I totally agree!
I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take advantage of
the smooth water.
In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very quickly
allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the lulls, it does
luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff is great, but
it very rarely folds.

Philip

Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
1-888-465-2632
1-802-862-3847
www.inlandsea.com
www.kitesite.net

-----Original Message-----
From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.

I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most gusty wind
we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had the 11.5
and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when I left
home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use the AR5 5.5
instead.

The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this gusty
condition.

It could be the technique too as I normally don't use the "chicken loop"
and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power of the
kite.

Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250 USD!

Hung.



Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Does anyone have a used 5.0 that they want to sell for a good price.
Please email me back.
Scott P.

>From: scottplamondon@...
>Reply-To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
>To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [ksurfschool] I need a Wipika 5.0 kite used.
>Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 16:12:44 -0000
>
>Does anyone have a used 5.0 that they want to sell for a good price.
>Please email me back.
>Scott P.
>
hi scott,
check out oceanside they have some cracking deals on at the mo
fly high
kev
_________________________________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com.

FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust.  I suspect we may be
comparing apples and oranges.  I'm told that on Maui it can be blowing, say,
15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes, then back
to15 again.  On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at 15kts and
30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15.  Foils can easily handle the latter
case.  But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and have it go to
30!  I can't imagine any way that would be managable.

-Dave
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Mann" <phil@...>
To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


> I totally agree!
> I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take advantage of
> the smooth water.
> In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very quickly
> allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the lulls, it does
> luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff is great,
but
> it very rarely folds.
>
> Philip
>
> Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
> 1-888-465-2632
> 1-802-862-3847
> www.inlandsea.com
> www.kitesite.net
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
> Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
> To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
> ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
>
>
> I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
>
> I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most gusty wind
> we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had the 11.5
> and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when I left
> home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use the AR5 5.5
> instead.
>
> The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this gusty
> condition.
>
> It could be the technique too as I normally don't use the "chicken loop"
> and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power of the
> kite.
>
> Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250 USD!
>
> Hung.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about the
North shore).

Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition when
the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
(our side-slightly-off-shore condition).

Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the end
of the session.  Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
period.  In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind range
of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in any
30 seconds period.  What this means is a kite with larger wind range
allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind range a
shorter session.

Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind range or
100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots for
me with my AR5 5.5).  Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and new
generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots).  If you
add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
foils.

The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-range,
all the others are myths...*

These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."

Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however, they
are the topics of another discussion...

* I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils and
inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)

Hung.


Dave Raue wrote:
>
> FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust.  I suspect we may be
> comparing apples and oranges.  I'm told that on Maui it can be blowing, say,
> 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes, then back
> to15 again.  On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at 15kts and
> 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15.  Foils can easily handle the latter
> case.  But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and have it go to
> 30!  I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
>
> -Dave
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Mann" <phil@...>
> To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
> Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
>
> > I totally agree!
> > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take advantage of
> > the smooth water.
> > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very quickly
> > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the lulls, it does
> > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff is great,
> but
> > it very rarely folds.
> >
> > Philip
> >
> > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
> > 1-888-465-2632
> > 1-802-862-3847
> > www.inlandsea.com
> > www.kitesite.net
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
> > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
> > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
> > ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
> >
> >
> > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
> >
> > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most gusty wind
> > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had the 11.5
> > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when I left
> > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use the AR5 5.5
> > instead.
> >
> > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this gusty
> > condition.
> >
> > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use the "chicken loop"
> > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power of the
> > kite.
> >
> > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250 USD!
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Scott,

I have a used Liquid Force/Wipika 5.0 for sale.  In fact I also have a 3, 4,
6.5, 7.5, 9.5 all Liquid Force used for sale.  These are special close-outs
available at an unbeleivable one time price!  Contact me directly for the
entire list and prices.  The LF kites are great kites, very stable and in
two line convertible to quad line.  The kites are only 2 to 3 months old and
used in the Kitty Hawk Kites Kite Surfing School.

Chris Mooore
1-800-334-4777 ext. 46
chris@...

