From: Robert Pratt <rpratt@...>
>Ken are you stearing it to the edge of the window before
re-attachment? or is it just not as windy here? <

I shudder to think what would happen to my fingers if I were
to try to steer the kite while grasping a leader line or
steel ring. My impression is that a solid 20 knots tends to
jerk a 5.0 inflatable around pretty thoroughly.

KW
www.kenwinner.com

From: <Greg.Walsh@...>
> In the meantime, how about  tricks where the pilot does a
rotation (either
> a spin or a flip) and flies the kite through the same
rotation. Tight
> lines, no twists and powered up the whole way through.


Greg,

You have high standards. Last July I saw Dez Walsh
(instructor for Naish Hawaii in Kailua) do a flip with the
sort of kite rotation you describe. Total accident, though.
He was riding a Naish AR3.5 in four-line mode. I think it
turned more quickly than he was expecting.

KW
www.kenwinner.com

I don't mean to denigrate the skills of the people pushing the envelope
of what can be done on a kiteboard. I applaud them all and I would be
happy to just planing along on the same bit of water as them, let alone
attempting spins and loops.

But I do think we haven't begun to explore the potential of what can be
done on a kiteboard. Most sports seem to take 10-15 years of popular
development before people start thinking outside the square of what
went before. I can't wait to see maneuvers that are pure kitesurf. I
suspect people will learn to be comforable with what we currently
consider to be out of control and then they'll go nuts. I'm hoping
someone will come back with tales of their outside orbits and pendulum
spirals and nose first reverse landings and toe-side back flip gybes.
Perhaps Des Walsh will think that if I do my spin and tug the bar just
so I can do the spinny thing just in the power zone in complete control.

Greg
BTW Nice video. I hope someone produces a foil version soon.

"ken winner" <k-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=7528
> From: <Greg.Walsh@...>
> > In the meantime, how about  tricks where the pilot does a
> rotation (either
> > a spin or a flip) and flies the kite through the same
> rotation. Tight
> > lines, no twists and powered up the whole way through.
>
>
> Greg,
>
> You have high standards. Last July I saw Dez Walsh
> (instructor for Naish Hawaii in Kailua) do a flip with the
> sort of kite rotation you describe. Total accident, though.
> He was riding a Naish AR3.5 in four-line mode. I think it
> turned more quickly than he was expecting.
>
> KW
> www.kenwinner.com
>
>
>

I noticed Ronald's and others messages about the C-Quads. When I was
talking to Cory about his kiteski kites, he said you reel-em in, throw
them in the air and then let them out. Would a C-Quad work this way
too? or are they dead in the Water. I haven't seen one, so I don't know
what would fill up with water.

Just Wondering, Steve

At 06:20 PM 12/1/99 -0700, you wrote:

>Buggiers decided, long ago, that deadman, not "quick" (read: active")
>releases were necessary, to protect life and limbs (not necessarily
>your own...) And yet, I've not seen even one post relating to this.
>There are workable deadman releases for bars, quad handles, even quad
>bars. These release the line when you *stop* doing something, not
>when you *start* doing it. Why does no one talk about these?

I haven't seen any pictures of buggiers using deadman realeases for a long
time - since two liners went the way of the dodo - though there are a
couple of designs for 4 line dead realease handles out there (none in
production that I know of). When buggiers were using two line kites they
needed to steer the kite a lot so keeping hands on handles wasn't such a
stretch.

