Hi David

I have answered your post just because it was the top one in the digest I
just received, but also because you say that every instructor teaches to
park at zenith in Cabarete!
I thought the IKO was based there, and no IKO instructor would ever teach
you to park youur kite at zenith?

If you are referring to kites that auto zenith like the arc, it is a very
dangerous practice.
I sent Mel a get well message privately, and I am sure he will elaborate
more when he is in less pain. As far as I can tell auto zenith had nothing
to do with Mels accident, but more from persisting in riding in what he has
often described as the gusty beach from kitehell, landing unassisted, and
some bad luck.

Gusty winds kill kiters, look at all the nasty injuries and deaths in Ricks
journal of carnage, I hope Mel can return to kiting and that he finds a
better place to kite.
If the wind is gusting more than 5 knots there is a strong possibility of
lofting, especially with more experienced riders who are carrying as much
kite as possible.
Just because an arc kite, including the new g-arc feels like it handles
gusts better than inflatos ( I would not know, others have said this) does
not mean this kite will be less prone to lofting riders. It may lull people
into a false sense of security, if they rely on auto zenith too much or too
often?

People have been lofted on Cabarete, I read of one miraculous escape a few
months ago, the experienced rider travelled a couple of hundred meters
inland, but escaped serious injury.

A very common injury of loftings is spinal damage, and broken limbs, things
that can kill you or maim you for a pain filled lifetime and no more kiting.

Cya and
Goodwinds
Steve McCormack
http://www.kitepower.com.au





> Message: 1
>    Date: Fri, 30 May 2003 14:19:04 -0000
>    From: "David Alger" <DAlger@...>
> Subject: Mel's lofting
>
> Goodspeed, Mel!
>
> At Cabarete, Zenith parking is a way of life.  EVERY rider does it.
> EVERY instructor teaches it.  Park you kite and eat a sandwich hooked
> in.  Side on 25 knots.  Palms and hotels be dammed. I don't know what
> to think. - new rider.

Planning to go to  here for a spell- any advice much appreciated

FYI on launching kites at Killer Kabrillo.

While we are waiting for Mel's story:
Since I only used foils for initial training on land,
I talked with a former foil kiter,an accomplished kiter,
that kites with me at Killer Kabrillo,
  he switched a
long time ago to inflatables .

He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.
If you have to 'grab' your board
while doing this to go out and IF
you miss grabbing your board and
have to come back to it -
you will have doubled your problem here.

With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

window.
Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

We may be pulled by a strong gust - but we are going out to sea
and we are no longer being lofted. Or we can land in some water to
break our fall. Then we just grab the board and put it on our feet and go.
Others at other typical locations probably launch similarly.
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hey Scott,

I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch
(interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite for that matter.
People seem to use this method since that's how they learned
that it had to be done. Most arc users learned the downwind
launch off a sanded trailing edge and just stuck with it. Same
with lots of the Blade guys and the bridled foil users that don't fly
with 4 lines. But in any kind of powered conditions, gusty
conditions, or other situations where the winds aloft might be
quite different than ground level winds, I think a downwind
launch right through the power zone is an invitation to
trouble...particularly on a kite which doesn't have a controllable
speed (2-line foil for example).

If you look at Chris Calthrop's website (some K48 site if you
search it) you'll find a nice explanation of how to launch a Blade
without assistance from the edge of the window when flying 2
lines on a bar. I'd say for a foil user this would be a smart thing to
learn and practice.

By the way, Steve McC...I remember a LONG time ago you had a
bad lofting experience with a Mosquito foil that punished your
spine pretty badly. :-(((  Would you mind telling me if that was the
old Mossie open celled buggy kite or the closed cell
waterrelaunchable kite....and was that one of those
overfly-luff-pop open in the middle of the power zone experiences
(I bet every foiler in those days experienced this many times) or
just a simple lofting from a stable kite at zenith that got hit by a
gust? I know it might seem impertinent, but I've been fooling
around doing little experiments on my old Mosquito foils lately (I'll
soon post the results) and I'm curious.

Thanks,

John

--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, LA2WNDSRF@a... wrote:

> He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
> and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
> is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.

> While we are waiting for Mel's story:

It has already been posted on e.g. www.kiteforum.com

<SNIP>

> He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
> and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
> is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.

