I'm trying to decide whether or not to continue my membership in the
NRA. I know the argument about protecting our 2nd ammendment rights
but I find the NRA to be rather repugnent. The NRA appears to me to
be simply another fundraising arm of the Republican party. Their
publications and even their television efforts are so blatantly pro
Republican and unwilling to even give consideration to a pro gun non
Republican that it offends me. The Republican party has brought new
meaning to the word cynical. Such hypocritical whiners would not stop
their steady erosion of our basic rights at the 2nd ammendment. The
minute it was not politically advantageous or fit into their big
government , huge deficit plans, gun rights would become a thing of
the past. So I'm having difficult justifying my membership in the
NRA.  Someone convince me otherwise

Well I went shooting tonight and had a first. I was shooting some
loads in my 45colt and some in 44mag. Everything was fine until the
last 6 cartridges in 44 mag. I shot the first 5 in the cylinder and
then when I pulled the trigger on the last shot I heard a funny
little pop. I thought "oh crap"  Opened the cylinder and looked in
the barrel and sure enough I had a squib. Almost at the end of the 5
inch barrel of my SW 629 was a shiny Rainier 240gr stuck in the
barrel. I have never had a squib but I have had some problem with my
Hornady powder measure and loaded these 44's in a  hurry without
checking each of them. Thankfully I caught it before I pulled the
trigger on another round. That would be a nasty suprise. Of course
now I have to get a dowel and drive that bullet out of my 629. I
should know better than to load in a hurry. Kind of like drinking
beer and loading at the same time.

The "one gun a month" law only applies to handguns and only if they
are new.  You can buy as many as you want if they are used, private
party, consignment, whatever.  Though it would invite scrutiny from
the DOJ if you were to buy more than say 5 at a time.

I hear people frequently say "Well when the Assault weapon Ban expires
I'll get to buy...." These people have no idea that California law
supercedes the Federal AWB.  Our AWB isn't going away, nor is the one
in Massachusettes or I think NY.

--- In guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com, <r@s...> wrote:
> CA gun laws are a nightmare from my point of view (which is that of an
> out-of-state competition shooter)-- The "Assault weapons" ban prohibits
> many of the most commonly used pistols for one silly reason or another,
> and the over-10-round magazine ban doesn't allow for ANY selling,
> trading, importing, lending or borrowing of high-capacity magazines.
>
> That means if I want to go shoot competitively in CA, I'm stuck with
> either uncompetitive 10-round magazines (which I would then have to go
> buy at $50+ each) or breaking the law.  I'm not keen on either of those.
>
>
> CA used to be the top place in the world for pistol competitions and
> competitors, but is rapidly declining.  New shooters can't get the gear
> they need to compete outside of CA and outside shooters can't get in
> with what they've got that is perfectly legal in the other 49 states.
> They've already lost one world championship match and others are on
> their way out.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: michelle [mailto:safoocat@g...]
> Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:09 AM
> To: guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [guntotingliberals] california gun laws
>
> There is a list of guns that are banned in the state. Assault weapons
> are
> banned
> and I don't know what else is but there is a list.
> Michelle
>
> The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than
> you
> settled for.
> Maureen Dowd
>
> I have seen some people refer to a gun as not being ok to sell in
> California. I was wondering what that meant.

Hawkeye: They could start
with the asinine "war on drugs" nonsense.


Agree on that and it makes it hard to vote for Kerry when I know he supports
the war on drugs just like Bush. Both parties suck imho.
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

We have way too many lists these days. When did it happen that the
Republican Party became the champion of big government and ever
expanding deficits? I wish there was a viable party to support
reducing government and establishing fiscal responsibility. I've come
to the conclusion that legislatures , both state and federal, should
only be allowed to recind laws for the next 4 years. They could start
with the asinine "war on drugs" nonsense.

CA gun laws are a nightmare from my point of view (which is that of an
out-of-state competition shooter)-- The "Assault weapons" ban prohibits
many of the most commonly used pistols for one silly reason or another,
and the over-10-round magazine ban doesn't allow for ANY selling,
trading, importing, lending or borrowing of high-capacity magazines.

