Hi Howard,

I've been fine. I have been retired for 17 months, now. We just married-off
son #2 this past Oct; 2 more to go.

I play at least 3x week (mostly at the San Francisco TT Club and I have just
started up again playing with Jeff L at his church and when I need more...I go
to the SF Lawton Club during the day). I play HB sometimes with Linsey, Dan and
Mike M and with Jeff L. I always have my HB in my bag ; currently a one-ply
hinoki with Dr. Evil. I hope you and your wife have been well.

JohnF


--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, H Bbb <spam.bad50@...> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> Long time no see. How have you been?
>
> Howard
>

40 mm also makes the game go slower.!!!!whether sponger rubber or liha
and since liha is slower . this might already  make  audience  "yawn" to sleep 
. ahahaha

then peole says thats boring!!!

xxxxxxxx

that judgement  is  not fair. because  some element  is wrong.


38 mm travel  faster than 40 mm.
and since one use "not bouncy" liha , it compensate  the 38 mm - and is " just
enough" speed gain

while if you use say sponge rubber rackets. it gains speed. the moment you use
38 mm. -- compare to 40 mm.

40 mm purpsoe is to make the game  go slow and if  since one is using  say liha
- no need to change ball to 40 mm and easily breaks anyway.

38 mm to liha is just normal wear and tear. and jsut enough speed to excite
people if handle by experts.

pete




--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "dnorman" <wallyswoods@...> wrote:
>
> I remember that Kusangloob said 40 mm balls broke when played with sandpaper. 
One evening at the Cleveland club a couple of guys played some sandpaper matches
with me, and we broke three 40mm balls in a few minutes.  I asked a guy who has
some engineering expertise and he said of course the smaller diameter ball would
have greater impact strength because of the tighter curve.
>
> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Lobo" <sgordon@> wrote:
> >
> > By the way, at the end of the day, not a single 38mm ball was cracked. 
After four solid hours of play on six tables, even using hardbats, all six balls
were still like new.
> >
> > I asked the crowd at the end how they liked playing with the 38s.  There was
a big pause... then people started shrugging, several commenting that there was
no difference, and that they had completely forgotten they were even using 38mm
balls.  I know that I forgot within the first 2 or 3 minutes.
> >
>

Can't say I was ever fond of the two-handed backhand even when I used to play
full-court Tennis back in the day.

And that... coming from an huge Jimmy Connors fan no less.  ;-)

Cheers!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
80421

I've had several students who use a two handed backhand -- all active
tennis players. Hard to talk them out of it, but it of course limits
their table tennis stroke and adds nothing (power and protection from
tennis elbow in tennis).

Dr. Dave

************************

bonemanrides wrote:
>
>
> A two handed backhand. Wow... that's hard to imagine even. But after
> you mentioned the "teardrop" shaped bat, I got to thinking my antique
> Parker Bros. set has teardrop shaped bats with handles that are
> considerably longer than usual. Probably would be perfect for the
> two-handed backhander.
>
> Can't wait to see the video. Two handed backhand in Table Tennis.
> Amazing. Great shades of Jimmy Connors!
>
> Sounds like the tournament was a blast... I wish there were a hardbat
> event as such propinquitous.... I'm holding one at work but it's just
> not quite the same as a "real" tournament, for sure.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Larry "Boneman" Bone
> Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
> 80421
>
>

A two handed backhand.  Wow... that's hard to imagine even.  But after you
mentioned the "teardrop" shaped bat, I got to thinking my antique Parker Bros.
set has teardrop shaped bats with handles that are considerably longer than
usual.  Probably would be perfect for the two-handed backhander.

Can't wait to see the video.  Two handed backhand in Table Tennis.  Amazing. 
Great shades of Jimmy Connors!

Sounds like the tournament was a blast...  I wish there were a hardbat event as
such propinquitous....  I'm holding one at work but it's just not quite the same
as a "real" tournament, for sure.

Cheers!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
80421

I remember that Kusangloob said 40 mm balls broke when played with sandpaper. 
One evening at the Cleveland club a couple of guys played some sandpaper matches
with me, and we broke three 40mm balls in a few minutes.  I asked a guy who has
some engineering expertise and he said of course the smaller diameter ball would
have greater impact strength because of the tighter curve.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Lobo" <sgordon@...> wrote:
>
> By the way, at the end of the day, not a single 38mm ball was cracked.  After
four solid hours of play on six tables, even using hardbats, all six balls were
still like new.
>
> I asked the crowd at the end how they liked playing with the 38s.  There was a
big pause... then people started shrugging, several commenting that there was no
difference, and that they had completely forgotten they were even using 38mm
balls.  I know that I forgot within the first 2 or 3 minutes.
>

By the way, at the end of the day, not a single 38mm ball was cracked.  After
four solid hours of play on six tables, even using hardbats, all six balls were
still like new.