According to Mel, he launched his kite on the side of the window (a
G-Arc 13) so that was not the cause of this particular accident. I am
btw. always shocked if I see someone launch e.g. a flysurfer. I cannot
understand why people want to put themselves through that experience ;)

> If you have to 'grab' your board
> while doing this to go out and IF
> you miss grabbing your board and
> have to come back to it -
> you will have doubled your problem here.

He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring the
kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
accident.

Grtz,
Dènis

Scott,
Your launch method sounds a little dangerous to me.
Is it correct that your launching while standing in the water with the kite on
the land side rather than the water side?
Isn't that in itself a recipe for disaster in gust conditions?
Or is there something particular about your launch site which requires a launch
with the kite land side rather than water side?
Matt
   snip>

   With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
   we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

   window.
   Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
   ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
   with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
   If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
   over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
   Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

   snip>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

updated gallery with a few new shots. Also, the latest news from
cabarete.

http://www.juliankidd.com

julian

Hi David,

It all depends on your Kite Spot and the conditions around it.
Speak to those that have used the spot for awhile, get to know
what the wind is like when it's hot & cold.

E.g. At our spot we have loads of flat area and we never get lofted
and we too keep our kites at Zenith.

My point really is to know the conditions and be ready for the un-expected.
If you move to a new spot and go away for a kite weekend, speak to those who
kite there and find out what the wind conditions are like.

My respects to Mel....and I am not trying to contradict her warning as I
practice it at my spot, as you never know what can happen.

Try be prepared and kite safe!
Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: David Alger [mailto:DAlger@...]
Sent: 30 May 2003 16:19
To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [ksurf] Mel's lofting


Goodspeed, Mel!

At Cabarete, Zenith parking is a way of life.  EVERY rider does it.
EVERY instructor teaches it.  Park you kite and eat a sandwich hooked
in.  Side on 25 knots.  Palms and hotels be dammed. I don't know what
to think. - new rider.


This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

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ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
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Em: support@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

You can launch your foil from the water...you can side launch your foil...and
yes you can down wind launch your foil if you feel like it.

In light winds with smaller foils I launch downwind...as soon as the wind gets
up - you sand one tip walk 90 deg and do a nice unassisted /assisted side
launch...no different from a lei. Its just a case of thinking about it
sometimes...and its easy to forget in the excitement of wanting to get out on
the water.

It's just foil users get used to the ease of solo launching that they often
don't follow the same practices that lei users are forced to use.

pip pip

andy

-----Original Message-----
From: LA2WNDSRF@... [mailto:LA2WNDSRF@...]
Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2003 17:50
To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurf] Mel's lofting


FYI on launching kites at Killer Kabrillo.

While we are waiting for Mel's story:
Since I only used foils for initial training on land,
I talked with a former foil kiter,an accomplished kiter,
that kites with me at Killer Kabrillo,
  he switched a
long time ago to inflatables .

He states the typical launching of a foil kite - dead downwind
and you have to run to the kite as you launch it-
is a real problem here in our gusty conditions.
If you have to 'grab' your board
while doing this to go out and IF
you miss grabbing your board and
have to come back to it -
you will have doubled your problem here.

With inflatables - we walk out into the surf/water with bar and board.
we launch the self launch kite side angle to the wind at the edge of the wind

window.
Then we carefully fly it over zenith to the water side,
ALL while being in thigh to waist deep water,
with our board in hand or attached by leash already.
If we get lofted while doing this we continue to bring the kite
over head to water side closer to the edge of the window.
Thus diminshing the lofting effect.

We may be pulled by a strong gust - but we are going out to sea
and we are no longer being lofted. Or we can land in some water to
break our fall. Then we just grab the board and put it on our feet and go.
Others at other typical locations probably launch similarly.
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

http://www.KiteHIGH.com
ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
Em: support@...

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Holiday Inn Resort Safaga

Bed & Breakfast

8,-Euro per person in double room
15,-Euro in singel room

Half board (Breakfast and dinner)

14,-Euro per person in double room
24,-Euro in singel room

The prices are for the month of June for bookings resived from today.

For more information please contact
safaga@...

or check out our web page
www.tornadosurf.com

Hope to see you soon
Sara

In a message dated 6/1/2003 2:56:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
flightcorro@... writes:

> Is it correct that your launching while standing in the water with the kite
> on the land side rather than the water side?
> Isn't that in itself a recipe for disaster in gust conditions?
> Or is there something particular about your launch site which requires a
> launch with the kite land side rather than water side?

