hockey-databank : Messages : 1-30 of 133

>Is this what's bothering you? That this initiative will draw people
>away from hockeydb and thereby cause loss of income for you?

No, I'm concerned that since this data is being advertised as "open source", that means that the next entrepreneur would go to hockey-databank, download all the data (much of it pulled from hockeydb), and set up "hockeyd-c", which would be just like hockeydb. That person could then put his effort into other areas because he will be piggybacking on the effort I expended making this data available.

I'd have no issue if there was a non-commercial disclaimer, nor would I use the data here to augment hockeydb.com.

Ralph

#29

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 6:55 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

dsreyn

Offline

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
>
> I'm obviously trying to protect my self-interests here. I have no
> problem whatsoever with people using data from hockeydb.com personally,
> or to further their research, particularly when it comes in the form of
> value-added (I don't consider the ability to subtotal "value-added", by
> the way, because I was talking in terms adding additional information,
> not just user interface usability). My main concern is competition
> derived directly from my own work.

Let's be clear on one point - I freely admit that I did not type
everything in from scratch, but this database was *not* derived from
hockeydb.com.  The primary sources used were:

* The Hockey Research Association:  NHL 1917-18 - 1976-77, 1982-83,
1984-85, 1988-89 - 1998-99; team special teams, 1962-63 - 2000-01; all
WHA seasons
* The Hockey Summary Project:  1977-78 - 1979-80
* USA Today:  1999-2000 - 2005-06
* North American Pro Hockey (Tom King's site):  1983-84, 1985-86 - 1987-88
* Recent team special teams statistics (2001-02 - present) were
obtained from ESPN.com

This left a number of gaps (certain statistics missing from various
years), which were then filled in by hand from published sources.  I
primarily used hockeydb.com as a convenient way of double checking
problems - for example, when team totals didn't add up, it was a
convenient way to determine if a player / season had been omitted.

As far as "value added" is concerned - whether or not you see the
value in the ability to "subtotal", I think a number of people may
find it very useful.  As far as "adding additional information" is
concerned - have you actually looked at the database?  Because if you
do, you'll see that it includes power play goals, shorthanded goals,
shots taken, +/-, etc. - unless I'm mistaken, NONE of this is
available at hockeydb.com.

Doug

#28

From: "dgoethe" <dgoethe@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

dgoethe

Offline

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:

>
> It sounds to me that you want to enjoy the benefit of the substantial
> work that I have done while simultaneously taking away any benefit that
> I may able to derive from that work. That's awfully one-sided of you.
>

Is this what's bothering you? That this initiative will draw people
away from hockeydb and thereby cause loss of income for you?

I certainly hope not, but I see these two things as two separate
usergroups. This whole database is for people who simply can't fulfill
their need though HockeyDb.. if they would, this database would never
have appeared.

Like I've said before, hockeydb is a great site.. if I want to quickly
look up a certain player it's the first place I go to. But if I want
to run my own queries, where do I go? Now I can go here.

However, my friend, who's only interested in finding individual
players' stats, he "only" needs HockeyDb. I've used citations for only
because I don't mean to belittle a great site..

/Daniel

#27

From: <slater@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 5:55 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fantastic

ralphslate

Offline

>I gave some consideration to adding some copyright language, but
>decided the fewer restrictions, the better. I'm not 100% convinced
>that was the correct decision, so perhaps further discussion of this
>point would be useful.

I'm obviously trying to protect my self-interests here. I have no problem whatsoever with people using data from hockeydb.com personally, or to further their research, particularly when it comes in the form of value-added (I don't consider the ability to subtotal "value-added", by the way, because I was talking in terms adding additional information, not just user interface usability). My main concern is competition derived directly from my own work.

I have not made it easy to perform such "analysis" queries directly from hockeydb.com because of the possibility of someone -- perhaps ESPN or the Sporting News, perhaps some entrepreneur -- downloading the entire database and using it, and also because such queries are often resource-intensive.

I know I have little _legal_ ground to stand on, but I'm just asking for consideration. I've put a lot of time into my project. "Open-sourcing" my work in a way that would lead to an inability on my part to see any financial benefits from that work will, quite honestly, result in me not being motivated at all to continue to spend my non-day-job hours continuing to add to hockeydb.com. I have never been a parasite with my work, subsuming someone else's work in a way that destroys them. I'm asking that people don't do this to me.

I remember when Scott Adams, of Dilbert fame, quit his job at Bell Labs. He said that the comic strip was becoming a distraction to him. I feel the same way. I would love no more than to be able to work at hockeydb.com as my "day job". As it is, I spend maybe 10-20 hours a week adding to it -- but I have to spend another 40 hours at my day job. I have a house and a family now, and hockeydb.com is definitely lower on my priority list than those items.

However, I can't contain my passion for the site, so as it expands it is affecting my work performance. There will come a time when I will need to choose -- do I want to work a day job, or do I want to work hockeydb.com. Since my primary needs are shelter and family, whichever path offers me the best option will prevail. If hockeydb.com can't offer me what I need to support a house and family, then it simply will have to go.