>    From: scottplamondon@...
>Subject: I need a Wipika 5.0 kite used.
>
>Does anyone have a used 5.0 that they want to sell for a good price.
>Please email me back.
>Scott P.
_________________________________________________________________
Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

Hung,

You have hit some great spots.  How was Australia, where did you end up over
there?  As to Maui being a   non-gusty spot, don't go there in July!  When I
was out there I had the greatest gust range of anyplace that I have
kitesurfed.  Typically 20 to 35 to 38 mph with two days at 20 to 45 mph +!
  I was on a Wipika classic at the time, which was quite a handful as it was.
I remember when they had the first King of the Air over there, Raphael S. of
F one tried to fly a foil but it kept collasping and reinflating in lulls and
gusts.  I suspect current foils may be less prone to this performance.

Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience.  Under those
conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds try to
deal with that.  That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!

Good winds,
Rick

<<
  Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
  places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
  Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
  non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about the
  North shore).

  Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition when
  the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
  (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).

  Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the end
  of the session.  Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
  period.  In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind range
  of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in any
  30 seconds period.  What this means is a kite with larger wind range
  allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind range a
  shorter session.

  Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind range or
  100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots for
  me with my AR5 5.5).  Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and new
  generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots).  If you
  add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
  gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
  foils.

  The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-range,
  all the others are myths...*

  These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
  day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."

  Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however, they
  are the topics of another discussion...

  * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils and
  inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)

  Hung.


  Dave Raue wrote:
  >
  > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust.  I suspect we may be
  > comparing apples and oranges.  I'm told that on Maui it can be blowing,
say,
  > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes, then back
  > to15 again.  On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at 15kts and
  > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15.  Foils can easily handle the
latter
  > case.  But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and have it go to
  > 30!  I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
  >
  > -Dave
  > ----- Original Message -----
  > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@...>
  > To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
  > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
  > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
  >
  > > I totally agree!
  > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take advantage of
  > > the smooth water.
  > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very quickly
  > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the lulls, it
does
  > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff is great,
  > but
  > > it very rarely folds.
  > >
  > > Philip
  > >
  > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
  > > 1-888-465-2632
  > > 1-802-862-3847
  > > www.inlandsea.com
  > > www.kitesite.net
  > >
  > > -----Original Message-----
  > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
  > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
  > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
  > > ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
  > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
  > >
  > >
  > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
  > >
  > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most gusty wind
  > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had the 11.5
  > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when I left
  > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use the AR5 5.5
  > > instead.
  > >
  > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this gusty
  > > condition.
  > >
  > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use the "chicken loop"
  > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power of the
  > > kite.
  > >
  > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250 USD!
  > >
  > > Hung. >>

kitesrfer@... wrote:
> Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience.  Under those
> conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds try to
> deal with that.  That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!

We actually went out for a 1 - 2 hours session! I used my AR5 5.5 with
15 m line and Luke Stanek from JOJO with his JoJo Rage 4.0 m2 (he is
here 1 or 2 days for product demo).  We quitted when the wind become 35+
knots (the windsurfers started rigging down to 3.x sails).

Going from 30m line to 15m line add another 5-8 knots to the upper wind
range of my AR5 5.5; however, it is harder to jump and jibe as thing is
happening so fast with shorter line.

Hung.

Hung,

I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range.  I have heard that the 5.5
m jellyfishes badly in high wind.  I have yet to experience that.  What has
your experience been?  That must have been some session.  Did your kite
stall much?

Rick

----- Original Message -----
From: "Hung Vu" <hungvu@...>
To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


> kitesrfer@... wrote:
> > Of course Maui is a far cry from your 5 to 45 kt. experience.  Under
those
> > conditions I think I would leave the kites at home and watch the birds
try to
> > deal with that.  That could be pretty entertaining all by itself!
>
> We actually went out for a 1 - 2 hours session! I used my AR5 5.5 with
> 15 m line and Luke Stanek from JOJO with his JoJo Rage 4.0 m2 (he is
> here 1 or 2 days for product demo).  We quitted when the wind become 35+
> knots (the windsurfers started rigging down to 3.x sails).
>
> Going from 30m line to 15m line add another 5-8 knots to the upper wind
> range of my AR5 5.5; however, it is harder to jump and jibe as thing is
> happening so fast with shorter line.
>
> Hung.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hung,

My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive.  I
used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year.  I sold it and I now use a Wipika
16.4 AB in similar conditions.

I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
1.  Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water.  This
mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
leashes and a broken kite line).
2.  Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
water.  Inflatables rule in this dept.

Of course, I am talking about larger kites.  The problems that I
experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.

