Forgive me, Dennis, if i correct you on a points:

{see http://www.straightblastgym.com/why.htm which explains in
great detail what good mma gyms are about}

1.MMA does not focus on being good at everything. (MMA i repeat is NOT
A SINGLE ART!}

Generally speaking, mosts MMA hobbyist- if i may call em that, focus
on 1 art. I focus on Brazilian Jiu-jitsu. And because all arts that
comprise MMA are focused on Randori, improvement is made quickly far
quicker than by doing Katas- although i do appreciate their the
occasional use of Katas as an aid to concentration.

With one art as your foundation, you learn enough of other arts to
defend yourself against them.

Personally, during the standing phase of the fight-boxing, my aim to
keep a tight defense, close the distance & then take my sparring
partner to the ground.

If you had trained in at an MMA gym, you 'd realise few are ever "full
time gladiators" as you said.

In fact watch Mirko "Cro-Cop"'s fights in Pride. He is a world kick
boxing champion with a largely Muay thai background.

He is considered amongst the elite of MMA fighters yet as you can see
in his fights on google video, he almost completely avoids grappling.

He defends himself against grappling submissions well, but does not
execute them himself.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=cro+cop


2. Character Building is big part of MMA as well.

Dennis, you quoted the following about traditional martial arts.

"personal character buildng as well as loyalty to the group or clan
(Budo) and respect for teachers,using martial art as a tool"

"philosophy in daily living"

You seem to suggest MMA gyms lack these aspects. But you forget that
MMA gyms are under influence of Jiu-Jitus & Judo, esp Jiu-Jitsu.

Loyalty:

You would be surprised how much emphasis some Jiu-jitus cum MMA
schools place on loyalty. Having said that, the majority of
instructors also realise that Martial Arts is a business and it is a
free market. If you choose to switch to another school, they will
respect it.

Mutual respect:

Mutual respect is a cornerstone of Gracie philosophy and as such good
MMA gyms place great focus on mutual respect, and on creating a
friendly environment for pple of both sexes and all ages to train.

Humility:

Becaue all arts taught at MMA gyms are performance based, with 100%
resistance (in drills or when up against white belts, of course one
uses varying resistance, say 30% or 50%), humility is often enforced.
Be arrogant and someone is always ready to beat you down. And even if
you are high level black belt in Jiu jitsu, make one slip & a purple
belt (if not a white belt) could tap you out. You will not win
everyday every round and this teaches humility.






The instructors at MMA gyms always spar with their students!




Week in week out. They learn through and together with their students.
And the more they learn the more the can teach their students.
This makes the instructors closer to their students and also the
students readily respect them because of this. Bare in mind that their
best students would beat them. But mutual respect is maintained.

How many traditionalist dare to risk a loss against their students?
How many "Masters" continue training as hard as they did when they
were white belts?

Further more, we call our instructors by name. They know the respect
we have for them is there, without having to give themselves titles.

http://www.renzogracie.com/

Walk into Renzo's gym and shout "Hey Renzo!"

He 'll walk up to you and say " Hi, how are you, my brother?"

And he doens't know you at all! He's not offended. He doesn't care for
titles.


3. "Not so deep rooted?"

I'll need you to explain that further. Is that a statement of fact or
opinion?


4. The future of MMA

Your concern for the future of MMA and its various Arts is unfounded.

Bare in mind that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu and Judo as well as Sambo ve
lasted about a 100 years already.

Judo under Dr Kano had long been well organised popular. With numerous
Jiu-Jitsu schools and MMA gyms offering Judo, certainly Judo as its
sole anchor, MMA would surive.

But Judo is not the "sole anchor". Western Boxing has lasted hundreds
of years and wrestling has survived since Greco-Roman times -
thousands of years!

Muay thai has lasted generations in Thailand and is popular through
out the world.

A good place to train in MMA is the Bankok fight club.

http://www.bangkokfightclub.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Ite\
mid=26&lang=en



As long as these arts survive so will MMA.


5. I repeat: MMA is NOT an art on its own.

"It's good to train MMA as an adjunct to your core art. But you need
to faithfully stick to your core art to give you direction in your life."