I'm not sure i understand your question.
But we have a short, small beach that is frequently crowded with unaware
beach walkers.

We could launch with the kite just the opposite, while standing on land with
the kite closer to the water with us launching it, side angle to the wind
window, so that  it is low above the water in the direction we want to go,
however
we then have to run 100ft to the water, risking a depowering of the kite
(lull) and dumping it in the surf OR having to bring it over too high to
maintain
power (and possibly getting lofted over land !).
So it is better for us to bring it over head from land while we are in water
- remember, these are very gusty conditions to launch.
Good luck in imagining this since you can't 'see' what i am talking about.
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:26:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
denis.riedijk@... writes:

> He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
> future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring the
> kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
> accident.
>

I can only take your word for that, having not talked with Mel (I know him as

Tom) since his recovery. He probably had to bring kite to the 'other side' to
power
it up to walk back - that is dangerous.

And that is why we usually launch from water
(as explained in earlier post)
AGAIN-
SO when we have to power up the kite after a lull by bringing it
over to the 'other side', say the 11 oclock postion,
if we get lofted we drop on to water which can give us
more time to bring it back over the water again to the
3 oclock position(non lofting position)
to go out on starboard.
It is hard to explain these things with words, but good luck in understanding
it....

Fortunately most new kites (X2, Rhino 2,etc) don't "hindenberg", but
that can still happen here at Killer Kabrillo.
Because a gust here can disappear in a split second,
dropping your kite OR you from a jump- like a rock.
That is something you have to experience and get a feel for
in order to avoid it. Not a fun lesson to take. Fortunately they are usually
less than 10ft drops into water.
Kinda like the high diver in a Circus Side Show, diving into a bathtub.
Splat.
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Please don't take my word, its best if you read what he wrote exactly
(especially since you are familiar with the spot) Second hand info is
always worse :)

http://www.kiteforum.com/index.php?page=http://www.kiteforum.com/phpbb/v
iewtopic.php?t=10802&navi=1&button=forum

It is the second post.

I have understood from posts of Mel (or Tom indeed) from the past that
the spot is indeed not an easy launch. I am just feeling more lucky with
my beach which is >400 meters wide. Although I have moved now, and still
feel quite uncomfortable with my new beach that is +- 100 meters wide.

No rocks fortunately :)

Grtz,
Dènis

-----Original Message-----
From: LA2WNDSRF@... [mailto:LA2WNDSRF@...]
Sent: maandag 2 juni 2003 18:56
To: kitesurf@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [ksurf] Mel's lofting

In a message dated 6/1/2003 10:26:22 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
denis.riedijk@... writes:

> He did indeed miss his board while going out, and stated the in the
> future he will put his board more downwind. The fact he had to bring
the
> kite to the other side to get back to his board was what caused the
> accident.
>

I can only take your word for that, having not talked with Mel (I know
him as

Tom) since his recovery. He probably had to bring kite to the 'other
side' to
power
it up to walk back - that is dangerous.

And that is why we usually launch from water
(as explained in earlier post)
AGAIN-
SO when we have to power up the kite after a lull by bringing it
over to the 'other side', say the 11 oclock postion,
if we get lofted we drop on to water which can give us
more time to bring it back over the water again to the
3 oclock position(non lofting position)
to go out on starboard.
It is hard to explain these things with words, but good luck in
understanding
it....

Fortunately most new kites (X2, Rhino 2,etc) don't "hindenberg", but
that can still happen here at Killer Kabrillo.
Because a gust here can disappear in a split second,
dropping your kite OR you from a jump- like a rock.
That is something you have to experience and get a feel for
in order to avoid it. Not a fun lesson to take. Fortunately they are
usually
less than 10ft drops into water.
Kinda like the high diver in a Circus Side Show, diving into a bathtub.
Splat.
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing

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ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
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Anyone any experience of teaching really young kids to kitesurf -
I'm talking 6 here. I appreciate all the "adult" safety issues have
to be followed to the letter and I'd also assume two lines only and
no harness loop. And go out early or late when the water's empty! I
also have a feeling that if it's windy enough to go upwind and jump,
then its too windy for kids. However, any hints tips advice etc
appreciated.

Its a bad idea..... To many thing can go wrong you can never controll
the weather.... I wouldent learn any kid to kite surf until he is at
least 12 y....Its just no point to start that early then its much
bettter board sport like skateboard snowboard even wake board where
you could controll things better.....