Kenny

--- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
>
> Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
> places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
> Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
> non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
the
> North shore).
>
> Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
when
> the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
> (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
>
> Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
end
> of the session.  Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
> period.  In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
range
> of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
any
> 30 seconds period.  What this means is a kite with larger wind range
> allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
range a
> shorter session.
>
> Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
range or
> 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
for
> me with my AR5 5.5).  Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
new
> generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots).  If
you
> add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
> gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
> foils.
>
> The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
range,
> all the others are myths...*
>
> These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
> day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
>
> Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
they
> are the topics of another discussion...
>
> * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
and
> inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
>
> Hung.
>
>
> Dave Raue wrote:
> >
> > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust.  I suspect
we may be
> > comparing apples and oranges.  I'm told that on Maui it can be
blowing, say,
> > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
then back
> > to15 again.  On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
15kts and
> > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15.  Foils can easily handle
the latter
> > case.  But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
have it go to
> > 30!  I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
> >
> > -Dave
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
> > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
> > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
> >
> > > I totally agree!
> > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
advantage of
> > > the smooth water.
> > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
quickly
> > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
lulls, it does
> > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
is great,
> > but
> > > it very rarely folds.
> > >
> > > Philip
> > >
> > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
> > > 1-888-465-2632
> > > 1-802-862-3847
> > > www.inlandsea.com
> > > www.kitesite.net
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
> > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
> > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
> > > ksurfschool@y...
> > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
> > >
> > >
> > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
> > >
> > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
gusty wind
> > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
the 11.5
> > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
I left
> > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
the AR5 5.5
> > > instead.
> > >
> > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
gusty
> > > condition.
> > >
> > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
the "chicken loop"
> > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
of the
> > > kite.
> > >
> > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
USD!
> > >
> > > Hung.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

While I don't agree about the taking on water part (at least for Mosquitos),
I've suffered from the folding/luffing problem in light winds too.  I've
found that if i'm using a board with straps it's not so bad cause you can
keep the kite moving around and just get in and go.  But wakeboard bindings
are another matter.  When 75% of your attention is on getting in bindings
and the other 75% (!!) on dealing with luffs it can get ugly.  A 3 or 4-line
set up is preffered IMHO cause you can often recover by a quick snap on the
brakes.  On the other hand, once you get going it's easier to deal with.
Many's the time that I've recovered from a gust-induced luff when fully
locked in but sharply turning upwind to snap the lines tight.  The first
time I couldn't believe that it really worked, but it does!

-D
----- Original Message -----
From: <fernmanus@...>
To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2001 5:30 PM
Subject: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


