Rather quiet as of lately,

Film:  “Negroes with Guns”
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/index.html

Viewer commentary over at PBS:
http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/negroeswithguns/talkback.html

Film homepage:
http://www.jou.ufl.edu/documentary/negroeswithguns/press.asp

Pistol packing liberal commentary:
http://interventionmag.com/Primary/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article\
&sid=81

Hope everyone is doing well.

Regards,

Xela



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If you aren't paranoid already.

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-privacy05.html

Mac

Since nothing was referenced in the post
it could have been grammer policement.
Michelle

--- Roger Metzger <metzger_r@...> wrote:

> I noticed you said "when" and not "if".  Are you a
> prophet or the son of a prophet?
>
>
> __________________________________________________
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> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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>


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kind of like the pot and pistols party.
michelle

--- Roger Metzger <metzger_r@...> wrote:

> So back to my suggestion of a few weeks ago.  Let's
> start a party which leans to the left on the first
> ammendment and to the right on the second.  I even
> have a suggestion for a name for the party.  If it
> is
> called the Repeal Party, one additional plank could
> be
> that we ought to be discussing every law which isn't
> being enforced.  Whether it should be enforced or
> repealed is not as important as getting people to
> think about whether it should be repealed or
> enforced.
>  The party position could simply be that one thing
> or
> the other should occur and that until one or the
> other
> does occur, government is responsible for teaching
> people disrespect (contempt) for, not just that
> particular law, but all civil law.
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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>
>
>
>
>


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Not if but when.


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I noticed you said "when" and not "if".  Are you a
prophet or the son of a prophet?


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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So back to my suggestion of a few weeks ago.  Let's
start a party which leans to the left on the first
ammendment and to the right on the second.  I even
have a suggestion for a name for the party.  If it is
called the Repeal Party, one additional plank could be
that we ought to be discussing every law which isn't
being enforced.  Whether it should be enforced or
repealed is not as important as getting people to
think about whether it should be repealed or enforced.
  The party position could simply be that one thing or
the other should occur and that until one or the other
does occur, government is responsible for teaching
people disrespect (contempt) for, not just that
particular law, but all civil law.


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory?id=1539613

It seems that google is censoring human rights violations in searches
conducted in its new China outlet so google isn't perfect either.

SHANGHAI, China Jan 25, 2006 — Google Inc. launched a search engine
in China on Wednesday that censors material about human rights, Tibet
and other topics sensitive to Beijing defending the move as a trade-
off granting Chinese greater access to other information.

Within minutes of the launch of the new site bearing China's Web
suffix ".cn," searches for the banned Falun Gong spiritual movement
showed scores of sites omitted and users directed to articles
condemning the group posted on Chinese government Web sites.

Searches for other sensitive subjects such as exiled Tibetan leader
the Dalai Lama, Taiwan independence, and terms such as "democracy"
and "human rights" yielded similar results.

Nothing like a trade off to make money.

Michelle

I feel like Benji has made the point pretty well, but let's take a
quick look at what our government has done in the past, and what it is
doing now. This is just off the top of my head, and I'm not a
historian, but I think you'll get the flavor.

During the great depression, tanks rolled through the streets of DC to
disperse the "bonus army," chasing them in to Anacostia.

The Japanese internment camps during World War II.

The House Un-American Activities Committee-
    -Are you now, or have you ever been a communist?
    -the "Naming of Names."

Hoover's FBI

Richard Nixon
    Watergate
    his "Enemies List"

Now we have a President that thinks:
1) It's OK to secretly wiretap US citizens on American soil without a
warrant (better yet, let the military do it. Why not get the subpoena?
because they can't meet the probable cause requirement for a subpoena)

2) It's OK to arrest American citizens on American soil as "Enemy
Combatants," and detain them indefinitely without seeing a judge based
on "secret evidence" (see number 1).

3) It's OK to use "stress techniques" to collect information from
"enemy combatants" (see number 2), not restricted by any International
Convention or from "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment."

Along with the FBI Investigating a host of activist groups for
terrorist activities including some Quaker groups (Quakers,
terrorists, get it?)

And let's not forget Carl Rove, who's belief in the righteousness of
his cause is so strong, he is willing to do anything to advance it.

