> > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> > >
> > >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> > make it like the Seasmik that we
> > >had few years ago?
> > >
> > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future
> > kites should be
> > >(both for water and snow).
> > >
> > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken
> > loop is the safety
> > >leash" concept a few years back and now the flat
> > LEIs seems to deliver
> > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> > >
> > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> > some respects but the
> > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> > >
> > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> > flat) but most of them
> > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this
> > completely by being
> > >less flat or a firmer LE.
> > >
> > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> > wind), I attached the
> > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite
> > to launch it at the
> > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> > snowboard and casually
> > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> > attached it to my
> > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding
> > on and slowly
> > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> > amazing!
> > >
> > >Hung.
> > >
> > >George Sarris wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hung,
> > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> > adding a
> > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points not
> > on the
> > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?
> > I've
> > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've
> > not
> > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a
> > foil
> > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> > versus
> > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >George
> > > >
> > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > George,
> > > > >
> > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems
> > due to
> > > > > their flatness. The
> > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.
> > I
> > > > > think that all future
> > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove
> > this
> > > > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get
> > the
> > > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > > as described in
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > > >
> > > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hung.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I
> > have
> > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > > Supposedly
> > > > > >after that happens, there is little control
> > in
> > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite
> > by
> > > > > late
> > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
> > would
> > > > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a
> > Cabrinha
> > > > > Xbow
> > > > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would
> > consider
> > > > > >purchasing one if the price was around
> > $1200-$1300.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >George
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last
> > couple
> > > > > weeks
> > > > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that
> > all
> > > > > flat
> > > > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > > > similar).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So far, there are almost no negative
> > things
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether
> > you need
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand,
> > the
> > > > > kite
> > > > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > > > around at
> > > > > > > all for that.
> > > > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and
> > hover at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes
> > up
> > > > > slowly
> > > > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > > > feels
> > > > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver
> > is
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is
> > excellent.
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kitepower Sydney wrote:

>Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
>refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
>are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
>even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
>overcome.
>
>
>
Thanks Steve.  Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
Why did he stated MOST and not ALL?  Aren't they pretty straight forward
to fix?

Hung.

I guess thats because most of the problems are not real problems Hung. The
"problems"  have  been blown out of proportion by pimps for other brands
that did not or do not have a bow kite.
So some "problems" are not problems at all, and therefore do not need to be
fixed.

All the flat and bow kites on the market have been out for max 6 months so I
think it is a bit premature to be calling any of them second gen yet.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack
www.kitepower.com.au


   _____

From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
Sent: Thursday, 9 March 2006 10:39 AM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


Kitepower Sydney wrote:

>Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
>refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
>are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
>even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can
be
>overcome.
>
>
>
Thanks Steve.  Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
Why did he stated MOST and not ALL?  Aren't they pretty straight forward
to fix?

Hung.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since modern flat LEIs can depower 100% (or almost there) and very easy
to relaunch, should beginners and schools start using them?

Hung.

I have noticed recently that all Yahoo groups have RSS feeds (RSS stands
for Real Simple Syndication).

RSS is a new tool allowing one to monitor and view all new changes to
web sites and groups on the net.

Just need an RSS reader such as RSSReader at http://www.rssreader.com/
and the RSS feeds that you want to add to the reader.

The RSS feed for the Kitesurf group is at
http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/rss (just add this URL to
your RSSReader)

The RSS feed for the Ksurfschool group is at
http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/ksurfschool/rss

The RSS feed for the Kitesurfing School web site is at
http://kitesurfingschool.org/rss.xml

Now you don't need to receive any group email and simply view all the
new posts in all groups and favorite web sites via a single RSSReader.

I am creating a new RSS section on the kitesurfing school web site to
list all the currently available kitesurfing related RSS feeds.

P.S., If you don't currently use RSS, use it.  While browser is part of
Web 1.0, RSS is a part of web 2.0

Hung.

Hi...i'm an expert windsurfer/wave sailor, very advanced wakeboarder
but new to kiteboarding.  I've flown power snow kites and paragliders
so i'm ok with the kite thing.  I was hoping to use my wakeboard rather
than drop another $300-$600 on a kiteboard, but someone told me it wont
work well.   Is this true?  Why not?  I've checked out some kiteboards
and don't see much discernable difference?  Please advise.