> Hung,
>
> My experience with foils in gusty light winds was not positive.  I
> used a 9.3 CA New Wave last year.  I sold it and I now use a Wipika
> 16.4 AB in similar conditions.
>
> I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
> 1.  Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
> lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water.  This
> mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
> leashes and a broken kite line).
> 2.  Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
> water.  Inflatables rule in this dept.
>
> Of course, I am talking about larger kites.  The problems that I
> experienced do not occur regularly when using smaller kites.
>
> Kenny
>
> --- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
> >
> > Being a landlocked sailor, I have windsurf/kitesurf at most popular
> > places on earth (Canada, US, Europe, Caribbean, Mexico, Venezuela,
> > Hawaii, Australia, etc.) I can say that Maui is on my prefer list of
> > non-gusty wind location (strong but not gusty - I am talking about
> the
> > North shore).
> >
> > Of all the places, home is where I find the most gusty condition
> when
> > the wind blows over the tree and building before it gets to the lake
> > (our side-slightly-off-shore condition).
> >
> > Wind range is the range of the wind speed from the beginning to the
> end
> > of the session.  Gust is the range of the wind in any 30 seconds
> > period.  In a day at home (yesterday in fact!), we may have a wind
> range
> > of 5 - 45 knots and a gust of 50% - 100% increase in wind speed in
> any
> > 30 seconds period.  What this means is a kite with larger wind range
> > allow us to have a longer session and a kite with shorter wind
> range a
> > shorter session.
> >
> > Only the inflatable can currently handle double wind speed wind
> range or
> > 100% increase in wind speed (e.g., 10 - 20 knots or 12 to 25 knots
> for
> > me with my AR5 5.5).  Normal foil probably 50% (10 - 15 knots) and
> new
> > generation of foils such as the New Wave 75% (10 - 17.5 knots).  If
> you
> > add this range with proper edging skill, you can easily handle most
> > gusts in the world with the inflatables or the newer generation of
> > foils.
> >
> > The only advantage of inflatables over foils currently is wind-
> range,
> > all the others are myths...*
> >
> > These myths are very similar to the Wipika Classic myth in the early
> > day: "You can't go up wind with a Wipika Classic ..."
> >
> > Of course foils have other advantages over inflatables; however,
> they
> > are the topics of another discussion...
> >
> > * I am not discussing about the intrinsic differences between foils
> and
> > inflatables (drift-launching, pumping, kite maintenance, etc.)
> >
> > Hung.
> >
> >
> > Dave Raue wrote:
> > >
> > > FWIW, I think the issue here is how gusty is a gust.  I suspect
> we may be
> > > comparing apples and oranges.  I'm told that on Maui it can be
> blowing, say,
> > > 15kts and all of a sudden it goes to 30 kts for a couple minutes,
> then back
> > > to15 again.  On Long Island a gust would be more like blowing at
> 15kts and
> > > 30 seconds of 18-20 kts then back to 15.  Foils can easily handle
> the latter
> > > case.  But I wouldn't want to be on a 7.5m foil in 15 kts and
> have it go to
> > > 30!  I can't imagine any way that would be managable.
> > >
> > > -Dave
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Philip Mann" <phil@i...>
> > > To: <ksurfschool@y...>
> > > Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2001 9:00 AM
> > > Subject: RE: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
> > >
> > > > I totally agree!
> > > > I have been using my F-ONEs in off shore gusty winds to take
> advantage of
> > > > the smooth water.
> > > > In a strong gust the foil rushes to the edge of the window very
> quickly
> > > > allowing it to deposer by itself and then slows down in the
> lulls, it does
> > > > luff a bit if the difference in wind strength in gust and luff
> is great,
> > > but
> > > > it very rarely folds.
> > > >
> > > > Philip
> > > >
> > > > Inland Sea Windsurf Co and Kitesite.net
> > > > 1-888-465-2632
> > > > 1-802-862-3847
> > > > www.inlandsea.com
> > > > www.kitesite.net
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@n...]
> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2001 7:37 AM
> > > > To: cankitesurf@egroups.com; kitesurf@egroups.com;
> > > > ksurfschool@y...
> > > > Subject: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I always believed that foils are useless in gusty wind.
> > > >
> > > > I took my New Wave 4.9 m2 out yesterday in probably the most
> gusty wind
> > > > we have around here (inland lake, roughly 2 x 6 km). I only had
> the 11.5
> > > > and the New Wave 4.9 with me because the wind was lighter when
> I left
> > > > home; otherwise, I would be afraid of the gusty wind and use
> the AR5 5.5
> > > > instead.
> > > >
> > > > The New Wave 4.9 was doing OK, just as the AR5 would in this
> gusty
> > > > condition.
> > > >
> > > > It could be the technique too as I normally don't use
> the "chicken loop"
> > > > and rely more on board edging and the strap to adjust the power
> of the
> > > > kite.
> > > >
> > > > Not bad for a used foil I bought last winter for roughly $250
> USD!
> > > >
> > > > Hung.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Kenny,

> I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland conditions:
> 1.  Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a brief
> lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water.  This
> mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken board
> leashes and a broken kite line).

All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
wind).  When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on the
lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape.  When an
inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
about it.  In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall down in
a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have numerous
tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
event.

Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation.  Kites will
collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines (both
for foils and inflatables).  By keeping some tension on the back lines,
you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.

> 2.  Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
> water.  Inflatables rule in this dept.

That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the New
Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday.  A modern foil floats longer and
relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is less
than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had numerous
crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
relaunch them with minimum effort)

Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future after
seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
the following:
	 1- Launch the kite
	 2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
	 3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
	 4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
	 5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing

Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only one I
think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.

P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with the
JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup).  A high
performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part of my
kite quiver in the future.

Hung.

Rick Iossi wrote:
> I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
> Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range.  I have heard that the 5.5
> m jellyfishes badly in high wind.  I have yet to experience that.  What has
> your experience been?  That must have been some session.  Did your kite
> stall much?

I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5.  Besides, I find
the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

Hung.