So, given all of that (and more), I would prefer it if companies that
have huge amounts of data about me and mine didn't start fetching
dossiers every time the government whistles, without asking if it is
the right thing to do first. (And because this is on Yahoo, my dossier
just got a little thicker.)

On Mon, 23 Jan 2006, Michelle wrote:
> It sounds to me like your example proves just the
> opposite of what you are dreading. Yahoo by sharing
> info made it easier to bag the bad guy whereas google
> by stonewalling is making it harder to bag the bad
> guy.
>

I suspect what happened in the case Mac cited is that the local Sheriff
sent a subpoena to Yahoo requested the IP address(es) the posts in
question were made from. The Sheriff then went to the ISP(s) the IP
address(es) in question are assigned to and requested information about
the person(s) using them at them time the messages were posted to Yahoo.
I've seen similar requests come through my department.

What I find scary about the government's request is that it seems to be a
fishing expedition for bulk data. What if they decided that now that they
have this information it's okay to go beyond the ostensible reason it was
requested (defending the validity of the Child Online Protection Act(aka
COPA)) and do some data mining. How about we make a list of everyone who
has done a web search for the phrases "contraception", "abortion", "NRA",
"ammunition" and "democratic party" in the past six months and place them
under increased surveillance (hey, they like guns, might be terrorists,
better safe than sorry!). Maybe do a little warrant-less wire tapping?

But I'm just being paranoid, right? Our government would _never_ do
anything like this, would they?

	 benji (professional network geek and new member of the group)

--
Benjamin R. Cline Large Furry Mammal  brc@...
"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home."
         -- Edward R. Murrow

Hi Mac,

It sounds to me like your example proves just the
opposite of what you are dreading. Yahoo by sharing
info made it easier to bag the bad guy whereas google
by stonewalling is making it harder to bag the bad
guy.

You can't have it both ways. Either you like the
government to get the bad guys which you must or you
wouldn't have turned this guy in or you don't want the
government getting the bad guys.

Your behavior is closer to yahoo's than google's.If
you're paranoid of the government the solution is to
change the government not service providers.
imho,
MIchelle

--- Mac <shasinc@...> wrote:

>
> "regarding personal information, what you don't want
> public you shouldn't publish."
>
> It's not that simple, and I have an example that
> might clarify my
> point.
>
>  I am a retired state law-enforcement officer and a
> member of a yahoo
> group about cats. We had a guy join the group just
> so that he could
> disturb and sicken the group w/ his tales of torture
> and killing of
> cats and other animals. He also bragged that he had
> done the same to
> at least a couple of girls. A true sicko.
>  I went with the information to our local Sheriff
> who happens to be
> very pro-active in dealing with on-line predators.
> He has busted 7 or
> 8 pedophiles and assists w/ lots of investigations
> in other areas.
> Within three days he had *every* bit of information
> concerning this
> creep and had notified local and state PD, and the
> FBI. The creep
> became a "person of interest", placed under
> surveillance and was
> arrested trying to kidnap a girl at a shopping mall.
> He is now doing
> life w/o and will probably be killed in prison.
> (Inmates hate these
> guys!)
>
>  Here's my point; this guy was trying pretty hard to
> keep his
> identity a secret, but a local Sheriff knew his hat
> size in short
> order. Somewhere on the Internet is absolutely
> everything about you,
> I'm sure you didn't publish all this information,
> but it is there
> anyway, and remember nothing ever disappears
> entirely on the
> Internet.
>
>  There are a couple of things wrong w/ our
> government collecting this
> sort of information concerning our citizens. One, it
> is a violation
> of our privacy, it is none of their business! If I
> am not violating
> the law, then I have the expectation of being left
> alone. Second, it
> amounts to censorship,(Freedom of Speech issue)
> suddenly I must watch
> everything that I say and write.  Something I am not
> very good at.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     guntotingliberals-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

"regarding personal information, what you don't want
public you shouldn't publish."

It's not that simple, and I have an example that might clarify my
point.