Give him a stunt kite to learn and forgett about kitboarding for a
couple of years.......




--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stuartdbenson" <stuart.benson@u...>
wrote:
> Anyone any experience of teaching really young kids to kitesurf -
> I'm talking 6 here. I appreciate all the "adult" safety issues have
> to be followed to the letter and I'd also assume two lines only and
> no harness loop. And go out early or late when the water's empty! I
> also have a feeling that if it's windy enough to go upwind and
jump,
> then its too windy for kids. However, any hints tips advice etc
> appreciated.

I launch my foils from downwind and immediately fly them to the side
of the window on the seaward side.

It is best to launch with less inflation, say just enough to form a
bubble along the LE. A fully inflated kite will have too much power
and may require the downwind run or dragging. A partially inflated
foil kite generates very little pull but is very steerable and
controllable.

The kite fully inflates by the time it has reached the side of the
window.

Actually the time a foil becomes a handful is just after you have
landed it. Then you have a fully inflated, fully powered kite sitting
downwind waiting for you to release the brake so it can fly again.
There are some improved systems appearing on the scene but so far LEI
and Arcs definitely have an advantage in this area.

Regards

Greg

im sorry but how qualified are you to make the judge between 6 and 12?
what is the difference?

why dont u get them used to the power zone with stunt kites and then
get them on those little trainer kites.  they are tiny and dont pull
much but i am sure they wood get a 18-20kg kid around without getting
them into too much trouble.

just keep them away from objects and others like you have said and
teach them the main thing to let go if they get scared which i am sure
they will.

it is the future....
just look at the ski slopes, lakes, and beaches.
sure u cant control the weather, but what can you control?


--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "kitesurf73" <kitesurf73@y...> wrote:
> Its a bad idea..... To many thing can go wrong you can never
controll
> the weather.... I wouldent learn any kid to kite surf until he is at
> least 12 y....Its just no point to start that early then its much
> bettter board sport like skateboard snowboard even wake board where
> you could controll things better.....
>
> Give him a stunt kite to learn and forgett about kitboarding for a
> couple of years.......
>
>
>
>
> --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stuartdbenson"
<stuart.benson@u...>
> wrote:
> > Anyone any experience of teaching really young kids to kitesurf -
> > I'm talking 6 here. I appreciate all the "adult" safety issues
have
> > to be followed to the letter and I'd also assume two lines only
and
> > no harness loop. And go out early or late when the water's empty!
I
> > also have a feeling that if it's windy enough to go upwind and
> jump,
> > then its too windy for kids. However, any hints tips advice etc
> > appreciated.

In a message dated 6/2/2003 11:37:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
kitesurf73@... writes:

> Its a bad idea..... To many thing can go wrong you can never controll
> the weather.... I wouldent learn any kid to kite surf until he is at
> least 12 y....Its just no point to start that early then its much
> bettter board sport like skateboard snowboard even wake board where
> you could controll things better.....
>
> Give him a stunt kite to learn and forgett about kitboarding for a
> couple of years.......
>

i agree - My closest analogy is : i've taught many kids how to windsurf over
last 20 years - and it's difficult enough for 11 yrs of age & under to even
handle under 8 mph winds. Fortunately, windsurfing in those conditons, still
supervised closely, is always the best policy & necessary. You can't do that
with
kiteboarding the same way.

As a rule with any new physical activity, It's always best to apply
no pressure to perform at all, just true fun & encouragement. Peer groups are
much more effective and add encouragement for them rather than a one on one,
parent/child situation.

BTW, as you say -
keep it simple and keep it fun to FLY a stunt kite FIRST
and your kid'll appreciate you for it -IF they like kiting.

LET THE KID TELL YOU WHEN HE/SHE WANTS TO KITEBOARD.
Once they crash the stunt kite a few times and get pulled by
it, they'll know what they are up against.

I've seen soooo many parent/child teaching situations go wrong-
(like boyfriend&girlfriend,husband&wife,etc)
SOOO,
since they can't really damage a foil stunt kite - just put them some
place away from others, show them just enough AND THEN LEAVE
THEM ALONE - with their friends or peer group.
Best to  have a friend(s) of theirs help relaunch the kite
and share flying it. A peer will help participate/entertain them better than
a parent.
Just sit back and watch and eventually give encouragement only.
(Usually they get bored though if they crash too many
times. )
good luck & you have fun too !
Scott


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Check it out!  http://www.kste.net

I have been kiting for  3 years ive been snowboarding for 14 years
started sking when i was 4 years old been wakeboarding since the
early 90 s......