Hung,

That is interesting that you have had a similar experience with the 5.5 m.  I
have had it out close to 40 mph and it was still very well behaved and on 30
m lines.  My old 7.5 m, above the "sweet" wind range would become almost
uncontrollable with violent jellyfishing along with folding back wing tips.
It worked very well below that "terminal resonance" windspeed.  It is
interesting that the 5.5 was much more manageable than an old two lined
Wipika classic  that I once used in 40 to 45 mph winds. Much above 40 mph I
did the "hungery porpose manuver".  High winds are fun but I am glad that
they are rare.  I hope to last longer!

Rick


-----Original Message-----
From: Hung Vu [mailto:hungvu@...]
Sent: Tuesday, July 03, 2001 8:18 PM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Foils and gusty wind myth!


Rick Iossi wrote:
> I have a AR5 5.5 m as well but have only had enough wind to use it twice.
> Both times the wind was in the high 30 mph range.  I have heard that the 5.5
> m jellyfishes badly in high wind.  I have yet to experience that.  What has
> your experience been?  That must have been some session.  Did your kite
> stall much?

I don't think the 5.5 jellyfishes worse than the 11.5.  Besides, I find
the jellyfish "problem" is fun once you are prepared for the "rush".

Yes, it was some session and I wished I had the nerve to go out with the
4 lined Wipika Classis 3.5 with 15m line in 35+ knots (I call it quit
after failing to launch the Wipika Classic 3.5 with 30m line)

Hung.

Hung,

Let's go back to what I was talking about.  I agree that foils make
sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
conditions.  In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing.  Hung, do you
recommend the JoJo?  If so, why?

It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds.  However, when
it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
couple times - WATCH OUT!!!  You are going to get seriously dragged.

My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
minutes and would not relaunch.

I get into my wakeboard bindings by flying the kite out away from
shore and then hooking into the trim loop.  I usually fly the kite so
that it is pulling me gradually away from shore and then hurry to get
the bindings on.  I wouldn't call it easy, but with a little bit of
practise it is safe and no big deal.

Kenny


--- In ksurfschool@y..., Hung Vu <hungvu@n...> wrote:
> Kenny,
>
> > I see two big problems with foils in light gusty inland
conditions:
> > 1.  Folding: I had terrible problems with the kite folding in a
brief
> > lull and then reopening right before the kite hit the water.  This
> > mades for some brutal body drags (resulting in several broken
board
> > leashes and a broken kite line).
>
> All kites would collapse in very gusty wind (both light or strong
> wind).  When a foil collapse, it folds itself and you can pull on
the
> lines (walk or swim backward) to get it back to shape.  When an
> inflatable collapse it simply falls and there is NOTHING you can do
> about it.  In its first few weeks of use, I got my AR5 5.5 fall
down in
> a pile of rocks and damage the front leading edge. I still have
numerous
> tapes on the front leading edge of my AR5 5.5 to remind me of that
> event.
>
> Since then I have learned how to deal with the situation.  Kites
will
> collapse in gusty wind if you fly them using only the front lines
(both
> for foils and inflatables).  By keeping some tension on the back
lines,
> you can prevent them from collapsing in gusty wind.
>
> > 2.  Long lulls - foils take on water after a few minutes on the
> > water.  Inflatables rule in this dept.
>
> That's what I used to believe but changed my belief after using the
New
> Wave and also the JOJO Rage yesterday.  A modern foil floats longer
and
> relaunch easier in very little wind that unless the long lulls is
less
> than 5 knots it should not be a problem relaunching them (I had
numerous
> crashes with the New Wave and the JOJO Rage and so far be able to
> relaunch them with minimum effort)
>
> Furthermore, I may start using wakeboard and binding in the future
after
> seeing Luke Stanek from JOJO kite doing
> the following:
>  1- Launch the kite
>  2- Walk into shallow water (or drag into deep water)
>  3- Active the safety leash to land the kite straight down wind
>  4- Get into the binding with "both hands"
>  5- Grab the bar, launch the kite easily and start sailing
>
> Of all the methods of getting into the binding, this is the only
one I
> think is "civilized", safe enough and may "lure" me into using it.
>
> P.S., I made some of the highest jumps around here yesterday with
the
> JOJO Rage 4.0 m2 (very gusty wind, no depower rig setup).  A high
> performance foil for medium and high wind will definitely be part
of my
> kite quiver in the future.
>
> Hung.

Kenny,

> Let's go back to what I was talking about.  I agree that foils make
> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
> conditions.

Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
performance kite and a very light kite.  So far only foils and
C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.

