It is great to have all these cold front winds to play with.  Who would have
thought those smaller  kites would come in so handy.  Here are some of the
developments on the FKSA.org website:

- JUPITER KITEBOARDING INVASION - YEAR III
The photos are in and the FIRST (of a few) articles is up.  Waves and wind,
life is good, dial in to see just how good.

- TAMPA KITEBOARD MASTERS
This is the first west coast event in over four years but it is a good one.
Part I, the Boardercross was completed last weekend in strong winds.  Lots
of interesting images came out of it and appear in a couple of articles.

BE SURE to checkout the great action video clips from the Jupiter and Tampa
events at:  http://kiteflix.com/  Nobody does it better than George, well
maybe James Bond, but he uses a juried foil!?


- MIAMI BOARDERCROSS COMPETITION
Is scheduled for TOMORROW!  This may even become a regular event from what
Neil tells me.  Tune in and see what is going on.

- History of Safety in Kiteboarding and tips on Florida Riding
Ryan of ASNEWS.NET interviews yours truly in Podcast # 19 about the history
of safety in kiteboarding, why I bother with this stuff and some comments
about riding around Florida

- AERIAL ASSAULT
The latest and greatest from the video gnomes of Kiteflix.com.  George has
out done himself with the talents of Dimitri going off on the water and in
his sons electric toy jeep on impressive road trips.  Stay tuned and
illustrated review is in the works.  Buy your copy at:  http://kiteflix.com/

- Islamorada Invitational
NOT for the Fifth year, sad to say unless ...

- Winter Riding Conditions in Florida
Thinking about a trip to Florida or to a new launch in the state?  Be sure
to stop by here and check things out.

and a great deal more at:
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=73

AND ...

- Watersboards IS LOOKING for team riders
Nice boards, check 'em out and see what Lloyd has to say
and more at:
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=67

AND ...

Thinking about a trip to the Bahamas?
Talk to AJ and the gang, the guys that live, work and ride there at ...
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=98

AND ...

Tired of reefs, need more vegetables in your diving diet?
Checkout the underwater kelp forests of Catalina Island, California in Off
Topic Extreme ..
http://fksa.org/viewforum.php?f=38



Do you have news about how riding has been, upcoming or past events, great
sessions, guys who are really ripping, access concerns, ideas, questions ...

Tell us here, at http://fksa.org/


FKA, Inc.

transcribed by:
Rick Iossi

http://fksa.org/
http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/viewforum.php?f=131

Following the success of the 2005 Winterlude Kite Demonstration event,
the school Kitesurfingschool.org Ottawa (VL Kites) and the NCC again
teamed up to organize a kite demonstration event for Winterlude 2006 on
Feb 11 and 12.  Again, this is the world first large scale winter kite
demonstration event for a very large number of non-kiter audiences,
fully insured with $2,000,000 public liability insurance.  Due to the
large number of surrounding audiences, only instructors or riders with
more than 3-year experiences were invited to ride in the event.

The main objectives of the event are to:

    1.      Show the northern climate way of life
    2.      Promote kiting to a very large group of non-kiters (650,000+)
    3.      Make kiting a legitimate and official sport.

The event was fully supported by the kite manufacturers and the kite
magazines.

Full report and lots of photos at
http://kitesurfingschool.org/Winterlude2006/Winterlude.htm

Hung.

Hi all I'm looking to buy a new kite. I'm looking at the new bow style
kites but are they really worth the extra money? I can get a new 2005
naish V4 16m half the price of one of the new bow kites. I want to use
my kites for flat water as well as wave riding.

I have the following:

2003 naish Aero2 12m
2003 155mm naish twin tip
2005 140mm Cyclone twin tip

Thanks

Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple weeks on snow, my response
is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all flat LEIs are somewhat
similar).

So far, there are almost no negative things about the flat LEI kite I used.

The positive things are:
     - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever DEpower.  I've never had to
use the safety leash and wonder whether you need it.  There was a time I
crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the kite lost control and shot
across the wind window.  I was not dragged around at all for that.
     - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.  You just let go off the
bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at the window edge waiting
for relaunch.  When you relaunch, it goes up slowly and not dragging you
around like foil.
     - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m feels like a 8m/10m combo
(or even a 7m/11m combo).  Two kite quiver is now possible.  For me
probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.

Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.  The condition have
never been ideal so I did not have a chance to "take it to the limit";
however, I would think its "take it to the limit" jumping and hang time
performance would be better if not the same as the traditional LEIs.

I will know more about it on water in spring.

Hung.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
read forums regarding the kite inverting.  Supposedly
after that happens, there is little control in
depowering.  I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by late
spring if the prices come down to what I would
consider reasonable.  The prices for a Cabrinha Xbow
16m are around $1700 complete.  I would consider
purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.

George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple weeks
> on snow, my response
> is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all flat
> LEIs are somewhat
> similar).
>
> So far, there are almost no negative things about
> the flat LEI kite I used.
>
> The positive things are:
>     - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> DEpower.  I've never had to
> use the safety leash and wonder whether you need it.
>  There was a time I
> crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the kite
> lost control and shot
> across the wind window.  I was not dragged around at
> all for that.
>     - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.  You
> just let go off the
> bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at the
> window edge waiting
> for relaunch.  When you relaunch, it goes up slowly
> and not dragging you
> around like foil.
>     - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m feels
> like a 8m/10m combo
> (or even a 7m/11m combo).  Two kite quiver is now
> possible.  For me
> probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
>
> Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> The condition have
> never been ideal so I did not have a chance to "take
> it to the limit";
> however, I would think its "take it to the limit"
> jumping and hang time
> performance would be better if not the same as the
> traditional LEIs.
>
> I will know more about it on water in spring.
>
> Hung.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been
> removed]
>
>


__________________________________________________
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George,

Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to their flatness.  The
flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.  I think that all future
flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this problem.

Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the "sled boosting" effect
as described in
http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
(heavy duty reading)

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
>read forums regarding the kite inverting.  Supposedly
>after that happens, there is little control in
>depowering.  I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by late
>spring if the prices come down to what I would
>consider reasonable.  The prices for a Cabrinha Xbow
>16m are around $1700 complete.  I would consider
>purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
>
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple weeks
> > on snow, my response
> > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all flat
> > LEIs are somewhat
> > similar).
> >
> > So far, there are almost no negative things about
> > the flat LEI kite I used.
> >
> > The positive things are:
> >     - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > DEpower.  I've never had to
> > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need it.
> >  There was a time I
> > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the kite
> > lost control and shot
> > across the wind window.  I was not dragged around at
> > all for that.
> >     - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.  You
> > just let go off the
> > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at the
> > window edge waiting
> > for relaunch.  When you relaunch, it goes up slowly
> > and not dragging you
> > around like foil.
> >     - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m feels
> > like a 8m/10m combo
> > (or even a 7m/11m combo).  Two kite quiver is now
> > possible.  For me
> > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> >
> > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > The condition have
> > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to "take
> > it to the limit";
> > however, I would think its "take it to the limit"
> > jumping and hang time
> > performance would be better if not the same as the
> > traditional LEIs.
> >
> > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > removed]
> >
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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Hung,
Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by adding a
few more bridle lines that attach to points not on the
leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?  I've
never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've not
read much about foils.  In rating foils versus bow
kites, which would your recommend?  I may try a foil
if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer versus
Cabrinha Xbow).
Thanks,
George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> George,
>
> Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to
> their flatness.  The
> flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.  I
> think that all future
> flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this
> problem.
>
> Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the
> "sled boosting" effect
> as described in
>
http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
>
> (heavy duty reading)
>
> Hung.
>
> George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
> >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> Supposedly
> >after that happens, there is little control in
> >depowering.  I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by
> late
> >spring if the prices come down to what I would
> >consider reasonable.  The prices for a Cabrinha
> Xbow
> >16m are around $1700 complete.  I would consider
> >purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
> >
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple
> weeks
> > > on snow, my response
> > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all
> flat
> > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > similar).
> > >
> > > So far, there are almost no negative things
> about
> > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > >
> > > The positive things are:
> > >     - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > DEpower.  I've never had to
> > > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need
> it.
> > >  There was a time I
> > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the
> kite
> > > lost control and shot
> > > across the wind window.  I was not dragged
> around at
> > > all for that.
> > >     - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> You
> > > just let go off the
> > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at
> the
> > > window edge waiting
> > > for relaunch.  When you relaunch, it goes up
> slowly
> > > and not dragging you
> > > around like foil.
> > >     - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> feels
> > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > (or even a 7m/11m combo).  Two kite quiver is
> now
> > > possible.  For me
> > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > >
> > > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > > The condition have
> > > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to
> "take
> > > it to the limit";
> > > however, I would think its "take it to the
> limit"
> > > jumping and hang time
> > > performance would be better if not the same as
> the
> > > traditional LEIs.
> > >
> > > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >__________________________________________________
> >Do You Yahoo!?
> >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> >http://mail.yahoo.com
> >
> >
> >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
> >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the
> answers
> >to the most frequently asked questions.
> >
> >To unsubscribe, please send an email to
> ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> >To subscribe, please send an email to
> ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com
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But wouldn't that make it like the Seasmik that we had few years ago?

I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future kites should be
(both for water and snow).

We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken loop is the safety
leash" concept a few years back and now the flat LEIs seems to deliver
it alright without any (or much) compromise.

I was a long supporter of foils and still am in some respects but the
new flat LEIs really impressed me.

Some of them have the invert problem (being too flat) but most of them
(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this completely by being
less flat or a firmer LE.

P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong wind), I attached the
chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite to launch it at the
edge of the wind window.   I went back to my snowboard and  casually
removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and attached it to my
harness.  I then sit down, put the snowboard binding on and slowly
brought the kite up and kited.  This is pretty amazing!

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by adding a
>few more bridle lines that attach to points not on the
>leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?  I've
>never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've not
>read much about foils.  In rating foils versus bow
>kites, which would your recommend?  I may try a foil
>if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer versus
>Cabrinha Xbow).
>Thanks,
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > George,
> >
> > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to
> > their flatness.  The
> > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.  I
> > think that all future
> > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this
> > problem.
> >
> > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the
> > "sled boosting" effect
> > as described in
> >
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> >
> > (heavy duty reading)
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> > George Sarris wrote:
> >
> > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
> > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > Supposedly
> > >after that happens, there is little control in
> > >depowering.  I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by
> > late
> > >spring if the prices come down to what I would
> > >consider reasonable.  The prices for a Cabrinha
> > Xbow
> > >16m are around $1700 complete.  I would consider
> > >purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
> > >
> > >George
> > >
> > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple
> > weeks
> > > > on snow, my response
> > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all
> > flat
> > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > similar).
> > > >
> > > > So far, there are almost no negative things
> > about
> > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > >
> > > > The positive things are:
> > > >     - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > DEpower.  I've never had to
> > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need
> > it.
> > > >  There was a time I
> > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the
> > kite
> > > > lost control and shot
> > > > across the wind window.  I was not dragged
> > around at
> > > > all for that.
> > > >     - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > You
> > > > just let go off the
> > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at
> > the
> > > > window edge waiting
> > > > for relaunch.  When you relaunch, it goes up
> > slowly
> > > > and not dragging you
> > > > around like foil.
> > > >     - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > feels
> > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo).  Two kite quiver is
> > now
> > > > possible.  For me
> > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > >
> > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > > > The condition have
> > > > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to
> > "take
> > > > it to the limit";
> > > > however, I would think its "take it to the
> > limit"
> > > > jumping and hang time
> > > > performance would be better if not the same as
> > the
> > > > traditional LEIs.
> > > >
> > > > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> > > >
> > > > Hung.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > > removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
> > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > >Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> > protection around
> > >http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >If you are new to kitesurfing, please visit
> > >http://www.KitesurfingSchool.org/faqs.htm for the
> > answers
> > >to the most frequently asked questions.
> > >
> > >To unsubscribe, please send an email to
> > ksurfschool-unsubscribe@egroups.com
> > >To subscribe, please send an email to
> > ksurfschool-subscribe@egroups.com
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> > >
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung, could you point me to a history
of different kite design and performance. Could you also give a few examples of
the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar

hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that make it like the Seasmik that we
had few years ago?

