That is one thing you'll find in Michigan.  Everyone is always willing to lend their equipment to anyone to enjoy the shooting sports.  This ensures "setting the hook" and recruiting new shooters.  If you come to Michigan and shoot with us, you can shoot all the hi-caps you want.  We might even let you shoot a 50BMG after the match.  Sorry, Arnie took that right away from you guys as well.

Matt Outman <mroutman@...> wrote:

We shooters in California and other gun unfriendly places would like to see something in rules about using the maximum capacity of the jurisdiction of the match – ten for California.  That way, visitors from Free states won’t dominate our matches.  And maybe a good neighbor rule that allows us to “borrow” hi caps when we visit.  We’ll have to give them back before we go home so we don’t become felons.

 

Matt

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Len Baxley [mailto:lenbaxley@...]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:27 PM
To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA

 

Great Roger.

It will follow factory mag specs and maybe even More in the mag to reload to...

There are a ton of folk VERY upset at the current rule book and the iron is hot to to it.

I will keep you up to date.

Len



On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:

When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry.  That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to this new org.
Roger

Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better
than others. 

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional
people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center. 
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing  their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.  
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff










Roger


Yahoo! Groups Links

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
 
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
 
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

---

Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!

OUCH,,,

Looks like we have some sense of humor.
Nothing like kicking a gun less man when he is down.

So, I am betting you will have a small turn out for the IDSA Sub-Gun
Nationals in Calf also?
Sorry, it was just to tempting....

We love you just the same, 10 rounder.....

IDSA STAFF




On Jan 10, 2005, at 11:01 PM, Richard Lichon wrote:

> That is one thing you'll find in Michigan.  Everyone is always willing
> to lend their equipment to anyone to enjoy the shooting sports.  This
> ensures "setting the hook" and recruiting new shooters.  If you come
> to Michigan and shoot with us, you can shoot all the hi-caps you
> want.  We might even let you shoot a 50BMG after the match.  Sorry,
> Arnie took that right away from you guys as well.
>
> Matt Outman <mroutman@...> wrote:
>
>  We shooters in California and other gun unfriendly places would like
> to see something in rules about using the maximum capacity of the
> jurisdiction of the match – ten for California.  That way, visitors
> from Free states won’t dominate our matches.  And maybe a good
> neighbor rule that allows us to “borrow” hi caps when we visit.  We’ll
> have to give them back before we go home so we don’t become felons.
>
>  
>
> Matt
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len Baxley [mailto:lenbaxley@...]
>  Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:27 PM
> To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA
>
>  
>
> Great Roger.
>
> It will follow factory mag specs and maybe even More in the mag to
> reload to...
>
> There are a ton of folk VERY upset at the current rule book and the
> iron is hot to to it.
>
> I will keep you up to date.
>
> Len
>
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:
>
> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has
> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not
> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory
> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry. 
> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to
> this new org.
> Roger
>
> Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
> officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
> separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
> matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every
> day life. IDSA
> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
>  very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
> Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
> NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it
> doesn't we have a
>  problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
> than others. 
>
> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
> match.
> You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
> inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
> people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
> tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless
> important to help
> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
> environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
> simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
> clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
> belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
> BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off.
> And it is a REAL
> factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
> If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
> penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun.
> We will be getting a
>  factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
> This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we
> have it
> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
> does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
> shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
> Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
> advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes,
> a very touchy
> subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
> our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill
> the bad guys thus
> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer
> Jerry, more US
> soldiers would be dieing.
> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and
> serves our purpose it
> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
> sager, and more user friendly.
>
> READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
> already said.
>
> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
> Len Baxley
> Founder TDSA
> www.tdsa.net
> 972-217-1182
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
>  Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
>
> ADVERTISEMENT
> <121504_y1204_a_300250a.gif>
> <l.gif>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

Roger,

That is a tough one I will agree.
I just got off the email with a match director that thinks to make a
sport you have to keep the 10 round thing.

I still want to use the "Test"

For equipment issue:
"Is the equipment
1. Secure
2. Safe
3. Concealed

And past that, how cares?

If you want to wear a gun a little lower, then you have to wear a
longer jacket...

And as for mag cap. Well would you want to carry a 10 rounder if you
can carry a 17?
Tell me huh?

Well that just does not make sense does it?

And go figure that is the other test?????

Len


YOur thoughts?





On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:

> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has
> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not
> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory
> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry. 
> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to
> this new org.
> Roger
>
> Len Baxley wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
> officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
> separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
> matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
> every day life. IDSA
> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
> Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
> NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if
> it doesn't we have a
> problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
> than others. 
>
> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
> match.
> You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
> inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
> people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
> tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
> nevertheless important to help
> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
> environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
> simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
> clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
> belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
> BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
> you
> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade
> off. And it is a REAL
> factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
> If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
> penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense
> gun. We will be getting a
> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
> This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what
> we have it
> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
> does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
> shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
> Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
> advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications.
> Yes, a very touchy
> subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
> our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
> kill the bad guys thus
> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
> Gamer Jerry, more US
> soldiers would be dieing.
> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works
> and serves our purpose it
> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
> sager, and more user friendly.
>
> READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
> already said.
>
> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roger
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

Matt,

We hear you buddy.
How about just moving???
Ok, that was a cheap shot.
I bet Calf is a nice place to live. Just don't get into a gun fight
that needs more than 11 rounds..
But hey, I guess everyone follows that 10 round rule, even the Calf bad
guys, huh?


Ok, Seriously though. The mag capacity issue is coming up from all over
the Nation.
And is looks like we will be kicking that around for a couple more days.

But as it stands now, we are leaning towards keeping with the, "That
makes sense" theory.
So, if you can have a high cap mag that comes stock for your gun, why
would you consider using a 10 rounder?
And hey, if you want to do that, its ok with the rules also.
And remember, this sport is supposed to help shooters figure out what
gear they really want to use on the street on a daily basis...

BUT, you have a VERY good point..
And those of us, that don't get to Calf might not have known about your
10 round issue.. SO, we need to use the "Club President" body to see
what the membership wants to do in that case.

And we bet the "right" decision will occur.
After all, IDSA is a representative association....

BUT,,,,, we bet you will be hard pressed to convince the "Club
President" Body to vote to have the IDSA Pistol Nationals in Calf.  :)


Hang in there buddy, and maybe your Governator will help you guys.