Within MMA you choose your core art (for me it is bjj), and then a
little bit of other things and then you r considered an MMA fighter.

Again our friend Cro-Cop: He focuses almost entirely on Muay thai
skills in the MMA arena.

see his fight vs Brazilian Jiu-jitsu wizard Nogueira. Cro-cop was very
unfortunate to lose.

Even a professinal like him has Muay Thai as his core.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=cro+cop

Once again go back to google video.

"What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his
own soul"-a Bible quote."

IF HE LOSES HIS SOUL. As i've demonstrated, you dun lose your soul in
MMA.


Your entire argument against Mixed Martial arts is based on your
assertions that MMA gyms have

1.No philosophy

2.;that MMA is designed to be an ultimate art form. Which is it not.

3.Teach and train in too many techniques.

Judokas know lots of throws; how many do they regularly execute in
tournament? 2 or 3. Thats it. Many judo schools award black belts
based solely on touney performance these days.

Wrestling - there are really only 2 takedowns: the Double leg takedown
& the single leg takedown.

BJJ has 100s of techniques but u choose the few that work for you.

Indeed from white ble level to Black, the Armbar, Triangle Choke &
back choke continue to be the main submissions executed in tourneys.

The difference between white & black is more a matter of skill &
timing rather than knowledge of techniques.

Because grading in MMA arts is performance based, you r not tested on
the number of techniques you know but what you can execute.

This is in contrast to Traditionalist schools which require a certain
number techniques for each belt level.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

A final note to all readers : Don't take my word for it. Go out there
& search for library books on Jiu-jitsu, wrestling, boxing and MMA.

Read online articles(including the links i posted!)

Its your soul, and it's your decision.