There seem to be a few factors contributing to their non-use. A minor
reason is complexity, but it seems that some people here are using active
realeases that are pretty close to the same complexity (which isn't much,
really, unless you're comparing it to handles (or bars) with no moving
parts). If the realease lets go the whole kit falls apart, and with the PL
2 line release handles the kite basically flies away with the lines. It's
probably an even bigger problem for KSing as it would be tough to cover the
distance between you and the fallen kite faster than it blows away from
you. You could certainly say that it's worth losing a kite to save your
life, but there's also the issue of your kite being your ticket back to
land. A leash could solve that for most kites, though. If you lose the kite
you could be putting yourself in danger that way, too. The biggest problem
is that with the releases I've seen you can't take your hands off either of
the handles or the mechanism "trips" and the kite falls. For buggying you
could go all day without letting go of the handles if you really wanted to,
but with the current most popular setup (windsurf-like seat harness) most
people take one or both hands off the handles very frequently, except maybe
when racing on a small course. A lot of my cruising time is spent with one
hand on the axle just inside the leward wheel and the other hand steering
the kite. When kitesurfing I can't imagine starting from anything deeper
than 3' or so without being able to take at least one hand off the handles
to position the board. Getting the board leash on requires taking both
hands off, unless you have a helper. Also, I think Ken previously mentioned
that it can be tough to get any release reset without accidentally
launching the kite.

I'm not saying it can't be done - maybe a system could be designed with
some sort of thumb activated lock that would disable the mechanism on each
handle while fiddling with the leash or board, then enable it again when
you can keep both hands on the grips. But I don't think you could solve the
problem just by using the existing products.

>Before you start with the "I'm too macho for my shirt" responses,
>consider what a death or two will do to our sport--to beach access,
>to expensive licensing requirements and stifling equipment laws,
>etc., etc.

A real macho man wouldn't care about that stuff! :)

Mark Frasier

At 10:16 PM 12/1/99 -0800, you wrote:
>I noticed Ronald's and others messages about the C-Quads. When I was
>talking to Cory about his kiteski kites, he said you reel-em in, throw
>them in the air and then let them out. Would a C-Quad work this way
>too? or are they dead in the Water. I haven't seen one, so I don't know
>what would fill up with water.

There's nothing that would fill up with water, but it seems there is some
difficulty in getting a reelbar to work with a 4 line kite (is anyone doing
it successfully?). Basically I think if you completely dunk a big C Quad
it's a pretty sure thing that you'll have to drag it back to land or
shallow water to get it going again. The good news is that they still fly
well wet so you don't have to let the kite dry out or empty any cells
before you get going again.

Mark Frasier

Antonio, check out http://www.fly-surfing.de and go to their new
instructions page for converting the Mosquito Pro KS from 4-line to 2-line.

	 Let us know how it works out. Simon.


Antonio wrote:-

>I just got my new Mosquito Pro Ks 7,5
>I didn't fly it yet, but one thing got my attention. It's got
cross-bridling!
>Can someone out there explain the advantages of cross-bridling a kite? Is
>it more prone to tangles? This is a 4 line kite, but if I use it with 2
>lines the cross-bridling will make it better/worse?

Hi,

Mark Frasier wrote:

> I haven't seen any pictures of buggiers using deadman realeases for a long
> time - since two liners went the way of the dodo - though there are a
> couple of designs for 4 line dead realease handles out there (none in
> production that I know of). When buggiers were using two line kites they

There used to be a deadman release model for quad lines available in Germany.
It seems they have now ceased production - luckily I own one model. They
basically
release the upper (steering) lines which will depower the kite nearly
completely. Once
the kite has come down, you can then hook the upper lines in again and then
you can continue buggying.
For those who are interested, I once used to have pictures available from these

handles - I hope I can dig them out if someone is interested.

Bernhard

I've used 2 knee boards to kitesurf with there both very different
heres why

the first is a large blow moulded ABS/poly board with 2 retractable
fins this has to be launched form the beach and then get draged into
the water & off you go, you cant water start this board its got too
much volume, keeping it strapped on results in you floating upside
down, which is not very healthy, so that board only gets used at the
big tidal pool on one of our favorite beaches, its ok to learn on
because it will plane so slowly but it does have limits so we stay
inside them

the second board (& the best) is a full on slalom board with neutral
boyancy and this you can water start, it takes some practice but its
quite possable to float upright strapped to the board, we've got to the
point where we can wade out get the board on & water start (ive been
knee boarding for 4 years so i've had some practice floating around
with it )most of the time though it gets beach started, one of the
benifits of surfing in the tidal pool is that you can always launch
going down wind and its only 4 feet deep so no worrys if you ditch it

the next stage & winter project will be a neutral boyancy board,
slightly longer than a usual knee board with less center rocker & a
couple of fin boxes, with such a low c of g we should be able to hold a
largeish fin

when this gets done i'll post some pics, i've got to get some
decorating done first though ;-)