That means if I want to go shoot competitively in CA, I'm stuck with
either uncompetitive 10-round magazines (which I would then have to go
buy at $50+ each) or breaking the law.  I'm not keen on either of those.


CA used to be the top place in the world for pistol competitions and
competitors, but is rapidly declining.  New shooters can't get the gear
they need to compete outside of CA and outside shooters can't get in
with what they've got that is perfectly legal in the other 49 states.
They've already lost one world championship match and others are on
their way out.

-----Original Message-----
From: michelle [mailto:safoocat@...]
Sent: Tuesday, August 31, 2004 10:09 AM
To: guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [guntotingliberals] california gun laws

There is a list of guns that are banned in the state. Assault weapons
are
banned
and I don't know what else is but there is a list.
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than
you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

I have seen some people refer to a gun as not being ok to sell in
California. I was wondering what that meant.

There is a list of guns that are banned in the state. Assault weapons are
banned
and I don't know what else is but there is a list.
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

I have seen some people refer to a gun as not being ok to sell in
California. I was wondering what that meant.

Too much of anything gets tiresome quick. I have seen some people refer to a gun
as not being ok to sell in California. I was wondering what that meant. I wish
Iowa had your cc laws. Here it is at the total discretion of the county sheriff.
A lot of them are anti cc so they just don't issue permits. There have been
attempts to change the law to "shall issue" instead of "may issue" but they have
not been successful. With are current Governor I'm sure he would veto any such
law anyway. Interestingly the marksmanship portion of the cc class requires a
much higher score than they require of law enforcement

michelle <safoocat@...> wrote:Hi Hawkeye,

The law says you can buy only one gun a month so I was being cute and tried
to keep up
by buying a gun every month but it got old quick. Afaik California may be
better for guns
than Iowa as some counties here have shall issue and the permit in one
county is good in
the entire state.
best,
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

Michelle I keep reading about California gun laws and the one gun a
month law but could you explain a little more. Obviously the one gun
refers to limiting your purchases but are there other restrictive
laws?


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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Hawkeye,

The law says you can buy only one gun a month so I was being cute and tried
to keep up
by buying a gun every month but it got old quick. Afaik California may be
better for guns
than Iowa as some counties here have shall issue and the permit in one
county is good in
the entire state.
best,
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

Michelle I keep reading about California gun laws and the one gun a
month law but could you explain a little more. Obviously the one gun
refers to limiting your purchases but are there other restrictive
laws?

Michelle I keep reading about California gun laws and the one gun a
month law but could you explain a little more. Obviously the one gun
refers to limiting your purchases but are there other restrictive
laws?
I'm envious of your too full safe problem. Never thought about
evacuation and what that would mean but your concern makes a lot of
sense. In Iowa we only have to worry about tornadoes and they don't
give  you time to evacuate. If you decide to lighten your safe let me
know, I may be able to help. Unless California has laws against
private sales

Hawkeye writes: I'm finding guns to be a bit addictive, there's always just
one more I
need.

I was once addicted to collecting guns too especially back when California
passed the one gun a month law and I tried to keep up but after awhile my
gun
safe was full so I had to slack off.

Now I'm actually feeling like I have too many guns. There are several
reasons.
We live in a fire zone and if a forest fire every came through here the more
guns
I have the more difficult it will be to get them all out in time. Secondly
when we
go on vacation it's also worrisome knowing you have a bunch of guns at home
but
for a person that's just got a few, say their carry piece and one or two
others it
wouldn't be a big factor.

So I don't plan on buying any more guns for awhile and if I do I'll be
looking to
lighten up on some I already own. My last purchase was an antique .410
single shot
I found at a garage sale.
cordially,

Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

I'm finding guns to be a bit addictive, theres always just one more I
need. Reloading for them adds to the interest given the myriad of
load combinations. I don't currently have a 40 SW but that will
likely be my next acquisition. I'm considering a CZ. I keep seeing
good things about them and the few I've actually handled seem to fit
my hand well. They make a model designed for IPSC which is very nice.
I don't know much about the 45 GAP but I doubt that it will replace
the 45ACP. 1911's have an almost cult like following and I have to
admit I'm really fond of them. I have two , a Kimber Gold Match and a
Dan Wesson chambered in 9mm. I just like the feel and balance.
In regard to the 45AR I shoot those in a SW 625 revolver. Its
designed for 45 ACP but needs moon clips to shoot them since they are
rimless. The AR is 45 ACP size cartridge but with a thick rim making
clips unecessary.
I don't shoot rifle but one of these days would like to give it a
whirl. I have an old Ithaca x 15 lightening that I got on my 16th
birthday. I should get it out and reacquaint myself with it

