Hi Patrick,

I do like your point about where to draw the line, and I respect your
position. I certainly agree with you on being anti-compulsion, I think
helmet compulsion does a great deal of overall harm when introduced.

I also agree that there are differences between cycling and skating in terms
of injury and protective needs, but this debate was only ever about cycling
given the OP. Of course we're all interested in the skating side too, just
there's almost no data.


Best regards,
Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Patrick Seltsam
Sent: 01 September 2006 21:46
To: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [inline-instruction] "Green" helmets?

My recollection on the disclaimer on helmets is that they are not suitable
for use while operating a motor vehicle. I don't ever recall any helmet
manufacturer suggesting what types of objects I should and should not have
collisions with while using their product.

I am suggesting (without research to cite) that more cycling accidents in
the Netherlands are bike-on-bike, or bike alone, where in North America they
tend to be car-on-bike. I'd also note, that while the Dutch are fit, and
apt to ride fast, there is also much bike congestion in urban areas - which
is apt to increase the number of accidents, yet lowering the speeds at which
they occur, and their severity.

I'd also note that those who ride bikes more, will certainly ride them
better. No doubt a highly skilled cyclist without a helmet is a safer
cyclist than a poorly skilled cyclist with one - however, a highly skilled
cyclist with a helmet should then be expected to be safer than either.

I think it would be very hard to accurately find a statistic that
objectively removes variables and gives a clear picture here, but very easy
to find flawed studies supporting whichever side of the argument you already
decided you were on.

I also would note, with great emphasis - the nature of cycling and the
nature of in-line skating, as well as the accompanying injuries and injury
patterns are TOTALLY different. I'm personally opposed to any compulsory
helmet laws, yet strongly support and encourage helmet use for skating and
cycling....

....That said, there seem to be cultures within each sport that seem safe
and happy without helmets. In skating, it's hard to imagine hormone fueled
13 yr old boys trying to meet 13 yr girls at the local roller rink on Friday
night decked out in full protective gear and helmets. In cycling, I can't
see a pleasant Dutch granny wearing a helmet to pedal off to the local
market on her three-speed...

There's a sort of line, I guess, where helmets DO seem silly - but no one
dares try to say where that line is....

Patrick Seltsam



________________________________

From: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Mike van Erp
Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 12:00 PM
To: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [inline-instruction] "Green" helmets?



Patrick, if I recall correctly, there isn't a single helmet manufacturer who
designs or certifies their bicycle helmets as suitable for protection
against impacts with motor vehicles. I believe nearly every helmet comes
with a specific disclaimer on this subject.

Secondly, there are *numerous* studies that show cycle lanes are not as safe
as you might think, quite often more dangerous than actually cycling on the
road. You might feel safer, but you won't be in reality. Cycle lanes turn
out not to be a good solution to cycling safety, again surprising and
against what might seem to be common sense, but the reasons are obvious once
you do a little research.

Lastly, you'd be very surprised at the cycling speed of many people in the
Netherlands. They are active and cycle a lot, so are fit and fast. As a
certain famous person said, "It's not about the bike".

Best regards,
Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patrick Seltsam
Sent: 01 September 2006 17:15
To: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [inline-instruction] "Green" helmets?

While I certainly can't quantify this, my recollection from visits to the
Netherlands is that a great amount of the cycling there is low speed,
utility cycling, on upright three-speed bikes -- done primarily on bike
lanes separated from motor vehicle traffic by a curb or a median. It is a
very different cycling climate than in North America.

Yes, I'd feel safer cycling without a helmet on a car-free pathway than I
would with a helmet on a busy street.

I'd also suggest that those in the Netherlands who participate in more risky
recreational cycling (racing/training, off-road, etc...) are more apt to
voluntarliy wear helmets while doing those activities.

Patrick Seltsam

________________________________

From: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of Mike van Erp
Sent: Fri 9/1/2006 2:00 AM
To: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [inline-instruction] "Green" helmets?

Hi Helen,

I don't think that cycling can be considered dangerous, even in the USA.
Although more risky than in the UK and the Netherlands, that risk is still
very very small.

I also don't believe helmets are at all essential for cycling. They are
perhaps one of the least effective safety measures that can be taken. Much
much more effective is proper riding technique and road craft, using lights,
etc.

Best regards,
Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of ASINAC@...
<mailto:ASINAC%40aol.com> <mailto:ASINAC%40aol.com>
Sent: 30 August 2006 15:03
To: inline-instruction@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
<mailto:inline-instruction%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [inline-instruction] "Green" helmets?

Hi Mike,
I knew you would get some interesting feed back from the USA about helmets.

One thing about the Internet is, something's that might work in one country,
may not work in another.
Hence, helmets are a must in the USA for 3 reasons, we are an "extreme"
culture, automobiles rule the roads, and last the land of suing.

In all the reports I have read in the USA it has been cyclists that have the
most fatalities, but then there are more cyclists than skaters.

I don't know anywhere in the USA were they have 1,500 wild horses roaming
and sharing the roads with bikers like they do in the New Forest, Hants, UK,
road patience :)

Remember, when one is right, that is all they get to be............ Demi
Moore.
Helen,
Everett, WA. USA
Harrow, Middx. UK

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