Steve





"steve" <steverit-@...> wrote:
original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/kitesurf/?start=7520
> Read a post recently about Kite surfing w/ knbee boards.  My question
for
> any that do it is how you manage to start?  When I've kneeboarded
behind a
> boat I alsways start on my belly then pull up to knees.  Can't see
how that
> would work with a kite.  Do you start on knees strapped in?  How do
you
> nmanage with one hand.  Would love a complete description.  TIA
>
> Steve Swartz
> Carson City, Nevada USA
> steverite@...
>
>
> __________________________________________
> NetZero - Defenders of the Free World
> Get your FREE Internet Access and Email at
> http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

<it's amazing to me that not *one* of the responses to this thread
addresses the real danger here--what if Dave had hit his head on his
board tip or bar, been knocked unconscious (even semi-conscious'd do
it), and his "wild ride" had happened in shallow water? A little
water in his lungs would have been the *best case* scenario; a broken
neck'd be more likely.>

he might die.


<There are workable deadman releases for bars, quad handles, even quad
bars. These release the line when you *stop* doing something, not
when you *start* doing it. Why does no one talk about these?>

perhaps because we have never heard of them... please enlighten us .

<Before you start with the "I'm too macho for my shirt" responses,
consider what a death or two will do to our sport--to beach access,
to expensive licensing requirements and stifling equipment laws,
etc., etc.>

I was about to warn you about the dangers of walking to the beach...

really tough i'd like to know more about the deadman concept.
thanks  bob


--
Hi! I'm a shareware signature! Send $5 if you use me, send $10 for manual!
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Kite powered boats, high speed sailing, proas and more. Check it out!

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From: <greg.walsh@...>
> BTW Nice video. I hope someone produces a foil version
soon.

Working on it. Should be out in March.

KW
www.kenwinner.com

Has  this happened to somebody who was wearing a chestharness?
I allways wear one and the kite never dragged me underwater, allthogh I had
several "backside bodybrags", you were talking about.

Selling a new, unused Sky Tiger Hi60 for $450.00 (U.S.). Lines and
handles not included.

Rick
Boca Raton, FL

Antonio,
That should work fine.  Just don't try a drop one line method, or ever fly
with two lines you'll quickly find the only way to depower that kite is at
the brakes.
PEACE&WIND
Josh Young

In a message dated 12/1/99 10:14:12 PM Eastern Standard Time,
alage@... writes:

> I just got my new Mosquito Pro Ks 7,5
>  I didn't fly it yet, but one thing got my attention. It's got
cross-bridling!
>
>  Can someone out there explain the advantages of cross-bridling a kite? Is
>  it more prone to tangles? This is a 4 line kite, but if I use it with 2
>  lines the cross-bridling will make it better/worse?
>  The kite came with a 4 line control bar, with handles attached to the ends
>  swiveling independently, but no provision for any type of quick release. I
>  will try to make one of the many proposed in this list (the one proposed by
>  Michel) some time ago. A wrist velcro with 2 lines going each to a brake
>  leader line. If I let go of the bar the lines will pull the brake lines
>  evenly and, for what I read in this list, this will kill the kite for sure.
>  Is that right??
>
>  Thanks for any help,
>
>  Antonio Lage
>    http://www.flysurfing.com.br
>

> I agree that attaching the loose line with a bungee is
> better than letting it fly. And I agree that this solution
> is the best I've seen so far for dealing with the problem of
> being dragged while  unable to unhook from the harness line.
> An analog to this for four-line parafoils would be nice to
> see.