The only thing slightly "exotic" that I shoot (and reload for) is 7.62
Russian. I mostly shoot .303 British and 7.62 NATO.  I haven't started
reloading for any pistol calibers though if I get one of the Spanish
Star pistols in 9x21 I'd reload for it.

My favorite shooter is a Canadian Enfield No4 mk1/3 which started in
Canada, was aquired by England then sent to India where it was rebuilt
with a new barrel then sent to the US.  It looks new and shoots just
over MOA with my handloads.

Second favorite is a Remington Model 37 made in 1947.  This is a heavy
barreled .22lr target rifle that has aperture sights by Parker Hale
and Unertl scope bases.  Dime-size groups at 100 yards with the Odin
white boxed ammo from the CMP.

Anyone else like surplus foreign guns?

--- In guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com, "hawkeye_629"
<hawkeye_629@y...> wrote:
> Things seem kind of slow here in liberal, gun toting land. Thought I
> would share what I shoot and see if anyone else out there has any
> thoughts. Currently I shoot handguns, target only. I shoot
> 22,38,357mag, 32HRmag,45ACP,45AR,45Colt,44mag,9mm. Of those I reload
> all of them except 9mm and of course 22lr. I can't say I have a
> favorite caliber all of them are fun to shoot. Ok so what is everyone
> else shooting?

--- In guntotingliberals@yahoogroups.com, "hawkeye_629" <
hawkeye_629@y...> wrote:
>  I shoot
> 22,38,357mag, 32HRmag,45ACP,45AR,45Colt,44mag,9mm...

What, no .40 S&W?
I don't hear of many people shooting the .45 Auto Rimmed. What do you
have chambered for that round?

Have you looked at the 45 GAP, and what do you think of that round? I
have pistols in .40 and 9mm, that's it. I can't stop thinking about
the 45 GAP though. I keep thinking it makes the 45 ACP obsolete.

Hi Hawkeye,

I'm not shooting anything presently but that sounds like a nice
collection of firearms you have there.
best,
Michelle

The minute you settle for less than you deserve, you get even less than you
settled for.
Maureen Dowd

Things seem kind of slow here in liberal, gun toting land. Thought I
would share what I shoot and see if anyone else out there has any
thoughts. Currently I shoot handguns, target only. I shoot
22,38,357mag, 32HRmag,45ACP,45AR,45Colt,44mag,9mm. Of those I reload
all of them except 9mm and of course 22lr. I can't say I have a
favorite caliber all of them are fun to shoot. Ok so what is everyone
else shooting?

Obviously I'm a gun owner and enjoy shooting and that being said
support the concept of second ammendment rights. However the
Republican Party has done more than any other group in this country
to erode the bill of rights. The government continues to grow, the
deficet gets worse and the middle class slowly disappears. Fear is
use in the most cynical fashion to bludgeon all of us into
submission. I think it was John Adams who said " those who seek both
freedom and security will gain neither"

Thanks for inviting me in. Looking forward to discussion about
shooting sans the right wing nonsense usually found on gun sites.

Hi,

I just joined the group by invitation,
thanks to whoever invited me.

My partner Cathy & I both voted for Bush last
election but this election we are voting for Kerry.

I don't think it's wise to vote for Bush when your house
is on fire. We have to get rid of Bush, put the fire out,
then we can work on our other rites.

Remember it was the "best for guns" president who went to
guns and got us in this war. What good are gun rights to the
nearly 1000 dead GI's from the result of that fiasco?

cordially,
michelle

Not a whole lot has been happining on this board, and you guys have
been behaving yourselves, so I'm loosening my strangle hold on the
GTL group a little bit. I changed the settings so that our group will
be listed on Yahoo! groups, along with a couple of other things to
increase accesability. Members can now promote the site, and you
don't need an invitation to join, but I still have to approve new
members. I also invited a few more people that contacted me through
the GTL website.