Ralph Slate
http://www.hockeydb.com

#26

From: <slater@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 5:40 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fantastic

ralphslate

Offline

>The last thing I would think anyone would want to do is to restrict people from
>making fantastic products that we all might enjoy when the data cannot be
>copyrighted in the first place. It is interesting that in one of your messages,
>you cite Frank Polnaczek's unwillingness to share vital WHA information and in
>the very next, you suggest something that would have the effect of ensuring no
>one will be able to make a commercial site like yours with this data. I can see
>why you might not find added value to this project, but exactly whose interests
>are you attempting to protect by suggesting that licensing restrictions be
>placed in it?
>
>
>What would add value is if you would upload the wonderful tables that you have
>created. But I'm guessing that you will side with Polnaczek's unfortunate view
>about sharing on that one. Not everyone "get's" open-source nor is always
>apparent on day #1 what wonderful tools will come about because of such a
>project's openess.

Sorry, I hit "send" too early.

Let me restate my original thought. It sounds like you want to enjoy the benefit of the substantial work -- sourcing, compiling, cleansing, linking -- that I, and others, have performed while also simultaneously taking away any benefit that I, or others, might be able to derive from it by directly competing with it. That's awfully selfish.

I'm all for competition. It makes me better as a person, and it makes hockeydb.com stronger. But you are proposing that you use work that I am currently still performing to directly compete against me. That's why I couched this as "value added" -- you aren't adding any value if you're just reproducing what I've done in a way that undermines me, and it makes me a sucker to boot.

I begrudge Frank Polnaczek for not allowing people access to data that he is the sole possessor of. But if he published a set of WHA gamesheets electronically on CD, I would not stand up, scream "data wants to be free" and rip the stuff and put it on hockeydb.com, nor would I use any of his published data to do anything but correct what was published by the league.

I don't know if you've noticed this, but I have NOT ripped data from Total Hockey/legendsofhockey.net (same data). I have NOT ripped data from ePenaltybox.com (Morey Holzman's research). I have NOT ripped data from the SIHR website. I have NOT ripped data from Tom Picard/King's website (ottawavalleyonline). I have NOT ripped data from Eurohockey.net. I have never tried to guilt anyone who has performed research to give it to me so I could include it. I have chosen instead to do the work to compile that data by hand from original sources, so that the data is not single-sourced. Yes, it takes more time, but it's how I want to operate.

I realize there is no "sweat of brow" provision in US copyright code, but I have always operated under a philosophy that I will not use as a sole source a competitor's work.

You're offering a sucker's deal. "Give us everything, and also give up everything in return". How's about this deal -- why don't you guys research everything that is NOT available on hockeydb.com and then open-source it so that _I_ can add it to my site without doing any of the work? I doubt you'd accept that as the goal of hockey-databank, would you?

I have never subscribed to the theory of so many SIHR members, which is to hoard data, keep it unavailable, and then make secret deals to share it under the provision that it can be shared with no one else. I am not holding back any set of data under subscription or pay services. What you see is what I have, and I continue to work to improve the site, adding more and more information on a daily basis. My site is friendly and easy to use. The only "restriction" is that I'm not making the data easily available to others so they can set up sites that will compete with mine.

However, you have confirmed to me that hockey-databank doesn't really have any altruistic goal in mind; it is being set up so that some can profit directly on the backs of others, with no value-added to the data, just someone's ability to display it differently (which WOULD be copyrightable).

Open source might work when everyone is on equal footings, but when most people are going to freeload on the backs of a few, all incentive goes away. I can understand why the SIHR attitude evolved the way it did. I never created hockeydb.com as a business venture, but the fact that it has evolved into one means that I am able to acquire items and also subscribe to services that that allow me to move research forward, and to devote my time to doing so. Take that away and hockeydb.com will end up a dead project.

Ralph Slate
http://www.hockeydb.com

#25

From: "dgoethe" <dgoethe@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 4:11 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

dgoethe

Offline

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
>
> >A question, are you considering adding draftinformation to the
> >Master-file as well? Would be a nice complement and the information
is
> >readily available at hockeydb (amongst other sites).
>
> I'd like to ask a question; what is the goal of hockey-databank? If
it
> is simply to "free" or "open source" the information on hockeydb.com
or
> other online sources, I don't see the "value added" in that.
>
> Ralph Slate
> http://www.hockeydb.com
>

For me, personally, I see this is a one stop shop. I'd like to run my
own comparisons, see top stats for an entire year, compare number one
draftpicks whatever.. and I'd like the statistics in a database format
so that I have complete flexibility.

Lahman's database lets me do this for baseball, and yes, from my point
of view it's for "research" only and for personal use.

I use HockeyDb extensively, but one thing I miss from there is
individual shots-stats (for example).. with an "offline" database I
increase my flexibility for my own interests. With this said, please
don't think I don't appreciate the hockeydb-site.. It's a fantastic
resource as well.

/Daniel

#24

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 4:59 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

dsreyn

Offline

The goal is to provide data in a format that can be used to run
queries, aid in research, etc.  For example, someone might want to
make a list of players who have had 300 career goals without having a
30 goal season, or the top Boston Bruins leaders in assists, or
defencemen who have had 20 goal seasons, or whatever.  As far as I
know, these queries can not be done at hockeydb.com or any other web
site, and they certainly can't be done with printed sources.  Is there
value added here?  I certainly think so.

A second goal is to make data available in a form that is as
historically accurate as possible.  Printed sources inevitably contain
errors - and this database undoubtedly does as well - but it's much
easier to correct a database and issue a new release than to put out a
new edition of Total Hockey.

I gave some consideration to adding some copyright language, but
decided the fewer restrictions, the better.  I'm not 100% convinced
that was the correct decision, so perhaps further discussion of this
point would be useful.