I have a Liquid Force Subjekt wakeboard 137...54" long and 17" wide.
The 4 fins are small, but arc'ed for pretty good hold.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Hui

In a message dated 4/4/2006 3:46:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
huibraddah@... writes:

Hi...i'm  an expert windsurfer/wave sailor, very advanced wakeboarder
but new to  kiteboarding.  I've flown power snow kites and paragliders
so i'm ok  with the kite thing.  I was hoping to use my wakeboard rather
than  drop another $300-$600 on a kiteboard, but someone told me it wont
work  well.   Is this true?  Why not?  I've checked out some  kiteboards
and don't see much discernable difference?  Please  advise.

I have a Liquid Force Subjekt wakeboard 137...54" long and 17"  wide.
The 4 fins are small, but arc'ed for pretty good  hold.

Thanks for any advice you can  offer.

Hui



unless you are WAY powered up  wakeboards have too much rocker and tend to be
narrow at the tips, I have used  wakebaords and even went through the trouble
of cutting to remove some of the  rocker, the design parameters for straight
line pull verses that of a kite  differ in board design, your ability to go
upwind will suffer as well as the  abilty to glide through lulls, most newer
style kiteboards have a straighter  outline and are much flatter, bigger fins
allow you to carve upwind without  edging so hard as too lose drive. anyway, the
money I spent trying to save the  cost of a good board went pretty much
unrewarded.
  where you ride also dictates  what board shape will work best, ie, flat
water in gusty conditions would  require a flater rocker and straighter outline,
in surf or choppy conditions a  rounder outline with a bit of rocker and some
tip kick might work best, my  advice would be to try to use several different
boards ( most kiters will let  you give their board a try) or, if thats not
possible look at a " spleene  session 141" and copy it from plywood, cheap and
it
works in most conditions (  although kinda heavy made of ply). I've owned a
dozen or so boards and my home  made balsawood board is my favorite.
just my two cents, hope it  helps.
Denise

http://hometown.aol.com/denisesewa/index.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got invited to use Google Analytic, so I tried it for
kitesurfingschool.org and found that it has a very nice feature showing
all the visitor world wide on the world map.

So here is it on http://kitesurfingschool.org home page you can find a
kiter population distribution world wide based on 1 week worth of
traffic at kitesurfingschool.org.  I will continue to update this image
in the future when I have more traffic info.

Hung.

Paul Menta has been busy doing some advanced testing on Cabrinha's new bow
kite, the Contra "Crossbow" in secret down in Key West, FL.  Some of the
traditional approaches that work well for C kites for certain procedures
have been less than successful with bow kites.  So Paul has been innovating
new techniques for critical skills like solo launch, landing, self-rescue
and more with the new bow kites.

Paul has documented this in a ton of photos, text and has even created a
blog to field questions in.  Bows are gaining ground out there through new
performance attributes.   Why not  tune in and learn more at:

http://www.thekitehouse.com/

I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind probably in the 20 to
30 knots range.

Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.  Some doing OK on 7m
classic and some even on 5m classic kites.

So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me is around 7m (I am
light but have known to use the same kite size as average kiters).

Hung.

At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!

Hung,
How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
coast of Florida.

George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> probably in the 20 to
> 30 knots range.
>
> Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> Some doing OK on 7m
> classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
>
> So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> is around 7m (I am
> light but have known to use the same kite size as
> average kiters).
>
> Hung.
>


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At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!

Amazing!  I was in Hateras myself and riding the same wind with the 9m
Waroo (actually with the 9m Waroo on Saturday and Monday but with the 5m
Grunt on Sunday - I could probably ride the Waroo 9m on Sunday too but
it made more sense with the 5m Grunt).  Was it up to 40 knots?

Hung.

David Alger wrote:

>At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
>used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
>and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
>were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
>smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
>no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
>and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
>http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
>to the most frequently asked questions.
>
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George,

I would say it is OK.  It may not be the best in quality but workmanship
and durability should be OK.

I have never seen my Waroos inverted.

Self-launch should not be an issue unless it is way overpowered then it
is wise to have someone to help you (similar to classic LEI).

Go for the Waroo 20m.  I am using the Waroo 16m this afternoon in
similar wind and was the only one who can go up wind.  For heavier
kiters the Waroo 20m should be a better bet.