----------------------------------------------------------------------












--- In hapkidoflyingeagle@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Chua" <hbchua@...>
wrote:
>
> Here's an intersting article from an MMA pratitioner in reply to
the article Hal submitted.(below)
> Any feedback for discussion.?
>
> here's one -a personal opinion on looking from a different perspective.
>
> I think the reason why there are so many disagreements between
traditional and MMA is the different emphasis that MMA and traditional
places.
> Traditional martial arts focus a specific skill eg. mainly kicking
and punching with a few take down and few grappling techs or
grappling ,throwing with a few kicks and strikes.Their focus if base
on traditional Asian martial art background is personal character
buildng as well as loyalty to the group or clan (Budo) and respect
for teachers,using martial art as a tool.Their emphasis is martial art
philosophy in daily living ,not so much as winning matches. They have
a proven system in sense of good organization and easy to transmit
this "package' for repeated generations.
> Since every body can only commit a certain amount of time for
training, it is quite a challenge to learn and be good at everything.
MMA tries to be good at everything, but even then ,certain players
will place empasis on techniques they like.The core is grappling.
> MMA interest startted from BJJ.If you look up BJJ history, it arise
because of questioning the rationale of certain traditional pratice
and techs for practicality.Hence emphasis is to win to prove this
point.Of course they have philosophies attached to it, but it is not
so deep rooted as compared to asian traditional martal art philosophy
with its long history on living in a society. Traditional asian
martial art arise from political situation of their time. ( This is my
personal opinion.I believe MMA practitioners will argue on this).
>
> The challenge for MMA's future is this.Can they transmit to later
generations successfully? Traditional martial arts with a good deep
rooted philosophy and organisational skills have proven to transmit to
several generations down.And majority of people prefer philosophy in
living ,and martial art as an added insurance if need arises, rather
than being in the ring. Majority just need certain skill to defend
fast and get out fast in a situation.
> They cannot afford to be full time gladiators. They have to work.
>
> A good example is Taekwondo.MMA practitioners can argue it has many
weaknesses, but why is it the world's most popular martial art today?
Why is the world's army still use TKD as the core martial art?
> Another is Aikido. It is still using traditional fighting techs,that
one can argue in today's context is not so practical.But why is it so
popular among the elite in society?
> Taichi is known as "utimate boxing" . "Ultimate" not to win matches
.but to win the match of life.-longevity. Martial art grandmasters of
hard styles still end up learning some form of taichi later in their life.
> The challenge for MMA to be able to pass down to many generation is
this.Does it have a deep sense of philosophy to attract the masses?
Does it have a uniformity to easily transmit to the masses.It is
difficult,because it is "mixed".Different instructors emphasise
differently, and are trained differently.
>
> So the question is akin to what you want in life.Do you want to
train an art for a certain period of your life or thoughout your life
.- eg a fast sports car , a family saloon car or an all terrain SUV
(Sports utility Vehicle). It's good to train MMA as an adjunct to
your core art .But you need to faithfully stick to your core art to
give you direction in your life. If not,after learning "all the
secrets of the world" you become empty and frustrated.
> As for me,the ultimate martial art is the one that lets me win the
"Match of life".
> "What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his
own soul"-a Bible quote.
>
> Dennis
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Kaiyi
> To: hapkidoflyingeagle@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Tuesday, May 16, 2006 10:49 PM
> Subject: [Hapkido Flying Eagle] Re: Ultimate Martial Art? The true
nature of mixed martial arts
>
>
>
> SELF DEFENSE AND MIXED MARTIAL ARTS:
>
> http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=mma
>
> the criticism of Mixed Martial Arts in the article is way off the mark.
>
> If you truly want to learn self-defense, learn from police officers &
> soldiers. Learn the psychology of criminals. Because a skilled
> criminal will NOT give you the chance to defend yourself. He 'll walk
> up to you in the dark and stab in the back. Self defense is about
> knowing how to identify bad situations (drunk gang members, dark
> alleys) and avoid them or worse come to worse you talk your way out.
>
> No mixed martial artist would ever claim to be able to fight 10 men,
> nor does any sensei who claims to be able to demonstrate so. If
> someone has a knife, most genuine self defense experts will recommend
> you run or pick up a chair to batter your opponent.
>
> The argument for learning Mixed Martials Arts as an aid to
> self-defense is this: If you are confronted and assualted by a clumsy
> thug or drunk who is unarmed, then what you learn on the mat & in the
> ring is highly applicable because you fight against a parter who is
> 100% uncooperative and that creates an experience as close as possible
> to a real fight in which your assailant will also be 100%
> uncooperative. In many streets fights 1 or more parties often fall to
> the ground. Much of mixed martial arts involves escaping pins by
> opponents WHO CAN STRIKE YOU FROM THE TOP WITH ELBOWS, KNEES AND FISTS!