Doug

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
>
> I'd like to ask a question; what is the goal of hockey-databank? If it
> is simply to "free" or "open source" the information on hockeydb.com or
> other online sources, I don't see the "value added" in that.
>
> You'll note that the Lahman baseball database has the following language
> on it:
>
> "This database is copyright 1996-2006 by Sean Lahman. A license is
> granted
> for individual use for research purposes. It may not be re-distributed
> without permission. Any commercial use, or other dissemination of the
> database in part or in whole is prohibited. Use of this database
> constitutes acceptance of these terms."
>
> Shouldn't this project have similar language?
>
> Ralph Slate
> http://www.hockeydb.com

#23

From: <slater@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 4:48 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Fantastic

ralphslate

Offline

>And you'll note that the Baseball-Databank does not
>have such restrictive language:
>http://www.baseball-databank.org/purpose.txt
>
>The last thing I would think anyone would want to do is to restrict people from
>making fantastic products that we all might enjoy when the data cannot be
>copyrighted in the first place. It is interesting that in one of your messages,
>you cite Frank Polnaczek's unwillingness to share vital WHA information and in
>the very next, you suggest something that would have the effect of ensuring no
>one will be able to make a commercial site like yours with this data. I can see
>why you might not find added value to this project, but exactly whose interests
>are you attempting to protect by suggesting that licensing restrictions be
>placed in it?
>
>
>What would add value is if you would upload the wonderful tables that you have
>created. But I'm guessing that you will side with Polnaczek's unfortunate view
>about sharing on that one. Not everyone "get's" open-source nor is always
>apparent on day #1 what wonderful tools will come about because of such a
>project's openess.

It sounds to me that you want to enjoy the benefit of the substantial work that I have done while simultaneously taking away any benefit that I may able to derive from that work. That's awfully one-sided of you.

#22

From: "hockeyphan" <hockeyphan@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 3:11 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

hockeyphan

Offline

And you'll note that the Baseball-Databank does not have such restrictive language:
http://www.baseball-databank.org/purpose.txt

The last thing I would think anyone would want to do is to restrict people from making fantastic products that we all might enjoy when the data cannot be copyrighted in the first place. It is interesting that in one of your messages, you cite Frank Polnaczek's unwillingness to share vital WHA information and in the very next, you suggest something that would have the effect of ensuring no one will be able to make a commercial site like yours with this data. I can see why you might not find added value to this project, but exactly whose interests are you attempting to protect by suggesting that licensing restrictions be placed in it?

What would add value is if you would upload the wonderful tables that you have created. But I'm guessing that you will side with Polnaczek's unfortunate view about sharing on that one. Not everyone "get's" open-source nor is always apparent on day #1 what wonderful tools will come about because of such a project's openess.
--
Henry

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, <slater@...> wrote:
>
> >A question, are you considering adding draftinformation to the
> >Master-file as well? Would be a nice complement and the information is
> >readily available at hockeydb (amongst other sites).
>
> I'd like to ask a question; what is the goal of hockey-databank? If it
> is simply to "free" or "open source" the information on hockeydb.com or
> other online sources, I don't see the "value added" in that.
>
> You'll note that the Lahman baseball database has the following language
> on it:
>
> "This database is copyright 1996-2006 by Sean Lahman. A license is
> granted
> for individual use for research purposes. It may not be re-distributed
> without permission. Any commercial use, or other dissemination of the
> database in part or in whole is prohibited. Use of this database
> constitutes acceptance of these terms."
>
> Shouldn't this project have similar language?
>
> Ralph Slate
> http://www.hockeydb.com
>

#21

From: <slater@...>
Date: Thu Feb 1, 2007 2:23 pm
Subject: Re: Fantastic

ralphslate

Offline

>A question, are you considering adding draftinformation to the
>Master-file as well? Would be a nice complement and the information is
>readily available at hockeydb (amongst other sites).

I'd like to ask a question; what is the goal of hockey-databank? If it is simply to "free" or "open source" the information on hockeydb.com or other online sources, I don't see the "value added" in that.

You'll note that the Lahman baseball database has the following language on it:

"This database is copyright 1996-2006 by Sean Lahman. A license is granted
for individual use for research purposes. It may not be re-distributed
without permission. Any commercial use, or other dissemination of the
database in part or in whole is prohibited. Use of this database
constitutes acceptance of these terms."

Shouldn't this project have similar language?

Ralph Slate
http://www.hockeydb.com

#20

From: "dgoethe" <dgoethe@...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 10:39 pm
Subject: Fantastic

dgoethe

Offline

Actually, fantastic doesn't even start to cover this. Wonderful work
guys. I play a lot of table-top boardgames and something like this
will make creating "old seasons" so much easier.

Just like others, I was amazed by how much work was already done.

A question, are you considering adding draftinformation to the
Master-file as well? Would be a nice complement and the information is
readily available at hockeydb (amongst other sites).

This isn't just a question though, I'm also willing to help.

/Daniel

#19

From: <slater@...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 5:01 pm
Subject: Re: Re: Randy Andreachuk

ralphslate

Offline

>So I guess the question then becomes, which source
>do we believe
>(since none of them are infallible)?

I included Andreachuk on hockeydb.com because I believed the source more rather than less. Since then I have tried to research him, and while I haven't found anything definitive, I think it is at least plausible that he saw some action.

From the Winnipeg Free press, I learned the following:

In the 74-75 season Andreachuk was in training camp with the Jets. He suffered a broken wrist on October 1, sidelining him for the start of the season.