I asked the crowd at the end how they liked playing with the 38s.  There was a
big pause... then people started shrugging, several commenting that there was no
difference, and that they had completely forgotten they were even using 38mm
balls.  I know that I forgot within the first 2 or 3 minutes.

The Sacramento hardbat fest was a big success, and had some surprises.  We had
13 players from Sacramento and the Bay Area.  Top seeds were Ted Chen (2065),
George Seician (2017), Scott Gordon (1999) and Joey Tennerife (1877).  The field
was split in half into two large round robins, followed by additional crossover
matches afterwards.

Scott was the winner.  Joey came in third.  But the big surprise was who came in
second.  Not only unrated, but having never even attended a table tennis club
before(!), tennis player Matt Seeberger utilized amazingly consistent attacking
shots from both sides, superb footwork, and a two-handed backhand kill that has
to be seen to be believed, to plow through his round robin winning all matches
2-0. This included wins over experienced tournament players Howard Lindo (1586),
Allan Ding (1457), and top-seeded Ted Chen (2065).  He then beat Joey Tenerife
in the semifinal, 2-1, before losing a close match to Scott in the final.  Even
more amazingly, he was using a borrowed paddle, my teardrop-shaped Don Varian
Hock -- he said the shape really suited his two-handed grip. Matt drove all the
way from Redwood City to play.

I asked Matt how he got so good... he says he practices at work regularly.  But
when I asked if he has any competition there, he said no, that he has never had
a chance to play against someone good... that's why he looked around for a
tournament to play in.  What a talent!

I videotaped game 2 of the final, and will post highlights as soon as I can. 
You'll all want to see this guy play!

A few years ago I suggested a design for an electronic score keeper for table
tennis.  Found out one had been made before, but was no longer being
manufactured.  Now Sportcraft has a table that comes with such a scorer. Saw it
in ad by Target.  Can't find any explanation of how the scorer works, but you
can see a round disk on each end of the net, and apparently some batteries are
required.  Don't know if the scorer or net and scorer can be bought separately
from the table.  It is only advertised on one cheap model of table.  Maybe I
will go to a Target store and check it out. Maybe someone already has?  Could
avoid hassles when playing with someone who has trouble remembering the score,
and contests your memory of it at crucial points.

Interesting.  I was muddling through the rules the other day....  Whilst there
are specific references to only being able to change racquets during a match if
you should break one...

I really did not see anything specific banning the use of one racquet in each
hand.  Though, you would have to put one on the table whilst serving as you must
propel the ball upward off an open palm....

Not that I would consider using two... lord knows I have enough issue
controlling one.  ;-)

Later!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
80421

Both Marinas brothers (San Francisco TT Club) have made serious committments to
ambidexteriousity <g>.  Mike, normally a right-handed inverted penholder, plays
hardbat left-handed and in shakehand style.
His brother Dan, a full-time shakehand hardbat player, has stuck to his
committment to alternate playing hands (right for the 1st game then left for the
2nd...) for ALL his matches.  Dan has been playing this way for many years now,
and he has gotten so good with his left (off) hand that it is sometimes
difficult for me to remember if I am playing right-handed Dan or left-handed
Dan.


JohnF

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "bonemanrides" <bonemanrides@...> wrote:
>
> The other day I was playing a fellow and we were having a very vigorous match.
One particular point I fired a low, flaming backhand snap cross-court to his
backhand.
>
> As he struggles to get to it... he TOSSES HIS BAT from his right hand to his
left and successfully returns the ball.
>
> I was so startled by this that I missed his easily returned ball altogether
and immediately asked "Is that LEGAL?!?!!?!"
>
> He of course replied yes....
>
> I've not yet had the time to dig through the rules but I can't help but wonder
about it....
>
> Damndest thing I've seen... well... except for the times that I successfully
return balls out of reach by throwing my bat at them.... to be honest I doubt
that's legal either... but it sure is fun when it works.
>
> Until of course, the ball comes back over the net and I'm standing there
watching it empty-handed.
>
> Later!
>
> Larry "Boneman" Bone
> Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
> 80421
>

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ltd-Ed,-Retro-Fred-Perry-Table-Tennis-%2F-Ping-Pong-Set_W0\
QQitemZ280421885506QQcmdZViewItemQQimsxq20091111?IMSfp=TL091111177001r10890

As seen in Table Tennis collector no 54, Fall edition on page 5 by Gerald Gurney
who had them cloned from his original set.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Lobo" <sgordon@...> wrote:
>
> I believe that this is exactly what Bernie Hock used to do when he constructed
a Hock paddle.

