Is playing hall S3 where the check in desk will be located?  There are
a lot of playing halls at the Conv. Center, or is the meeting at the
Hilton hotel?

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Robert Palgon" <robertpalgon@...>
wrote:
>
> In case some hardbatters may not have heard, a meeting of the Hardbat
> Committee will be held on Tuesday, December 16, 2008, at 5PM in
> boardroom #224, on the second floor closest to playing hall S3 at the
> Las Vegas Hilton/Convention Center complex.  All those interested in
> attending are encouraged to do so.
>

In case some hardbatters may not have heard, a meeting of the Hardbat
Committee will be held on Tuesday, December 16, 2008, at 5PM in
boardroom #224, on the second floor closest to playing hall S3 at the
Las Vegas Hilton/Convention Center complex.  All those interested in
attending are encouraged to do so.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "wallyswoods" <wallyswoods@...>
wrote:
>
> How does the Yasaka hardbat rubber compare to Dr. Evil, Leyland
and
> Butterfly Orthodox?
>

Having recently had experience of the Yasaka Cobalt rubber purchased
recently from Valor,which my son is trying out,it is a good quality
rubber lighter and more consistent than butterfly,ie red and black
play more/less the same,samples of Butterfly can vary in speed
between red/black sheets.(UK samples anyway)

But again the only commercial rubber I know designed to play like
the classical rubbers of yesteryear is the Andro Classic, no other
rubber out there makes any effort to design the following... Light
weight,small soft pips properly searated in the original pattern,
similar size and spacing of pips to a 50s Barna. All other rubbers
are basically top sheets no different to what is used in the sponge
game.

In my opinion It boils down to personal tast,and the choice is.

1 If you want to use your favourite lightweight sponge blade, buy
modern type heavy rubbers take your pick from Butterfly etc as these
were designed with modern blades in mind.

2 If you want to experience maximum control for longer rallys and
greater enjoyment with a direct lineage to the great players Barna,
Bergmann, etc and what they used,I favour either Marty Reisman's
blades or a classic from Valor using Andro Classic. (incidently it
was your review on your site that alerted us to Alberto's bats,
great cartoons,my family really enjoy them) He made me a superb copy
of my Bergmann called the Lion,you can get shots back you won't
believe,and my son has had remarkable results from the Valor
Stingray.

If anyone is skeptical,Have a look at Glos 2004 on hardbat.com
videos the finals were played using classical leyland on 5 ply
Reisman made Hocks,the other games used prototype Reisman rubbers
and Andro classic,which acounts for the classic style def/attack
rallys.

Then have a look at recent hardbat events in Europe which use
mostly  Dr Evil and modern blades on say, the Hardbat France website

Its like two different games,I know which I prefer,but as thats my
Son Scott on the Glos video I may be biased.



> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Turberville" <jay@> wrote:
> >
> > > Conclusion, latest samples of Andro classic rubbers perform
very
> > > close to the non perished barna/leyland rubber.
> > > Dr Evil with its higher rec/paddle like pitch, was more like
the
> > > perished barna.
> >
> > Which means that if anything, it is less sponge-like than the
classic
> > rubbers.  Quite the opposite of the earier claim.
> >
> > Jay Turberville
> > www.jayandwanda.com
> >
>

[submitted to Yahoo Hardbat site]

Friday, December 12.  Tournament starts at 9 pm, but if you arrive
late, that's  copesetic, too.

Prize will be a case of Reed's Virgil's Rootbeer.


Address:  7020.5 Reseda Blvd., Reseda, CA  91335
Phone:   818 757 7201

$7 floor fee.  $2 entry fee.

Picture of club attached.

How does the Yasaka hardbat rubber compare to Dr. Evil, Leyland and
Butterfly Orthodox?

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Jay Turberville" <jay@...> wrote:
>
> > Conclusion, latest samples of Andro classic rubbers perform very
> > close to the non perished barna/leyland rubber.
> > Dr Evil with its higher rec/paddle like pitch, was more like the
> > perished barna.
>
> Which means that if anything, it is less sponge-like than the classic
> rubbers.  Quite the opposite of the earier claim.
>
> Jay Turberville
> www.jayandwanda.com
>

> Conclusion, latest samples of Andro classic rubbers perform very
> close to the non perished barna/leyland rubber.
> Dr Evil with its higher rec/paddle like pitch, was more like the
> perished barna.

Which means that if anything, it is less sponge-like than the classic
rubbers.  Quite the opposite of the earier claim.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com

[submitted to Yahoo Hardbat site]

The last Friday tournament was a success.  Adoni came in first; Ed,
second; and Mark came in third.   (Third place winner preferred not to
have his/her name listed.)   Reed's Ginger Brew put up a case of
Virgil's for the prizes.  Adoni received a half case of Virgil's Root
Beer, and second and third place split the rest.

We will be having another Friday night Hardbat tournament on the 12th
at USA Valley TTC.   Come by between 8 and 9:30 pm if you wanna enter.
   $2 entry fee.   One case of Reed's Virgil's Root Beer will be
divided between first, second, and third place winners.   Anyone who
can put up money or prizes for this weekly event is encouraged to do
so.  Providing   good prizes for our HB tournaments is the catalyst
for getting the top sponge players to experiment with our game.