And none of thoose sports skiing/snowboarding in a normal
conditions/slope wakeboarding in a lake is compareble to the dangers
that could be involved with kiteboarding...

I just dont se the point of letting a kid kiteboard untill he can
deside for him self wats a dangerous situation etc..The brain of a 6
years is not mature enough to make this desition.....

When there is other simular sports like wake boarding skate boarding
snowboarding...

I cant say  the exact age when its right to kite for a kid i think it
depends on the individual kid but defenetly 6 years is to young....

If you start kiteboarding in you early teens and have done less
dangerous but similar sports there is no absolut no reason why you
couldnt be the future of kite boarding and you might live that long
to......If the talent is there its there....

and about controll yore right i cant controll everything...

But you cant compare letting youre kid ski in a childslope or surf in
30 cm surf.......

I would rather let my 6 years old kid learn how to drive a car then
kitesurf......

Kitesurfing is a pretty tiny sport compared to others but still u
here almost every month/week people getting killed badly hurt cause
of squall bad knowledge or pure stupidity...****How many dies in 10
degress child slope or even get badly hurt******

Kiting is ****** DANGEROUS*****  its an extrem sport doesnt matter
how much you wegiht to be able to go upwind the power is needed is
pretty much for WHAT EVER WEIGHT YOU HAVE IN RELATION TO WHATEVER
KITE YOU USE.........

And to give that power in the hands of 6 years old kid is *****nuts***

And if you dont intend to let the kid go upwind Or your intention is
just to try an getting him use to the water or whatever you are
thinking..... Then wats the point????  Then there is other sports to
let him get us to water or board riding.........

The kite skill he can get on land with a stunt kite in safe light
wind.........

Thanks and by..........


























--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "rohin156" <rohin@a...> wrote:
> im sorry but how qualified are you to make the judge between 6 and
12?
> what is the difference?
>
> why dont u get them used to the power zone with stunt kites and
then
> get them on those little trainer kites.  they are tiny and dont
pull
> much but i am sure they wood get a 18-20kg kid around without
getting
> them into too much trouble.
>
> just keep them away from objects and others like you have said and
> teach them the main thing to let go if they get scared which i am
sure
> they will.
>
> it is the future....
> just look at the ski slopes, lakes, and beaches.
> sure u cant control the weather, but what can you control?
>
>
> --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "kitesurf73" <kitesurf73@y...>
wrote:
> > Its a bad idea..... To many thing can go wrong you can never
> controll
> > the weather.... I wouldent learn any kid to kite surf until he is
at
> > least 12 y....Its just no point to start that early then its much
> > bettter board sport like skateboard snowboard even wake board
where
> > you could controll things better.....
> >
> > Give him a stunt kite to learn and forgett about kitboarding for
a
> > couple of years.......
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "stuartdbenson"
> <stuart.benson@u...>
> > wrote:
> > > Anyone any experience of teaching really young kids to
kitesurf -
> > > I'm talking 6 here. I appreciate all the "adult" safety issues
> have
> > > to be followed to the letter and I'd also assume two lines only
> and
> > > no harness loop. And go out early or late when the water's
empty!
> I
> > > also have a feeling that if it's windy enough to go upwind and
> > jump,
> > > then its too windy for kids. However, any hints tips advice etc
> > > appreciated.

Hi Guys,

as someone who teaches several hundred new comers to kite flying each
year, I will pass on some observations.

Children from 5-8 CAN be taught to fly kites safely (2 line stunt
kites) but they are far slower to teach than anyone else mainly due
to a lack of fine motor skills and a lack of ability to comprehend
concepts.

8-12 year olds are fairly easy to teach as they have some good fine
motor skills and are able to understand concepts such as wind
direction and power. We have had kids this age flying foils and
buggying. I still wouldn't put them near the water if they were mine
though.

12+ about the minimum age I would even consider getting anyone near
the water on a board (bearing in mind kids do kite surf younger than
that) By 12 they have learned some better skills and are more likely
to be able to get themselves out of trouble and enjoy kitesurfing.