  I am a retired state law-enforcement officer and a member of a yahoo
group about cats. We had a guy join the group just so that he could
disturb and sicken the group w/ his tales of torture and killing of
cats and other animals. He also bragged that he had done the same to
at least a couple of girls. A true sicko.
  I went with the information to our local Sheriff who happens to be
very pro-active in dealing with on-line predators. He has busted 7 or
8 pedophiles and assists w/ lots of investigations in other areas.
Within three days he had *every* bit of information concerning this
creep and had notified local and state PD, and the FBI. The creep
became a "person of interest", placed under surveillance and was
arrested trying to kidnap a girl at a shopping mall. He is now doing
life w/o and will probably be killed in prison. (Inmates hate these
guys!)

  Here's my point; this guy was trying pretty hard to keep his
identity a secret, but a local Sheriff knew his hat size in short
order. Somewhere on the Internet is absolutely everything about you,
I'm sure you didn't publish all this information, but it is there
anyway, and remember nothing ever disappears entirely on the
Internet.

  There are a couple of things wrong w/ our government collecting this
sort of information concerning our citizens. One, it is a violation
of our privacy, it is none of their business! If I am not violating
the law, then I have the expectation of being left alone. Second, it
amounts to censorship,(Freedom of Speech issue) suddenly I must watch
everything that I say and write.  Something I am not very good at.

i've never been able to figure out google but yahoo is
easy.
regarding personal information, what you don't want
public
you shouldn't publish.
Michelle
--- McGinnes <gun.toting.liberal@...> wrote:

> I was frankly PO'd that Yahoo would hand over any
> kind of information,
> especially to this administration, and glad to hear
> the Google didn't.
> I think it's a good indication about what will
> happen when the
> government does start asking for personally
> identifiable information.
> I think one also has to consider that Yahoo rolled
> over for the
> Chinese government as well.
> I am seriously considering moving everything to the
> Google group and
> shutting the Yahoo group down.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     guntotingliberals-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>


__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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I was frankly PO'd that Yahoo would hand over any kind of information,
especially to this administration, and glad to hear the Google didn't.
I think it's a good indication about what will happen when the
government does start asking for personally identifiable information.
I think one also has to consider that Yahoo rolled over for the
Chinese government as well.
I am seriously considering moving everything to the Google group and
shutting the Yahoo group down.

I thought this was it.


__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I understand that google is holding firm for the wrong
reasons, not that they care about us but that they are
protecting their information.

I have no intention of leaving yahoo for google.

--- hawkeye_629 <hawkeye_629@...> wrote:

> I see that Yahoo caved in to the demands of the
> empire and turned over
> all their data on users. I know that the information
> asked for is non
> identifiable by individual but it is a dangerous
> first step. Google on
> the other hand is holding firm. I suppose I should
> change my home
> page. Too bad there isn't a pro gun, pro
> constituitional search engine
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     guntotingliberals-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
>
>
>


Michelle

My mind is a garden.
My thoughts are the seeds.
My harvest will be either flowers or weeds.
~ Mel Weldon

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

I see that Yahoo caved in to the demands of the empire and turned over
all their data on users. I know that the information asked for is non
identifiable by individual but it is a dangerous first step. Google on
the other hand is holding firm. I suppose I should change my home
page. Too bad there isn't a pro gun, pro constituitional search engine

Yep, most CZ fans I've met tend to be pretty diehard....


Xela wrote On 01/17/06 13:52,:
> That's one cool CZ-75, Brandon.
>
> Say, anybody notice Edward Norton at the movies?
>
> http://imdb.com/name/nm0001570/
>
> To me it looks like he has a personal preference for the CZ-75 while filming,
anybody noticed the same?
>
> I think I've seen about two of his films where he uses a CZ-75.
>
> Xela
>
> P.S.  I'll try to see if I can get back to the straw man purchase
conversation, still trying to catch up from the holidays at work.
>
>
>  --- On Tue 01/17, Brandon Chase < Brandon.Chase@... > wrote:
> From: Brandon Chase [mailto: Brandon.Chase@...]
> To: guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:10:06 -0700
> Subject: [guntotingliberals] CZ 75 pic
>
> <html><body>
>
>
> <tt>
> Hi all,<BR>
> <BR>
> Finally posted a pic of my CZ 75B single action....<BR>
> <BR>
> Cheers,<BR>
> <BR>
> Brandon<BR>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
> The most personalized portal on the Web!
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

--
------------------------------------------------------------

Brandon Chase
Sun Microsystems, Inc.
500 Eldorado Blvd.  M/S UBRM04-145
Broomfield, CO 80021

phone: (303) 272-5256
fax: (303) 272-5758
email: brandon.chase@...