IDSA STAFF





On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:54 PM, Matt Outman wrote:

> We shooters in California and other gun unfriendly places would like
> to see something in rules about using the maximum capacity of the
> jurisdiction of the match – ten for California.  That way, visitors
> from Free states won’t dominate our matches.  And maybe a good
> neighbor rule that allows us to “borrow” hi caps when we visit.  We’ll
> have to give them back before we go home so we don’t become felons.
>
>  
>
> Matt
>
>  
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Len Baxley [mailto:lenbaxley@...]
>  Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:27 PM
> To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA
>
>  
>
> Great Roger.
>
>  It will follow factory mag specs and maybe even More in the mag to
> reload to...
>
>  There are a ton of folk VERY upset at the current rule book and the
> iron is hot to to it.
>
>  I will keep you up to date.
>
>  Len
>
>
>
>  On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:
>
> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has
> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not
> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory
> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry. 
> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to
> this new org.
>  Roger
>
> Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
> officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
> separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
> matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every
> day life. IDSA
> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
> Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
> NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it
> doesn't we have a
> problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
> than others. 
>
> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
> match.
> You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
> inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
> people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
> tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless
> important to help
> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
> environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
> simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
> clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
> belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
> BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off.
> And it is a REAL
> factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
> If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
> penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun.
> We will be getting a
> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
> This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we
> have it
> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
> does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
> shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
> Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
> advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes,
> a very touchy
> subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
> our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill
> the bad guys thus
> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer
> Jerry, more US
> soldiers would be dieing.
> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and
> serves our purpose it
> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
> sager, and more user friendly.
>
> READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
> already said.
>
> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Roger
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> • To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
> • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
> • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
>
>
>
> Len Baxley
>  Founder TDSA
>  www.tdsa.net
>  972-217-1182
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Lichon

To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:01 PM

Subject: RE: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA

That is one thing you'll find in Michigan.  Everyone is always willing to lend their equipment to anyone to enjoy the shooting sports.  This ensures "setting the hook" and recruiting new shooters.  If you come to Michigan and shoot with us, you can shoot all the hi-caps you want.  We might even let you shoot a 50BMG after the match.  Sorry, Arnie took that right away from you guys as well.

Matt Outman <mroutman@...> wrote:

We shooters in California and other gun unfriendly places would like to see something in rules about using the maximum capacity of the jurisdiction of the match – ten for California.  That way, visitors from Free states won’t dominate our matches.  And maybe a good neighbor rule that allows us to “borrow” hi caps when we visit.  We’ll have to give them back before we go home so we don’t become felons.

 

Matt

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Len Baxley [mailto:lenbaxley@...]
Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 6:27 PM
To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA

 

Great Roger.

It will follow factory mag specs and maybe even More in the mag to reload to...

There are a ton of folk VERY upset at the current rule book and the iron is hot to to it.

I will keep you up to date.

Len



On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:

When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry.  That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to this new org.
Roger

Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better
than others. 

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional
people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center. 
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing  their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.  
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff










Roger


Yahoo! Groups Links

• To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
 
• To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
 
• Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.

Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

---

Do you Yahoo!?
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! – Try it today!

That could be one solution.
Do you think that it would be ok to have stages that would make some
guns reload but not others?
The thought is that some gun fights might be less and some more.

IDSA STAFF


On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:29 PM, Richard Lichon wrote:

>
>
> Potential solution.
>
> Make a minimum of 19 rounds required then everyone has at least one
> reload no matter the capacity of their magazines (speaking for DA/SA
> and DA autoloaders that is).
>
> Dick
>
> --- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, Len Baxley <lenbaxley@c...>
> wrote:
>> Roger,
>>
>> That is a tough one I will agree.
>> I just got off the email with a match director that thinks to make
> a
>> sport you have to keep the 10 round thing.
>>
>> I still want to use the "Test"
>>
>> For equipment issue:
>> "Is the equipment
>> 1. Secure
>> 2. Safe
>> 3. Concealed
>>
>> And past that, how cares?
>>
>> If you want to wear a gun a little lower, then you have to wear a
>> longer jacket...
>>
>> And as for mag cap. Well would you want to carry a 10 rounder if
> you
>> can carry a 17?
>> Tell me huh?
>>
>> Well that just does not make sense does it?
>>
>> And go figure that is the other test?????
>>
>> Len
>>
>>
>> YOur thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:
>>
>>> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That
> has
>>> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does
> not
>>> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP
> catagory
>>> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you
> carry. 
>>> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look
> forward to
>>> this new org.
>>> Roger
>>>
>>> Len Baxley <lenbaxley@c...> wrote:
>>>
>>> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
>>> governing body that
>>>  officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense
> shooting
>>> situations.
>>>
>>> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their
> self
>>> defense shooting skills
>>>  in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high
> level
>>> of safety for its
>>> participants.
>>>
>>> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly
> used by
>>>  individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
>>> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
>>>  and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms
> will
>>> have their own
>>>  separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to
> hold
>>> voluntary "side
>>>  matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side
> match"
>>> only.
>>>
>>> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of
> Manufactures
>>> to develope New
>>>  and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
>>> every day life. IDSA
>>>  varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA
> is
>>> commited to following a
>>> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why
> IDSA
>>> was founded.
>>>
>>>  Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
>>> experienced folks. There are
>>>  NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain
> our
>>> reasoning for each one.
>>>  We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because
> if
>>> it doesn't we have a
>>> problem.
>>>
>>> Equipment Category:
>>> Holsters
>>> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must
> pass
>>> these tests.
>>> 1. Must be secure.
>>> 2. Must be safe.
>>> 3. Must be concealed.
>>>
>>> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be
> usable.
>>> Agreed, some are better
>>>  than others. 
>>>
>>>  And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these
> standards.
>>> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be
> seen
>>> when you raise your
>>>  arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
>>> equipment or just Zip up
>>>  your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all
> stages
>>> that way in the
>>>  match.
>>>  You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs
> down to
>>> "conceal it".
>>>  2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard
> must be
>>> covered. And a visual
>>>  inspection can determine that.
>>> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in
> mind
>>> most professional
>>>  people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster.
> Since
>>> we all can set up from
>>>  a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean
> forward
>>> until you "catch
>>>  yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being
> pushed
>>> down) and then go
>>>  down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we
> have
>>> "fairly" and safely
>>>  tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are
> very
>>> mindful here as not to
>>>  stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
>>> nevertheless important to help
>>>  shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a
> safe
>>> shooting
>>>  environment.
>>>
>>> Holster Location:
>>> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with
> the "3
>>> Holster rules"
>>>  * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
>>> 1. Cross draw holsters
>>> 2. Fanny packs
>>>  ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not
> great
>>> carry type
>>>  holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the
> safety
>>> factor
>>>  simply prohibits them.
>>>
>>> Scoring System:
>>> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this
> system.
>>> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>>>
>>> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined
> total
>>> of 8 points. Anything
>>>  less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have
> 3
>>> scoring rings (And until all the
>>>  clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three
> ring
>>> target can be
>>>  substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
>>> The center ring is worth 5 points
>>> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
>>> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>>>
>>> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>>>
>>> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained
> or
>>> at least heard that "shot
>>>  placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a
> threat.
>>> So, in keeping with this
>>>  belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
>>> defense, "Do we want less
>>>  BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another
> way, "had
>>> you
>>>  rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a
> trade
>>> off. And it is a REAL
>>>  factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
>>>  If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are
> saying "
>>> I don't want to be
>>>  penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if
> you hit
>>> the center. 
>>>  Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone
> makes
>>> when choosing  their
>>>  self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and
> kick
>>> just as
>>>  hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self
> defense
>>> gun. We will be getting a
>>> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as
> our "power
>>> factor"
>>>  And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm
> round.
>>>
>>>  These "power factors" will be established asap.
>>>
>>> Gun Classifications.  
>>>  This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep
> it
>>> simple AND have fewer
>>>  than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is
> what
>>> we have it
>>>  down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
>>> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care
> what
>>> gun you shoot, he
>>>  does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want
> the
>>> most people to be able
>>>  to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are
> not "out
>>> gunned" And lastly if the
>>>  shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be
> the
>>> time to choose another
>>>  gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>>>
>>> We are holding our breath.
>>>
>>> 3 categories only:
>>>
>>> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
>>>  2. Non-Single Action Autos
>>> 3. Revolvers
>>>
>>> Guys, please give this some thought.
>>>  Our thoughts were these:
>>> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do
> give a
>>> small but distinct
>>>  advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
>>> maintenance issues.
>>> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the
> gun
>>> does.
>>> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun,
> than
>>> that is YOUR
>>>  choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun
> for
>>> what you are tying to
>>>  do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you
> save up
>>> and get it?
>>>
>>>  And now the next level of breath holding. We go to
> modifications.
>>> Yes, a very touchy
>>>  subject for many....
>>>
>>> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and
> true
>>> fact that gave us
>>>  some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this
> topic.
>>>  It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol
> several
>>> years ago. And when Jerry
>>>  won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were
> called
>>> gamers also. But today
>>>  our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq
> to
>>> kill the bad guys thus
>>>  saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
>>> Gamer Jerry, more US
>>>  soldiers would be dieing.
>>>  So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
>>> organizations. We feel that
>>>  equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing,
> no
>>> matter if it is plastic,
>>>  leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it
> works
>>> and serves our purpose it
>>>  is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>>>
>>> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section.
> But as
>>> you can see we want to
>>>  put as few restrictions possible in this section.
>>>  We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to
> compete in
>>> IDSA but we want
>>>  manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
>>> equipment better, faster,
>>>  sager, and more user friendly.
>>>
>>>  READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance
> to
>>> respond to what we have
>>>  already said.
>>>
>>>  Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>>>
>>> IDSA Staff
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  Roger
>>>
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>>>  
>>>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>>>  
>>>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
> Terms of
>>> Service.
>>>
>>>
>> Len Baxley
>> Founder TDSA
>> www.tdsa.net
>> 972-217-1182
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

Potential solution.

Make a minimum of 19 rounds required then everyone has at least one
reload no matter the capacity of their magazines (speaking for DA/SA
and DA autoloaders that is).