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
>Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
>launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
>20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
>coast of Florida.
>
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> > probably in the 20 to
> > 30 knots range.
> >
> > Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> > Some doing OK on 7m
> > classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
> >
> > So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> > is around 7m (I am
> > light but have known to use the same kite size as
> > average kiters).
> >
> > Hung.
> >
>
>
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I rode my 16m Waroo today in wind where other kiters were using 16m
Waroo and classic LEI 17m.

In the end, there were only two 16m Waroos left flying and I was the
only one who can go upwind.

I would guess the 16m Waroo low end is around 18m to 19m classic LEI.

So for flat kites, just add 15% to 20% to both the high end and low end
wind range of a classic LEI of the same size.

P.S., To use all of the Waroo high end and low end, you need to play
with the connection on the back line pig tail.

Hung.

i'm going to soon be starting kite surfing lessons
here in toronto.  any local surfers that can recommend
a good kite size for typical lake ontario days?

any local group of surfers that get together or do
outings? clubs of any kind?
cheers
matt the noob

__________________________________________________
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Matt,

For average weigh kiter, a good size is 12m to 14m kite to start with
and then you can add a smaller and a larger size later on

Check http://kitesurfingschool.org/schools.htm for the list of schools
in your area.

Hung.

matt marek wrote:

>i'm going to soon be starting kite surfing lessons
>here in toronto.  any local surfers that can recommend
>a good kite size for typical lake ontario days?
>
>any local group of surfers that get together or do
>outings? clubs of any kind?
>cheers
>matt the noob
>
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For flat kite, you normally don't need a safety leash in most conditions
as you can use the chicken loop as the safety leash.

However, in way overpowered situation (at about 10% of the top end range
of the kite), a safety leash is needed as the kite still has quite a bit
of power even when you let you of the bar.

So make sure you have at least a safety  handle on your bar and better
yet, wear a safety leash on your harness and clip it on the safety
handle whenever you has to pull the trim strap more than 1/2 way.

A beginner should always use a safety leash even with flat kite.

Hung.

I wouldn't buy a flat kite George for lite wind days, if the sea breeze is 8-12
you don't need the
extra depower you get with the flat kites and they don't have the low end pull
of the traditional
style kites.  I would reserve flat kites for mid to small kites, the ones you
want to take out
when it is gusty.

Tom

--- ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com wrote:

> There are 6 messages in this issue.
>
> Topics in this digest:
>
>       1. Flat Kite High Wind
>            From: "David Alger" <DAlger@...>
>       2. Re: Flat kite high end
>            From: George Sarris <jakefarley2000@...>
>       3. Flat Kite High Wind
>            From: "David Alger" <DAlger@...>
>       4. Re: Flat Kite High Wind
>            From: hungvu2000@...
>       5. Re: Flat kite high end
>            From: hungvu2000@...
>       6. Flat kite low end
>            From: hungvu2000@...
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 1
>    Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:54:55 -0000
>    From: "David Alger" <DAlger@...>
> Subject: Flat Kite High Wind
>
> At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
> used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
> and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
> were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
> smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
> no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
> and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 2
>    Date: Tue, 2 May 2006 11:41:06 -0700 (PDT)
>    From: George Sarris <jakefarley2000@...>
> Subject: Re: Flat kite high end
>
> Hung,
> How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
> Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
> launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
> 20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
> coast of Florida.
>
> George
>
> --- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> > probably in the 20 to
> > 30 knots range.
> >
> > Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> > Some doing OK on 7m
> > classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
> >
> > So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> > is around 7m (I am
> > light but have known to use the same kite size as
> > average kiters).
> >
> > Hung.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 3
>    Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:54:55 -0000
>    From: "David Alger" <DAlger@...>
> Subject: Flat Kite High Wind
>
> At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
> used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
> and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
> were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
> smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
> no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
> and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 4
>    Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:21:14 -0400
>    From: hungvu2000@...
> Subject: Re: Flat Kite High Wind
>
> Amazing!  I was in Hateras myself and riding the same wind with the 9m
> Waroo (actually with the 9m Waroo on Saturday and Monday but with the 5m
> Grunt on Sunday - I could probably ride the Waroo 9m on Sunday too but
> it made more sense with the 5m Grunt).  Was it up to 40 knots?
>
> Hung.
>
> David Alger wrote:
>
> >At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
> >used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
> >and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
> >were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
> >smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
> >no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
> >and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
> >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
> >to the most frequently asked questions.
> >
> >To unsubscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >To subscribe, please send an email to ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:30:28 -0400
>    From: hungvu2000@...
> Subject: Re: Flat kite high end
>
> George,
>
> I would say it is OK.  It may not be the best in quality but workmanship
> and durability should be OK.
>
> I have never seen my Waroos inverted.
>
> Self-launch should not be an issue unless it is way overpowered then it
> is wise to have someone to help you (similar to classic LEI).
>
> Go for the Waroo 20m.  I am using the Waroo 16m this afternoon in
> similar wind and was the only one who can go up wind.  For heavier
> kiters the Waroo 20m should be a better bet.
>
> Hung.
>
> George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Hung,
> >How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
> >Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
> >launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
> >20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
> >coast of Florida.
> >
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> > > probably in the 20 to
> > > 30 knots range.
> > >
> > > Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> > > Some doing OK on 7m
> > > classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
> > >
> > > So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> > > is around 7m (I am
> > > light but have known to use the same kite size as
> > > average kiters).
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
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> >
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> >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the answers
> >to the most frequently asked questions.
> >
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> ________________________________________________________________________
> ________________________________________________________________________
>
> Message: 6
>    Date: Tue, 02 May 2006 18:57:54 -0400
>    From: hungvu2000@...
> Subject: Flat kite low end
>
> I rode my 16m Waroo today in wind where other kiters were using 16m
> Waroo and classic LEI 17m.
>
> In the end, there were only two 16m Waroos left flying and I was the
> only one who can go upwind.
>
> I would guess the 16m Waroo low end is around 18m to 19m classic LEI.
>
> So for flat kites, just add 15% to 20% to both the high end and low end
> wind range of a classic LEI of the same size.
>
> P.S., To use all of the Waroo high end and low end, you need to play
> with the connection on the back line pig tail.
>
> Hung.
>
>
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>
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> to the most frequently asked questions.
>
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Mozart,