Best Wishes,
Michael

I think Rod's got it right. I am not willing to give up any of my
rights, especially the right to keep and bear arms. While 'W'
nominally holds the same positions as Kerry (pro-Assault Weapons Ban,
supports closing the 'gun-show loophole,' etc.,) he knows where his
bread is buttered, and is not pushing those issues. But that is not
the only thing I'm worried about.

Gun rights are important to me, but so are:
The Right to vote
Free speech
Freedom of the press
Freedom of assembly
freedom from unlawful search and seizure
The right to due process
The right to a speedy trial
Seperation of Church and State
Equal protection under the law
The right to privacy
Right of habius corpus

I can name an instance where the Bush-Ashcroft administration is
violating, or has tried to violate each of these rights and freedoms.

Add to that a horrid economic record, a foreign policy that has left
us isolated in the world when we most need to be engaged... the list
goes on and on.

Here are a couple a couple of items in the news recently that make it
impossible for me to vote for Bush:

The FBI approached members the American Friends Service Committee, a
Quaker public service group that once won the Nobel Peace Prize, and
questioned them about terrorist plans for the Republican National
Convention. They asked them if they were planning any unlawful
activities, or if they knew of anyone planning unlawful activities.
They told them if they knew and didn't say anything, they were
breaking the law and would be arrested. This is just so rememnecent
of "Are you now, or have you ever been, a communist."
see http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=3855705
and
http://rockymountainnews.com/drmn/state/article/0,1299,DRMN_21_3066739
,00.html
  or google-news quaker and fbi

The other is the whole swift boat thing. Bush won't renounce an
obviously dishonest and dishonorable ad. When asked to, he
replies, 'we should get rid of all those types of ads.' (I have to
paraphrase, because Google is acting up.) Great, so instead of
showing leadership or taking some responsibility, he wants to quash
everyone else's right to free speech.

Congress follows the president's lead. The reason the
assault weapons ban is sunsetting is because the prez
isn't pushing it. That might be different under Kerry.
That said, we have to get our current preident out
before he turns America into a Haliburton subsidiary.
It's a tough choice...do I risk my guns or my civil
rights?

I keep reading how these guys are hunters and pro-2nd ammendment but
I think it's congress who makes the laws for the most part.  What,
if any, effect will the inevitable Kerry win do for shooters rights?

What do Aristotle, Susan B. Anthony and Kurt Cobain
have in common?

They're among more than 78 gender- and sexual-minority
celebrities who spoke out during the last 3,014 years
about arms including firearms and swords ... and now,
their words have been published by Stonewall Shooting
Sports of Utah owner David Nelson at the group's web
site http://www.StonewallShootingSportsUtah.org/. It's
the first time such an extensive collection of these
statements has been published.

SSSU is a group of gender- and sexual-minority firearm
advocates and owners in Utah, and supporters of the
Pink Pistols idea that was described nationally in
2000 by writer Jonathan Rauch for the legal, safe and
responsible use of firearms for self defense and
shooting-sport competition and recreation, including
those who are gay and lesbian, and that of their
families and friends. With more than 500 members, it's
also the largest such group worldwide.

=====
David Nelson
http://www.StonewallShootingSportsUtah.org/
Salt Lake City



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Anybody out there?  I havent seen any post here in a while.  I got
asked to join a while back.

       I agree that Bush isnt what I am looking for in many areas,
the problem is...
       Many issues like Gay rights for instance, the surveys say
Americans are changing on the issue.  The youth of america are much
more accepting.  The wind is blowing in that direction, albeit not
fast enough, and it will never shift.
       But for the uninformed masses guns will always be downhill
slide.  Once our rights to gun ownership are abridged we are not
getting them back...ever.
        SO for me, a heterosexual male in the military I am going to
vote for Bush.  I cant abide loosing my right to self-defense.  It
is making a deal with the devil but I didnt like Clinton either.
       I wish a mainstream candidate would run on a Constitution and
Bill of Rights campaign.  OBTW...Ashcroft may be ready to trample on
our civil liberties, but dont think that the Dems wont also. All
right I have run off at the mouth long enough.  Hope someone else is
monitoring this thing.