Lower division players are encourage to play.  Lower division prize is
a free half hour Hardbat lesson to the winner.

The club's address is  7020.5 Reseda Blvd., Reseda, CA 91335.  Phone
number 818 757 7201.

The USA Valley TTC is a wonderful club because Mary, the owner, has
the egalitarian spirit and wants to provide a neutral environment for
everyone whether she/he plays Sandpaper (very big in Philippines) ,
Hardbat, Sponge, or Wood.   The club has 8 brand new Butterfly Europa
table, a Newgy's ball machine and ample free parking in the back.
The best thing is that the club is open from 8 am to 11 pm every day.

Floor fee is $7.

Yours in HB,

Tandy G.
Promotion
Hardbat International

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Mark Johnson" <manxpingpong@...>
wrote:

Since this was originally written,having done further testing,I feel
that Dr Evil makes a classic hardbat blade perform like a cheap rec
paddle owing to the fact that it feels more plastic than rubber in
composition,producing a sound and touch unlike a quality classic
rubber.

In comparing some rubbers recently, I used 3x 50s Barna blades one
with original well preserved Barna rubber, one with perished Barna
rubber and one blank to try diferent rubbers.

Rubbers tested were latest spec Andro classic and Dr Evil rubbers.

Results were interesting, bouncing a ball on the latest Andro was
very similar in speed and tone indicating similar compliance and
pimple geometry ,serations etc to the well preserved barna.

Comparing Dr Evil to same barna resulted in a slower bounce and a
higher pitch tone indicating stiffer non serated pimples perhaps.

Now when using the perished barna as ref the Dr Evil produced a
similar bounce and sounded similar in tone

Conclusion, latest samples of Andro classic rubbers perform very
close to the non perished barna/leyland rubber.
Dr Evil with its higher rec/paddle like pitch, was more like the
perished barna.

--- End forwarded message ---

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "gnopgnipster" <gnopgnipster@...>
wrote:
>
> Don't you already owe several weeks worth of lessons from the last
> time you said free lessons? aha. Who are the coaches that will be
giving the free lessons? Stop scamming people!
>
> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Tandy Goldberg" <gusikoff1959@>
> wrote:
> >
> > [Submitted to Yahoo Hardbat groups]
> >
> > Confidential sources say that US Open Champion  Marty Reisman
will
> be
> > at the Close with a copious supply
> > of Leyland.   He also will have  few handmade bats.
> >
> > Buy it from Mr. Reisman.  Support our extant Classic-era
champions.
> > Hardbat International cares....
> >
> >
> > Tandy G.
> > Promotion
> > Hardbat International
> > 310 967 5844
> >
> > Put a $100 order in through Marty and get a free half-hour Hardbat
> > lesson from one of our
> > USATT coaches.
> >
>

Don't you already owe several weeks worth of lessons from the last
time you said free lessons? aha.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Tandy Goldberg" <gusikoff1959@...>
wrote:
>
> [Submitted to Yahoo Hardbat groups]
>
> Confidential sources say that US Open Champion  Marty Reisman will
be
> at the Close with a copious supply
> of Leyland.   He also will have  few handmade bats.
>
> Buy it from Mr. Reisman.  Support our extant Classic-era champions.
> Hardbat International cares....
>
>
> Tandy G.
> Promotion
> Hardbat International
> 310 967 5844
>
> Put a $100 order in through Marty and get a free half-hour Hardbat
> lesson from one of our
> USATT coaches.
>

[Submitted to Yahoo Hardbat groups]

Confidential sources say that US Open Champion  Marty Reisman will be
at the Close with a copious supply
of Leyland.   He also will have  few handmade bats.

Buy it from Mr. Reisman.  Support our extant Classic-era champions.
Hardbat International cares....


Tandy G.
Promotion
Hardbat International
310 967 5844

Put a $100 order in through Marty and get a free half-hour Hardbat
lesson from one of our
USATT coaches.