I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
them.  Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
use in even lighter wind)

>  In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing.  Hung, do you
> recommend the JoJo?  If so, why?

The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
and the Jojo Rage 4.0 .  So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
higher performance one.  Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.

The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
kitesurfing and kiteskiing.

> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds.  However, when
> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
> couple times - WATCH OUT!!!  You are going to get seriously dragged.

If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite.  If
you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
ready.  If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
kite later on with more control.

> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
> minutes and would not relaunch.

It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch.  If
you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
Wet is better.

I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
light and gusty wind.

Hung.

you are all talking about 9.3 and 12.5 concept air i have a 6.3 new wave
which a fantasic kite. now need a light wind kite but hear anything bigger
is not to the same standard

----------
>From: Hung Vu <hungvu@...>
>To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!
>Date: Fri, Jul 6, 2001, 3:24 am
>

> Kenny,
>
>> Let's go back to what I was talking about.  I agree that foils make
>> sense in moderate/strong winds, but I am not so sure about light wind
>> conditions.
>
> Light wind is where foils excel as in light wind you want a very high
> performance kite and a very light kite.  So far only foils and
> C-Quad/Bean can deliver that type of characteristics.
>
> I have been using the XXXL for more than 2 years (for both kitesurfing
> and kiteskiing) and the Concept Air 12.5 and never have any problem with
> them.  Actually, the only "wish" I have is that they should be higher
> performance and lighter (especially for the Concept air 12.5 due to its
> use in even lighter wind)
>
>>  In fact, I am considering buying a couple small foils
>> that I can use for kite surfing and kite skiing.  Hung, do you
>> recommend the JoJo?  If so, why?
>
> The only two medium/strong wind foils I ever flown are the New Wave 4.9
> and the Jojo Rage 4.0 .  So far they both work well. The Jojo Rage is a
> higher performance one.  Concept Air used to make the EX's Wave which is
> of the same performance caliber as the Jojo Rage.
>
> The reason I think medium/strong wind foil is of appeal for me is my
> desire of jumping higher and the ability of using the same kite for both
> kitesurfing and kiteskiing.
>
>> It is not such a big deal when your small kite folds.  However, when
>> it happens on a 3-line 9.3 New Wave and the kite finally decides to
>> respond and open up 5 feet above the water with the lines twisted a
>> couple times - WATCH OUT!!!  You are going to get seriously dragged.
>
> If you use handle, just play with the brake lines to stall the kite.  If
> you use bar, pull on the center line to keep the kite under control.
> It's easier to keep the kite under control and it fly whenever you are
> ready.  If worse come to worse, just drop the bar, you can relaunch the
> kite later on with more control.
>
>> My 9.3 New Wave did take on water during lulls of more than a few
>> minutes and would not relaunch.
>
> It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
> minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch.  If
> you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
> reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
> Wet is better.
>
> I always use opened cell foils for light wind due to the closed cell
> effect which make closed-cell foil not as good as opened cell foil in
> light and gusty wind.
>
> Hung.
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>

Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

> It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
> minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch.  If
> you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
> reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
> Wet is better.

I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
& it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

Speaking of ARCs, stacking them for light wind performance seems to be
getting increasingly popular.  I had to have it explained to me like this
before I finally understood the maneuverability issue: You're steering the
little kite on the bottom.  IT pulls the bigger, upper kite with it, from
RIGHT THERE (faster response, due to 7m lines).  Overall what happens is it
steers quicker than the big kite by itself !!

Mel

Mel wrote:
> > It's true that if you have the lulls less than 5 knots for a few
> > minutes, most foils would absorb so much water and won't relaunch.  If
> > you go out in such light wind and want the ability to relaunch more
> > reliable, foils with inflatable cells such as the Mosquito and the Jojo
> > Wet is better.
>
> I know it doesn't really come under the "foil" classification we're
> discussing, but I had an ARC on the water for quite a while (a few minutes)
> & it relaunched easily in a 5 knot puff.

I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
high performance foil would not in the same condition...

Hung.

i'm a begining kiteboarder, but experienced wakeboarder. i want to
stay with a wakeboard type board. everybody i've talked to said i
need a big board to start. i was wondering if the 171 liquidforce
picklefork is big enough to get me started. if any one has info on
this board or other big wakeboards, let me know.

thanks, keith

can anybody tell me how much the length of a control bar actually
affects the performance of a kite. i know that longer bars can
increase the reactiveness of a kite (but how much). i have a 24 inch
bar with an 11.0 free air. is this a long enough bar or do i need a
longer bar.

thanks, keith

Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

> I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
> high performance foil would not in the same condition...