It is a great idea !

People can load it to their MP3 player and listen to it while driving or
on a vacation trip to places where there are no Internet access.

I have Vietnamese accent myself so may not be a very good candidate for
the recording.

Maybe someone on the group would like to volunteer and record the
various pages to MP3?

BTW, Some of you may have noticed that we are in the process of updating
kitesurfingschool.org adding quite some new sections to the site (e.g.
http://www.kitesurfingschool.org/Flat%20LEI.htm )

Hung.

mozart brocchini wrote:

>Hi Hung,
>
>First of all I'd like to say I'm greatly thankful for this marvelous website.
>I'm a software engineer, so I'm very familiar with open source software, but
this was a great
>initiative.
>
>I thing I'd like to suggest is creating an audio version of
www.kitesurfingschool.org. It would be
>great to have some folks volunteer to read the website and record in mp3
format, so we can make it
>portable to listen in our cars, or wherever we are. Look at
http://librivox.org/ to see what I
>mean.
>
>I myself would volunteer, but although I speak english, I have a Brazilian
portuguese accent.
>
>Mozart
>
>__________________________________________________
>Do You Yahoo!?
>Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>

I am teaching Dan (11 years old) today on the 9m Waroo.

It's a great kite for teaching.  Dan handled it quite well and did not
have to go through the submarine pull as most of us had with the classic
kites.

The range of the kite is so great that I just pull on the trim strap
half way to fit Dan's weight and then release it fully when I need to
ride and demo to Dan.

Dan got on the board and going both direction.  Water relaunch is a
piece of cake to him now.

At the end of the day, he even did a good transition and going up wind.

Hung.

I have posted photos of Dan and Eric, Ottawa youngest and oldest
kitesurfers on http://kitesurfingschool.org

They may not be the youngest or oldest kiter in the world but they for
sure can represent these 2 generations.

P.S., Eric has been kiteskiing since the 80's

Hung.

Boat sunk, three teenagers are rocketed out an inlet on a 6 knot tide. A
closed out area lay just ahead pummeled by 12 ft. waves blown up by days of
strong wind.

Things are looking pretty grim, until ...

Click for full sized image
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=92

Click for thumbnail images
http://kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131

I had our first lesson of the season using the Waroo 12m in the week-end
and it was excellent.

The student was twice my weight (255 lbs .vs. 125 lbs) and we shared the
same 12m Waroo no problem.