I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future kites should be
(both for water and snow).

We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken loop is the safety
leash" concept a few years back and now the flat LEIs seems to deliver
it alright without any (or much) compromise.

I was a long supporter of foils and still am in some respects but the
new flat LEIs really impressed me.

Some of them have the invert problem (being too flat) but most of them
(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this completely by being
less flat or a firmer LE.

P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong wind), I attached the
chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite to launch it at the
edge of the wind window. I went back to my snowboard and casually
removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and attached it to my
harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding on and slowly
brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty amazing!

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by adding a
>few more bridle lines that attach to points not on the
>leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil? I've
>never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've not
>read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
>kites, which would your recommend? I may try a foil
>if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer versus
>Cabrinha Xbow).
>Thanks,
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > George,
> >
> > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to
> > their flatness. The
> > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert. I
> > think that all future
> > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this
> > problem.
> >
> > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the
> > "sled boosting" effect
> > as described in
> >
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> >
> > (heavy duty reading)
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> > George Sarris wrote:
> >
> > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
> > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > Supposedly
> > >after that happens, there is little control in
> > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by
> > late
> > >spring if the prices come down to what I would
> > >consider reasonable. The prices for a Cabrinha
> > Xbow
> > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would consider
> > >purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
> > >
> > >George
> > >
> > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple
> > weeks
> > > > on snow, my response
> > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all
> > flat
> > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > similar).
> > > >
> > > > So far, there are almost no negative things
> > about
> > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > >
> > > > The positive things are:
> > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need
> > it.
> > > > There was a time I
> > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the
> > kite
> > > > lost control and shot
> > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > around at
> > > > all for that.
> > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > You
> > > > just let go off the
> > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at
> > the
> > > > window edge waiting
> > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes up
> > slowly
> > > > and not dragging you
> > > > around like foil.
> > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > feels
> > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver is
> > now
> > > > possible. For me
> > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > >
> > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > > > The condition have
> > > > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to
> > "take
> > > > it to the limit";
> > > > however, I would think its "take it to the
> > limit"
> > > > jumping and hang time
> > > > performance would be better if not the same as
> > the
> > > > traditional LEIs.
> > > >
> > > > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> > > >
> > > > Hung.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > > removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >__________________________________________________
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> > answers
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Ishtar,

The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
.  Also here is a very brief summary of kite designs:
     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch, stable, low
performance, non-depowerable
     - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to relaunch but
reliable, non-depowerable
     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non depowerable, easy to relaunch
     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure, depowerable
     - 4 line inflatable: High performance, depowerable, light bar pressure
     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar pressure
     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100% depowerable, light bar
pressure, very easy to relaunch

Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.  Second generation: Waroo,
Sonic, etc.

Hung.

ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:

>As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung, could you point me to a history
>of different kite design and performance. Could you also give a few examples of
>the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
>
>hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that make it like the Seasmik that
we
>had few years ago?
>
>I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future kites should be
>(both for water and snow).
>
>We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken loop is the safety
>leash" concept a few years back and now the flat LEIs seems to deliver
>it alright without any (or much) compromise.
>
>I was a long supporter of foils and still am in some respects but the
>new flat LEIs really impressed me.
>
>Some of them have the invert problem (being too flat) but most of them
>(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this completely by being
>less flat or a firmer LE.
>
>P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong wind), I attached the
>chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite to launch it at the
>edge of the wind window. I went back to my snowboard and casually
>removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and attached it to my
>harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding on and slowly
>brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty amazing!
>
>Hung.
>
>George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Hung,
> >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by adding a
> >few more bridle lines that attach to points not on the
> >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil? I've
> >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've not
> >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a foil
> >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer versus
> >Cabrinha Xbow).
> >Thanks,
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > George,
> > >
> > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to
> > > their flatness. The
> > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert. I
> > > think that all future
> > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the
> > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > as described in
> > >
> >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > >
> > > (heavy duty reading)
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > > George Sarris wrote:
> > >
> > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
> > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > Supposedly
> > > >after that happens, there is little control in
> > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by
> > > late
> > > >spring if the prices come down to what I would
> > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a Cabrinha
> > > Xbow
> > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would consider
> > > >purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
> > > >
> > > >George
> > > >
> > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple
> > > weeks
> > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all
> > > flat
> > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > similar).
> > > > >
> > > > > So far, there are almost no negative things
> > > about
> > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > >
> > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need
> > > it.
> > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the
> > > kite
> > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > around at
> > > > > all for that.
> > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > You
> > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at
> > > the
> > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes up
> > > slowly
> > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > feels
> > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver is
> > > now
> > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > > > > The condition have
> > > > > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to
> > > "take
> > > > > it to the limit";
> > > > > however, I would think its "take it to the
> > > limit"
> > > > > jumping and hang time
> > > > > performance would be better if not the same as
> > > the
> > > > > traditional LEIs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hung.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > > > removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >__________________________________________________
> > > >Do You Yahoo!?
> > > >Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
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> > > answers
> > > >to the most frequently asked questions.
> > > >
> > > >To unsubscribe, please send an email to
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Thanks Hung!