I'll be darned... I had not a clue.

Tellya what... it's working like a charm!

Cheers!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA
80421

I believe that this is exactly what Bernie Hock used to do when he constructed a
Hock paddle.

--- "bonemanrides" <bonemanrides@...> wrote:
> What I do is use WHITE GLUE.  AKA... "Elmer's" glue-all... applyin a very
minimal quantity at the edge.

So I've been having a bit of a time with all my hardbat rubbers lifting around
the edges.  Whether I use tear-mender, rubber cement or the ever so
loftily-labeled Tibhar rubber cement.

Pondering this... it dawned on me that perhaps something a bit more substantial
could be used around the edges so here's what I've done and it seems to be
working very well...

What I do is use WHITE GLUE.  AKA... "Elmer's" glue-all... or whatever
equivalent you can get your hands on.  I dispense a wee pool of it on a paper
plate, dip the end of my finger in it and carefully go around the edges of the
rubber... applyin a very minimal quantity at the edge.

It dries to invisible, does not effect the overall performance of the rubber and
thus far, seems to be holding the edges down wonderfully.

When it comes time to remove... just moisten it a bit to soften it up.

An added bonus is it seals and strengthens the blade edge.  All this... with no
(or... imperceptible anyhow) overall changes in blade characteristics.

Cheers!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA
80421

>The racket must be held, usually in your hand, for the return to be legal.

I figured as much.  First time I did it was utterly reflexive... trying to get
an extremely short ball back over the net, without thinking I just tossed the
bat under the ball.

Much to the surprise of myself and my opponent, it popped the ball back over the
net... so unsettling... actually... more like he busted out laughing (as did I)
that he was unable to return what should have been a very easy ball... to a
totally unarmed opponent.

I ceded the point to him as I figured it was probably not a legal play.

Still... it's funny as all hell when it's executed successfully.

The swapping hands thing....  Legal or not... I don't like it.  Fine... you're
ambi... but you can't switch BATS mid-game.... so why hands?

Oh well... just my opinion.  Can't argue with the legality of it.

Later!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
80421

As Scott said, switching hands is perfectly legal.  Throwing the racket to
effect a return, however, is not.  The racket must be held, usually in your
hand, for the return to be legal.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com

Indeed, both Mike and his twin brother Dan are fully
ambidextrous, and Mike in particular switches so easily
that he will often do it just to play an all-forehand game.

At the world class level, Grubba frequently did it, and
can be seen on several videos power looping with both hands
during one point.  It is absolutely legal.

Scott

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, H Bbb <spam.bad50@...> wrote:
>
> Mike Marinas of Daly City, CA is a great hardbat player and he switches the
blade from one hand to the other so smoothly and seamlessly that not everyone
notices it immediately.
>
> HB
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: dnorman <wallyswoods@...>
> To: hardbat@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thu, November 12, 2009 5:07:18 AM
> Subject: [hardbat] Re: Speaking of rules...
>
>
> Trevor Runyan has done that in matches, and I am sure it is legal.  Lily Yip
was delighted when Trevor did that to her in a hardbat final, and I think Trevor
won the point.  She won the match easily, however, so the tactic is not a game
changer.  Gerry Ladd is pretty good at switching his paddle to the other hand to
reach wide shots.
>
> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups .com, "bonemanrides" <bonemanrides@ ...> wrote:
> >
> > The other day I was playing a fellow and we were having a very vigorous
match.  One particular point I fired a low, flaming backhand snap cross-court to
his backhand.
> >
> > As he struggles to get to it... he TOSSES HIS BAT from his right hand to his
left and successfully returns the ball.
> >
> > I was so startled by this that I missed his easily returned ball altogether
and immediately asked "Is that LEGAL?!?!!?! "
> >
> > He of course replied yes....
> >
> > I've not yet had the time to dig through the rules but I can't help but
wonder about it....
> >
> > Damndest thing I've seen... well... except for the times that I successfully
return balls out of reach by throwing my bat at them.... to be honest I doubt
that's legal either... but it sure is fun when it works.
> >
> > Until of course, the ball comes back over the net and I'm standing there
watching it empty-handed.
> >
> > Later!
> >
> > Larry "Boneman" Bone
> > Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
> > 80421
> >
>