I got the idea for the extra line from a picture of Sierra Emori on the
Wipika web site.  At first I tried using a regular line, but my 8.5
kite wouldn't completely de-power.  Then I tried attaching it with a
loop past the knot at the end of the lead line, but then it would slide
to far down the line.  I think the bungee it the best solution for me
right now.
>
> However, I have some experience with loose lines and trying
> to reattach lines and loops and rings and things in the
> water and have concluded that I'd rather not if I don't have
> to. Since unhooking from the harness line has never been a
> problem for me, I haven't worried much about it.

I agree, loose lines scare me too!  Do you think I sure avoid trying to
reattach the loose line and just do a self rescue if the quick release
is activated be mistake?

Keith
>
>
>

The Kiteski Kite has a semi rigid carbon/epoxy spar, which makes it possible
to water start.
Check out the water starting pict @
http://www.kiteskiworld.com/gallery/index.html
The spar in the C-Quads looks like they are to flexible to do the same
thing. Expect maybe with heavy wind, 25mph+.
Clarin

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Shugart [mailto:steve_shugart@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 1999 1:17 AM
To: kitesurf@eGroups.com
Subject: [ksurf] Can you relaunch a C-Quad types with a reel?


I noticed Ronald's and others messages about the C-Quads. When I was
talking to Cory about his kiteski kites, he said you reel-em in, throw
them in the air and then let them out. Would a C-Quad work this way
too? or are they dead in the Water. I haven't seen one, so I don't know
what would fill up with water.

Just Wondering, Steve


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I've been told by someone that on big kites (9m²), it might be better to
take a standard one instead of a Wave one. The reason was that the main
reason on those kites to fell in the water was the kite's closing (thats the
translation of the french word, sorry) while at the top of the window. On
the closed ones (Water relaunchables), I was told it's quite difficult to
avoid the kite falling in this conditions. At the opposite, open ones
(standard ones) would reopen most of the time.
And as with those big kites, relaunching seems to be hasardous .....

What do you think of this statement?
I'm interested in any answear.

Olivier ROUSSEAU

>>  A wrist velcro with 2 lines going each to a brake
>>  leader line. If I let go of the bar the lines will pull the brake lines
>>  evenly and, for what I read in this list, this will kill the kite for
sure.
>>  Is that right??
>>
>>  Thanks for any help,
>>
>>  Antonio Lage
>>    http://www.flysurfing.com.br
>>
At 08:43 02-12-99 EST, you wrote:
>Antonio,
>That should work fine.  Just don't try a drop one line method, or ever fly
>with two lines you'll quickly find the only way to depower that kite is at
>the brakes.
>PEACE&WIND
>Josh Young
>

Josh, the brake leader line is about 30 cm, plus the handles another 30 cm.
If I let go of the bar the back lines will be pulled +- 60 cm and the front
lines will go away +- the same amount. Do you think this is enough to fully
depower a 7.5 kite? (hope I was clear in my poor english).
Thanks,
Antonio

P.S. The company website recomends running a line to one brake.I don't want
to argue with then, but I know (by coutless posts in this list) that this
will NOT depower the kite, but most probably put it into a spin...

At 15:34 02-12-99 GMT, you wrote:
>
> I think Michel said 2' on one line and 4' on the other. Still under
>consideration in this group is what to do if you are hooked into a harness,
>in which case a released bar (handles) is not pulled away to activate the
>safety.
>  --David
> ----------
> dphillips@...
>& (512) 347-9411 x 128
> Austin, Texas

Thanks Dave, but for what I understood Michel said 2' and 4' to conpensate
for the lines being attached to left/right hand so the lines would pull the
brakes even. Pulling uneven wouldn't put the kite into a spin? I have zero
experience with 4 line foils and want to practice a lot next weekend.
Thanks again,