That's one cool CZ-75, Brandon.

Say, anybody notice Edward Norton at the movies?

http://imdb.com/name/nm0001570/

To me it looks like he has a personal preference for the CZ-75 while filming,
anybody noticed the same?

I think I've seen about two of his films where he uses a CZ-75.

Xela

P.S.  I'll try to see if I can get back to the straw man purchase conversation,
still trying to catch up from the holidays at work.


  --- On Tue 01/17, Brandon Chase < Brandon.Chase@... > wrote:
From: Brandon Chase [mailto: Brandon.Chase@...]
To: guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 10:10:06 -0700
Subject: [guntotingliberals] CZ 75 pic

<html><body>


<tt>
Hi all,<BR>
<BR>
Finally posted a pic of my CZ 75B single action....<BR>
<BR>
Cheers,<BR>
<BR>
Brandon<BR>


_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!

Hi all,

Finally posted a pic of my CZ 75B single action....

Cheers,

Brandon


------------------------------------------------------------

To Xela, et. al.:
You might consider this a hopelessly naive suggestion.
  But for every minute spent and every dollar invested
in specific “fixes” for specific problems, we need to
spend at least another minute or another dollar
working on the more basic problem, which is a culture
of non-compliance.
	 I worked for a couple of years driving busses for two
different companies in two different kinds of
businesses.  In each case, it was customary for
customers to offer the drivers tips, which was
acceptable to the companies and entirely legal.  But
in each of those companies, every driver I knew would,
without hesitation, admit to not reporting all of the
tips to the IRS.
	 I have no particular opinion that IRS rules SHOULD
require reporting such tips.  But at the time I was
driving the busses, that was the rule.
	 If people think the rules should be changed, they
should work to get the rules changed.  My point is
that every one of those drivers thought I was crazy to
report all of my tips to the IRS.  But I did.  Every
penny.
	 Maybe some people think that it’s OK to cheat “the
Government”, but for me to fail to report the tips as
required would be to cheat every other taxpayer or at
least every honest taxpayer.
	 My perception is that if people who drive busses for
a living are willing to cheat on their taxes, people
with more financial resources are even more likely to
do so.
	 What to do?
	 While it may not be possible to devise a tax system
which would seem fair to everyone, it is certain that
a tax system no one can understand will be considered
unfair by almost everyone.
	 So, partly to encourage a culture of compliance, we
need (some people would say desperately) to devise a
tax system which the average fifth-grader can
understand.
	 To do so, would, of course, require that we attend to
a number of other details in the process of changing
over from the mess we have now.  But how’s this?
	 A flat tax RATE combined with a personal allowance
for every adult citizen.  Then count that allowance as
income for purposes of determining eligibility for all
government programs.  Because of the personal
allowance, this is not a “flat tax”, it is a
progressive tax.  And Congress can adjust the tax rate
(percentage) and the amount of personal allowance as
the voters see fit.  For one thing, it would be
possible for every voter to understand the tax system
well enough to know how to advise members of Congress.
	 Example # II.  For every letter you (we) write to
Congress or our state legislatures about protecting
our right to defend ourselves, we should also write a
letter to state officials demanding that traffic laws
be more strictly enforced.  The likelihood of being
killed by people who think they are in a hurry or are
distracted because they are engrossed in a cell-phone
conversation is much greater than that someone with a
handgun will kill me.  But more importantly, the
noncompliance citizens observe on the highway on a
daily basis is encouraging a general culture of
noncompliance and a mentality of noncompliance.
	 Maybe some other guntotingliberals can think of even
better examples than the two I have mentioned here.