Regards

Tim Mellor
Kite House
Australia


--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "kitesurf73" <kitesurf73@y...> wrote:
> I have been kiting for  3 years ive been snowboarding for 14 years
> started sking when i was 4 years old been wakeboarding since the
> early 90 s......
>
> And none of thoose sports skiing/snowboarding in a normal
> conditions/slope wakeboarding in a lake is compareble to the
dangers
> that could be involved with kiteboarding...
>
BIG SNIP

Nice vid, but I do not like the ramp moves. I prefer the moves when they
just jump of the kite and then do all the handle passes, flips and turns...
We don't need the ramp to jump, so why use it ?
Jef

----- Original Message -----
From: "pmenta98" <pmenta@...>
To: <kitesurf@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2003 4:24 AM
Subject: [ksurf] Velocity Games Video


> Check it out!  http://www.kste.net
>
>
> This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
>
> http://www.KiteHIGH.com
> ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
> ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
> Em: support@...
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>

Subject: Re: Mel's lofting

Hey Scott,

I agree with you about the dangers of the dead downwind launch
(interesting term) of a bridled foil or arc or any kite for that matter.
People seem to use this method since that's how they learned
that it had to be done. Most arc users learned the downwind
launch off a sanded trailing edge and just stuck with it. Same
with lots of the Blade guys and the bridled foil users that don't fly
with 4 lines. But in any kind of powered conditions, gusty
conditions, or other situations where the winds aloft might be
quite different than ground level winds, I think a downwind
launch right through the power zone is an invitation to
trouble...particularly on a kite which doesn't have a controllable
speed (2-line foil for example).

If you look at Chris Calthrop's website (some K48 site if you
search it) you'll find a nice explanation of how to launch a Blade
without assistance from the edge of the window when flying 2
lines on a bar. I'd say for a foil user this would be a smart thing to
learn and practice.

By the way, Steve McC...I remember a LONG time ago you had a
bad lofting experience with a Mosquito foil that punished your
spine pretty badly. :-(((  Would you mind telling me if that was the
old Mossie open celled buggy kite or the closed cell
waterrelaunchable kite....and was that one of those
overfly-luff-pop open in the middle of the power zone experiences
(I bet every foiler in those days experienced this many times) or
just a simple lofting from a stable kite at zenith that got hit by a
gust? I know it might seem impertinent, but I've been fooling
around doing little experiments on my old Mosquito foils lately (I'll
soon post the results) and I'm curious.

Thanks,

John

G'day John
It was a 5.5 Mosquito Pro, rigged 4 lines on handles. It was brand new, and
I had done several downwind launches to get the brakes adjusted just how I
wanted them. On that last launch, the wind seemed a bit stronger as I got
dragged forward a few M, as the kite came overhead it picked me up about 6
inches off the beach, and I drifted towards my board which was downwind near
the water.
I beleive it was my complacency with this minor amount of lofting, that lead
to my near death experience that day.
Anyway after drifting off the ground, towards my board and the water for a
few M, I literally was propelled into the sky to approx 30'. I had no
harness on, and was just hanging onto the handles, so had no leash either!
In that instant I was lofted, I looked down, and I clearly remember
thinking,  "shite this is high enough to die", so my natural instinct was to
hang on and look up at the kite to try and fly it down over the water. As I
looked up, the kite did its usual luff (fell forward) and both me and the
kite plummeted to earth.
I was badly winded, but knew straight away that I had broken something in my
back (done it twice before), and felt something was not quite right in my
left knee too.

Windsurfers in the area thought it was funny! A lone begginer eventually
wandered over to where I was lying flat on my back, trying to get my breath
back and asked whether I was ok. I was worried about the kite as I let it go
when I landed, and it was not on the ground down wind of me. Amazingly the
kite was still flying, by itself over the water off to my left, approx 75M
out to sea.!! The windsurfer went to try and get the kite, I crawled to my
kite bag which contained my mobile phone and rang my partner. Then a friend
turned up, and helped get all my gear back.
The most stupid thing I did after this was to drive myself home (heavy
clutched Toyota Landcruiser!), in agony, and then prescribed myself a lot of
resting in the horizontal plane, as the remedy. I never went to a doctor at
all, and it took months before I felt strong enough to kitesurf again. All I
took for it was one course of anti inflams!
During the whole event I never really felt fear, but while resting at home,
the vision of looking down and realising I could have died haunted me every
day, and to a small degree still does. I even considered getting out of
kiting after this accident.
Not sure what a doctor could have done but it has been suggested to me by a
surgeon I saw recently to fix my knee, that he most likely would have been
able to do something if I saw him straight after the accident, who knows
about the spinal injury I received?.
My spinal injurys do give me a bit of trouble now, and I have to be very
careful getting into and out of the water, I think another bad fall and I
will be wheelchair bound.