He is listed on a Jet's team roster (not a game roster) on Oct 11, 1974, so he was still with the team.

He is shown in a photo layout of the Jets on Oct 18, 1974.

It was mentioned that he was still out with a broken wrist on October 25, 1974; he did not make a road trip to Toronto.

I couldn't find any other mention of him in 1974.

On January 17, 1975, the paper reported that "The Jets announced
today that Randy Andreachuk, another product of the Western Canada junior circuit, has been recalled from the Roanoke club and is expected to be in
the lineup Sunday night at the Arena when the Winnipeg team meets Cleveland Crusaders in a World Hockey Association game."

I checked the article from that game, but he was not mentioned as having either played or sitting out. However, the news at that time centered around the fact that Rudy Pilous had stopped coaching the team from the bench (he remained with the team as GM), and the Jets were playing coachless, with perhaps Bobby Hull serving the function informally, and that everyone seemed fine with that arrangement.

Finally, on April 1, 1975, the paper reported that "Ron (Bam Bam) Ashton
and Randy Andreachuk are back from Roanoke, working out with the team and keeping their fingers crossed that Rudy Pilous will give them some ice
time."

So nothing definitive that he played, although he was certainly called up twice during the season, and was with the team at the start of the season too.

The 1975-76 WHL guide, in their alumni section, did in fact report that he had played 2 games for Winnipeg that year. Given that I believe this was independently compiled (i.e. not submitted by the player), my judgment call was that I will list him, particularly because I believe that the WHA stats are not generally that credible, especially since the numbers don't always add up (a simple test of how well the compiler did).

I've always been curious about how many WHA teams don't have too many low-game, low-point players on their scoring lists. For example, the 1974-75 Quebec Nordiques' lowest scoring player is Alan Globensky, with 5 games, 0 points, 5 PIMs, but the next player is Denis Patry, with 1G, 2A, 3Pts, 2PIM, and the only other Nordique to not score a goal is Jean-Claude Garneau, with 17-0-5-5-27.

You'll see the same phenomenon with other WHA teams; Toronto has no skaters who didn't score a point, and just 2 that played less than 17 games. Edmonton, New England, Cleveland, Chicago, Indianapolis, Phoenix are all the same way.

Houston is the best example. All skaters with the exception of Bill Prentice (17) played more than 70 games. No players scored less than 3 points.

When you look at any other league, there are always players who play a handful of games, scoring little or nothing. Only a few teams show this pattern, the rest stand out.

I have heard it theorized that since the WHA was just in its third season, and was financially shaky, it had few minor league players to call up. This is plausible, but were the teams really skating just 3 lines per game, not giving anyone else a shot? Did they really just dress fewer players consistently? And was nearly every skater in the league just lucky that nearly all managed to get at least one point that season?

I don't buy it. I think that players -- like Andreachuk -- were missed. Guys who played in 1-2 games, skated 2-3 shifts per game, weren't mentioned in the newspaper articles.

I guess that only Frank Polnaczek can provide the answer to this; he has all the WHA game sheets, and when I exchanged email with him a few years ago, he was adamant that he will be the only one accessing them until he dies, at which point the HHoF will get them.

Ralph Slate
http://www.hockeydb.com

#18

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 3:57 pm
Subject: Re: Randy Andreachuk

dsreyn

Offline

So I guess the question then becomes, which source do we believe
(since none of them are infallible)?

Doug

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "austinjapan" <austin@...> wrote:
>
> --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am removing Randy Andreachuk from the Scoring and Master tables.
> He
> > was previously listed as playing 2 games (no points or PIM) for
> > Winnipeg in 1974-75.  However, he is not listed in the 1974-75
> > statistics in Surgent's book, the 1975-76 TSN Hockey Guide, or the
> > 1975-76 WHA Media Guide.
>
>
> Every year the WHL Guides had career stats for all the players who
> turned pro in the back of it and that's where Andreachuk's 2 games
> came from.
>
>
> James
>

#17

From: "austinjapan" <austin@...>
Date: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:31 pm
Subject: Re: Randy Andreachuk

austinjapan

Offline

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
wrote:
>
> I am removing Randy Andreachuk from the Scoring and Master tables.
He
> was previously listed as playing 2 games (no points or PIM) for
> Winnipeg in 1974-75.  However, he is not listed in the 1974-75
> statistics in Surgent's book, the 1975-76 TSN Hockey Guide, or the
> 1975-76 WHA Media Guide.


Every year the WHL Guides had career stats for all the players who
turned pro in the back of it and that's where Andreachuk's 2 games
came from.


James

#16

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Sun Jan 21, 2007 4:18 am
Subject: Randy Andreachuk

dsreyn

Offline

I am removing Randy Andreachuk from the Scoring and Master tables.  He
was previously listed as playing 2 games (no points or PIM) for
Winnipeg in 1974-75.  However, he is not listed in the 1974-75
statistics in Surgent's book, the 1975-76 TSN Hockey Guide, or the
1975-76 WHA Media Guide.

Incidentally, Surgent does not list Jack Gibson in 1974-75, but Gibson
is listed in the TSN Guide (1 game with Toronto in the 1974-75 WHA
playoffs; no regular season games played).

Doug

#15

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 1:24 pm
Subject: Re: This is Great!!!

dsreyn

Offline

The database is in the "files" section (it's the only file there at
the moment).  However, it sounds like this isn't what you're looking
for - this database contains seasonal statistics, with no game scores
or summaries.  The hockey_summary_project group is probably where you
should look.