Dick

--- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, Len Baxley <lenbaxley@c...>
wrote:
> Roger,
>
> That is a tough one I will agree.
> I just got off the email with a match director that thinks to make
a
> sport you have to keep the 10 round thing.
>
> I still want to use the "Test"
>
> For equipment issue:
> "Is the equipment
> 1. Secure
> 2. Safe
> 3. Concealed
>
> And past that, how cares?
>
> If you want to wear a gun a little lower, then you have to wear a
> longer jacket...
>
> And as for mag cap. Well would you want to carry a 10 rounder if
you
> can carry a 17?
> Tell me huh?
>
> Well that just does not make sense does it?
>
> And go figure that is the other test?????
>
> Len
>
>
> YOur thoughts?
>
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:
>
> > When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That
has
> > been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does
not
> > make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP
catagory
> > and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you
carry. 
> > That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look
forward to
> > this new org.
> > Roger
> >
> > Len Baxley <lenbaxley@c...> wrote:
> >
> > The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> > governing body that
> >  officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense
shooting
> > situations.
> >
> > IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their
self
> > defense shooting skills
> >  in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high
level
> > of safety for its
> > participants.
> >
> > IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly
used by
> >  individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> > Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> >  and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms
will
> > have their own
> >  separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to
hold
> > voluntary "side
> >  matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side
match"
> > only.
> >
> > A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of
Manufactures
> > to develope New
> >  and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
> > every day life. IDSA
> >  varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA
is
> > commited to following a
> > very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why
IDSA
> > was founded.
> >
> >  Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> > experienced folks. There are
> >  NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain
our
> > reasoning for each one.
> >  We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because
if
> > it doesn't we have a
> > problem.
> >
> > Equipment Category:
> > Holsters
> > All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must
pass
> > these tests.
> > 1. Must be secure.
> > 2. Must be safe.
> > 3. Must be concealed.
> >
> > Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be
usable.
> > Agreed, some are better
> >  than others. 
> >
> >  And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these
standards.
> > 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be
seen
> > when you raise your
> >  arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> > equipment or just Zip up
> >  your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all
stages
> > that way in the
> >  match.
> >  You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs
down to
> > "conceal it".
> >  2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard
must be
> > covered. And a visual
> >  inspection can determine that.
> > 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in
mind
> > most professional
> >  people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster.
Since
> > we all can set up from
> >  a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean
forward
> > until you "catch
> >  yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being
pushed
> > down) and then go
> >  down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we
have
> > "fairly" and safely
> >  tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are
very
> > mindful here as not to
> >  stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
> > nevertheless important to help
> >  shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a
safe
> > shooting
> >  environment.
> >
> > Holster Location:
> > Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with
the "3
> > Holster rules"
> >  * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> > 1. Cross draw holsters
> > 2. Fanny packs
> >  ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not
great
> > carry type
> >  holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the
safety
> > factor
> >  simply prohibits them.
> >
> > Scoring System:
> > Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this
system.
> > Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
> >
> > To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined
total
> > of 8 points. Anything
> >  less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have
3
> > scoring rings (And until all the
> >  clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three
ring
> > target can be
> >  substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> > The center ring is worth 5 points
> > The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> > The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
> >
> > And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
> >
> > To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained
or
> > at least heard that "shot
> >  placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a
threat.
> > So, in keeping with this
> >  belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> > defense, "Do we want less
> >  BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another
way, "had
> > you
> >  rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a
trade
> > off. And it is a REAL
> >  factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
> >  If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are
saying "
> > I don't want to be
> >  penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if
you hit
> > the center. 
> >  Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone
makes
> > when choosing  their
> >  self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and
kick
> > just as
> >  hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self
defense
> > gun. We will be getting a
> > factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as
our "power
> > factor"
> >  And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm
round.
> >
> >  These "power factors" will be established asap.
> >
> > Gun Classifications.  
> >  This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep
it
> > simple AND have fewer
> >  than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is
what
> > we have it
> >  down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> > * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care
what
> > gun you shoot, he
> >  does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want
the
> > most people to be able
> >  to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are
not "out
> > gunned" And lastly if the
> >  shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be
the
> > time to choose another
> >  gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
> >
> > We are holding our breath.
> >
> > 3 categories only:
> >
> > 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> >  2. Non-Single Action Autos
> > 3. Revolvers
> >
> > Guys, please give this some thought.
> >  Our thoughts were these:
> > 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do
give a
> > small but distinct
> >  advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> > maintenance issues.
> > 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the
gun
> > does.
> > 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun,
than
> > that is YOUR
> >  choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun
for
> > what you are tying to
> >  do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you
save up
> > and get it?
> >
> >  And now the next level of breath holding. We go to
modifications.
> > Yes, a very touchy
> >  subject for many....
> >
> > And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and
true
> > fact that gave us
> >  some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this
topic.
> >  It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol
several
> > years ago. And when Jerry
> >  won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were
called
> > gamers also. But today
> >  our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq
to
> > kill the bad guys thus
> >  saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
> > Gamer Jerry, more US
> >  soldiers would be dieing.
> >  So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> > organizations. We feel that
> >  equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing,
no
> > matter if it is plastic,
> >  leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it
works
> > and serves our purpose it
> >  is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
> >
> > IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section.
But as
> > you can see we want to
> >  put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> >  We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to
compete in
> > IDSA but we want
> >  manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> > equipment better, faster,
> >  sager, and more user friendly.
> >
> >  READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance
to
> > respond to what we have
> >  already said.
> >
> >  Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
> >
> > IDSA Staff
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >  Roger
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
> >  
> >  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >  
> >  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
Terms of
> > Service.
> >
> >
> Len Baxley
> Founder TDSA
> www.tdsa.net
> 972-217-1182

I'm one of the MD at the Linden Sportsmen Club in Linden, MI.  We
hold regular ID*A matches at our club.  We are considered the top
club in Michigan and for the most part the tri-state area.  I can
speak for a few of us ROs that we were ready to start the same thing
you've got going here.  You can count on my support in the future and
I have access to over 300 shooters that frequent my club.  Bring on
the fun the way trigger time was intended.  All hail IDSA, no more
banned equipment!!!  Dick

Any thoughts on duty gear and for the 3-gun types their tactical
holsters?


--- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, Len Baxley <lenbaxley@c...>
wrote:
> Roger,
>
> That is a tough one I will agree.
> I just got off the email with a match director that thinks to make
a
> sport you have to keep the 10 round thing.
>
> I still want to use the "Test"
>
> For equipment issue:
> "Is the equipment
> 1. Secure
> 2. Safe
> 3. Concealed
>
> And past that, how cares?
>
> If you want to wear a gun a little lower, then you have to wear a
> longer jacket...
>
> And as for mag cap. Well would you want to carry a 10 rounder if
you
> can carry a 17?
> Tell me huh?
>
> Well that just does not make sense does it?
>
> And go figure that is the other test?????
>
> Len
>
>
> YOur thoughts?
>
>
>

Roger,

That is a tough one I will agree.
I just got off the email with a match director that thinks to make a
sport you have to keep the 10 round thing.

I still want to use the "Test"

For equipment issue:
"Is the equipment
1. Secure
2. Safe
3. Concealed

And past that, how cares?

If you want to wear a gun a little lower, then you have to wear a
longer jacket...

And as for mag cap. Well would you want to carry a 10 rounder if you
can carry a 17?
Tell me huh?

Well that just does not make sense does it?

And go figure that is the other test?????

Len


YOur thoughts?





On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:

> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has
> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not
> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory
> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry. 
> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to
> this new org.
> Roger
>
> Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
>  officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
>  in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
>  individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
>  and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
>  separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
>  matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
>  and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
> every day life. IDSA
>  varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
>  Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
>  NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
>  We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if
> it doesn't we have a
> problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
>  than others. 
>
>  And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
>  arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
>  your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
>  match.
>  You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
>  2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
>  inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
>  people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
>  a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
>  yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
>  down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
>  tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
>  stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
> nevertheless important to help
>  shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
>  environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
>  * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
>  ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
>  holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
>  simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
>  less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
>  clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
>  substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
>  placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
>  belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
>  BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
> you
>  rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade
> off. And it is a REAL
>  factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
>  If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
>  penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
>  Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
>  self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
>  hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense
> gun. We will be getting a
> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
>  And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
>  These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
>  This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
>  than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what
> we have it
>  down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
>  does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
>  to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
>  shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
>  gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
>  2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
>  Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
>  advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
>  choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
>  do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
>  And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications.
> Yes, a very touchy
>  subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
>  some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
>  It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
>  won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
>  our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
> kill the bad guys thus
>  saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
> Gamer Jerry, more US
>  soldiers would be dieing.
>  So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
>  equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
>  leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works
> and serves our purpose it
>  is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
>  put as few restrictions possible in this section.
>  We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
>  manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
>  sager, and more user friendly.
>
>  READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
>  already said.
>
>  Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Roger
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

Guys,
For now you can all tell your friends to go to :

http://www.tdsa.net/idsa/idsa.htm

And go to the bottom and enter their email address and that will get them to
this board to discuss and fuss over IDSA...