Election years are tough times for Gun Toting Liberals. While Bush and Kerry
nominally hold the same position on gun control (both say the support the
Assault Weapons Ban (AWB),  "closing the gun show loophole*,"  and
enforcing existing law, but do not plan on introducing any other gun laws), it
is
clear that they aren't going to act the same way. Bush has done nothing to
promote renewal of the AWB (IMO, a good thing), while Kerry left the
campaign trail to vote for an amendment renewing the ban, as well as an
amendment on "closing the gun show loophole." These amendments were
attached to a bill that would protect gun manufacturers from lawsuits over
people using  guns in the commission of crimes. To the best of my knowledge,
none of these suits has been successful, but defending against them is
costing gun manufacturers a lot of money. Some have speculated that the
purpose of the suits is hurt or kill the gun industry, which can be done even if
gun manufacturers never lose a suit. Kerry voted against the bill which would
have protected manufacturers from these kinds of suits, despite the fact that it
included the amendments to renew the AWB and to "close the gun show
loophole." One can only conclude that he feels that leaving manufacturers
open to these kinds of lawsuits is more important than renewing the AWB and
"closing the gun show loophole." This I find troubling.

On the other hand, Bush is good on guns, but is bad on every other social
issue important to me: abortion, education, the environment, civil rights, etc..
I
have struggled to put into words my opinion of his economic and foreign
policies. I keep coming up with words like, insane, stupid, horrendous, foolish
and complete failure. This is not a real argument, but I am so baffled and
infuriated by the things he has done, that I can't  discuss them rationally.

Then there is John Ashcroft who, I feel, would be most comfortable dressed in
either a brown shirt, or a black uniform with lots of metals. What else can I
say
about the man who spent $12,000 to hide justice behind a curtain, and who
wants the power perform searches and wiretaps without interference from
those pesky judges, and who wants to keep people in detention and not take
them before a judge or allow them to talk to a lawyer. Frankly, he scares me.
There are things I am not writing here because he scares me.

So, what do you think? Where do you stand? have you thought about
contributing to a campaign? What do you think about the Gun Toting Liberals
bundling contributions from it's members in order to get some notice?

* "Gun Show Loophole" is in quotes because there is no loophole. These
laws seek to ban the private sale of guns while at a gun show. Dealers at gun
shows are subject to all the rules and regulations they have to follow in a gun
store, including background checks. States can and do outlaw private sales at
gun shows, which mostly results in people walking around the parking lot in
order to make private sales. Personally, I would rather have them inside and
have some assurance that someone has checked to make sure that the guns
are unloaded. If a Federal "Gun Show Loophole" law is passed, I have little
doubt that we will soon be hearing about the "Private Sale Loophole" and
cries to close that.

I'm so glad to be a member of this group and look
forward to sharing ideas and information.

=====
David Nelson
http://www.StonewallShootingSportsUtah.org/
Salt Lake City

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Members now have permission to post pictures. I'm new to running a
board, so there may be a couple of rough spots while we figure things out.

Ok, we now officially have 2 members. One more and we can be
a conspiricy. Two more and we become a movement.
Anyway, I am mostly just feeling out how this works so this is
good.
I have fixed my e-mail for the group so that I actually get e-mail.
Also, I made Shred a moderator (so I could see how that
worked) but since it's just the two of us, we will have to be
content with moderating ourselves. Not to worry Shred, this
position comes with no responsibilities, other than keeping that
Shred guy in line. I wonder if you can ban yourself?

Enter your vote today!  A new poll has been created for the
guntotingliberals group:

Is creating a Gun Toting Liberals group
a good idea?

   o Yes, it's a good idea.
   o No, it's a bad idea.
   o It's a good idea, but I'm not interested right now.
   o Good idea, but shouldn't you be writing your Thesis?
   o No Opinion


To vote, please visit the following web page:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/guntotingliberals/surveys?id=11221467

Note: Please do not reply to this message. Poll votes are
not collected via email. To vote, you must go to the Yahoo! Groups
web site listed above.

Thanks!