Doug

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "colleenmarceau"
<bobcol99@...> wrote:
>
> --- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "joe_gucciardo"
> <joe_gucciardo@> wrote:
> >
> > What a great job you have done here. I'm really blown away by this.
> > When I joined this group I didn't think that the databank would be as
> > complete as it is. Once again, great job.
> >
> > Joe
> >
>
> Joe....  how do you get to the data?  I want to see some NHL summaries
> of Oakland games from 1967-68?  Please advise.  Thanks.  Bob in Omaha
>

#14

From: "colleenmarceau" <bobcol99@...>
Date: Fri Jan 19, 2007 11:57 am
Subject: Re: This is Great!!!

colleenmarceau

Offline

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "joe_gucciardo"
<joe_gucciardo@...> wrote:
>
> What a great job you have done here. I'm really blown away by this.
> When I joined this group I didn't think that the databank would be as
> complete as it is. Once again, great job.
>
> Joe
>

Joe....  how do you get to the data?  I want to see some NHL summaries
of Oakland games from 1967-68?  Please advise.  Thanks.  Bob in Omaha

#13

From: James Milks <jamesm@...>
Date: Wed Jan 17, 2007 11:20 pm
Subject: RE: Re: More Total Hockey II issues

losthockey

Offline

Hi,

I have done more research on Fortier since I posted that clip to losthockey.

I am quite certain that Fortier never played. He was from Hull, Quebec. I found a clip in a French language Ottawa paper dated December 15, 1923, which stated that he returned to Hull “Yesterday”, which would mean he arrived in Hull / Ottawa on December 14^th. However, the game he is credited with having played was to be against Toronto on the 15^th. Also, most paper made no mention of him whatsoever in the game summaries.

Below is a clip from a discussion recently held on the SIHR e-list.

To add a bit to what James wrote:

Fortier participated in the whole training camp with the Canadiens. He was one of three rookies, the other two being Howie Morentz [sic] and Sylvio Mantha.

On Dec. 3, the Ottawa French-language newspaper Le Droit wrote that Charles-Auguste Fortier, the “star from Hull” had left to Grimsby to participate in the Canadiens’ training camp, for a one-week trial.

On Dec. 11, under the header “Fortier will be under contract”, Le Droit writes:

“The good old Charles-Auguste Fortier, the right winger from Hull who has shone for many years in the amateur ranks has decided to go to the professional ranks. Charlie spent last year in Grimsby, but he came back to Hull Sunday, and before the pleas of family and friends, he came close to abandoning any idea of becoming a big-leaguer.

The temptation was still there, however. And that spirit is none other than Leo Dandurand, who made the best compliments about Fortier.

Dandurand had last night at 6 o’clock a long phone conversation with Leo Gratton, the well-known athlete from Hull, who is responsible for Fortier’s success. He explained to him that Charlie’s play pleased him and that he would offer him a sufficient salary if he wanted to make the jump.

Finally, Charlie made up his mind and, last night, at 11 o’clock, got on the Toronto express. He got to Grimsby this morning around 10 o’clock. About twenty members of the Association Notre-Dame were at the train station to wish him farewell.

It’s been announced that Fortier has signed for a period of two years.”

Two days later, on the 13th, there is another article in Le Droit, mentioning that Fortier is happy with the conditions that the Canadiens have offered him. It is mentioned that Fortier will no longer be seen in the local leagues, where his talents and abilities had gained him an enviable reputation. It’s also mentioned that Fortier will probably make his debut in the Canadiens’ first game, this coming Saturday.

The 14th, there’s an article about the Canadiens practicing in Hamilton, and the recruits learning about the new forward pass rule.

Then, the 15th, i.e. the day of the first game, as James mentioned, Le Droit announces that “Fortier comes back for good”. It says that Fortier “came back in our area yesterday [i.e. he’s in Ottawa the 14th, when the game in Toronto is the 15th] and, in all probability, will play in the amateur ranks this winter. Dandurand wanted to keep him at any cost, but Charlie was lonely and he wasn’t entirely happy with his new situation. It’s an acquisition for local sports, it is said that Fortier will play for the Canadien [of the (Ottawa) City League, presumably] this winter”.

So why was Fortier’s name on the roster for Montreal’s first game in Toronto?

I’m not an expert at this; I can think of a few reasons:

1. Were the Canadiens required to have a minimum number of players in uniform? I doubt it, because they played their first six games with nine players (including the goalie), and only had ten players starting from the seventh game. Cameron joined the team for the 4th game, but Malone missed that one and the next two. On the 7th game, Malone was back, adding up to ten players.

2. Could Dandurand have been so furious with Fortier, that he wrote him in the game sheet, to strip him of his amateur status? If so, it didn’t work, since Fortier apparently did keep playing as an amateur. This is actually the reason that the editors of Total Hockey 2 removed his entry, which had been present in the first edition. They figured that, even if he had dressed for the game, he certainly hadn't played, since he had retained his amateur status.

3. On the contrary, could Dandurand have tried to be a nice guy and get him a game’s salary by putting him on the game sheet?

None of the newspapers I checked (Globe & Mail, La Presse, La Patrie) list Fortier in the game summary, or mention him in any way (if only to indicate that he wasn’t there). La Presse specifies that the team had two recruits playing (Morenz and Mantha), so clearly Fortier wasn’t there. La Patrie, which had written numerous times about him as a promising rookie, is completely mum about his absence.