Dear Mr Goldberg...Don't knock it till you try it!
--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Tandy Goldberg" <gusikoff1959@...>
wrote:
>
> Dear Mr. Turberville,
>
> Thanks for the information.
>
> Uh, huh, but if one plays with Leyland, as the critics of Dr. Evil
do,
>  Dr. Evil does play like sponge and does "disrupt [the] TRADITIONAL
> SPIN of [the] ball."
>
> Why make Hardbat so complicated as the pro-spongecentrics have made
> the "20th century game"?    Make Leyland or Leyland clones  the
> standard.    Equalize the playing field with a standardized blade.
> The idear of using trickery to win a game is anathema to your
> quintessential Hardbatter uh huh, thank you very much.
>
> Yours in HB,
>
> Tandy G.
> Promotion
> Hardbat International
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Jay Turberville <jay@...> wrote:
> >
> >> Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil. Why was it ever
> >> approved? I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say
on
> >> the packaging that it produced weird spins.
> >>
> >> I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr.
Evil and
> >> it looked like he was playing with sponge. This isn't good for
the
> >> Classic game.
> >>
> >> The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous. Get rid of it.
> >
> > Have you actually ever played with this rubber? Based on your
> > comments, I'm betting that you haven't.
> >
> > This rubber isn't exactly thick at about 1.7mm - though that does
put
> > it about .3mm thicker than the Leyland that I have. This rubber
does
> > not play like sponge. And it certainly does not sound like sponge
> > either. I once suggested the rubber to a defensive chopper that I
> > know and he decided it was far too slow and dead for him, but
found
> > that he liked it a lot if he used it with sponge.
> >
> > The package actually says two things regarding spin. "Strange Spin
> > Changing Short Pips" and "Disrupts traditional spin of ball." But
you
> > need to keep those comments in context. First, marketing tends to
> > exaggerate. If something is "good" the the package will probably
tell
> > you that it is "wonderful." Second, most people play almost
entirely
> > against players using inverted rubber over sponge. Anythng
> > unconventional is "strange" to them. I found that playing with
802-40
> > and 2.0mm sponge confounded a number of players. I've watched many
> > players struggle to deal with short pips - never mind short pips
with
> > no sponge. Hardbat "spin continuation" and receiving balls that
have
> > weak or no spin is probably quite "disruptive" and "strange" for
> > today's typical table tennis player.
> >
> > I've been playing hardbat with Dr Evil for a few months now and
have
> > found that the use of this rubber has lead me to strokes that
> > capitalize on the notion of spin continuous far more than on
strokes
> > that attempt spin generation. It is not easy at all to generate a
lot
> > of spin with this rubber. Topspin can be done however, by using
> > strong strokes that start very low and use a very open racket
face. I
> > suppose this might look like a loop to some, but it is a stroke
that
> > is far different than the loop stroke I use when playing with
inverted
> > - and the spin generation is a lot less.
> >
> > I've watched some footage of classic harbat matches and the
strokes
> > seem quite consistent with what I find myself doing with Dr Evil
and
> > hardbat. The face of the racket must be quite open and you
must "roll"
> > the ball off of the face of the racket while stroking upward if
you
> > intend to generate any topspin. The footage of these classic
players
> > made sense to me right away based on my recent experience using
Dr Evil.
> >
> > While I'm sure not every player is going to love Dr Evil, in my
> > experience it certainly does lend itself to classic hardbat play.
> > There is simply no way you can perform loop stroke with this
rubber.
> > The ball with drop right off the face of the racket and onto the
> > table. You'd be lucky if you could get the ball to even reach the
> > net. I've played against other (non-approved) hardbat rubber that
was
> > much spinnier. This rubber is no spinnier than the blue Leyland
rubber
> > on my other racket.
> >
> > Last time I looked, there are currently only about six (maybe only
> > five - I've found it hard to locate Andro Classic in the U.S.)
> > approved hardbat rubbers that you can actually buy from dealers.
You
> > might want to investigate Dr Evil further before calling for its
> > elimination from this already too short list.
> >
> > Dr Evil
> > Andro Classic
> > Butterfly Orthodox
> > Hallmark MagicPips
> > Yasaka A1-2
> > Yasaka Cobalt
> >
> > Jay Turberville
> > www.jayandwanda.com
> >
> >
>

> Thanks for the information.
>
> Uh, huh, but if one plays with Leyland, as the critics of Dr. Evil
do,
>  Dr. Evil does play like sponge and does "disrupt [the] TRADITIONAL
> SPIN of [the] ball."

Dr Evil simply does not play like sponge.  Further, it is disruptive
to the spin in the same way Leyland is - it doesn't impart much.


> Why make Hardbat so complicated as the pro-spongecentrics have made
> the "20th century game"?    Make Leyland or Leyland clones  the
> standard.

Leyland rubber is not currently manufactured.  Leyland rubber went
out of business sometime before 2005.  They have re-opened under re-
organization, but it seems unlikely that they are going to be making
rubber sheets for table tennis.  Further, Reisman rubber which was
supposed to be a near clone of Leyland is also no longer manufactured
and is now pretty scarce.  So please point me to a place where I can
purchase some Leyland rubber or a good clone and I'd be happy to do
that if the price is even close to reasonable.  It'd be no skin off
of my nose because I'd expect the difference between it and Dr Evil
to be pretty small.  I wonder how old the Leyland rubber that some
people are using is.  I know that some of the stuff I've seen on some
blades is in pretty poor shape and clearly old and well used.

> Equalize the playing field with a standardized blade.

There never was a standard blade or standard rubber.  A wide variety
of blades were available for decades.  Even individual manufacturers
provided variety within their own line.  Your recommendation is in
conflict with the notion of playing the traditional game of hardbat.

> The idear of using trickery to win a game is anathema to your
> quintessential Hardbatter uh huh, thank you very much.

Spend $10.  Put a sheet on a blade.  See for yourself.  There's
nothing tricky about Dr Evil rubber.  At least nothing tricky from
the standpoint of what any hardbat player would expect.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com

The TT club of Honfleur (France) has the project to organize a great international hardbat event for the 65th anniversary of the Normandy Landings, in June 6th and 7th 2009. The purposes are :

-to gather hardbat players of the whole world, and if possible, ancient hardbat champions.
-to create a mood like in the "Golden Era", through music, clothes...
-to organize an exhibition of vintage bats (if I can be there  ).
-to propose a touristic stay with this event (maybe with 2 tournaments, one on Saturday and one on Sunday, so that people can choose to play one day and to go sightseeing the other one).
-and, of course, to promote hardbat.

