Bill,

We'll never agree on this subject but the difference you are missing is body
checking is part of the game. It is legal. So is shooting the puck (where
Pronger got hurt). Mouthguards are a legal part of the equipment.

Fighting however is against the rules - even in the NHL. It is in fact
"cheating" as when you fight you are breaking the rules of the sport. Sanderson
got killed in the act of violating the rules of the sport.

Craig




----- Original Message -----
From: William Underwood
To: hockhist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, January 04, 2009 11:53 AM
Subject: [hockhist] Re:Death on the Ice


Well Craig after Bill Masterson died I sincerely hope that no one ever says
no one is hurt from a body check. Keep in mind it was basically the SAME
THING! Same with players who dies from a stick foul, how many times have
the Last rites been given from them?. Are we going to take hitting out and
stop playing the game with sticks.what about pucks? Chris Pronger's heart
stopped from being hit by one in the chest.please never tell me that shot
blocking can't hurt you! And then there was the kid in Minnesota who chocked
to death on his mouth guard. So I never want to hear someone say that mouth
guards are safe! And then there was poor Cherepanov who thanks to a heart
defect died form pure exertion. So please I never want to hear anyone argue
that long shifts are not dangerous! So if we are going to attack fighting on
this basis we also have to do so about checking, pucks, sticks, and making
sure that no shift is over ten seconds to make the game safe.

It was a tragic accident. I am not making light of it but the point is
Craig it happened in a fight this time but FAR MORE guys have died in the
game from other issues. Hockey is a dangerous game which is why I remember
signing a document for the NCAA that I joked about as an 18 year old that
absolved them of any responsibility for my death as a result of hockey.the
NCAA, incidentally, does not allow fighting so their concern was obviously
not about it! Why do we see disclaimers even made for fans attending a game
about flying pucks? Why does amateur hockey make everyone except the coaches
(stick boys etc) wear helmets on benches in the US in youth hockey? Fights?
Nope, flying pucks are the issue! The NCAA feared that something might
happen like a puck could hit me in the wrong way and kill me or I might
break my neck or spine getting nailed in no man's land, or I could catch an
elbow that could be fatal, or I could have a heart attack or a stroke or a
seizure, I could catch a skate blade in my throat or wrist and die form
bleeding or infection. or I might, yes, hit my head on the ice.

The guy's helmets slipped. It could have happened on a check. If anything
this shows once again that you should always tighten the chin strap, I see
guys all of the time in games with loose straps and yes I have seen helmets
fall off on hits. For a helmet to be effective it has to be secure. As I
recall reports were that his was not.

People DO get hurt fighting but Craig, it happens A LOT LESS than plain old
checking or stick incidents, and in fact I know of more guys who have died
of heart failure in practices or games than in fights Yet do we hear much
from you about all of the guys who's careers ended by a blind side hit or a
spear et al. Nope. Why? Maybe JUST maybe BECAUSE it is SO mundane and common
that you would be so busy at it you would have no time for a day job? Ditto
with the press.they would need a hundred pages to report al of them at all
levels!

All that I know is that I have seen thousands of hockey games, literally
thousands, and a lot of fights. I have worked in many leagues for many teams
and VERY few guys have been lost purely to fighting. On the other hand I
have seen tons of guys finished by the mundane pretty regularly. Injuries,
some fatal, DO happen in ANY walk of life Craig much less dangerous than
hockey! You pick your one fatality from a fight Craig, but I'll take Pronger
and say "I know that people are all for blocking shots but don't tell me it
can't be fatal" as it almost was and in fact his scare was just a short time
after a player had died that way in minor hockey!

Odds are that the manslaughter charge goes no where.we have here a fight
that two players willingly got into, both had proper equipment, there was no
sign of foul play or malice, and death resulted not even from a punch or one
guy keeping it up after the refs tried to stop him. It was no blind attack
but one where a player accidentally hit his head on the ice while wrestling
and his helmet slipped. Do you realize that is plain old horse play this can
happen? How often were you and a friend been wrestling as a kid laughing all
of the time when one falls on top of the other? Sorry Craig but a hockey
fight is a lot more like that than two soldiers in a mortal struggle in a
battle. You like to think of hockey fighters as psychos, most are NOT! In
fact I know two personally who have been "Humanitarians of the Year" in
their leagues. It is just a part of the game. For some guys it is their only
way to stay in it. for others, they enjoy it but not in anymore of a sick
way than that kid that you knew growing up who liked to wrestle. I don't
know ANY who wanted to hurt anybody and they all have a deep respect for
each other. In fact, if you want to see something unique you should see two
of them meet OFF ICE! Now you may think that you would get psycho looks and
blows thrown.WRONG! It is long lost cousin time! They sit and laugh and
talk. I've even seen in free agent camps, guys who fought three times in a
game meet off ice and laughing "you are pretty good". "Nah you got me last
time." I even know of one such camp when there was a tough guy there who
couldn't find a dance partner and a kid that was a college guy that fought
in junior felt bad for him and went up to him BEFORE a game and said "I'll
go with ya." Not in a challenging mean way but more of a "here I'll help you
out" way. Once at another camp I had lunch with 2 ECHL heavyweights on arch
rivals.here these guys were HAVING LUNCH together talking trade. It was as
"matter of fact" as sitting with two contractors talking tools, just a good
natured discussion. Todd Ewen writes kids books, Chris Nilan is GREAT with
children.NOBODY better! Nicky Fotiu have never not had time for a fan. Dave
Brown is a quiet nice guy.