Could be any of a number of factors:
No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
it adds more drag than you'd think).
Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
might).
The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky.  It
seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
so rare to crash them.  Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
ARCs in light winds?

Mel

IMHO arcs launch so well because the angle of attack can be varied.  Just
don't turn them inside out treating them like an inflatable while lying on
the water!  A foil launching leading edge up downwind has tons of drag and
very little lift because the bridal sets the AOA at nearly 90 degrees
relative the wind.  My experience is foils launch much better backward,
flying on their brakes, from downwind.

Doug

-----Original Message-----
From: Mel [mailto:kitebord@...]
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 9:42 PM
To: ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurfschool] Re: Foils and gusty wind NOT A myth!


Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

> I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
> high performance foil would not in the same condition...

Could be any of a number of factors:
No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
it adds more drag than you'd think).
Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
might).
The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.

On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky.  It
seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
so rare to crash them.  Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
ARCs in light winds?

Mel




Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Doug Adams (E-mail) <rcpilot@...> wrote:

>My experience is foils launch much better backward,
> flying on their brakes, from downwind.

It's supposed to be possible to do that with an ARC too, but I had to
intentionally crash it LE down to try it, & by the time I'd adjusted my
center strap all the way out the darn thing was airborne again!  In other
words, if you really want to try it, make sure you adjust your strap all the
way out BEFORE you "land" it nose down, or it may relaunch on its own before
you get a chance to try the reverse launch.

Mel

Actually, the issue Kenny raised is that after staying in the water
during a lull for a while (let's say 10 minutes of less than 5 knots),
most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up.  This is more to do
with the ability of the kite keeping the water out.  I notice that
modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
them to stay on the water longer.

I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
light wind.  We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
think of a reason to buy one.  I select inflatable for its reliable
water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
performance/higher jump and light wind.  Can someone shred a light why
would I buy/try an Arc (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
pretty complex and difficult)

Hung.

Mel wrote:
>
> Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:
>
> > I am not sure understand why an ARC, being heavier, would relaunch and a
> > high performance foil would not in the same condition...
>
> Could be any of a number of factors:
> No bridle (I'm sure when wet it adds more weight than you'd think, just like
> it adds more drag than you'd think).
> Tip battens (added weight, but maybe they help somehow).
> General shape (maybe the arched shape helps somehow).
> Flexibility of shape without bridles (don't know how that would help, but it
> might).
> The fact that mine was practically brand new at the time might be a factor.
>
> On the other hand, since I only tried it once, maybe I was just lucky.  It
> seems the consensus is you never get good at relaunching an ARC because it's
> so rare to crash them.  Anybody else have extremely good success relaunching
> ARCs in light winds?
>
> Mel
>
>
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

That depends on where you live. At the beach, I have seen a sponsored pro
wakeboarder jump on his
first day with a kite in his hands. He didn't need a bigger wakeboard, he used
the one he always
rides with behind his boat.

Start with a Free Air or R3 kite and you my be able to do it. The problem for
you will be the power
you need to stay on your feet with the small wakeboard. You will need to be very
good with the kite
before you try it. You could get yourself or spectators hurt trying to ride with
the power needed
and that would be bad.

If you have a boat to take you to the middle of a lake, where you can't hurt
anybody but yourself,
then maybe you'll want to try. The pro wakeboard learned on a private beach with
nobody around that
could get hurt.

I know one guy with the 11.0 flying it two line, and he uses a 30" bar. If you 4
line the kite or
buy the 2001 11.5 model then the 24" bar will work

Dwight


> i'm a begining kiteboarder, but experienced wakeboarder. i want to
> stay with a wakeboard type board. everybody i've talked to said i
> need a big board to start. i was wondering if the 171 liquidforce
> picklefork is big enough to get me started. if any one has info on
> this board or other big wakeboards, let me know.
>
> thanks, keith
>
>
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As a beginner your problems will be more with keeping the kite where you
want it, keeping you where you want to be, staying oriented right and doing
all this while dealing with bindings.  When you do a nose-over (which you
will) or get spun onto your back your beginner kite skills won't make things
easier.  It's just a very unforgiving set-up to learn, and one that all the
wakeboard skills in the world won't help very much.   Of course anything CAN
be done if you're patient enough.  It's just twice as hard and would take
twice as long to get to the same point.