I'm curious to know what you think you can do with your mossies? The open
celled versions were OK for buggying, but had similar luffing issues to the
water models if you tried to use them for land jumping and dragging.

Cya and
Goodwinds
Steve McCormack
http://www.kitepower.com.au

Does anyone know where i can purchase some good twin tip fins?
preferably perth, but if i have to order so be it.
i just dont see em around, but then i dont go to many shops.

Hey Steve,

Quite a scary story you told. Lucky for you it wasn't way worse.

I have had my mossies (closed cell kitesurf versions) sitting
around for a while, occasionally taking them for a ride on the
water and enjoying using handles and backstrap from time to
time as a change of pace. I've enjoyed them some but they just
don't have the ease of use as a nicely depowering sled...so
they've not been used much. The worst feature to me has been
the instability....the overfly-luff-nosedive-reopen in the middle of
the window-BANG kind of stuff. I was wondering if the instability
might in part be due to the closed cell structure.

I decided to take a chance and try to make my 5.5 more
blade-like. I took a scissors and opened up the leading edge on
all but the 5 most lateral cells at each tip. Amazing improvement.
Super stable. No more luffing. Maneuvers that would have easily
luffed this kite now fail to luff it. I'm sure at some time it will luff,
but I can at least say for SURE it's way more stable than ever
before. Plus it launches easily from downwind or the edge of the
window, and flies well on 2 lines even with the brake bridles
removed.

For a guy like you who has flown countless open celled traction
kites this may be of no surprise, but for me it was really
impressive to see the instant huge improvement in performance
and user-friendliness. I did the same to my 9.4 with the same
results...although this kite requires the brake bridles to remain
on the kite to support the TE when flown with 2 lines. My nephew
has my old waterfoils and we tried this on the 2.4 with great
success, then on the 3.6 with the same results. Brake bridles
were also removed from the waterfoils with no cost in terms of
performance.

Anyway, my old dust-gathering foils are now open celled
nonrelaunchable foils and are lots of fun to fly again....not to say
they are better than anything else but they do fly better as open
celled kites than closed cell with an improvement in stability that
is pretty amazing to me. Plus they pack up quicker, launch
quicker, and won't go flying way downwind if I were to put them
down in the drink.

Now I am interested in going for another experiment....you might
remember a couple of years ago answering my question about
blade stacking....now I am interested in creating a super
powerful light wind machine: the 9.4/5.5 open cell mossie 2-line
stack. I never would have considered this before opening the
leading edges as the kites were too unstable, but now I think it
might work. Only problem is I might have some trouble figuring
out where to poke the stack holes through the 5.5....it looks like
lots of trial and error and ripstop tape might be needed for this
bugger. So I don't know when I'll get around to it....probably when
I have a helper...but I do hope to give it a try one of these days.

Anyway, that's the basic story on my mossie mods thus far. I was
sure hesitant to ruin my 5.5 when I first took the scissors to it, but
I'm really glad I did. Now I have a completely different kind of kite.

John

--- In kitesurf@yahoogroups.com, "Kite Power \(Sydney\)"
<sydney@k...> wrote:

> I'm curious to know what you think you can do with your
mossies? The open
> celled versions were OK for buggying, but had similar luffing
issues to the
> water models if you tried to use them for land jumping and
dragging.

Thanks for the replies to this post (and the similar one on the
kitesurf school site). To clarify, my kid is 6, first got dragged by
a foil stunt kite (which I'd set up on a kitesurf bar) at 3, gave it
up for two years, but has now picked it up incredibly quickly to the
extent he does his own tricks on the beach. Ke can keep it in the
air indefinitely even in 15 mph winds - better than many adults. He
wants to kitesurf (like his daddy!) but I am nervous about it. I
wondered whether anyone else had relevant experience, assuming this
would be enough to deter him. I think the answer is yes, I have got
enough ammo to deter him for a while. To me the big issue is being
able to swim comfortably out of danger, and being old and wise
enough to know what danger is.