The surprising thing is that, to this day, the Canadiens list Fortier as a member of the Stanley Cup-winning team of that season (on their media guide, their web site (http://www.canadiens.com/fre/history/historyRedirect.cfm?sectionID=habsHistoryCups.cfm), etc.). His name is not on the Stanley Cup, but neither is Joe Malone’s, who is also listed, like Fortier, as a member of the Cup-winning team. At least Malone played 10 games that season.

Hope that helps

James

From: hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com [mailto:hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of forever1940
Sent: January 16, 2007 1:06 PM
To: hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [hockey-databank] Re: More Total Hockey II issues

wikipedia notes Fortier as a one-game NHL'er. The legends of hockey
[HHOF] site notes the same. Losthockey.com notes "Charles Fortier
Quite simply, absolutely nothing is known about this guy. That's
right. No source lists anything about this guy. Not his birthdate,
size, or hockey background. All we know for sure is that he
apparently dressed for the Montreal Canadiens for a game during the
1923-24 season. His name lies on the official game sheet for a game
that season. It can only be assumed that Fortier was a local at the
right place at the right time - an emergency addition to the lineup
due to injury or illness. Again, that's just an assumption. Its not
even known what position the guy played. However Zander Hollander's
Encyclopedia of Hockey lists him as a forward.
(written by Joe Pelletier) "

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
wrote:
>
> In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0
PIM)
> and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22. In TH2, his OTS line
> has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM. There is a
> transaction note indicating that he was transferred to Ottawa on
> January 6, 1922. I think it's fairly clear that they had it right
in
> the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in
place
> of the Ottawa stats. The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and
since
> Ottawa had already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's
no
> way he could have played 23 games with Ottawa.
>
> TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-
24.
> In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8. This
obviously
> could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case
where
> combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one
stint,
> so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.
>
> TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his
only
> NHL season). He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
> introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this).
The
> SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player. I'm keeping him in
for now.
>
> Doug
>

#12

From: "forever1940" <forever1940@...>
Date: Tue Jan 16, 2007 6:05 pm
Subject: Re: More Total Hockey II issues

forever1940

Offline

wikipedia notes Fortier as a one-game NHL'er.  The legends of hockey
[HHOF] site notes the same.  Losthockey.com notes "Charles Fortier
Quite simply, absolutely nothing is known about this guy. That's
right. No source lists anything about this guy. Not his birthdate,
size, or hockey background. All we know for sure is that he
apparently dressed for the Montreal Canadiens for a game during the
1923-24 season. His name lies on the official game sheet for a game
that season. It can only be assumed that Fortier was a local at the
right place at the right time - an emergency addition to the lineup
due to injury or illness. Again, that's just an assumption. Its not
even known what position the guy played. However Zander Hollander's
Encyclopedia of Hockey lists him as a forward.
(written by Joe Pelletier) "

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
wrote:
>
> In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0
PIM)
> and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22.  In TH2, his OTS line
> has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM.  There is a
> transaction note indicating that he was transferred to Ottawa on
> January 6, 1922.  I think it's fairly clear that they had it right
in
> the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in
place
> of the Ottawa stats.  The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and
since
> Ottawa had already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's
no
> way he could have played 23 games with Ottawa.
>
> TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-
24.
> In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8.  This
obviously
> could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case
where
> combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one
stint,
> so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.
>
> TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his
only
> NHL season).  He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
> introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this).
The
> SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player.  I'm keeping him in
for now.
>
> Doug
>

#11

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Mon Jan 15, 2007 5:46 pm
Subject: More Total Hockey II issues

dsreyn

Offline

In TH1, Billy Bell is listed with 6 games with MTL (1 G, 0 A, 0 PIM)
and 17 with OTS (1 G, 2 A, 4 PIM) in 1921-22.  In TH2, his OTS line
has changed to 23 games, with 2 G, 2 A, and 4 PIM.  There is a
transaction note indicating that he was transferred to Ottawa on
January 6, 1922.  I think it's fairly clear that they had it right in
the first edition, and apparently printed his combined stats in place
of the Ottawa stats.  The 1921-22 season was 24 games long, and since
Ottawa had already played 6 games when he was transferred, there's no
way he could have played 23 games with Ottawa.

TH1 lists Ganton Scott with 4 games for both TRS and HAM in 1923-24.
In TH2, the number of games with HAM has changed to 8.  This obviously
could be a correction, but I'm suspicious that it's another case where
combined statistics were inserted instead of the stats for one stint,
so I'm sticking with the TH1 version.

TH1 listed Charles Fortier as playing in the NHL in 1923-24 (his only
NHL season).  He was dropped from the register in TH2 (however, the
introduction to the player registers makes no mention of this).  The
SIHR site still lists him as an NHL player.  I'm keeping him in for now.

Doug

#10

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:53 am
Subject: Some possible problems with TH2 stats for 1920-21

dsreyn

Offline

A change between the first and second editions of Total Hockey
(referred to below as TH1 and TH2) was the separation of statistics
for the Stanley Cup finals from 1917-18 through 1925-26, since these
were not NHL vs. NHL matchups (I'm currently making a similar change
to the database).  It looks like a few things may have slipped through
the cracks in making the transition.