Thanks guys.

We sure hope this works..

IDSA STAFF

Guys,

We web designer is working on the web site and a artist is working on the
logo.

So now is the time for anyone to volunteer any good ideas for the logo..

Come on any artistic guys out there?


IDSA STAFF

Great Roger.

It will follow factory mag specs and maybe even More in the mag to
reload to...

There are a ton of folk VERY upset at the current rule book and the
iron is hot to to it.

I will keep you up to date.

Len



On Jan 10, 2005, at 8:17 PM, Roger Fulton wrote:

> When will you address the subject of magazine capacity Len?  That has
> been a sore spot with me since I joined IDPA.  Since Wilson does not
> make hi-cap mags or guns you are limited to 8 rds in the CDP catagory
> and the whole idea behind it, IDPA, was to shoot with what you carry. 
> That is all I have to gripe about at the moment and I look forward to
> this new org.
> Roger
>
> Len Baxley <lenbaxley@...> wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
>  officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
>  in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
>  individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
>  and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
>  separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
>  matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
>  and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
> every day life. IDSA
>  varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
>  Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
>  NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
>  We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if
> it doesn't we have a
> problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
>  than others. 
>
>  And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
>  arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
>  your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
>  match.
>  You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
>  2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
>  inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
>  people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
>  a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
>  yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
>  down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
>  tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
>  stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
> nevertheless important to help
>  shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
>  environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
>  * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
>  ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
>  holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
>  simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
>  less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
>  clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
>  substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
>  placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
>  belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
>  BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
> you
>  rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade
> off. And it is a REAL
>  factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
>  If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
>  penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
>  Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
>  self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
>  hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense
> gun. We will be getting a
> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
>  And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
>  These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
>  This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
>  than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what
> we have it
>  down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
>  does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
>  to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
>  shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
>  gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
>  2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
>  Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
>  advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
>  choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
>  do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
>  And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications.
> Yes, a very touchy
>  subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
>  some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
>  It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
>  won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
>  our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
> kill the bad guys thus
>  saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
> Gamer Jerry, more US
>  soldiers would be dieing.
>  So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
>  equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
>  leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works
> and serves our purpose it
>  is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
>  put as few restrictions possible in this section.
>  We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
>  manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
>  sager, and more user friendly.
>
>  READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
>  already said.
>
>  Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Roger
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better
than others. 

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional
people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center. 
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing  their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.  
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff

Guys,

Today we have signed on Legal Counsel. And the Counsel is also a Shooter.
Some of you might know him, Greg Whitmore from Dallas Texas. And we are
happy to have him.

We are getting phone calls from around the country and people are asking
where to send the money and how much to send.

So it looks like the rules or concepts that we have already outlined are what
folks are wanting. So we need to get the administration side of IDSA up and
running. Which means data bases, certificates, logo's, membership cards etc
etc....

Our goal is to have those clubs that have already called, supplied with a draft
of the rule book for Pistol Competition by this Friday.  So they can use it to
shoot their matches on Saturday.

There has been talk of making all those who sign up during the first 3 to 6
months charter members of IDSA.  So they would get the big browny button,
but kidding aside, Charter Membership should be something to be proud of in
the years to come.

We sent out invitations to join this board, but some got sent out without
putting
the correct address to get here. Yea, we are all human huh? We will correct
that and resend them...

IDSA STAFF

Kenneth,

Thank you very much.
We see alot of work to be done in a short amount of time. But the good part is
that we have been thinking about this for quite some time. And from the looks
of things so have alot of others.

We will be polishing the rules for a bit I am sure. But at each step our guiding
focus will be on the promotion of Self Defense. And not our own "personal
opinions of such" so we think we will do a good job. And in the end the
shooters will benifit.

We think the best thing right now is to get the word out. To everyone that
shoots in a sport that uses any of the weapons we will use. And hopefully that
will include almost everyone that owns a gun.

Thanks again,
And please offer any advice or feelings you have about what you think should
happen...

IDSA STAFF

--- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, "Kenneth_D_Moore" <
kenneth_d_moore@y...> wrote:
>
> Len,
>
> First, let me say what a breath of fresh air.  I applaud the openess
> seen in the first msg.
>
> I look foward to hearing more, and will certainly discuss this
> tonight with the crowd that shoots Monday nights here locally.
>
> Other than that, is there anything else you would like at this
> time?
>
> -Kenneth

Len,

First, let me say what a breath of fresh air.  I applaud the openess
seen in the first msg.

I look foward to hearing more, and will certainly discuss this
tonight with the crowd that shoots Monday nights here locally.

Other than that, is there anything else you would like at this
time?

-Kenneth

Matt,

That is great.
If you can please forward our contact group info so others can log on.

We are putting rules on paper as I type.

Thanks again, and happy to have you on board.

IDSA Staff




On Jan 10, 2005, at 11:15 AM, mattoutman wrote:

>
>
> What could be more American than healthy competition in the free
> market.  I'll spread the word out here in Northern California.
>
> Matt
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

What could be more American than healthy competition in the free
market.  I'll spread the word out here in Northern California.

Matt

Looking at things that "Upset" shooters in current formats.

Things need to be FAIR.
Which mean rules need to be applied evenly to all shooters with "less"
penalties being left open for "personal" opinions of R/Os to call.
R/O's have tough jobs keeping a stage/match running quickly and smoothly.
Most of us have been the vicitim of a 'over zelous" R/O or even one that made
a mistake in the split second it took to see it.
Specifically we can use the issue of "using cover"
If we think about it. The shooter is focusing on the targets, The R/O should be
looking at safety formost. Hoping the R/O can be fair or even handed is
wishful thinking at best. And we don' t won't to talk about the worst, do we. :)

So once again we need to look to the best and easiest way to control the
shooter. And that is with STAGE DESIGN...
If you don't want the shooter moving there, put a barricade there. Or if you
don't have a barricade and don't have time to make one for that match, then
you have to do to a "stick" Oh my god, we said, "stick"
Well guys if there is any other way that someone can come up with to make it
more "fair" when the stage designer can't come up with barricade, let us know.
And we feel that this is a self correcting problem.  If stage designers don't
like
"sticks" or "foot faults" then they well get busy and start building barricades
to
restrict movement....
But in the end the most important issue is "fairness"  And a stick is not bias,
it
is just a stick..