Manslaughter? Well Craig in most worthy cases the VICTIM would say "they
were negligent" if they could. I doubt that we would see that here.most of
these guys would say "hell no, he is a good guy and if anything it was my
fault.I should have grabbed him better etc, it was an accident not his
fault". And asked if you should ban fighting most would say "hell no!" Most
of us say that about even just career ending ones unless somebody when out
of their way to nail you when of course there is a grudge. Accidents
happen.this was an ACCIDENT no more or no less than the shooter who hit
Pronger tried to hurt him, the guy who hit Travis Roy tried to hurt him,
Cherepanov's coach intended to risk his life or they guys who cut
Malarchuks' throat (never tell me that skates can't hurt you)) intended to
do so.

It was an ACCIDENT Craig, a one in a million one just like Pronger catching
that shot right at the right time right on the heart, just like poor
Masterson, just like Berard etc. As for Kypreos's issue.of course it CAN
happen, when did anyone say it can't? But what we have said is that it is
WAY less common than the tons of knee, back shoulder etc injuries that
happen on clean plays that end careers often from cheap shots. I have a bad
shoulder that reminds me of being charged/boarded in no man's land.The fact
is that accidents happen in life but it doesn't mean that something is
innately deadly. Fighting can hurt you but the reality is that it is far
less dangerous than other parts of the game. You have your ONE fighting
fatality but how many fatalities do we have from other issues in the game
PER YEAR?

It was an ACCIDENT, PLAIN AND SIMPLE! I sincerely hope that you will mention
the dangers the next time that a major injury happens from a check, a shot,
an odd twist of the body etc. Come to think of it did you even comment on
Cherepanov? On Pronger's heart stopping? Have you ever written a word on
Masterson? But we have the SAME thing happen in a fight so it is time to
comment even though fighting is not only not a part of the game at most
levels (actually at many where we see many deaths from mundane things at
those levels including helmet straps not being tight and a clean hit not a
fight) and even where it is allowed we only see so many of them (much less
so than say shots that could hit you in the chest or checks that could break
your spine) thus are FAR less likely to harm a player than other things yet
it is time to crusade on this one.Cherpanov was not worthy of crusade I
guess.THAT was just an accident right? But THIS.well THIS is an abomination,
no ACCIDENT here correct? And being that a fight is a situation that you are
consciously involved in (thus actually safer) than say a blind side hit in
no mans land or having a cardiac seizure with no revival equipment after
faulty physical testing put you on the ice with no medication to begin with
is something that is an extremely dangerous issue? One that is worthy of
comment more than say a pro league with no defibs in the building and no
ambulance available?

This is a sad thing, a terrible ACCIDENT, but you know what, its very victim
seemingly was a guy who apparently dropped the gloves a fair bit and would
probably NOT want his opponent in the klink or folks like you saying "see I
told you it deadly". In fact he sounds like someone who would have said "it
was an accident." So would most of the world. I nor have I ever heard anyone
never say that you can't get hurt in a fight. Anyone knows that you can but
I would say that you can get hurt in hockey in general, are FAR more likely
to BE hurt in other ways and WAY more likely to be SERIOUSLY hurt by other
means .I have seen FAR more BAD injuries from the game outside of
fighting.come to think of it my own body is a veritable road map of it.bad
shoulder, bad knee, bad cheek bone, bad finger, and nary a one from Yes it
can happen Craig but it was an accident and this game that is LOADED with
potential accidents! It isn't fighting that makes hockey dangerous and
fighting is Far from the most dangerous aspect. And if we are to argue that
"you can be killed from fighting" we can also argue that you can be killed
forma check, over exertion, a high stick, an elbow, a flying puck or being
clipped by a skate blade. And it is not the only sport where these things
can happen, how many deaths are there in football in a year? Even good old
non violent baseball, we saw a third base coach die just last year after
being struck in the head by a line drive. Sure you can be hurt in a fight
but in the end it is not even close to the most dangerous much less deadly
aspects of the game.

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