TH2 lists Eddie Gerard of Ottawa with 7 playoff games in 1920-21 (1 G,
0 A, 50 PIM), and another 5 in the Stanley Cup finals (0 G, 0 A, 44
PIM).  However, there were only 2 games in the NHL playoffs (Ottawa
vs. Toronto) that year, so 7 games is obviously incorrect.  I'm
assuming that his correct stats for the NHL playoffs should be 2 GP, 0
G, 0 A, and 6 PIM.

Morley Bruce was listed with 7 playoff games in TH1.  He is listed
with 2 playoff games in TH2, with no entry for Cup finals.  Similarly,
Jack MacKell was listed with 6 playoff games in TH1.  He is listed
with 2 games in TH2, with no entry for Cup finals.  I'm assuming these
were oversights, so I'm including them in the stats for the Cup finals
with 5 and 4 games, respectively.

Finally, not related to the playoff stats issue, TH1 listed Sprague
Cleghorn with two stints during the regular season - 3 games with
Ottawa, followed by 13 with Toronto (and a return to Ottawa for the
Cup finals).  TH2 dropped the initial 3 game stint with Ottawa and
left the Toronto stats unchanged.  I'm leaving in the 3 game stint
with Ottawa.

Doug

From: "joe_gucciardo" <joe_gucciardo@...>
Date: Fri Jan 12, 2007 2:27 pm
Subject: This is Great!!!

joe_gucciardo

Offline

What a great job you have done here. I'm really blown away by this.
When I joined this group I didn't think that the databank would be as
complete as it is. Once again, great job.

Joe

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:09 am
Subject: Leo Reise Sr.

dsreyn

Offline

The first edition of Total Hockey gives the stats for Leo Reise in
1920-21 and 1921-22 as follows:

1920-21 6 GP, 2 G, 0 A, 2 Pts, 8 PIM
1921-22 24 GP, 9 G, 14 A, 23 Pts, 11 PIM

This changed rather suspiciously in the second edition to:

1920-21 24 GP, 9 G, 14 A, 23 Pts, 11 PIM
1921-22 24 GP, 9 G, 14 A, 23 Pts, 11 PIM

In this case, I'm staying with the first edition - I suspect that the
1921-22 stats simply got copied over for 1920-21 somehow (and staying
with the first version keeps Hamilton's individual goals balanced with
the team total).

Doug

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:54 am
Subject: Re: Revised playoff statistics (errors in Total Hockey II)

dsreyn

Offline

My list of corrections included a few that are in fact correct in
Total Hockey II.  Hughes (1967), Cashman (1970), and Vadnais (1973)
are OK as printed.

Doug

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...> wrote:
>
> Checking individual statistics against team totals turned up a few
> errors in the individual playoff statistics in Total Hockey (2nd
> edition).  Where a mismatch was found, I went through the game
> summaries in Stanley Cup Records & Statistics to obtain the correct
> figures.  Corrections were made to the following:
>
> 1967 - Stan Mikita (PPG/SHG), Howie Hughes (PPG), Mike McMahon
> (PPG/SHG), J.P. Parise (PPG/SHG)
> 1969 - Gary Sabourin (SHG)
> 1970 - Jim McKenny (PPG), Wayne Cashman (PPG), Frank Mahovlich (PPG),
> Doug Jarrett (PPG)
> 1971 - Bobby Orr (PPG), Johnny Bucyk (PPG), Frank Mahovlich (PPG/GWG)
> 1973 - Ken Hodge (PPG), Carol Vadnais (PPG), Brad Park (PPG), Bobby
> Clarke (PPG), Terry Crisp (SHG)
>
> There were also one or two cases in the late 70s / early 80s where
> playoff GWG did not add properly, and the corrections were obtained
> from the game summaries in the annual NHL Guide (I did not keep a list
> of these).
>
> Doug
>

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2007 3:36 pm
Subject: Revised playoff statistics (errors in Total Hockey II)

dsreyn

Offline

Checking individual statistics against team totals turned up a few
errors in the individual playoff statistics in Total Hockey (2nd
edition).  Where a mismatch was found, I went through the game
summaries in Stanley Cup Records & Statistics to obtain the correct
figures.  Corrections were made to the following:

1967 - Stan Mikita (PPG/SHG), Howie Hughes (PPG), Mike McMahon
(PPG/SHG), J.P. Parise (PPG/SHG)
1969 - Gary Sabourin (SHG)
1970 - Jim McKenny (PPG), Wayne Cashman (PPG), Frank Mahovlich (PPG),
Doug Jarrett (PPG)
1971 - Bobby Orr (PPG), Johnny Bucyk (PPG), Frank Mahovlich (PPG/GWG)
1973 - Ken Hodge (PPG), Carol Vadnais (PPG), Brad Park (PPG), Bobby
Clarke (PPG), Terry Crisp (SHG)

There were also one or two cases in the late 70s / early 80s where
playoff GWG did not add properly, and the corrections were obtained
from the game summaries in the annual NHL Guide (I did not keep a list
of these).

Doug

From: "Stu McMurray" <stumcmurray@...>
Date: Tue Jan 9, 2007 4:55 am
Subject: 1917-18 NHL scoring

stumcmurray

Offline

NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE 1917-18 REGULAR SEASON SCORING

Research by Bob Duff for the NHL & Elias Sports.

GP=Games Played; G=Goals; A=Assists; P=Points;
GW=Game Winning Goals; PIM=Penalty Minutes;
MJ=Major Penalties; MT=Misconduct Penalties.