So less "opinion" calls are better...
And better STAGE DESIGN is GREAT!!!

Thanks
IDSA STAFF

Ok guys,
We just got off the phone wil JB from Comp-Tac. We will use his name
because he was very nice and polite when he brought up a idea about the
Club Presidents.
He said that he thinks that each club president should have a voice in how
ISDA is run. And we said, and are you ready for this, "That Makes Sense"
We think that if a group of shooters elect a Club President to represent them
then they should be represented. After all, the club president sees each
shooter at every match, what better way is there to keep "everyone" in touch.

So a discussion board will be formed for club presidents to use, and maybe
all shooters can view just not post, to discuss the issues that arise from club
matches.
And when issues need to be voted on that same board can be used to vote on
those issues.

We feel this is a GREAT idea, that will keep the majority of the control where
it
should be, at the club level, or rather at the shooter level.

The hardest thing we have had to do is put our "personal" feelings aside on
what "we" think is tactical or best. Because when we start down that slipery
slope become what we dislike.

So how do we, as the new IDSA, keep shooters from doing things that might
seem anti-self defense?
Well, we make stages that simulate our daily life. And if that shooter does well
in that stage that simulates daily life. WELL, I guess we might have been
wrong about his style? Or if he does bad, then HE might have been wrong in
his thinking about how to shoot, and therefore he might change his opinion.

Guys, NO MATTER what happens. Someone will improve, either the shooter,
or the stage designer...

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY::::
Don't make RULES..... Make GOOD STAGES !!!

Thanks guys,
IDSA STAFF

JB,

I will call you this morning.
I talked to Greg yesterday and he was positive about it.
We are getting very good responses about this.
I feel we will make it.

Thanks,

Len




On Jan 10, 2005, at 7:22 AM, comp-tac.com wrote:

> Hello Len,
>   I love it. if you get a chance call me and I will get the readers
> digest version and pass it along to those that have contacted me and
> are looking for a new sport. If there is anything we at Comp-Tac can
> do to help let me know. Thank you,  J.B. Rice.
> ----- Original Message -----
>  From: Len Baxley
> To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:10 AM
> Subject: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA
>
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
>  officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level
> of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will
> have their own
>  separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold
> voluntary "side
>  matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures
> to develope New
> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every
> day life. IDSA
> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA
> was founded.
>
>  Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
>  NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it
> doesn't we have a
>  problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass
> these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
>  than others. 
>
> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
> match.
>  You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
> inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind
> most professional
>  people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward
> until you "catch
> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have
> "fairly" and safely
>  tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless
> important to help
> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
> environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
> simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
>  clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring
> target can be
> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
>  belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
>  BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
> you
> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off.
> And it is a REAL
>  factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
>  If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying "
> I don't want to be
>  penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit
> the center. 
> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick
> just as
> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun.
> We will be getting a
>  factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.
>
> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.  
>  This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we
> have it
> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what
> gun you shoot, he
>  does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
>  shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
> Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
>  advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun
> does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than
> that is YOUR
> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up
> and get it?
>
> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes,
> a very touchy
> subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true
> fact that gave us
> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
>  our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
> kill the bad guys thus
> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer
> Jerry, more US
> soldiers would be dieing.
> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and
> serves our purpose it
> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as
> you can see we want to
> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
> sager, and more user friendly.
>
>  READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
> already said.
>
> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>  •  To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/defensiveshooting/
>  
>  • 	 To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> defensiveshooting-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>  
>  • 	 Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
> Service.
>
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

Klaus,

Thank you.
We have been thinking about these changes for a long time and think
that trying to change something that seems so head strong would be
almost impossible.
So starting a new one would be easier if not just better.

Please let us know your thoughts on the plans.

Thanks again.
IDSA Staff



On Jan 10, 2005, at 6:25 AM, Klaus Jones wrote:

>
>
> Well...It does look like you put some thought into it. I'll have to
> re-read this a few times and see how things settle. Looks good so far.
> As a MD I am sorely disapointed in the rulebook that came out. It
> truely does not look like they took anyone into consideration other
> than the person wanting the change made....They had 2+ years to get it
> right, and it looks like they did all the work in a few days....
>
> Another option just might be a good thing!!!
>
> Thanks!
>
>
> --- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, "Len Baxley"
> <lenbaxley@c...> wrote:
>>
>> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
> governing body that
>> officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
> situations.
>>
>> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
> defense shooting skills
>> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high
> level of safety for its
>> participants.
>>
>> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used
> by
>> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
> Rifles, Sub-machine guns
>> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms
> will have their own
>> separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to
> hold voluntary "side
>> matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
> only.
>>
>> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of
> Manufactures to develope New
>> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
> every day life. IDSA
>> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
> commited to following a
>> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why
> IDSA was founded.
>>
>> Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
> experienced folks. There are
>> NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
> reasoning for each one.
>> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if
> it doesn't we have a
>> problem.
>>
>> Equipment Category:
>> Holsters
>> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must
> pass these tests.
>> 1. Must be secure.
>> 2. Must be safe.
>> 3. Must be concealed.
>>
>> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
> Agreed, some are better
>> than others.
>>
>> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these
> standards.
>> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
> when you raise your
>> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
> equipment or just Zip up
>> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
> that way in the
>> match.
>> You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
> "conceal it".
>> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
> covered. And a visual
>> inspection can determine that.
>> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in
> mind most professional
>> people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
> we all can set up from
>> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean
> forward until you "catch
>> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
> down) and then go
>> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we
> have "fairly" and safely
>> tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
> mindful here as not to
>> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
> nevertheless important to help
>> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
> shooting
>> environment.
>>
>> Holster Location:
>> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
> Holster rules"
>> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
>> 1. Cross draw holsters
>> 2. Fanny packs
>> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
> carry type
>> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
> factor
>> simply prohibits them.
>>
>> Scoring System:
>> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this
> system.
>> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>>
>> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
> of 8 points. Anything
>> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
> scoring rings (And until all the
>> clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three
> ring target can be
>> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
>> The center ring is worth 5 points
>> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
>> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>>
>> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>>
>> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
> at least heard that "shot
>> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
> So, in keeping with this
>> belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
> defense, "Do we want less
>> BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
> you
>> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade
> off. And it is a REAL
>> factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
>> If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying
> " I don't want to be
>> penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you
> hit the center.
>> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
> when choosing  their
>> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and
> kick just as
>> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense
> gun. We will be getting a
>> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
> factor"
>> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm
> round.
>>
>> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>>
>> Gun Classifications.
>> This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
> simple AND have fewer
>> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what
> we have it
>> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
>> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care
> what gun you shoot, he
>> does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
> most people to be able
>> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
> gunned" And lastly if the
>> shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
> time to choose another
>> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>>
>> We are holding our breath.
>>
>> 3 categories only:
>>
>> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
>> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
>> 3. Revolvers
>>
>> Guys, please give this some thought.
>> Our thoughts were these:
>> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
> small but distinct
>> advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
> maintenance issues.
>> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the
> gun does.
>> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun,
> than that is YOUR
>> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
> what you are tying to
>> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save
> up and get it?
>>
>> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications.
> Yes, a very touchy
>> subject for many....
>>
>> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and
> true fact that gave us
>> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
>> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
> years ago. And when Jerry
>> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
> gamers also. But today
>> our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
> kill the bad guys thus
>> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
> Gamer Jerry, more US
>> soldiers would be dieing.
>> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
> organizations. We feel that
>> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
> matter if it is plastic,
>> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works
> and serves our purpose it
>> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>>
>> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But
> as you can see we want to
>> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
>> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
> IDSA but we want
>> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
> equipment better, faster,
>> sager, and more user friendly.
>>
>> READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
> respond to what we have
>> already said.
>>
>> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>>
>> IDSA Staff
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Len Baxley
Founder TDSA
www.tdsa.net
972-217-1182

----- Original Message -----

From: Len Baxley

To: defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:10 AM

Subject: [defensiveshooting] Welcome to IDSA

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles, Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary "side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life. IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some are better
than others. 

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered. And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most professional
people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you "catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly" and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8 points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings (And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the center. 
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when choosing  their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.  
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also. But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry, more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better, faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff

Well...It does look like you put some thought into it. I'll have to
re-read this a few times and see how things settle. Looks good so far.
As a MD I am sorely disapointed in the rulebook that came out. It
truely does not look like they took anyone into consideration other
than the person wanting the change made....They had 2+ years to get it
right, and it looks like they did all the work in a few days....

Another option just might be a good thing!!!

Thanks!


--- In defensiveshooting@yahoogroups.com, "Len Baxley"
<lenbaxley@c...> wrote:
>
> The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the
governing body that
> officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting
situations.
>
> IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self
defense shooting skills
> in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high
level of safety for its
> participants.
>
> IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used
by
> individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban
Rifles, Sub-machine guns
> and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms
will have their own
> separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to
hold voluntary "side
> matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match"
only.
>
> A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of
Manufactures to develope New
> and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in
every day life. IDSA
> varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is
commited to following a
> very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why
IDSA was founded.
>
> Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by
experienced folks. There are
> NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our
reasoning for each one.
> We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if
it doesn't we have a
> problem.
>
> Equipment Category:
> Holsters
> All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must
pass these tests.
> 1. Must be secure.
> 2. Must be safe.
> 3. Must be concealed.
>
> Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable.
Agreed, some are better
> than others.
>
> And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these
standards.
> 3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen
when you raise your
> arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your
equipment or just Zip up
> your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages
that way in the
> match.
> You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to
"conceal it".
> 2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be
covered. And a visual
> inspection can determine that.
> 1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in
mind most professional
> people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since
we all can set up from
> a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean
forward until you "catch
> yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed
down) and then go
> down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we
have "fairly" and safely
> tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very
mindful here as not to
> stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is
nevertheless important to help
> shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe
shooting
> environment.
>
> Holster Location:
> Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3
Holster rules"
> * Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
> 1. Cross draw holsters
> 2. Fanny packs
> ** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great
carry type
> holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety
factor
> simply prohibits them.
>
> Scoring System:
> Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this
system.
> Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.
>
> To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total
of 8 points. Anything
> less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3
scoring rings (And until all the
> clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three
ring target can be
> substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
> The center ring is worth 5 points
> The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
> The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.
>
> And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.
>
> To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or
at least heard that "shot
> placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat.
So, in keeping with this
> belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self
defense, "Do we want less
> BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had
you
> rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade
off. And it is a REAL
> factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
> If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying
" I don't want to be
> penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you
hit the center.
> Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes
when choosing  their
> self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and
kick just as
> hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense
gun. We will be getting a
> factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power
factor"
> And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm
round.
>
> These "power factors" will be established asap.
>
> Gun Classifications.
> This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it
simple AND have fewer
> than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what
we have it
> down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
> * One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care
what gun you shoot, he
> does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the
most people to be able
> to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out
gunned" And lastly if the
> shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the
time to choose another
> gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?
>
> We are holding our breath.
>
> 3 categories only:
>
> 1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
> 2. Non-Single Action Autos
> 3. Revolvers
>
> Guys, please give this some thought.
> Our thoughts were these:
> 1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a
small but distinct
> advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra"
maintenance issues.
> 2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the
gun does.
> 3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun,
than that is YOUR
> choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for
what you are tying to
> do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save
up and get it?
>
> And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications.
Yes, a very touchy
> subject for many....
>
> And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and
true fact that gave us
> some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
> It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several
years ago. And when Jerry
> won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called
gamers also. But today
> our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to
kill the bad guys thus
> saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for
Gamer Jerry, more US
> soldiers would be dieing.
> So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting
organizations. We feel that
> equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no
matter if it is plastic,
> leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works
and serves our purpose it
> is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.
>
> IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But
as you can see we want to
> put as few restrictions possible in this section.
> We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in
IDSA but we want
> manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and
equipment better, faster,
> sager, and more user friendly.
>
> READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to
respond to what we have
> already said.
>
> Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.
>
> IDSA Staff

I want to say THANK YOU to each of you that have accepted the
membership to the list.