That said, the 171 is a decent size wakeboard.  I'd strongly urge you to put
straps on it to learn, at least for while.  When you get the waterstart
wired put the bindings back on.  The learning curve is pretty fast, at some
point it all just clicks.  You want to minimize the time that this takes.

-D

----- Original Message -----
From: <rasmussenkeith@...>
To: <ksurfschool@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 06, 2001 10:34 PM
Subject: [ksurfschool] 171 liquidforce picklefork


> i'm a begining kiteboarder, but experienced wakeboarder. i want to
> stay with a wakeboard type board. everybody i've talked to said i
> need a big board to start. i was wondering if the 171 liquidforce
> picklefork is big enough to get me started. if any one has info on
> this board or other big wakeboards, let me know.
>
> thanks, keith
>
>
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Hung Vu <hungvu@...> wrote:

> ...most closed-cells foil or Arc would absorb so much water that would
> render them un-relauncheable when the wind pick up.  ....  I notice that
> modern closed cell foils float better and are constructed better allow
> them to stay on the water longer.

If a modern ARC is constructed the same as the "modern foils" you're
referring to, that could account for mine relaunching better than you
experienced with older foils.  Have you compared their constructions?

> I had only one experience with the Arc kiteskiing in the winter in very
> light wind.  We could relaunch foil easily (both LE up and LE down) and
> could not relaunch the Arc in that light wind (LE down).

As I mentioned, I couldn't get mine to stay down long enough to try the
reverse relaunch on the water!  Remember that "conventional" inflatables
(without reverse launch bridles) won't launch very well off snow either, but
they launch great off water.

> P.S., I am very intrigued about the novelty of the Arc and always try to
> think of a reason to buy one.  I select inflatable for its reliable
> water relaunch and decent performance; I select a foil for higher
> performance/higher jump and light wind.  Can someone shred a light why
> would I buy/try an Arc

Reliable waterlaunch & decent performance like an inflatable.
Instantaneous sheeting like an inflatable, but ALWAYS available (bar
pressure is so low you don't need harness lines).
Small & light to transport & store like a foil.
Easy setup like a foil (just sand the TE, open the vent, unwind the lines,
close the vent & go).
Easy solo landing like a foil (just back it straight downwind, drop the bar
& snap the leash onto your board, all in ANY windspeed).
Automatic gust handling, like no other kite*.

*Actually Banshee/Kiteski has this feature, but without any manual sheeting.

> (stacking for light wind is not it as it sounds
> pretty complex and difficult)

I thought the same thing myself, but from all the reports it's very easy
with ARCs*.  All you need is four 7m lines (2 of them about 7" longer, for
the brakes) that can be easily tied from Q-Power line, & can even be left
lark's headed to one of the kites for next time (so you can still easily use
the other one in the mean time).  As a light wind pioneer, who likes huge
kites, I'd think you'd be VERY interested, especially with the stack's
inherent maneuverability (did my explanation make sense?  If not, just think
of it like a biplane - popular for stunts, due to greater maneuverability).
*most likely due to ARC's stability & insensitivity to tuning errors, since
other kites are notoriously difficult to stack.

Can we now add:
Stackable, for HUGE projected area with the response of a MUCH smaller kite.

Mel

Question:   What's the benefit of shorter lines?

Thanks, Rob

<nvr2la8@...> wrote:

> Question:   What's the benefit of shorter lines?

Greater maneuverability (kite AND board), & if all else is equal*, better
upwind (less line drag yields a better Lift-to-Drag ratio).  The kite
maneuverability is because shorter lines don't stretch or sag as much, so
kite response is quicker.  The board maneuverability comes from the shorter
time it takes the kite to cross the window.  In other words, if you suddenly
want to change your direction of travel by 180 degrees (jibe, bottom turn,
off-the-lip, etc.) there's less delay for the kite to reach the other side
to pull you in the new direction.
*if you're powered up as much, which is less likely, due to the higher low
wind limit that shorter lines give your kite.

Depending on HOW short, jumping can be better, due to the kite's turning &
speed across the window.  It seems that 20 or 30m is best for jumping, but
10 & 15m for wave riding is not good for jumps.

Mel