This project is really ambitious, but I find it very interesting. Would some of the members of this Yahoo Hardbat Group be interested ? Of course, it would be easier for European players to come, but maybe some Americans players would be interested too, including this event in a stay longer than a week end.

For the moment, this project is only a post created in our french hardbat forum, but I hope it will be achieved.

Dear Mr. Turberville,

Thanks for the information.

Uh, huh, but if one plays with Leyland, as the critics of Dr. Evil do,
  Dr. Evil does play like sponge and does "disrupt [the] TRADITIONAL
SPIN of [the] ball."

Why make Hardbat so complicated as the pro-spongecentrics have made
the "20th century game"?    Make Leyland or Leyland clones  the
standard.    Equalize the playing field with a standardized blade.
The idear of using trickery to win a game is anathema to your
quintessential Hardbatter uh huh, thank you very much.

Yours in HB,

Tandy G.
Promotion
Hardbat International




On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Jay Turberville <jay@...> wrote:
>
>> Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil. Why was it ever
>> approved? I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say on
>> the packaging that it produced weird spins.
>>
>> I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr. Evil and
>> it looked like he was playing with sponge. This isn't good for the
>> Classic game.
>>
>> The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous. Get rid of it.
>
> Have you actually ever played with this rubber? Based on your
> comments, I'm betting that you haven't.
>
> This rubber isn't exactly thick at about 1.7mm - though that does put
> it about .3mm thicker than the Leyland that I have. This rubber does
> not play like sponge. And it certainly does not sound like sponge
> either. I once suggested the rubber to a defensive chopper that I
> know and he decided it was far too slow and dead for him, but found
> that he liked it a lot if he used it with sponge.
>
> The package actually says two things regarding spin. "Strange Spin
> Changing Short Pips" and "Disrupts traditional spin of ball." But you
> need to keep those comments in context. First, marketing tends to
> exaggerate. If something is "good" the the package will probably tell
> you that it is "wonderful." Second, most people play almost entirely
> against players using inverted rubber over sponge. Anythng
> unconventional is "strange" to them. I found that playing with 802-40
> and 2.0mm sponge confounded a number of players. I've watched many
> players struggle to deal with short pips - never mind short pips with
> no sponge. Hardbat "spin continuation" and receiving balls that have
> weak or no spin is probably quite "disruptive" and "strange" for
> today's typical table tennis player.
>
> I've been playing hardbat with Dr Evil for a few months now and have
> found that the use of this rubber has lead me to strokes that
> capitalize on the notion of spin continuous far more than on strokes
> that attempt spin generation. It is not easy at all to generate a lot
> of spin with this rubber. Topspin can be done however, by using
> strong strokes that start very low and use a very open racket face. I
> suppose this might look like a loop to some, but it is a stroke that
> is far different than the loop stroke I use when playing with inverted
> - and the spin generation is a lot less.
>
> I've watched some footage of classic harbat matches and the strokes
> seem quite consistent with what I find myself doing with Dr Evil and
> hardbat. The face of the racket must be quite open and you must "roll"
> the ball off of the face of the racket while stroking upward if you
> intend to generate any topspin. The footage of these classic players
> made sense to me right away based on my recent experience using Dr Evil.
>
> While I'm sure not every player is going to love Dr Evil, in my
> experience it certainly does lend itself to classic hardbat play.
> There is simply no way you can perform loop stroke with this rubber.
> The ball with drop right off the face of the racket and onto the
> table. You'd be lucky if you could get the ball to even reach the
> net. I've played against other (non-approved) hardbat rubber that was
> much spinnier. This rubber is no spinnier than the blue Leyland rubber
> on my other racket.
>
> Last time I looked, there are currently only about six (maybe only
> five - I've found it hard to locate Andro Classic in the U.S.)
> approved hardbat rubbers that you can actually buy from dealers. You
> might want to investigate Dr Evil further before calling for its
> elimination from this already too short list.
>
> Dr Evil
> Andro Classic
> Butterfly Orthodox
> Hallmark MagicPips
> Yasaka A1-2
> Yasaka Cobalt
>
> Jay Turberville
> www.jayandwanda.com
>
>