   I am really looking forward to the Waroo today!

   Cheers Ishtar

   ps Do you have any xtra large kite harness for sale?

hungvu2000@... wrote:
   Ishtar,

The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
. Also here is a very brief summary of kite designs:
- Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch, stable, low
performance, non-depowerable
- Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to relaunch but
reliable, non-depowerable
- Closed cell foil: High performance, non depowerable, easy to relaunch
- Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure, depowerable
- 4 line inflatable: High performance, depowerable, light bar pressure
- Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar pressure
- Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100% depowerable, light bar
pressure, very easy to relaunch

Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow. Second generation: Waroo,
Sonic, etc.

Hung.

ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:

>As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung, could you point me to a history
>of different kite design and performance. Could you also give a few examples of
>the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
>
>hungvu2000@... wrote: But wouldn't that make it like the Seasmik that we
>had few years ago?
>
>I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future kites should be
>(both for water and snow).
>
>We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken loop is the safety
>leash" concept a few years back and now the flat LEIs seems to deliver
>it alright without any (or much) compromise.
>
>I was a long supporter of foils and still am in some respects but the
>new flat LEIs really impressed me.
>
>Some of them have the invert problem (being too flat) but most of them
>(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this completely by being
>less flat or a firmer LE.
>
>P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong wind), I attached the
>chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite to launch it at the
>edge of the wind window. I went back to my snowboard and casually
>removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and attached it to my
>harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding on and slowly
>brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty amazing!
>
>Hung.
>
>George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Hung,
> >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by adding a
> >few more bridle lines that attach to points not on the
> >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil? I've
> >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've not
> >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a foil
> >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer versus
> >Cabrinha Xbow).
> >Thanks,
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > George,
> > >
> > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems due to
> > > their flatness. The
> > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert. I
> > > think that all future
> > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove this
> > > problem.
> > >
> > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get the
> > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > as described in
> > >
> >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > >
> > > (heavy duty reading)
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > > George Sarris wrote:
> > >
> > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I have
> > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > Supposedly
> > > >after that happens, there is little control in
> > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite by
> > > late
> > > >spring if the prices come down to what I would
> > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a Cabrinha
> > > Xbow
> > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would consider
> > > >purchasing one if the price was around $1200-$1300.
> > > >
> > > >George
> > > >
> > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last couple
> > > weeks
> > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that all
> > > flat
> > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > similar).
> > > > >
> > > > > So far, there are almost no negative things
> > > about
> > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > >
> > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether you need
> > > it.
> > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand, the
> > > kite
> > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > around at
> > > > > all for that.
> > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > You
> > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and hover at
> > > the
> > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes up
> > > slowly
> > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > feels
> > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver is
> > > now
> > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > >
> > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is excellent.
> > > > > The condition have
> > > > > never been ideal so I did not have a chance to
> > > "take
> > > > > it to the limit";
> > > > > however, I would think its "take it to the
> > > limit"
> > > > > jumping and hang time
> > > > > performance would be better if not the same as
> > > the
> > > > > traditional LEIs.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will know more about it on water in spring.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hung.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
> > > > > removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
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Yahoo! Groups Links









[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hung,
How much difference is there between the "first
generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
Are the second generation kites less flat such as the
Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
bar pressure or something else?

Thanks,
George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> Ishtar,
>
> The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
>
http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
>
> .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> designs:
>     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch,
> stable, low
> performance, non-depowerable
>     - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to
> relaunch but
> reliable, non-depowerable
>     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> depowerable, easy to relaunch
>     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure,
> depowerable
>     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> depowerable, light bar pressure
>     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar
> pressure
>     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> depowerable, light bar
> pressure, very easy to relaunch
>
> Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.  Second
> generation: Waroo,
> Sonic, etc.
>
> Hung.
>
> ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
>
> >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> could you point me to a history
> >of different kite design and performance. Could you
> also give a few examples of
> >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> >
> >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> make it like the Seasmik that we
> >had few years ago?
> >
> >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future
> kites should be
> >(both for water and snow).
> >
> >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken
> loop is the safety
> >leash" concept a few years back and now the flat
> LEIs seems to deliver
> >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> >
> >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> some respects but the
> >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> >
> >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> flat) but most of them
> >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this
> completely by being
> >less flat or a firmer LE.
> >
> >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> wind), I attached the
> >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite
> to launch it at the
> >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> snowboard and casually
> >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> attached it to my
> >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding
> on and slowly
> >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> amazing!
> >
> >Hung.
> >
> >George Sarris wrote:
> >
> > >Hung,
> > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> adding a
> > >few more bridle lines that attach to points not
> on the
> > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?
> I've
> > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've
> not
> > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a
> foil
> > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> versus
> > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > >Thanks,
> > >George
> > >
> > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > >
> > > > George,
> > > >
> > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems
> due to
> > > > their flatness. The
> > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.
> I
> > > > think that all future
> > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove
> this
> > > > problem.
> > > >
> > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get
> the
> > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > as described in
> > > >
> >
>
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > >
> > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > >
> > > > Hung.
> > > >
> > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I
> have
> > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > Supposedly
> > > > >after that happens, there is little control
> in
> > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite
> by
> > > > late
> > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
> would
> > > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a
> Cabrinha
> > > > Xbow
> > > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would
> consider
> > > > >purchasing one if the price was around
> $1200-$1300.
> > > > >
> > > > >George
> > > > >
> > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last
> couple
> > > > weeks
> > > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that
> all
> > > > flat
> > > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > > similar).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So far, there are almost no negative
> things
> > > > about
> > > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether
> you need
> > > > it.
> > > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand,
> the
> > > > kite
> > > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > > around at
> > > > > > all for that.
> > > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > > You
> > > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and
> hover at
> > > > the
> > > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes
> up
> > > > slowly
> > > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > > feels
> > > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver
> is
> > > > now
> > > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is
> excellent.
>
=== message truncated ===


__________________________________________________
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I personally have not used the first generartion flat LEI but via direct
talk with others who have tried it, the differences mainly in relaunch
problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar pressure.