Trevor Runyan has done that in matches, and I am sure it is legal.  Lily Yip was
delighted when Trevor did that to her in a hardbat final, and I think Trevor won
the point.  She won the match easily, however, so the tactic is not a game
changer.  Gerry Ladd is pretty good at switching his paddle to the other hand to
reach wide shots.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "bonemanrides" <bonemanrides@...> wrote:
>
> The other day I was playing a fellow and we were having a very vigorous match.
One particular point I fired a low, flaming backhand snap cross-court to his
backhand.
>
> As he struggles to get to it... he TOSSES HIS BAT from his right hand to his
left and successfully returns the ball.
>
> I was so startled by this that I missed his easily returned ball altogether
and immediately asked "Is that LEGAL?!?!!?!"
>
> He of course replied yes....
>
> I've not yet had the time to dig through the rules but I can't help but wonder
about it....
>
> Damndest thing I've seen... well... except for the times that I successfully
return balls out of reach by throwing my bat at them.... to be honest I doubt
that's legal either... but it sure is fun when it works.
>
> Until of course, the ball comes back over the net and I'm standing there
watching it empty-handed.
>
> Later!
>
> Larry "Boneman" Bone
> Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
> 80421
>

The other day I was playing a fellow and we were having a very vigorous match. 
One particular point I fired a low, flaming backhand snap cross-court to his
backhand.

As he struggles to get to it... he TOSSES HIS BAT from his right hand to his
left and successfully returns the ball.

I was so startled by this that I missed his easily returned ball altogether and
immediately asked "Is that LEGAL?!?!!?!"

He of course replied yes....

I've not yet had the time to dig through the rules but I can't help but wonder
about it....

Damndest thing I've seen... well... except for the times that I successfully
return balls out of reach by throwing my bat at them.... to be honest I doubt
that's legal either... but it sure is fun when it works.

Until of course, the ball comes back over the net and I'm standing there
watching it empty-handed.

Later!

Larry "Boneman" Bone
Dingmans Ferry, PA, USA
80421

Jay wrote an excellent summary.  The rule changes were
made at the U.S. Open by the Hardbat Committee, and
approved by the USATT Board a week or so ago.
Here are a couple of additional changes that were made:

- MagicPips will become illegal March 1, 2010.
- It is no longer legal to switch paddles between games.
- The service rule is now the same as for USATT events,
    except that foot-stamping remains illegal.

The reason for MagicPips becoming illegal, is because
the formulation has changed and the new version is
considerably spinnier than the old version.

Scott


--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "wturber" <jay@...> wrote:
>
>
> It looks like Scott has now updated the Hardbat.com pages.  The changes I saw
were:
>
> 1) Gambler Peacekeeper OX is now a legal rubber.
> 2) Any ATP rubber is now legal.  So the ATP Leland "prototype" rubbers should
now be legal also.
>
> The pre-assembled rackets rules have changed.  The list of approved
pre-assembled hardbats has been removed. Pre-assembled rackets are OK for
smaller local hardbat events at the tournament director's discretion, but not
for championship and four star events. But even at local events, these
pre-assembled rackets are not allowed in the regular non-hardbat events.
>
> I'm not sure if this is a change or not, but I noticed that tournament
directors have the option of specifying 38mm or 40mm balls for hardbat events.
>
> All of these changes seem sensible to me.
>
> http://www.hardbat.com/hardbat.html
>
> Jay Turberville
> www.jayandwanda.com
>

It looks like Scott has now updated the Hardbat.com pages.  The changes I saw
were:

1) Gambler Peacekeeper OX is now a legal rubber.
2) Any ATP rubber is now legal.  So the ATP Leland "prototype" rubbers should
now be legal also.

The pre-assembled rackets rules have changed.  The list of approved
pre-assembled hardbats has been removed. Pre-assembled rackets are OK for
smaller local hardbat events at the tournament director's discretion, but not
for championship and four star events. But even at local events, these
pre-assembled rackets are not allowed in the regular non-hardbat events.

I'm not sure if this is a change or not, but I noticed that tournament directors
have the option of specifying 38mm or 40mm balls for hardbat events.

All of these changes seem sensible to me.

http://www.hardbat.com/hardbat.html

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com