I think the general consensus is right; six is too young. What the
actual youngest reasonable age is I don't yet know and anyway it
will vary from child to child. Frankly my experience of the beach is
that there are still many "adults" too young to be doing this
dangerous sport!

To those who have suggested windsurfing, yes but even the kid rigs I
have tried are too heavy for him at the moment. Some people have
suggested wakeboarding; does anyone know how/where to get a
wakeboard small and light enough?

> We don't need the ramp to jump, so why use it ?
> Jef

They're not using the props to jump necessarily, they use them to
perform tricks which can't be done otherwise. I saw Martin do a
backroll-to-blind onto the slider that was unbelievable. Its just
another way to take it to the next level. These guys are so good that
they get bored easily. Putting the slider in the water keeps them
from doing rail slides off the judge's stand.
Kite-on,
GK

>
>
> Goodspeed, Mel!
>
> At Cabarete, Zenith parking is a way of life.  EVERY rider does
it.
> EVERY instructor teaches it.  Park you kite and eat a sandwich
hooked
> in.  Side on 25 knots.  Palms and hotels be dammed. I don't know
what
> to think. - new rider.
>

I for one NEVER fly my kite at zenith, especially at places like
Cabarete. I have seen many riders that do this, and it almost always
ends in a dangerous situation.
On Saturday I was at one of our local spots and the wind was cranking
dead on shore and gusting between 10 and 25 (nice huh?) Our local
instructor was there flying a foil (I won't mention the brand) and he
was continuously flying it straight over head. There was a very crazy
uplift going on right at the waters edge, and his kite kept colapsing
and then reopening right in the power zone. I suggested that he fly
it down near the water to prevent this and he told me that these
foils don't fly like that. I had to hold his harness (as his feet
were off the ground the whole time) and walk him out in the water so
he could put his board on. To make a long story short, his kite ended
up in the trees THREE times that day! I helped him the firat two
times but the last time he was on his own. Each time this happened
there were people straight downwind of him. And remember, this is an
instructor! I just don't get it.
Kite-on,
GK

A way to buy this cheap kites

--- M M <tradeart@...> wrote:
> Sometimes my hotmail gets disabled, so I use this
> one,  don't get confused
>
>
> Dear fellows,
>
>
>
> Status: I have ordered last week.  The guy promised
> to deliver around today, I arranged pick up and
> payment on the spot.  Asked him to contact with my
> man to make the details.....He told my contact that
> I have not made the order clear and wanted advance
> payment again...Suspicious!    I contacted him
> again, found out that he has low and high AR kites,
> so I specified the order!   Now he promised to
> deliver end of this week!......we shall see.
>
> I'm proceeding with the logistics,  have no total
> costs since there are many variables,  like export
> inspection fee, airfare for different places and
> weight ranges, airworthy packaging and even
> debugging for Australia e.g........but I'm on it and
> by the time I get the first 2 kites tested I shall
> know details....
>
>
> From u guys I would appreciate to know how many
> kites you are intending to take for the first order?
>  Other info like below would be also appreciated:
>
> 1)      Name
>
>
> 2)      Shipment address
>
>
> 3)      Short description of yourself, individual
> rider?  School or Kite center?
>
>
> 4)      Number of kitesurfers in the area
>
>
> 5)      Number, size of Kites,  bars,  lines    for
> this trial order
>
>
> 6)      Intentional next order, assuming the kite
> testing  turns out that these kites are good value
> for money?
>
>
>
> So much for today
>
>
> Regards,  Markus
>
> PS.: Please spread the news,  so far I have not
> enough reply's to make the effort worthwhile!




Markus Mayer, Mobile 0086-139-16038801

windsurfing perth has a bunch of cabrinha fibre glass thingies,
airbourne has a bunch of airrush stuff.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rohin Edwards [mailto:rohin@...]
> Sent: Tuesday, 3 June 2003 2:36 PM
> To: Kitesurf (E-mail)
> Subject: [ksurf] FINS
>
>
> Does anyone know where i can purchase some good twin tip
> fins? preferably perth, but if i have to order so be it. i
> just dont see em around, but then i dont go to many shops.
>
>
> This group is sponsored by KiteHIGH.com Kitesurfing
>
http://www.KiteHIGH.com
ph: 1 866 646 7835 Toll Free USA or
ph: 1 808 637 KITE (5483)
Em: support@...

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/