I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs would not have the same
problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs (third generation?)
would solve all of the first generation weaknesses...

The flatness of the kite directly influences its behaviour.  The flatter
the LEI, the more it flies like foil.  The less flat the kite the more
it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more familiar to most kiters.

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>How much difference is there between the "first
>generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
>Are the second generation kites less flat such as the
>Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
>bar pressure or something else?
>
>Thanks,
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > Ishtar,
> >
> > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
> >
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
> >
> > .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> > designs:
> >     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch,
> > stable, low
> > performance, non-depowerable
> >     - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to
> > relaunch but
> > reliable, non-depowerable
> >     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> > depowerable, easy to relaunch
> >     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure,
> > depowerable
> >     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> > depowerable, light bar pressure
> >     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar
> > pressure
> >     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> > depowerable, light bar
> > pressure, very easy to relaunch
> >
> > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.  Second
> > generation: Waroo,
> > Sonic, etc.
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
> >
> > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> > could you point me to a history
> > >of different kite design and performance. Could you
> > also give a few examples of
> > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> > >
> > >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> > make it like the Seasmik that we
> > >had few years ago?
> > >
> > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future
> > kites should be
> > >(both for water and snow).
> > >
> > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken
> > loop is the safety
> > >leash" concept a few years back and now the flat
> > LEIs seems to deliver
> > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> > >
> > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> > some respects but the
> > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> > >
> > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> > flat) but most of them
> > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this
> > completely by being
> > >less flat or a firmer LE.
> > >
> > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> > wind), I attached the
> > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite
> > to launch it at the
> > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> > snowboard and casually
> > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> > attached it to my
> > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding
> > on and slowly
> > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> > amazing!
> > >
> > >Hung.
> > >
> > >George Sarris wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hung,
> > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> > adding a
> > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points not
> > on the
> > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?
> > I've
> > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've
> > not
> > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a
> > foil
> > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> > versus
> > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >George
> > > >
> > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > George,
> > > > >
> > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems
> > due to
> > > > > their flatness. The
> > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.
> > I
> > > > > think that all future
> > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove
> > this
> > > > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get
> > the
> > > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > > as described in
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > > >
> > > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hung.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I
> > have
> > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > > Supposedly
> > > > > >after that happens, there is little control
> > in
> > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite
> > by
> > > > > late
> > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
> > would
> > > > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a
> > Cabrinha
> > > > > Xbow
> > > > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would
> > consider
> > > > > >purchasing one if the price was around
> > $1200-$1300.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >George
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last
> > couple
> > > > > weeks
> > > > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that
> > all
> > > > > flat
> > > > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > > > similar).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So far, there are almost no negative
> > things
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether
> > you need
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand,
> > the
> > > > > kite
> > > > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > > > around at
> > > > > > > all for that.
> > > > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and
> > hover at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes
> > up
> > > > > slowly
> > > > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > > > feels
> > > > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver
> > is
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is
> > excellent.
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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Thanks Hung.  I appreciate the information.

George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> I personally have not used the first generartion
> flat LEI but via direct
> talk with others who have tried it, the differences
> mainly in relaunch
> problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar
> pressure.
>
> I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs
> would not have the same
> problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs
> (third generation?)
> would solve all of the first generation
> weaknesses...
>
> The flatness of the kite directly influences its
> behaviour.  The flatter
> the LEI, the more it flies like foil.  The less flat
> the kite the more
> it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more
> familiar to most kiters.
>
> Hung.
>
> George Sarris wrote:
>
> >Hung,
> >How much difference is there between the "first
> >generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
> >Are the second generation kites less flat such as
> the
> >Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
> >bar pressure or something else?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >George
> >
> >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> >
> > > Ishtar,
> > >
> > > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
> > >
>
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20use
> > >
> > > .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> > > designs:
> > >     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to
> relaunch,
> > > stable, low
> > > performance, non-depowerable
> > >     - Kiteski Kites: High performance,
> cumbersome to
> > > relaunch but
> > > reliable, non-depowerable
> > >     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> > > depowerable, easy to relaunch
> > >     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar
> pressure,
> > > depowerable
> > >     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> > > depowerable, light bar pressure
> > >     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light
> bar
> > > pressure
> > >     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> > > depowerable, light bar
> > > pressure, very easy to relaunch
> > >
> > > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.
> Second
> > > generation: Waroo,
> > > Sonic, etc.
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
> > >
> > > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> > > could you point me to a history
> > > >of different kite design and performance. Could
> you
> > > also give a few examples of
> > > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> > > >
> > > >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> > > make it like the Seasmik that we
> > > >had few years ago?
> > > >
> > > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the
> future
> > > kites should be
> > > >(both for water and snow).
> > > >
> > > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the
> "chicken
> > > loop is the safety
> > > >leash" concept a few years back and now the
> flat
> > > LEIs seems to deliver
> > > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> > > >
> > > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> > > some respects but the
> > > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> > > >
> > > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> > > flat) but most of them
> > > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate
> this
> > > completely by being
> > > >less flat or a firmer LE.
> > > >
> > > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> > > wind), I attached the
> > > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the
> kite
> > > to launch it at the
> > > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> > > snowboard and casually
> > > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> > > attached it to my
> > > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard
> binding
> > > on and slowly
> > > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> > > amazing!
> > > >
> > > >Hung.
> > > >
> > > >George Sarris wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >Hung,
> > > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> > > adding a
> > > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points
> not
> > > on the
> > > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a
> foil?
> > > I've
> > > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but
> I've
> > > not
> > > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus
> bow
> > > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try
> a
> > > foil
> > > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> > > versus
> > > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > > > >Thanks,
> > > > >George
> > > > >
> > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > George,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert
> problems
> > > due to
> > > > > > their flatness. The
> > > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to
> invert.
> > > I
> > > > > > think that all future
> > > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to
> remove
> > > this
> > > > > > problem.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to
> get
> > > the
> > > > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > > > as described in
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > > > >
> > > > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hung.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow
> kite) I
> > > have
> > > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > > > Supposedly
> > > > > > >after that happens, there is little
> control
> > > in
> > > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow
> kite
> > > by
> > > > > > late
> > > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
>
=== message truncated ===