__________________________________________
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Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com

I think this article is blown out of proportion.  The stores I go to dont
allow straw purchases if they can see what is going on.  In addition, see
what happens if you buy a bunch of handguns in a short amount of time...NICS
will ping the ATF if you buy 5 handguns in a week or some such.
If enforcing gun crime statutes were as rigidly enforced and allowed prison
space the same way drug crime was...I think you would see a noticable
difference.
And just a point of contention, Taurus are relatively inexpensive but modern
Taurus guns are not "cheap" they are of prety good quality from what I have
fired.  Hi-Point...I wouldnt buy one, but I have the money for better guns.
I guess those of modest means cant own guns.

George

>
> How can straw man purchases be controlled before they chip away our
> freedom?
>

Um, make it illegal?? Oh yeah, it already is, both for the store and the
buyer.  Club-Fed time if caught.

Seriously, how different is this than say, buying 20 cases of Sudafed to
make meth? It really shouldn't be that hard to figure out for law
enforcement.

Here in Central TX, I've talked to a few stores and they catch people
trying it every so often, but it's pretty unusual and usually pretty
obvious.

I think the NY folks are exaggerating the problem a bit to try and enforce
their will on other states... How many pounds of guns does a criminal
need?  How many tons of illegel drugs are on their streets?

Greetings GTL!!!

And Happy New Year to you all...

Got to read this one very recently.

How can straw man purchases be controlled before they chip away our freedom?

This is a BIG problem in my neck of the woods (Texas/Mexico border).

Xela

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/content/articles/051226ta_talk_collins

The New Yorker

The Talk of the Town


CONTRABAND DEPT.
MAGNUM P.I.S
by Lauren Collins
Issue of 2005-12-26 and 2006-01-02
Posted 2005-12-19

West Nile fever and bedbugs behind us, the city was rife last week, after the
back-to-back murders of the policemen Dillon Stewart and Daniel Enchautegui,
with talk of another plague: illegal guns. Twenty thousand uniformed officers
showed up for each funeral, Mayor Bloomberg challenged legislators to “stand up
and start doing something about this terrible scourge,” and the Post introduced
a special logo featuring a compact pistol and the words “The Gun Menace.”

Amid this burst of activity, Jim Mintz, a private investigator, was working
quietly behind the steel doors of his Tribeca office. Mintz is the principal of
the James Mintz Group, a firm whose employees include former officials from the
F.B.I., the N.Y.P.D., and Scotland Yard, and which has helped such institutions
as Reebok, Morgan Stanley, the Beatles, and Ivana Trump unearth, as Mintz once
wrote, “dirty little secrets.” About a year ago, Mintz was hired by the city to
assist with its anti-gun lawsuit, which seeks to hold gun manufacturers and
distributors responsible for turning a blind eye to the illegal gun trade.
Mintz’s task is to trace the flow of firearms into New York City.

“It’s I-95, on down,” Mintz said, sitting at a conference table. “You drive to
North Carolina or Georgia and find a person who has a driver’s license—you can
buy ten or fifteen guns at once.” (Ninety-two per cent of the illegal guns
recovered in New York City between 1998 and 2003 were from out of state.) For
the past few years, investigators have been gathering information on the gun
shops that sell weapons to New York traffickers. Eric Proshansky, a lawyer for
the city who is working on the suit, chimed in: “They’re often mom-and-pop
stores out in the woods.”

Mintz got up and walked over to a giant chalkboard. “Here’s what happens,” he
said, and began to draw a flowchart. “You have the manufacturer, who trucks the
boxes over to the distributor, who delivers the guns to the dealer, a store, or
a pawnshop. In walks the straw man.” He explained that a straw man is a person
to whom a criminal pays twenty-five or fifty dollars to buy a gun on his
behalf—a more sinister version of the underage drinker’s “Hey, Mister”
procurement scheme. The straw man is often a woman. “It could be an attractive
woman, or a woman on welfare who needs the money badly,” Proshansky said.
“Often, the trafficker is standing right next to her, doing all the shopping,
handling the guns, asking the prices,” Mintz said. “The dealer can see the
trafficker counting out the money right there.”