The water relaunch was so easy and that's really boosted the student's
confident level.  We also went through the relaunching technique using
both the flat kite technique and the the classic kite technique (the
student obviously prefer the flat kite technique as it was simpler).

The "submarine pull" was reduced by more than half.

The body drag upwind was easy.

The student originally wanted to buy a used 16m classic kite from the
school (for budget reason) and after the session, wanted to go for new
flat kite as he liked it so much (even though a new Waroo 16m is twice
as expensive as the school used 16m classic LEI).

Overall, I saw many advantages of teaching/learning using flat kite and
not any disadvantage except for the fact that the student may get
addicted to the flat kite and may not want to use classic kite.

Hung.

It has been a great spring, the winds "may" be shifting gears into summer
patterns at present.  Still, what a great season it has been.  There is a
lot to checkout since the last update in February including ...

- KITE 4 GIRLS 2006 In Photos --> PART I & Video!!!
   Enough said, the images speak volumes.

- DONE - 2700 MILES ACROSS AN OCEAN BY KITE!!!
   Manu Bertin goes were no kiter has ever gone before, all the WAY ACROSS
THE ATLANTIC!

- Billy Da Man!
   Local rider, Bill Park hits the big time and winds second in the PKRA!

- Review of AERIAL ASSAULT from KITEFLIX!!!
   George and Dimitri have put together an highly entertaining DVD.  Check it
out

- Something New ... WATERBOARDS
   A new concept in kiteboards, worth a read, and ride!

- Flat (Hybrid) Kite Safety
   An article from SBC Kiteboard looking at the new flat kites.

- NEW Ft. Pierce Beachfront Kiteshop
   GK of Globerider takes it to the beach with a new shop, next to a hot
beach bar.  With the wind and      waves at this destination, what a
concept!

All this and more at:
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=73

***

KITEBOARDING TRAVEL DISASTERS - Avoiding Them!
This is the time of year a number of us start to travel.  This article is
definitely worth a read.
at http://fksa.org/viewtopic.php?t=1231

***

St. Petersburg/Tampa Bay Forum
The guys in this new forum are going OFF!  Loads of talent and input on
local conditions and riding in general can be found in this active group at:
   http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=107

Bahamian Kiteboarding Forum
It's better in the Bahamas!  True story, in many ways, so why not dial into
to this forum dedicated to the Family Islands?
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=98

Southeast Florida
TESTING, TESTING ... is this working or not???  There are more riders in SE
Florida than much of the rest of the east coast of the USA.  WHERE are you?
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=67

There are forums for the rest of Florida and beyond for questions, ideas or
justing shooting the breeze after sessions.

***

HOW To Start Kiteboarding, Training, Retailers
That says it all, ideas on getting in HERE, http://fksa.org/index.php?c=28

***

WAY TO GO - Kiteboarder Rescues!
Big news here about dramatic kiteboarder rescues, (that is us doing the
rescuing!).  Interesting stories here, check it out.
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=92


and a great deal more.  The wind is good and the riding fine, here anyway.
Come on down.

FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi
http://fksa.org/

I just notices on one of my back lines that the loop
where it connnects to the kite has slipped somewhat.
It appears that the loop is sewn onto the line and
evidently some of the stitching has come loose and the
loop has bunched up some.  The lines themselves are
still in great shape.  I was wondering if the lines
can be tied in a larkshead knot if I took the loop off
or will this decrease the strength of the line.  Or if
the loop can be taken off and re-sewn back on with
nylon thread.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks,
George

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

do not remove the sleeve.
that keeps the line from cutting itself.
phil b


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I am planning to write a section on Kiteboating at the Kitesurfing
School web site http://kiteboardingschool.org/kiteboating.htm so we (2
kiters) tried a standard Laser sailboat with a 12m Waroo in light wind
around 7 knots over the week-end.

After 2 failed attempts of kiteboating with the kite attached to one of
us (we got pull off the boat), we tried attaching the kite to the center
block of the Laser and it worked very nicely.

We could do everything (down wind, upwind, jibe, kiteloop and even stop
the boat by swinging the kite backward) except for relaunching the kite
(the wind was too light perhaps).

We will try it in stronger wind to see how the relaunching will work.

Kiteboating is definitly a great things to do when you want to go kiting
with a friend ...

Hung.