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G'day Hung and George

There is no such thing as first and second gen that is not an accurate way
to describe the 2 types of kites that are being sold at the moment.

The Cabrinha Crossbow and Switchblade, Slingshot TD, Airush Halo, Liquid
Force Assault, Takoon Nova, etc are all "bow" kite based on a design by
Bruno Legainoux. Bruno invented the popular C shaped kites we have all been
using too.

Then there is another group of kites that are based on that design, but with
enough differences so as not to infringe on the patent Bruno holds or so it
would seem.

First and second gen is marketing babble, sorry Hung.

Bruno has responded to many enquiries on www.kiteforum.com do a search. You
will find that there are specific differences, and trade offs for the
different shaped kites.

The so called second generation kites have straight trailing edges, are not
as wide span, do not depower as well, have less refined bars and control
systems, and simply just don't fly as nicely as the original designs from
Bruno.

Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
overcome.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack
www.kitepower.com.au


   _____

From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
Sent: Wednesday, 8 March 2006 2:28 PM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


I personally have not used the first generartion flat LEI but via direct
talk with others who have tried it, the differences mainly in relaunch
problem, invert problem and somewhat heavier bar pressure.

I would think that most 2nd generation flat LEIs would not have the same
problem as the first and by next year, all flat LEIs (third generation?)
would solve all of the first generation weaknesses...

The flatness of the kite directly influences its behaviour.  The flatter
the LEI, the more it flies like foil.  The less flat the kite the more
it flies like a traditional LEI and therefore more familiar to most kiters.

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>How much difference is there between the "first
>generation" and "second generation" flat LEI kites?
>Are the second generation kites less flat such as the
>Cabrinha Switchblade versus the Crossbow?  Or is it
>bar pressure or something else?
>
>Thanks,
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > Ishtar,
> >
> > The kitesurfing FAQ has some info at
> >
>http://kitesurfingschool.org/faqs.htm#What%20types%20of%20kite%20can%20I%20
use
> >
> > .  Also here is a very brief summary of kite
> > designs:
> >     - Wipika Classic Inflatable: Easy to relaunch,
> > stable, low
> > performance, non-depowerable
> >     - Kiteski Kites: High performance, cumbersome to
> > relaunch but
> > reliable, non-depowerable
> >     - Closed cell foil: High performance, non
> > depowerable, easy to relaunch
> >     - Seasmik: High performance, heavy bar pressure,
> > depowerable
> >     - 4 line inflatable: High performance,
> > depowerable, light bar pressure
> >     - Arc: High performance, depowerable, light bar
> > pressure
> >     - Flat 4 line LEI: High performance, 100%
> > depowerable, light bar
> > pressure, very easy to relaunch
> >
> > Flat LEI: First generation: Nova, Crossbow.  Second
> > generation: Waroo,
> > Sonic, etc.
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> > ISHTAR LUESBY wrote:
> >
> > >As a beginner and just learning the sport Hung,
> > could you point me to a history
> > >of different kite design and performance. Could you
> > also give a few examples of
> > >the new flat LEI kites? Many thanks Ishtar
> > >
> > >hungvu2000@... wrote:  But wouldn't that
> > make it like the Seasmik that we
> > >had few years ago?
> > >
> > >I would rate the new flat LEI as the way the future
> > kites should be
> > >(both for water and snow).
> > >
> > >We talked about 100% depowered LEI and the "chicken
> > loop is the safety
> > >leash" concept a few years back and now the flat
> > LEIs seems to deliver
> > >it alright without any (or much) compromise.
> > >
> > >I was a long supporter of foils and still am in
> > some respects but the
> > >new flat LEIs really impressed me.
> > >
> > >Some of them have the invert problem (being too
> > flat) but most of them
> > >(and all of them eventually) would eliminate this
> > completely by being
> > >less flat or a firmer LE.
> > >
> > >P.S., To launch the kite today (in good strong
> > wind), I attached the
> > >chicken loop to my snowboard then went to the kite
> > to launch it at the
> > >edge of the wind window. I went back to my
> > snowboard and casually
> > >removed the chicken loop from the snowboard and
> > attached it to my
> > >harness. I then sit down, put the snowboard binding
> > on and slowly
> > >brought the kite up and kited. This is pretty
> > amazing!
> > >
> > >Hung.
> > >
> > >George Sarris wrote:
> > >
> > > >Hung,
> > > >Could perhaps the inverting be controlled by
> > adding a
> > > >few more bridle lines that attach to points not
> > on the
> > > >leading edge of the kite such as that of a foil?
> > I've
> > > >never heard of a foil kite inverting, but I've
> > not
> > > >read much about foils. In rating foils versus bow
> > > >kites, which would your recommend? I may try a
> > foil
> > > >if the bow kite prices stay high (Flysurfer
> > versus
> > > >Cabrinha Xbow).
> > > >Thanks,
> > > >George
> > > >
> > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > George,
> > > > >
> > > > > Some flat LEI kites have the invert problems
> > due to
> > > > > their flatness. The
> > > > > flatter the kite, the more it tends to invert.
> > I
> > > > > think that all future
> > > > > flat LEI kites will not be too flat to remove
> > this
> > > > > problem.
> > > > >
> > > > > Also, you need some curve in the kite to get
> > the
> > > > > "sled boosting" effect
> > > > > as described in
> > > > >
> > >
> >
> >http://kitesurfingschool.org/kite.htm#Kite%20Design%20Fundamentals
> > > > >
> > > > > (heavy duty reading)
> > > > >
> > > > > Hung.
> > > > >
> > > > > George Sarris wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >Although I do not own a flat LEI (bow kite) I
> > have
> > > > > >read forums regarding the kite inverting.
> > > > > Supposedly
> > > > > >after that happens, there is little control
> > in
> > > > > >depowering. I plan to buy a flat LEI bow kite
> > by
> > > > > late
> > > > > >spring if the prices come down to what I
> > would
> > > > > >consider reasonable. The prices for a
> > Cabrinha
> > > > > Xbow
> > > > > >16m are around $1700 complete. I would
> > consider
> > > > > >purchasing one if the price was around
> > $1200-$1300.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >George
> > > > > >
> > > > > >--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > Having used a new flat LEI in the last
> > couple
> > > > > weeks
> > > > > > > on snow, my response
> > > > > > > is a definite yes for snow (assuming that
> > all
> > > > > flat
> > > > > > > LEIs are somewhat
> > > > > > > similar).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > So far, there are almost no negative
> > things
> > > > > about
> > > > > > > the flat LEI kite I used.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The positive things are:
> > > > > > > - Depower: boy, can these flat kite ever
> > > > > > > DEpower. I've never had to
> > > > > > > use the safety leash and wonder whether
> > you need
> > > > > it.
> > > > > > > There was a time I
> > > > > > > crash landed and the bar got off my hand,
> > the
> > > > > kite
> > > > > > > lost control and shot
> > > > > > > across the wind window. I was not dragged
> > > > > around at
> > > > > > > all for that.
> > > > > > > - Relaunch on snow: even better than foil.
> > > > > You
> > > > > > > just let go off the
> > > > > > > bar and the kite will slowly drop and
> > hover at
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > window edge waiting
> > > > > > > for relaunch. When you relaunch, it goes
> > up
> > > > > slowly
> > > > > > > and not dragging you
> > > > > > > around like foil.
> > > > > > > - Less kite to carry around: A single 9m
> > > > > feels
> > > > > > > like a 8m/10m combo
> > > > > > > (or even a 7m/11m combo). Two kite quiver
> > is
> > > > > now
> > > > > > > possible. For me
> > > > > > > probably a 9 and a 15 flat LEI.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Jumping is very good and hang time is
> > excellent.
> >
>=== message truncated ===
>
>
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Kitepower Sydney wrote:

>Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
>refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
>are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
>even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can be
>overcome.
>
>
>
Thanks Steve.  Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
Why did he stated MOST and not ALL?  Aren't they pretty straight forward
to fix?

Hung.

I guess thats because most of the problems are not real problems Hung. The
"problems"  have  been blown out of proportion by pimps for other brands
that did not or do not have a bow kite.
So some "problems" are not problems at all, and therefore do not need to be
fixed.

All the flat and bow kites on the market have been out for max 6 months so I
think it is a bit premature to be calling any of them second gen yet.

Cya and

Goodwinds

Steve McCormack
www.kitepower.com.au


   _____

From: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of hungvu2000@...
Sent: Thursday, 9 March 2006 10:39 AM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Are new flat LEIs worth it?


Kitepower Sydney wrote:

>Bruno spent time with the Cabrinha kite designer, in China, in secret
>refining the Crossbow and switchblade designs, and he has stated that they
>are closest to his preferred design, He is working on refining the design
>even more and has stated that most of the initial and minor problems, can
be
>overcome.
>
>
>
Thanks Steve.  Sounds like Bruno did confirm the initial minor problems
in the first batch of his bow kites (as I heard directly from other
kiters) and agreed with me that those minor problems can be overcome.
Why did he stated MOST and not ALL?  Aren't they pretty straight forward
to fix?

Hung.



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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since modern flat LEIs can depower 100% (or almost there) and very easy
to relaunch, should beginners and schools start using them?

Hung.

I have noticed recently that all Yahoo groups have RSS feeds (RSS stands
for Real Simple Syndication).

RSS is a new tool allowing one to monitor and view all new changes to
web sites and groups on the net.

Just need an RSS reader such as RSSReader at http://www.rssreader.com/
and the RSS feeds that you want to add to the reader.

The RSS feed for the Kitesurf group is at
http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/kitesurf/rss (just add this URL to
your RSSReader)

The RSS feed for the Ksurfschool group is at
http://rss.groups.yahoo.com/group/ksurfschool/rss

The RSS feed for the Kitesurfing School web site is at
http://kitesurfingschool.org/rss.xml

Now you don't need to receive any group email and simply view all the
new posts in all groups and favorite web sites via a single RSSReader.

I am creating a new RSS section on the kitesurfing school web site to
list all the currently available kitesurfing related RSS feeds.

P.S., If you don't currently use RSS, use it.  While browser is part of
Web 1.0, RSS is a part of web 2.0

Hung.

Hi...i'm an expert windsurfer/wave sailor, very advanced wakeboarder
but new to kiteboarding.  I've flown power snow kites and paragliders
so i'm ok with the kite thing.  I was hoping to use my wakeboard rather
than drop another $300-$600 on a kiteboard, but someone told me it wont
work well.   Is this true?  Why not?  I've checked out some kiteboards
and don't see much discernable difference?  Please advise.

I have a Liquid Force Subjekt wakeboard 137...54" long and 17" wide.
The 4 fins are small, but arc'ed for pretty good hold.