>
> This is in contrast to many traditional arts where u learn patterns
> which have no resemblance to most human reactions in a fight.
>
> Randori is what gives you some real fighting ability. It gives you the
> timing you will need in a real fight. Will you ever use it? Prob
> never. Will it work? maybe not. which brings us a point of agreement.
>
> ~Select a martial art that brings you joy. Mixed martial arts should
> not be pursued simply because you view it as the means to being a
> great fighter. For many mixed martial artistes, mixed martial arts is
> a healthy pursuit for training the mind and body, a challenge. The
> same way one challenges oneself by playing chess. I love playing
> chess. And who knows one day i may give up mma to play chess? Unlikely
> but possible!
>
> Having said that, proof that mixed martial arts is generally healthy
> can be found in Pride & UFC. Although there are a few bad apples like
> Ricardo Arona and Ken Shamrock and Royce Gracie who are rude towards
> opponents, many opponents actually train together at one pt or another
> - helping each other improve! And look what happens at the end of many
> fights: the fighters embrace without malice and chi chat. And they say
> " lets train together sometime"
>
> Can you imagine Rudd Van Nisterooy telling that to Patrick Viera?
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> THE TRUE NATURE OF MIXED MARTIAL ARTS:
>
> Donny who? For me the author of this article should make up his mind;
> 1st he attempts to discredit wrestling (which is a large part of mixed
> martial arts) and then proceeds to say the Traditionalists can't
> defeat Sakuraba & Ken Shamrock which is true; traditionalists were
> annhilated in Mixed martial arts tourneys and indeed have been
> consistently defeated by Muay Thai exponents in boxing matches.
>
> A further clarification on the Nature of MMA; an mma fighter is NOT
> AIMING TO CREATE & DEVELOPE AN ULTIMATE ART. Rather an mma fighter
> simply aims to cross - train and become as good a fighter as he can.
> Many of them emphasize their original art; a Muay thai fighter in an
> mma tourney is one with superb boxing skills & with only decent
> grappling skills (search "cro cop" on google video).
>
> Mixed martial arts is NOT style in any sense of the word. All mixed
> martial artiste will normally know some Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
> and one or 2 wrestling moves.
>
> Nxt they 'd be equipped with a type of boxing: Take your pick from
> Savate/Western boxing/Muay Thai/Full contact Karate with boxing base.
> Many of them have NO KICKING SKILLS.
>
> And then may equipped in Sambo(Russian Judo) to yet more Wrestling or
> Judo. Indeed some Brazilian jiu-jitsu exponents are very poor with
> Judo throws and wrestling takedowns[i'm a prime example :( ].
>
> What all these arts have in common is that they all base training
> against a resisting opponent - in other words Randori.
>
> So as you can see MMA is not an art, merely a term for a sport(which
> aids self defemse) in which pple from all arts join and fight.
>
> A FINAL NOTE: Don't think MMA vs Traditional martial arts
>
> Traditional arts & mixed martial are not opposed. At Kreation Jiu
> Jitsu (at he budo academy) where i train, many of my fellow students
> have extensive tradtional backgrounds. They enjoyed traditional
> martial arts. I myself tried "Praying Mantis Kung Fu" whilst training
> at Kreation.
>
> I repeat, have fun and also be humble. Don't say my art will beat
> yours-my father will beat your father kind of nonsense. You won't be
> happy saying these things.
>
> Happy training whatever your art is!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- In hapkidoflyingeagle@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Chua" <hbchua@>
> wrote:
> >
> > Interesting article
> > DrChua
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: halcopeland@
> > To: HanMuDo@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, March 22, 2006 2:14 AM
> > Subject: [HanMuDo] Ultimate Martial Art?
> >
> >
> > I ran upon this article and thought I would share it with the list.
> >
> >
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> >
> >
> > -Hal
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > http://www.aikidojournal.com/?author=9
> >
> > Assumptions by Toby Threadgill Recently I was introduced to a
> gentleman interested in martial artstraining. He was not really aware
> of what I teach or of what constitutesNihon Koryu Jujutsu. He just
> assumed that because I taught it, that I mustbelieve it to be "the
> best". When I told him I did not believe the art Itaught to be "the
> best", an uncomfortable silence ensued. I finally brokethis taciturn
> moment by explaining that there is actually no such thing as a"best"
> martial art. Despite a noble effort to grasp what I was talkingabout,
> the gentleman in question eventually regressed, unable to shake
> theimpression that if I was not convinced that what I taught was
> superior toall other forms of martial arts, that I was somehow
> unworthy of teachinghim. I politely encouraged him to look around,
> consider what I had said and contact me again if he had any further
> questions. A few days later Ireceived an e-mail from this gentleman in
> which he explained that he had indeed found someone convinced that
> they taught the ultimate style ofmartial arts. It was called "mixed
> martial arts" because it embodied only the best of all the styles. I
> just smiled to myself as I politely responded, congratulating him on
> his fortuitous discovery. An ultimate martial art, huh? Now there's an
> oxymoron for you. Every Martial art is ultimately based on