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 2:34 AM, Jay Turberville <jay@...> wrote:
>
>> Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil. Why was it ever
>> approved? I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say on
>> the packaging that it produced weird spins.
>>
>> I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr. Evil and
>> it looked like he was playing with sponge. This isn't good for the
>> Classic game.
>>
>> The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous. Get rid of it.
>
> Have you actually ever played with this rubber? Based on your
> comments, I'm betting that you haven't.
>
> This rubber isn't exactly thick at about 1.7mm - though that does put
> it about .3mm thicker than the Leyland that I have. This rubber does
> not play like sponge. And it certainly does not sound like sponge
> either. I once suggested the rubber to a defensive chopper that I
> know and he decided it was far too slow and dead for him, but found
> that he liked it a lot if he used it with sponge.
>
> The package actually says two things regarding spin. "Strange Spin
> Changing Short Pips" and "Disrupts traditional spin of ball." But you
> need to keep those comments in context. First, marketing tends to
> exaggerate. If something is "good" the the package will probably tell
> you that it is "wonderful." Second, most people play almost entirely
> against players using inverted rubber over sponge. Anythng
> unconventional is "strange" to them. I found that playing with 802-40
> and 2.0mm sponge confounded a number of players. I've watched many
> players struggle to deal with short pips - never mind short pips with
> no sponge. Hardbat "spin continuation" and receiving balls that have
> weak or no spin is probably quite "disruptive" and "strange" for
> today's typical table tennis player.
>
> I've been playing hardbat with Dr Evil for a few months now and have
> found that the use of this rubber has lead me to strokes that
> capitalize on the notion of spin continuous far more than on strokes
> that attempt spin generation. It is not easy at all to generate a lot
> of spin with this rubber. Topspin can be done however, by using
> strong strokes that start very low and use a very open racket face. I
> suppose this might look like a loop to some, but it is a stroke that
> is far different than the loop stroke I use when playing with inverted
> - and the spin generation is a lot less.
>
> I've watched some footage of classic harbat matches and the strokes
> seem quite consistent with what I find myself doing with Dr Evil and
> hardbat. The face of the racket must be quite open and you must "roll"
> the ball off of the face of the racket while stroking upward if you
> intend to generate any topspin. The footage of these classic players
> made sense to me right away based on my recent experience using Dr Evil.
>
> While I'm sure not every player is going to love Dr Evil, in my
> experience it certainly does lend itself to classic hardbat play.
> There is simply no way you can perform loop stroke with this rubber.
> The ball with drop right off the face of the racket and onto the
> table. You'd be lucky if you could get the ball to even reach the
> net. I've played against other (non-approved) hardbat rubber that was
> much spinnier. This rubber is no spinnier than the blue Leyland rubber
> on my other racket.
>
> Last time I looked, there are currently only about six (maybe only
> five - I've found it hard to locate Andro Classic in the U.S.)
> approved hardbat rubbers that you can actually buy from dealers. You
> might want to investigate Dr Evil further before calling for its
> elimination from this already too short list.
>
> Dr Evil
> Andro Classic
> Butterfly Orthodox
> Hallmark MagicPips
> Yasaka A1-2
> Yasaka Cobalt
>
> Jay Turberville
> www.jayandwanda.com
>
>

I agree with Jay's assessment.  Dr. Evil is the least spinny rubber on
the list with the possible exception of Leyland.  I say possible
because I have played with some Leyland sheets that are spinnier than
Dr. Evil.  When the packaging says "tricky spins" it is talking about
against sponge, not against hardbat.  Maybe the lihadors could loop
with it, heck they loop with sandpaper - but that would be some feat.

> Don't knock it till you try it. I'll be selling it in Vegas for
> $10.00 bucks a sheet for those interested.
> I will also be selling Yasaka Cobalt and A1-A2, and Butterfly
> Orthodox. See you there.
>
> Alberto Prieto
> www.valortabletennis.com

I assume you won't have a booth, but will be "at large" at the event?

Also, am I correct that Andro Classic is a bit hard to come by?  I
notice that you don't carry that one.

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com

Don't knock it till you try it. I'll be selling it in Vegas for
$10.00 bucks a sheet for those interested.
I will also be selling Yasaka Cobalt and A1-A2, and Butterfly
Orthodox. See you there.

Alberto Prieto
www.valortabletennis.com

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Tandy Goldberg" <gusikoff1959@...>
wrote:
>
> [Submitted to Yahoo Hardbat sit.  I haven't received any messages
and
> none of my messages have been posted in a long time.  What gives? ]
> Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil.  Why was it ever
> approved?  I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say on
> the packaging that it produced weird spins.
>
> I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr. Evil
and
> it looked like he was playing with sponge.  This isn't good for the
> Classic game.
>
> The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous.    Get rid of it.
>
> Yours in HB,
>
> Tandy G.
> Promotion
> Hardbat International
>

> Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil.  Why was it ever
> approved?  I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say on
> the packaging that it produced weird spins.
>
> I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr. Evil and
> it looked like he was playing with sponge.  This isn't good for the
> Classic game.
>
> The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous.    Get rid of it.

Have you actually ever played with this rubber?  Based on your
comments, I'm betting that you haven't.

This rubber isn't exactly thick at about 1.7mm - though that does put
it about .3mm thicker than the Leyland that I have. This rubber does
not play like sponge.  And it certainly does not sound like sponge
either.  I once suggested the rubber to a defensive chopper that I
know and he decided it was far too slow and dead for him, but found
that he liked it a lot if he used it with sponge.

The package actually says two things regarding spin.  "Strange Spin
Changing Short Pips" and "Disrupts traditional spin of ball." But you
need to keep those comments in context.  First, marketing tends to
exaggerate. If something is "good" the the package will probably tell
you that it is "wonderful." Second, most people play almost entirely
against players using inverted rubber over sponge.  Anythng
unconventional is "strange" to them.  I found that playing with 802-40
and 2.0mm sponge confounded a number of players.  I've watched many
players struggle to deal with short pips - never mind short pips with
no sponge.  Hardbat "spin continuation" and receiving balls that have
weak or no spin is probably quite "disruptive" and "strange" for
today's typical table tennis player.