Inexpensive pistols are a mainstay of the black market. “The old term is
Saturday-night special,” Proshansky said. “Now you’ve got Hi-Point, which makes
a small, easily concealable handgun that turns up in a lot of crimes,” he said.
(In a voluminous online discussion of “What kind of man buys a Hi-Point?” one
respondent compared the guns to “cheap pisswater beer.” The company’s marketing
aims low, too. “Don’t Be Discouraged by the ‘Gun Snobs,’ ” a brochure reads.)
Proshansky continued, “Taurus, a Brazilian company, also makes cheap guns.”
Jay-Z refers to the brand in his song “Don’t You Know” (“Shit, I carry two
Taurus”); the company is included, along with makers such as Beretta, Smith &
Wesson, Glock, and Ruger, in the city’s lawsuit, which also names individual
distributors such as Chattanooga Shooting Supplies, Dixie Shooters Supply, and
Glenn Zanders Fur and Sporting Goods, of Baldwin, Illinois.

New York’s gun trade, according to Mintz, is carried out on a piecemeal basis,
mostly by small-time criminals. Retailing for as little as seventy-nine dollars,
a weapon can be had on the street for a couple of hundred. “These guys take
orders and drive down and fill them,” Proshansky said. “They talk on their cell
phones coming back into the city: ‘We’ll be there in a couple of hours!’ ”

Like collectibles on eBay, the most desired products come with intact packaging.
“They’re more valuable if they’re what’s called ‘fresh in the box,’ ” Mintz
said. “Wrapped up in newspapers isn’t as good.” (A used gun may come with
previous crimes attached.)

On December 2nd, a federal judge in Brooklyn ruled that, despite Congress’s
recent passage of a law that protects gun dealers from litigation, the city’s
lawsuit will be allowed to continue. One part of its case will be the testimony
of illicit gun dealers and straw men, dozens of whom Mintz and his team have
tracked down. How does he get them to talk? “They’re in jail,” Proshansky said.
“They don’t have anything else to do.”

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With all the attention given to the NSA revelations there are a few issues
that have not gotten attention from some of those who could be affected.

I worked on gateway switches for several dacades and know what is possible.

If the NSA is sweeping ALL DOMESTIC electronic communications trafic then
they have a database of EVERY LEGAL GUN PURCHASE in the US since the start of
the
NICS Check program.

It is of no significance that the Justice Dept deletes THEIR copy of the NICS
requests if the NSA is keeping THEIR intercept copies.

The same goes for ANY sensitive personal information, such as everybody who
called an abortion service provider.

Once the NSA has this data, searching it for NICS checks, calls to abortion
service providers, etc. is VERY easy.

I am not saying that the NSA is actually doing this right now, just that they
CAN do it and that is why there has to be oversight of their operation.

Abe


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

05Dec30e Roy @ guntotingliberals
	 I don’t remember whether I specified in which matches
we were shooting from a seated position and in which
we were shooting offhand.  As I recall my numbering of
the matches for my e-mail to guntotingliberals, it was
match # 1. and match # 4 in which we did our shooting
from a seated position (the first shoulder gun match
and the first handgun match).  The other matches were
shooting offhand.
	 I think I’ll have a better idea of how well my
friends and relatives compare to your scores if you
will tell me whether the scores you indicated would be
how well you shoot seated or offhand.
Someday, I may want to ask my friends to also shoot
from a kneeling position and prone.  But so far,
perhaps because so many of my friends and relatives
are liberals, they haven’t been exactly falling over
themselves for a chance to shoot my guns or my wife’s.
  I don’t expect to get into timed competition until we
can find people who a. are careful enough handling
guns during paper target meets and b. can go with us
to shoot out in the desert.  My wife’s schedule and
mine have been such as seldom have allowed us to go
out of town on Saturdays or Sundays.
	 I don’t let anyone under 16 shoot my guns and I don’t
let anyone over 16 shoot my guns when children are in
the party.  I made one exception this year.  His dad
was “supervising” but sure enough, the kid (I’m sure
it was unintentionally) pointed his gun at me while
cocking it.  I expect I’d be able to sample a larger
number of shooters scores if I’d invite parent/teen
teams.  But maybe it is my “liberal” views which
prevent me from doing that.
	 With the exception of some nail polish on one of the
front sights, the guns we have been using are
out-of-the-box.






__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL – Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com

the G37 has a 10 round magazine. although i have read that it is
difficult to get the tenth round into the mag.