> assumptions. In fact any training programformulated to address
> conflict is based on assumptions. It's kinda like the old joke about
> bringing a knife to a gun fight. No matter how good you are, your
> assumptions define your training paradigm. Narrow your assumptions and
> you specialize, gaining the opportunity to excel at one task. Broaden
> your assumptions and you might be able address many different
> situations but at what level of expertise? It's an intriguing dilemma
> isn't it? Specialize, and be defeated by someone outside your
> strengths. Be a generalist and Some specialist will hand you your head
> on a platter. What's a martial artist to do? Years ago my teacher
> Yukio Takamura taught a seminar which touched upon This topic. The
> seminar subject was a comparison between sport budo and Classical
> budo. During the lunch break a young karateka & wrestler, I'll call
> Donny, loudly dismissed Takamura Sensei's teachings as antiquated
> nonsense. Inresponse to this pronouncement Takamura shook his head and
> chuckled while fiddling with his shoes. Donny, rather brash and full
> of bravado turned to Takamura Sensei and said, "Now don't get me wrong
> old man, your stuff is fun to watch and all but your jujutsu is no
> match for my karate and wrestling.Takamura flashed a devilish smile at
> Donny and said, "Okay, show me". Donny backed off a bit at this
> unexpected challenge and said "Well, I'm not Going to fight you,
> you're too old. How about him" pointing at Dave Maynard.Takamura
> responded "No, you were talking about my jujutsu, not his. I Want you
> to show me." Rather pensively Donny strolled out onto the dojo mat
> with Takamura Sensei as a hushed silence overtook the room. At first
> Donnyappeared reluctant to do anything but when he noticed that all
> eyes were on him he revved up his courage and proceeded to execute a
> very nice double leg takedown, climbing up on what at first appeared
> to be a rather startledTakamura Sensei. As Donny attempted to continue
> his seemingly Successful offense we noticed something flick around
> Donny's neck. Suddenly, Donnytried to pull away, his head turning as
> red as a ripe tomato. In a fewseconds he fell over wheezing. At that
> point we realized that a shoelace was resting tightly around Donny's
> neck. Where had it come from? Takamura had secreted the shoelace in
> his sleeve and then executed a simple choke with it. As he revived
> Donny from his impromptu slumber he explained to thestunned witnesses
> that Donny had missed the point of the seminar altogether and made a
> dangerous assumption. He assumed that this was a contest with rules
> and that Takamura sensei was unarmed. The most interesting thing to me
> about this whole incident was that Takamura had deliberately pulled
> theshoelace from his shoe, placed it in his sleeve in plain sight and
> not one of us noticed. What a lesson rich incident this was..... Now
> I'm sure that some MMA proponents will roll their eyes at this
> Interlude and remark that it proves nothing. They will say venues like
> Pride and UFC prove you must do everything in budo well and that
> Takamura Sensei with a shoelace couldn't defeat the likes of Matt
> Hughes or Sakuraba. That'sprobably true and sounds convincing enough
> but such a dismissal misses the point. The truth is that to be
> successful in a venue like the UFC your time is best spent training to
> confront the challenges you ASSUME you will meet in the ring. Training
> outside such an assumption is a waste of time.However, drop a
> Portuguese knife fighter into the UFC ring and the Mixed martial arts
> guy will realize he's really not a mixed martial artist After all, but
> instead a specialist in unarmed sport conflict who hasn't "mixed"
> expertise in knife fighting into his supposedly mixed martial art...
> Those nasty old assumptions .... Now don't get me wrong, I greatly
> admire the technical efficacy and Extreme level of physical training
> the serious MMA practitioners like those in Pride or UFC display but
> outside the paradigm they train for they can be just As vulnerable as
> anyone else. It's not the individual version of MMA Itself that made
> guys like Rickson Gracie, Ken Shamrock, Sakuraba or Matt Hughes
> champions. It's really their creativity within each venues rules and
> The extreme level of training they have devoted to obtaining their
> skills. Each of these guys within the paradigm of what they do has
> trained himself to an extreme level. That's the real secret to the
> best style of budo.....Training intensity! So don't get hung up in
> training in the ultimate martial art. You will Be chasing assumptions
> forever. Instead pick an art that makes assumptions In line with what
> you value or desire and then train with a level of Dedication equal to
> what you expect to get from your martial art. If you're a Police
> officer this will probably be a very different from a college
> professor. In the case of the gentleman who contacted me in search of
> the ultimatemartial art, I guess it is human nature to seek out
> someone else's version of what's best when one has scant experience to
> base an opinion on, but it is amusing to note how many people studying
> martial arts beyond a beginners level fail to progress beyond the
> myopic view that there could be any such thing as an ultimate martial
> art. Remember, the only accurate assumption in budo is that your
> assumptions Are never 100% correct. Toby ThreadgillTakamura-ha Shindo
> Yoshin-ryu
> >
> >
> >
> > To have a friend subscribe, send them the link:
> http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/HanMuDo
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
>
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