MONTREAL CANADIENS
  # NAME POSITION           GP   G  A   P  GW PIM MJ MT
  7 Joe Malone C/LW         20  44  4  48   4  30  0  0
  4 Newsy Lalonde C/RW (C)  14  23  7  30   0  51  2  1
  5 Didier Pitre RW         20  17  6  23   5  29  0  1
  2 Bert Corbeau D          21   8  8  16   0  41  0  1
  3 Joe Hall D              21   8  7  15   1 100  5  0
    Jack McDonald LW/RW     12  12  2  14   2  15  0  0
      Wanderers              4   3  1   4   0   3  0  0
      Canadiens              8   9  1  10   2  12  0  0
  9 Billy Couture D/LW      20   2  2   4   0  49  5  0
  6 Jack Laviolette LW      18   2  1   3   0   6  0  0
  8 Louis Berlinquette LW   20   2  1   3   0  12  0  0
    Billy Bell LW            8   1  0   1   0   6  0  0
      Wanderers              2   1  0   1   0   0  0  0
      Canadians              6   0  0   0   0   6  0  0
    Evariste Payer F         1   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
  1 Georges Vezina G        21   0  0   0   0   0  0  0

MONTREAL WANDERERS
  # NAME POSITION           GP   G  A   P  GW PIM MJ MT
    Art Ross D               3   1  0   1   0  12  0  0
    Phil Stephens D/RW       4   1  0   1   0   3  0  0
    Raymie Skilton D         1   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    Kenneth Thompson F       1   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    George O'Grady F         4   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    Jerry Geran C            4   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    Bert Lindsay G           4   0  0   0   0   0  0  0

OTTAWA SENATORS
  # NAME POSITION           GP   G  A   P  GW PIM MJ MT
  5 Cy Denneny LW           20  36 10  46   2  80  2  2
  2 Eddie Gerard D/C/RW (C) 20  13  7  20   0  26  1  0
  7 Jack Darragh C/RW       18  14  5  19   1  26  1  0
  6 Frank Nighbor C         10  11  8  19   2   6  0  0
  3 George Boucher C/LW     21   9  8  17   1  46  1  1
14 Harry Hyland C/RW       17  14  2  16   2  65  3  1
      Wanderers              4   6  1   7   0   6  0  0
      Ottawa                13   8  1   9   2  59  3  1
    Dave Ritchie D/RW/LW    18   9  3  12   2  21  0  0
      Wanderers              4   5  2   7   1   3  0  0
      Ottawa                14   4  1   5   1  18  0  0
    Hamby Shore D           18   3  8  11   0  51  2  1
    Eddie Lowery RW         12   2  1   3   0   3  0  0
    Horace Merrill D         3   0  0   0   0   3  0  0
10 Morley Bruce D           7   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
  1 Clint Benedict G        22   0  0   0   0   0  0  0


TORONTO ARENAS
  # NAME POSITION           GP   G  A   P  GW PIM MJ MT
  4 Reg Noble C/LW/RW       20  30 10  40   4  35  1  0
  5 Corb Denneny C/RW/LW    21  20  9  29   1  14  1  0
  2 Harry Cameron D         21  17 10  27   1  28  2  0
  7 Harry Meeking C/RW/LW   21  10  9  19   1  28  2  0
  6 Alf Skinner C/RW/LW     20  13  5  18   0  28  2  0
  3 Ken Randall D/C/RW (C)  21  12  2  14   4  96  6  0
10 Harry Mummery D         18   3  3   6   1  41  1  0
    Rusty Crawford D/C      20   3  4   7   0  66  2  1
      Ottawa                12   2  2   4   0  15  0  0
      Toronto                8   1  2   3   0  51  2  1
  8 Jack Coughlin D          5   2  0   2   0   3  0  0
    Jack Marks LW            6   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
      Wanderers              1   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
      Toronto                5   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    Jack Adams C             8   0  0   0   0  31  1  1
  9 Sammy Hebert G           2   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
  1 Arthur Brooks G          4   0  0   0   0   0  0  0
    Hap Holmes G            16   0  0   0   0   0  0  0

From: "dsreyn" <dreynolds@...>
Date: Mon Jan 8, 2007 12:51 am
Subject: Re: DATA - Scoring - error

dsreyn

Offline

Thanks for finding these.  1996 plus/minus for wilsola02 should be -6.

Doug

--- In hockey-databank@yahoogroups.com, "tangotiger" <tangotiger@...>
wrote:
>
> wilsola02 - plus/minus just showing a minus sign
> lambjo01 - to be standard, the pos field should have a slash, not
> semicolon
>
> Again, I've gotta give you a huge hatsoff.  This is really sensational.
>

From: "tangotiger" <tangotiger@...>
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2007 2:34 pm
Subject: DATA - Scoring - error

tangotiger

Offline

wilsola02 - plus/minus just showing a minus sign
lambjo01 - to be standard, the pos field should have a slash, not
semicolon

Again, I've gotta give you a huge hatsoff.  This is really sensational.

From: "tangotiger" <tangotiger@...>
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2007 2:39 pm
Subject: DATA - goalies - error

tangotiger

Offline

moogan01 - 1980 line should not show any shots allowed (null, not zero)

From: "tangotiger" <tangotiger@...>
Date: Sun Jan 7, 2007 2:29 pm
Subject: DATA - MASTER - errors

tangotiger

Offline

wattto01c - wrong year of birth
abbeybr01 - position, yob swapped

Fabulous work!