--- In guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com, Brandon Chase
<Brandon.Chase@S...> wrote:
>
> Hi Milt,
>
> Welcome to the group.  I did some reading on the .45 GAP
> recently....looks legit, and speaking as someone with small-ish
hands, i
> can definitely appreciate the idea of squeezing a .45 into a 9mm
frame.
>
> How many rounds does the Glock 37 hold?
>
> Cheers,
>
> Brandon
>
> milt wrote On 12/29/05 14:19,:
> > hi everybody. i found this link on progun progressive. :) i am in
> > allentown, PA. i am so glad i found other liberal gun owners.
anyway, i
> > am waiting for my glock 37 to come. it should be here tonight or
> > tomorrow. i am giving the .45 GAP a try.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> ------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Brandon Chase
> Sun Microsystems, Inc.
> 500 Eldorado Blvd.  M/S UBRM04-145
> Broomfield, CO 80021
>
> phone: (303) 272-5256
> fax: (303) 272-5758
> email: brandon.chase@s...
>

Hello in Allentown, what a lovely surprise!:D I live a little over an hour and a
half north of you and have only just recently found this group myself.  My
sentiments echo yours completely, regarding the finding of other individuals who
are liberal gun-owners.  (Nice to know that neocons don't have all the guns,
much as I'm sure they'd strongly prefer to have it that way.)

Anyway, nice meeting you and hope to talk to you whenever time permits.:)


--- In guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com, "milt" <sceptical1@e...> wrote:
>
> hi everybody. i found this link on progun progressive. :) i am in
> allentown, PA. i am so glad i found other liberal gun owners. anyway, i
> am waiting for my glock 37 to come. it should be here tonight or
> tomorrow. i am giving the .45 GAP a try.
>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Roger, I was going through my e-mail backlog and found this.  I like
the standardized approach even though it doesn't quite fit my competition.
  I'm more into the dynamic pistol sports-- IPSC, Steel, IDPA, GSSF, Pins,
etc where pinpoint accuracy is less important than 'good enough, fast
enough'.

For example, in the Steel Challenge, the hardest target is a 12" steel
plate at 25 yards and all it needs is one hit (more or less).  In IPSC
you'll occasionally see targets all the way out to 50 yards, they're a
oouple feet across and three high... but the clock is always running.

That said, for anybody, the more accuracy you can draw upon, the better
off you are, especially in clutch situations, matches or wherever, and
it's a whole lot harder to standardize a drill like that.

I've got a ton of practice (and time and $..) invested in my competition
pistols so with no time limit and a red-dot-sight, I'd expect to hit 60's
on this drill most of the time.  Using my iron-sighted competition guns,
55 and up would be good.  With an off-the-shelf gun, 4" at 10 yards is
about what I shoot for and honestly that's plenty good enough to finish in
the top 10% at a major match if everything else is together.

Now with a rifle.. eek.  stand back... way back.. and maybe hide behind
something :-)

I'll give it a shot next time I get to the range.

- Roy

> How well do you guys shoot?  That some of you have won
> first or second place is interesting, but how well do
> you have to shoot to win?
...
>      So I asked our son to design targets for me that
> could be described to anyone who understands English.
> White paper targets.  Bull's eye = one inch circle =
> ten points.  Nine ring = two inch circle.  Eight ring
> = three inch circle.  Seven ring = the bull = four
> inch circle (space between seven ring and eight ring
> is black, this so a shooter too far away to see the
> other rings can at least see the bull).  Six ring =
> five inch circle.  Etc.
...
>      Also, scoring is diffrent than NRA.  This to give
> no advantage to larger calibers.  If you can tell on
> which side of a ring is the greater portion of the
> bullet (or pellet) hole, cutting the ring is of no
> consequence.  If you can't tell, you take the lower
> score plus a half point.
...
>      Hand guns.  All from 25 feet.  What are your
> scores seated?  Offhand?

Hi Milt,
Welcome aboard. I'm near Santa Cruz, CA.
~Michelle~

The art of being happy lies in the power of
extracting happiness from common things.
~Henry Ward Beecher

hi everybody. i found this link on progun progressive. :) i am in
allentown, PA. i am so glad i found other liberal gun owners.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]