Antonio
http://www.flysurfing.com.br

At 16:08 02-12-99 +0100, you wrote:
>I've been told by someone that on big kites (9m²), it might be better to
>take a standard one instead of a Wave one. The reason was that the main
>reason on those kites to fell in the water was the kite's closing (thats the
>translation of the french word, sorry) while at the top of the window. On
>the closed ones (Water relaunchables), I was told it's quite difficult to
>avoid the kite falling in this conditions. At the opposite, open ones
>(standard ones) would reopen most of the time.
>And as with those big kites, relaunching seems to be hasardous .....
>
>What do you think of this statement?
>I'm interested in any answear.
>
>Olivier ROUSSEAU
>

Hi Olivier,
I have 2 Concept Air Wave kites, but smaller (4.8 & 3.0). I do have this
problem of the kite closing at the top of the window, especially in gusty
winds. But think with me...if a open cell foil falls to the water, it's
finish...you have to swimm. With a closed cell foil, even if they fall more
often (I doubt) you at least have a very good chance to relauch it.
But I have no experience with a kite this big..I was just trying to help.

Antonio
http://www.flysurfing.com.br

Used just a few days $550
Can ship
Ian

From: <kmeder@...>
> I agree, loose lines scare me too!  Do you think I sure
avoid trying to
> reattach the loose line and just do a self rescue if the
quick release
> is activated be mistake?

I think it depends on the wind. The stronger the wind, the
less likely I would be to try to reattach the lines.

KW
www.kenwinner.com

Ordinarily I enjoy this magazine, but so far I think this is the most
misleading  article about kiteboarding I've ever read anywhere.  This is a
copy of the post I sent to WindTracks:

Contrary to what Chris Anderson writes:

-It IS "windier up there".  Not only is it a proven fact, but you can
actually feel the power decrease when you fly the kite below sailboard mast
height.

-Kites do NOT "work on the same principle" as turning a bolt with a wrench
instead of your fingers.  Turning a bolt with a piece of string would be a
closer analogy, which obviously doesn't work.
The light wind advantage given by the kite's line length is simply due to
airspeed.  The kite can move faster, independent of the board, thereby
creating more power due to its higher airspeed (power is proportional to the
square of the velocity - double the speed, quadruple the power).

-I doubt that even just his 3.5 kite weighs only "about a pound and a half",
let alone including his lines and bar, since a 3.0 Naish kite weighs over
twice that without the lines or bar.  His "6 foot board" probably doesn't
weigh "about 6 pounds" either, or "jumping 10 to 40 feet" would at least
cause big heel dents, if not complete breakage, since my 7' Naish board
weighs over twice that too.

-Since it's over $900 for a new Wipika 5.0 kite only (with lines, bar & tax),
he must have purchased his used, if he got it complete with a board "for
about $1000".  He should compare that to used sailboard gear when he "takes
that same money to a windsurfing shop and might be about halfway there".

-Even "without an expensive control bar", you do NOT "need the help of an
extra person to get the kite in the air" any more than you need help to
remove the mast from a sailboard sail.  It's nice, but definitely not needed.

-Kites are NOT "very fragile".  Unlike a sailboard sail, small tears don't
instantly extend to the nearest seam, you can step on the material without
damage, & even crash in the surf without worrying about breaking a mast or
battens.

-You CAN let go of the bar without "driving to the kite shop for a new kite".

-Board sailors need NOT necessarily "fear the kite" or "go upwind or jibe and
go the other way".  Most of us are actually in fairly good control of our
kites most of the time.

In response to his diatribe about the difficulty of learning*:
I'd been boardsailing a few YEARS before I could stay upwind on a shortboard,
& then another couple before I could jibe.  Unlike boardsailing, I was able
to increase my kite flying skills without the board, even when there wasn't
enough wind to USE the board (let alone to windsurf).  After about 20 hours
of that, once I got on the kiteboard it only took me five DAYS to learn how
to stay upwind, & then three TRIES to learn to jibe.  Maybe my experience was
not typical, but I'm sure it's not that rare either.