I've been playing hardbat with Dr Evil for a few months now and have
found that the use of this rubber has lead me to strokes that
capitalize on the notion of spin continuous far more than on strokes
that attempt spin generation. It is not easy at all to generate a lot
of spin with this rubber.  Topspin can be done however, by using
strong strokes that start very low and use a very open racket face.  I
suppose this might look like a loop to some, but it is a stroke that
is far different than the loop stroke I use when playing with inverted
- and the spin generation is a lot less.

I've watched some footage of classic harbat matches and the strokes
seem quite consistent with what I find myself doing with Dr Evil and
hardbat. The face of the racket must be quite open and you must "roll"
the ball off of the face of the racket while stroking upward if you
intend to generate any topspin.  The footage of these classic players
made sense to me right away based on my recent experience using Dr Evil.

While I'm sure not every player is going to love Dr Evil, in my
experience it certainly does lend itself to classic hardbat play.
There is simply no way you can perform loop stroke with this rubber.
The ball with drop right off the face of the racket and onto the
table.  You'd be lucky if you could get the ball to even reach the
net.  I've played against other (non-approved) hardbat rubber that was
much spinnier. This rubber is no spinnier than the blue Leyland rubber
on my other racket.

Last time I looked, there are currently only about six (maybe only
five - I've found it hard to locate Andro Classic in the U.S.)
approved hardbat rubbers  that you can actually buy from dealers.  You
might want to investigate Dr Evil further before calling for its
elimination from this already too short list.

Dr Evil
Andro Classic
Butterfly Orthodox
Hallmark MagicPips
Yasaka A1-2
Yasaka Cobalt

Jay Turberville
www.jayandwanda.com

[Submitted to Yahoo Hardbat sit.  I haven't received any messages and
none of my messages have been posted in a long time.  What gives? ]
Hardbatters around here are questioning Dr. Evil.  Why was it ever
approved?  I mean the manufacturers of this rubber supposedly say on
the packaging that it produced weird spins.

I was watching a player play with his new thick bald with Dr. Evil and
it looked like he was playing with sponge.  This isn't good for the
Classic game.

The name "evil" and Hardbat are inconguous.    Get rid of it.

Yours in HB,

Tandy G.
Promotion
Hardbat International

Reed's Ginger Brew has put up a case of Virgil's Rootbeer (or Ginger
Brew) for the prize ($30+ value).

Will any Hardbatters be in LA this week to play?

Yours in HB,

Tandy G.
Promotion
HB International

It could happen at Mary's.  I love here more and more every time I
play at her USA VALLEY TABLE TENNIS CLUB.  If we could get a corporate
donor or someone well endowed to put up $50 for prize money the
interest in hardbat would manifest. ...Tonite she was excited about
Reed's Ginger Brew putting up a case for a HB competition this
week....Club phone 818 757 7201, address 7020.5 Reseda Blvd 91335

On 11/30/08, Reverend Gordon <sgordon@...> wrote:
> Back when the waiver was negotiated, it was made clear that it
> would not apply at the U.S. Open.  The NA Teams came up, but it
> was never clear to me whether the waiver applied at the teams
> or not.  As a tournament, it is similar to the U.S. Open in that
> it is a quasi-international event, and advertised as such.
>
> It's probably not useful to argue the case in terms of exceptions
> granted to Reisman... the officials often begrudgingly grant him
> some degree of latitude because of his popularity, and expecting
> the same latitude for the rest of us is just likely to make people
> angry at hardbat.
>
> However, I have always felt that there was no reason not to extend
> the waiver to the U.S. Open, since it is a USATT (not ITTF) rated
> tournament... at least that's true of the rated events.  As of
> now, we should probably assume that the officials are currently
> not allowing the waiver at the Open and the Teams, and if it is
> important to us, try and get that changed diplomatically.
>
> My recommendation for doing that would be to enlist the help of
> Mike Babuin, who is better connected with the board than any of
> the rest of us.  One way of arguing the case, is to point out that
> at the Spring Teams event two years ago (Reno) there was an
> all-hardbat team (and there have probably been other instances),
> and that it is in the best interests of the USATT to encourage
> all sorts of interested teams to play.  They allow people to
> wear funny costumes, which is clearly outside of the ITTF norm,
> so why not allow hardbat teams too?  We certainly aren't going
> to threaten anyone in the A or even B division.
>
> Rev.
>
>
> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "gnopgnipster" <gnopgnipster@...> wrote:
>>
>> I argued about it with the head umpire and he said the tournament
>> was  advertised as ittf on the entry blank. I said show me. He showed
>> me were it said USATT rules and ITTF rules would be followed. I said
>> it says USATT rules first, which includes the exemption. I also
>> pointed out the US OPEn of a couple of years ago and the argument
>> with Marty Reisman which Marty won. He had no real answer... But he
>> said he was told to enforce the ITTF regulations.
>>
>> --- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "Victor Kan" <victor.kan@> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:40 PM,  <hardbat@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
>> > > This sounds like it needs to be address at the upcoming meeting in
>> > > Vegas and Wendell Dillon and his minions need to be made aware of
>> the
>> > > USATT rules. The argument that this tournament was ITTF does not
>> hold
>> > > water since it is not ITTF rated.
>> >
>> > I think the issue is that at every level, not just the elite level,
>> > the Teams is an international competition (regardless of whether it
>> is
>> > counted for ITTF ranking points), and you'll likely be playing
>> against
>> > folks not covered by USATT exemptions, and therefore must comply
>> with
>> > ITTF regulations, which participants agree to when they sign the
>> entry
>> > form.
>> >
>> > The rules allow for non-compliance/variation, but it has to be
>> > specified on the entry form so that everyone involved knows ahead of
>> > time.  There is no reference to an exemption to the ITTF's two-color
>> > rule for hardbats in the NA Teams entry form.
>> >
>> > http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/hb.asp?s_number=3%2E01&
>> >
>> > I think you'll have better (for some value of "better") luck trying
>> to
>> > get NATT to incorporate the two-color exemption into its entry forms
>> > for its future international competitions than to get any admission
>> of
>> > error (and it's arguable there was no error).
>> >
>>
>
>
>