Thanks for any advice you can offer.

Hui

In a message dated 4/4/2006 3:46:03 PM US Mountain Standard Time,
huibraddah@... writes:

Hi...i'm  an expert windsurfer/wave sailor, very advanced wakeboarder
but new to  kiteboarding.  I've flown power snow kites and paragliders
so i'm ok  with the kite thing.  I was hoping to use my wakeboard rather
than  drop another $300-$600 on a kiteboard, but someone told me it wont
work  well.   Is this true?  Why not?  I've checked out some  kiteboards
and don't see much discernable difference?  Please  advise.

I have a Liquid Force Subjekt wakeboard 137...54" long and 17"  wide.
The 4 fins are small, but arc'ed for pretty good  hold.

Thanks for any advice you can  offer.

Hui



unless you are WAY powered up  wakeboards have too much rocker and tend to be
narrow at the tips, I have used  wakebaords and even went through the trouble
of cutting to remove some of the  rocker, the design parameters for straight
line pull verses that of a kite  differ in board design, your ability to go
upwind will suffer as well as the  abilty to glide through lulls, most newer
style kiteboards have a straighter  outline and are much flatter, bigger fins
allow you to carve upwind without  edging so hard as too lose drive. anyway, the
money I spent trying to save the  cost of a good board went pretty much
unrewarded.
  where you ride also dictates  what board shape will work best, ie, flat
water in gusty conditions would  require a flater rocker and straighter outline,
in surf or choppy conditions a  rounder outline with a bit of rocker and some
tip kick might work best, my  advice would be to try to use several different
boards ( most kiters will let  you give their board a try) or, if thats not
possible look at a " spleene  session 141" and copy it from plywood, cheap and
it
works in most conditions (  although kinda heavy made of ply). I've owned a
dozen or so boards and my home  made balsawood board is my favorite.
just my two cents, hope it  helps.
Denise

http://hometown.aol.com/denisesewa/index.html


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I got invited to use Google Analytic, so I tried it for
kitesurfingschool.org and found that it has a very nice feature showing
all the visitor world wide on the world map.

So here is it on http://kitesurfingschool.org home page you can find a
kiter population distribution world wide based on 1 week worth of
traffic at kitesurfingschool.org.  I will continue to update this image
in the future when I have more traffic info.

Hung.

Paul Menta has been busy doing some advanced testing on Cabrinha's new bow
kite, the Contra "Crossbow" in secret down in Key West, FL.  Some of the
traditional approaches that work well for C kites for certain procedures
have been less than successful with bow kites.  So Paul has been innovating
new techniques for critical skills like solo launch, landing, self-rescue
and more with the new bow kites.

Paul has documented this in a ton of photos, text and has even created a
blog to field questions in.  Bows are gaining ground out there through new
performance attributes.   Why not  tune in and learn more at:

http://www.thekitehouse.com/

I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind probably in the 20 to
30 knots range.

Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.  Some doing OK on 7m
classic and some even on 5m classic kites.

So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me is around 7m (I am
light but have known to use the same kite size as average kiters).

Hung.

At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!

Hung,
How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
coast of Florida.

George

--- hungvu2000@... wrote:

> I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> probably in the 20 to
> 30 knots range.
>
> Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> Some doing OK on 7m
> classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
>
> So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> is around 7m (I am
> light but have known to use the same kite size as
> average kiters).
>
> Hung.
>


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At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!

Amazing!  I was in Hateras myself and riding the same wind with the 9m
Waroo (actually with the 9m Waroo on Saturday and Monday but with the 5m
Grunt on Sunday - I could probably ride the Waroo 9m on Sunday too but
it made more sense with the 5m Grunt).  Was it up to 40 knots?

Hung.

David Alger wrote:

>At Real in Hatteras this weekend, the two student intermediate team
>used a 5 M Waroo over a three day period in winds starting at 25 knots
>and ending gusting to 40.  I weigh 160; the other guy 190.  At no time
>were we overpowered. Once up and riding, the sheeting action allowed
>smooth, controlled rides.  It was quite amazing to look around and see
>no other kites out.  We are just getting comfortable with getting up
>and riding, barely intermediate.  Flat kites rule!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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George,

I would say it is OK.  It may not be the best in quality but workmanship
and durability should be OK.

I have never seen my Waroos inverted.

Self-launch should not be an issue unless it is way overpowered then it
is wise to have someone to help you (similar to classic LEI).

Go for the Waroo 20m.  I am using the Waroo 16m this afternoon in
similar wind and was the only one who can go up wind.  For heavier
kiters the Waroo 20m should be a better bet.

Hung.

George Sarris wrote:

>Hung,
>How is the workmanship and durability of the Waroo?
>Any problems with inverting?  Can they be self
>launched?  I've been thinking about buying a 16m or a
>20m for those summer 8-10 mph sea breezes on the west
>coast of Florida.
>
>George
>
>--- hungvu2000@... wrote:
>
> > I went out to day with the Waroo 9m in strong wind
> > probably in the 20 to
> > 30 knots range.
> >
> > Other kiters get beaten up on 8m classic kites.
> > Some doing OK on 7m
> > classic and some even on 5m classic kites.
> >
> > So I estimated the high range of the Waroo 9m for me
> > is around 7m (I am
> > light but have known to use the same kite size as
> > average kiters).
> >
> > Hung.
> >
>
>
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I rode my 16m Waroo today in wind where other kiters were using 16m
Waroo and classic LEI 17m.

In the end, there were only two 16m Waroos left flying and I was the
only one who can go upwind.

I would guess the 16m Waroo low end is around 18m to 19m classic LEI.

So for flat kites, just add 15% to 20% to both the high end and low end
wind range of a classic LEI of the same size.

P.S., To use all of the Waroo high end and low end, you need to play
with the connection on the back line pig tail.

Hung.