Tom

*"Kiting is harder to learn than windsurfing."  "I windsurfed for 15 years,
and there wasn't much I couldn't do on a board. While learning to kite, I
worked three to four hours a day, three to four days a week for a month or so
before I could ever get back to my car.  And that was in the Gorge, where
there's strong current to help you out.  For the average citizen windsurfer,
you're going to have to invest quite a bit of time to become proficient
enough to stay upwind with a kite. It's harder to learn."

>though there are a
>couple of designs for 4 line dead realease handles out there (none in
>production that I know of).

There are hundreds of hand-built 4-line deadman handles in the field.
These are no more difficult to build than bars, or quality
non-release handles, or quick releases. No, you can't buy one down at
the local Thrash and Crash, but you guys are pioneers, aren't you?
You keep saying so... I have a set of Peter Lynn 4-line deadman
handles--they release the front lines completely, or can be fitted
with leashes. They are (or were) most certainly in production.

>If the realease lets go the whole kit falls apart, and with the PL
>2 line release handles the kite basically flies away with the lines.

This is done with buggies due to the crowded conditions many buggiers
face. Buggies rarely use bars, for the same reason. We've already
covered the need for leashes for kitesailing, there's no need to
re-hash that. A useful deadman would most certainly use a leash.

>The biggest problem
>is that with the releases I've seen you can't take your hands off either of
>the handles or the mechanism "trips" and the kite falls.

Every sportsman has to make a value judgement somewhere; will you
automate your equipment, allowing "hands off" flying, or will you,
now and then, let your equipment know you are still conscious and
engaged? People have heart attacks in autopilot-controlled airplanes,
too, which merrily continue on for thousands of miles, endangering
all they fly over.

It is not difficult to devise a deadman bar, using, for instance, a
trigger line depressed by either hand, which will remain engaged at
all times, so long as either hand holds it. Only a few ounces of
pressure will depress the line.  Similarly, a deadman bar can be
built which has a trigger-leash attached to one hand, or your body
(like a jet ski's leash). This will trigger the release if the hand
moves more than the leash's length away from the bar.

There are some conceptual sketches, including the above, also one
capable of carrying very large forces (for kiteboat use), at:
http://www.kfs.org/kites/kitesail/handles.html  Note that these
aren't shipping systems, only conceptual sketches. Note also that
it's not a "commercial" web page, only a dump, for sketches.

>maybe a system could be designed with
>some sort of thumb activated lock that would disable the mechanism on each
>handle while fiddling with the leash or board, then enable it again when
>you can keep both hands on the grips.

Nope. We've already established that you're likeliest to get dumped
the moment you take your attention away, to fiddle with equipment.
"Shutting off" the safety equipment at this time is
counter-productive.

>But I don't think you could solve the
>problem just by using the existing products.

No, you can't. You have to invent something new. What a concept...  :-)

Dave Culp

Please contact the vendor directly via e-mail.

Do not just the reply button!

Thanks
Robin

From: <KiteBoard@...>
> Ordinarily I enjoy this magazine, but so far I think this
is the most
> misleading  article about kiteboarding I've ever read
anywhere.  This is a
> copy of the post I sent to WindTracks:

Amen.

KW
www.kenwinner.com

Not if you have a really good instructor!!! A week to learn the kite and a week
to learn to point. Windsurfers will pick up the jibe and the pointing quicker.
Come down to  Bellmont the learning curve is quicker less gusty winds and way
bigger shore line and beach.

KiteBoard@... wrote:

>  For the average citizen windsurfer,
> you're going to have to invest quite a bit of time to become proficient
> enough to stay upwind with a kite. It's harder to learn."
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault
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It's been awhile since I posted this question.  The responses I got were
pretty consistent in advocating knots as the preferrred standard of
measurement.  Any objections to using knots as the standard on this list?
It could save us all the effort of doing conversions.

Steve Swartz
Carson City, Nevada USA
steverite@...


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