In the absence of an umpire, rules are nothing more than suggested
conduct.  Imagine you're up 10-5, and your opponent suddenly proclaims
he's ahead 10-5.  All the rules in the world aren't going to help you.
  So the only way anyone could expect the particular rule in question
to be of any value, would be to get the word out that that is the
suggested conduct of play.  Until then, a typical opponent is most
likely going to either be irked, or request an umpire.

--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, "wallyswoods" <wallyswoods@...> wrote:
>
> Look at the last page of current USATT Laws of Table Tennis on the
> website.  A category titled "Playing Without an Umpire" which we will
> be doing most of the time at the Nationals in Vegas.  In case of an
> edge ball, the player closest to the action makes the ruling, and it
> can't be disputed.   At the Open in July, Bob Palgon referred to this
> rule when he thought a ball missed the table at his end, but his
> opponent thought Bob volleyed the ball before it got to the edge.
> Everyone but Bob insisted that in this case they had to play a let,
> because there was no umpire, and the two players disagreed.  Bob did
> not have any printed rules then, but the next day he showed a
> printout of the rule to the umpires....all of them... they had not
> heard of the rule, and said it must be a misprint.  It was taken to
> Wendell Dillion and he said he wrote the rule, but now thought it was
> a mistake.  It is still the rule, but how will it be observed at the
> upcoming Nationals?  If the umpires don't believe it is a good rule,
> will we play lets when there is a dispute about an edge ball?  What
> about other rules.  Which rules will not be enforced?  If we don't
> like them, can we say they are misprints or mistakes?  I can
> visualize hitting a kill shot which I say hit the edge of the table,
> but my opponent says it missed.  However he was 10 feet behind the
> table and I was leaning over the table when I hit it.  Since I was
> the closest to the edge where the ball did or did not hit, I get to
> make the call and it can't be disputed.  Well, we probably should
> play lets...and maybe the rule will be rewritten someday.
>

Look at the last page of current USATT Laws of Table Tennis on the
website.  A category titled "Playing Without an Umpire" which we will
be doing most of the time at the Nationals in Vegas.  In case of an
edge ball, the player closest to the action makes the ruling, and it
can't be disputed.   At the Open in July, Bob Palgon referred to this
rule when he thought a ball missed the table at his end, but his
opponent thought Bob volleyed the ball before it got to the edge.
Everyone but Bob insisted that in this case they had to play a let,
because there was no umpire, and the two players disagreed.  Bob did
not have any printed rules then, but the next day he showed a
printout of the rule to the umpires....all of them... they had not
heard of the rule, and said it must be a misprint.  It was taken to
Wendell Dillion and he said he wrote the rule, but now thought it was
a mistake.  It is still the rule, but how will it be observed at the
upcoming Nationals?  If the umpires don't believe it is a good rule,
will we play lets when there is a dispute about an edge ball?  What
about other rules.  Which rules will not be enforced?  If we don't
like them, can we say they are misprints or mistakes?  I can
visualize hitting a kill shot which I say hit the edge of the table,
but my opponent says it missed.  However he was 10 feet behind the
table and I was leaning over the table when I hit it.  Since I was
the closest to the edge where the ball did or did not hit, I get to
make the call and it can't be disputed.  Well, we probably should
play lets...and maybe the rule will be rewritten someday.

Because Leyland rubber, the most classic of all hardbat rubbers,
cannot be found in black.  Leyland (or "Hock" rubber) came
standard on all Hock and Barna paddles for decades.  This is
the main reason for the waiver.


--- In hardbat@yahoogroups.com, Bror8588@... wrote:
>
> In terms of color on each side of a paddle what is the harm in just
> complying and put red or black or green or whatever on the paddles
and keeping  the
> two sides different?  A lot of energy gets wasted in wanting to be
right.
>
> JackW
>
>
> In a message dated 2008-12-01 00:46:27 Eastern Standard Time,
> sgordon@... writes:
>
>
>
>
> Well, I can't speak for the umpires, but I am planning
> to arrive under  the assumption that the waiver will apply.
> If anyone has any trouble in  this regard, I will happily
> volunteer to lead the charge in insisting that  it indeed
> does apply, as it has for the past several years.
>
> I have  frequently had to do this, so it wouldn't be
> the first time. In the past,  the main problem has been
> new umpires who simply didn't know the rule and  were
> hesitant to believe it.
>
> Lobo
>
> --- In _hardbat@yahoogroupshard_ (mailto:hardbat@yahoogroups.com) ,
> "gnopgnipster" <gnopgnipster@gno> wrote:
> >
> > Will the  waiver apply to the US Nationals in Vegas? The same umps
> > will be  there!
> >
> > --- In _hardbat@yahoogroupshard_ (mailto:hardbat@yahoogroups.com) ,
> "Reverend Gordon" <sgordon@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Back when  the waiver was negotiated, it was made clear that it
> > > would not  apply at the U.S. Open. The NA Teams came up, but it
> > > was never  clear to me whether the waiver applied at the teams
> > > or not. As a  tournament, it is similar to the U.S. Open in that
> > > it is a  quasi-international event, and advertised as such.
> > >
> > >  It's probably not useful to argue the case in terms of exceptions
> > >  granted to Reisman... the officials often begrudgingly grant him
> > >  some degree of latitude because of his popularity, and expecting
> > >  the same latitude for the rest of us is just likely to make people
> >  > angry at hardbat.
> > >
> > > However, I have always felt  that there was no reason not to extend
> > > the waiver to the U.S.  Open, since it is a USATT (not ITTF) rated
> > > tournament.. tournament..<WBR>. at  least that's true of the r
> > > now, we should  probably assume that the officials are currently
> > > not allowing the  waiver at the Open and the Teams, and if it is
> > > important to us,  try and get that changed diplomatically.
> > >
> > > My  recommendation for doing that would be to enlist the help of
> > > Mike  Babuin, who is better connected with the board than any of
> > > the  rest of us. One way of arguing the case, is to point out that
> > > at  the Spring Teams event two years ago (Reno) there was an
> > >  all-hardbat team (and there have probably been other instances),
> > >  and that it is in the best interests of the USATT to encourage
> > >  all sorts of interested teams to play. They allow people to
> > > wear  funny costumes, which is clearly outside of the ITTF norm,
> > > so why  not allow hardbat teams too? We certainly aren't going
> > > to  threaten anyone in the A or even B division.
> > >
> > >  Rev.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In _hardbat@yahoogroupshard_
(mailto:hardbat@yahoogroups.com) ,
> "gnopgnipster" <gnopgnipster@>
> > wrote:
> > >  >
> > > > I argued about it with the head umpire and he said the
tournament
> > > > was advertised as ittf on the entry blank. I  said show me. He
> > showed
> > > > me were it said USATT  rules and ITTF rules would be followed. I
> > said
> > > > it  says USATT rules first, which includes the exemption. I also
> > >  > pointed out the US OPEn of a couple of years ago and the
argument
> > > > with Marty Reisman which Marty won. He had no real  answer... But
> > he
> > > > said he was told to enforce the  ITTF regulations.
> > > >
> > > > --- In _hardbat@yahoogroupshard_
(mailto:hardbat@yahoogroups.com) ,
> "Victor Kan" <victor.kan@> wrote:
> > > > >
> >  > > > On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <_hardbat@yahoogroupshard_
> (mailto:hardbat@yahoogroups.com) >
> > wrote:
> > > > > > This sounds like it needs to be  address at the upcoming
> > meeting in
> > > > > > Vegas  and Wendell Dillon and his minions need to be made
> > aware of
> >  > > the
> > > > > > USATT rules. The argument that this  tournament was ITTF does
> > not
> > > > hold
> > >  > > > water since it is not ITTF rated.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think the issue is that at every level, not just the  elite
> > level,
> > > > > the Teams is an international  competition (regardless of
> > whether it
> > > > is
> >  > > > counted for ITTF ranking points), and you'll likely be
playing
> > > > against
> > > > > folks not covered by USATT  exemptions, and therefore must
> > comply
> > > > with
> >  > > > ITTF regulations, which participants agree to when they sign
> > the
> > > > entry
> > > > > form.
> >  > > >
> > > > > The rules allow for  non-compliance/ The rules allow for  no
> > > > >  specified on the entry form so that everyone involved knows
> > ahead  of
> > > > > time. There is no reference to an exemption to the  ITTF's two-
> > color
> > > > > rule for hardbats in the NA  Teams entry form.
> > > > >
> > > > > _http://www.ittf.http://wwhttp://wwhttp://wwhttp://wwhttp&_
> (http://www.ittf.com/ittf_handbook/hb.asp?s_number=3.01&)
> >  > > >
> > > > > I think you'll have better (for some  value of "better") luck
> > trying
> > > > to
> > >  > > get NATT to incorporate the two-color exemption into its
entry
> > forms
> > > > > for its future international  competitions than to get any
> > admission
> > > > of
> >  > > > error (and it's arguable there was no error).
> > > >  >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
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