Many ideas are going around now about a new sport. A sport that will
incorporate some of the Basic principles that IDPA was built around.
The best thing about this sport, is it mostly likely will not be run
by ONE person who has an interest in pushing his goods on the shooter.

Let's start hearing some IDEAS on what YOU feel can make
International Defensive Shooting Association better than the rest.

Thank you in advance,

Leonard

The International Defensive Shooting Association (IDSA) is the governing body
that
officiates the shooting sport that simulates self defense shooting situations.

IDSA provides a venue for shooters, worldwide, to further their self defense
shooting skills
in a structured and enjoyable fashion, while maintaining a high level of safety
for its
participants.

IDSA shooting matches will include firearms that are commonly used by
individuals for self defense. There are Pistols, Shotguns, Urban Rifles,
Sub-machine guns
and pocket pistol type handguns. Each of these types of firearms will have their
own
separate Match and each of those matches will also be allowed to hold voluntary
"side
matches" using the IDSA rules. *Pocket Pistol will be a "side match" only.

A very important aspect of IDSA will be encouragement of Manufactures to
develope New
and Improved equipment to increase the safety of our shooters in every day life.
IDSA
varies in this way to several other shooting organizations. IDSA is commited to
following a
very short list of guidlines we feel are the very essence of why IDSA was
founded.

Here is a partial list of rules that have been hammered out by experienced
folks. There are
NOT set in stone. Please offer your thoughts. We will explain our reasoning for
each one.
We hope you can say to each one, "Well that makes sense" Because if it doesn't
we have a
problem.

Equipment Category:
Holsters
All holsters must be secured at the belt or waist area, and must pass these
tests.
1. Must be secure.
2. Must be safe.
3. Must be concealed.

Simple huh?  Isn't this all a holster needs to do be to be usable. Agreed, some
are better
than others.

And here is the way we will insure the holsters meet these standards.
3. Concealed - The gun and holster ( All equipment) must not be seen when you
raise your
arms in a "airplane" fashion. If it is, then you can adjust your equipment or
just Zip up
your vest. Simple enough huh? And yes you must then start all stages that way in
the
match.
You can have a slow slung holster as long as your vest hangs down to "conceal
it".
2. Must be safe - This one is the easiest, the trigger guard must be covered.
And a visual
inspection can determine that.
1. Secure - This is the toughest one, so bare with us. Keeping in mind most
professional
people feel that a gun should NOT  "jump" out of your holster. Since we all can
set up from
a bed in the morning. We feel that if you kneel down and lean forward until you
"catch
yourself" with your hands (As if breaking a fall from being pushed down) and
then go
down on your belly slowly and then get back up to your knees, we have "fairly"
and safely
tested to see if a gun will "jump" out of your holster. We are very mindful here
as not to
stress shooters that are not in good shape. We feel it is nevertheless important
to help
shooters by ensuring they have good equipment plus keeping a safe shooting
environment.

Holster Location:
Anywhere attached at the waist, as long as it complies with the "3 Holster
rules"
* Due to range environment safety we will have to disqualify:
1. Cross draw holsters
2. Fanny packs
** Once again we are not saying that these holsters are not great carry type
holsters. Due to the shooting sport match environment, the safety factor
simply prohibits them.

Scoring System:
Since IDSA is a self defense oriented sport, we will use this system.
Each Threat target will be either Neutralized or Not-neutralized.

To neutralize a threat target you will have to have a combined total of 8
points. Anything
less, the target is still a threat. The threat target will have 3 scoring rings
(And until all the
clubs joining IDSA have used their NON-IDSA targets, any 3 three ring target can
be
substituted until it is time to reorder IDSA Targets)
The center ring is worth 5 points
The next ring is worth 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor
The last ring is worth 3 points for Major and 2 points for Minor.

And for the obvious, Major vs. Minor section.

To preface this section: We have all either trained, been trained or at least
heard that "shot
placement" is probably the Most important in neutralizing a threat. So, in
keeping with this
belief. We have to ask ourselves when we choose a gun for self defense, "Do we
want less
BIG bullets or More smaller ones?"  And to put it another way, "had you
rather shoot someone with a .45 or a 9-mm?" Yes, there is a trade off. And it is
a REAL
factor when choosing a gun for "self defense".
If you are like almost "everyone" we have consulted, you are saying " I don't
want to be
penalized for shooting my 9-mm" But guess what, you aren't if you hit the
center.
Shooting Major factor MUST be just like the decision everyone makes when
choosing  their
self defense caliber. In other words. A Major MUST be major, and kick just as
hard as a Major caliber that you would shoot in your self defense gun. We will
be getting a
factory standard average of Major Caliber loads to use as our "power factor"
And the "Minor factor" will have a minimum of a standard 9-mm round.

These "power factors" will be established asap.

Gun Classifications.
This one was the toughest we must admit. We all wanted to keep it simple AND
have fewer
than more. We know we will not make everyone happy but here is what we have it
down to. (And remember, we are open for suggestions)
* One point we want to say first though. A bad guy, does not care what gun you
shoot, he
does care about what size bullet you hit him with. And we want the most people
to be able
to shoot with what they have while feeling like they are not "out gunned" And
lastly if the
shooter feels that he is truly "out gunned" than that might be the time to
choose another
gun for his self defense, YOU THINK?

We are holding our breath.

3 categories only:

1. Single Action (Cocked and Locked)
2. Non-Single Action Autos
3. Revolvers

Guys, please give this some thought.
Our thoughts were these:
1. Most people in high levels feel that single action guns do give a small but
distinct
advantage, even though they 'might" carry with them some "extra" maintenance
issues.
2. Really, the shooter has more to do with this shooting than the gun does.
3. If you choose to carry less bullets or this gun over that gun, than that is
YOUR
choice. And if you REALLy feel that there is a much better gun for what you are
tying to
do, which in this case is save your life. Well, shouldn't you save up and get
it?

And now the next level of breath holding. We go to modifications. Yes, a very
touchy
subject for many....

And before we jump off we want to bring up a very interesting and true fact that
gave us
some insight and actually changed some of our minds on this topic.
It was a "Gamer" shooter that put a red dot on his pistol several years ago. And
when Jerry
won with it, many shooters did the same. And yes they were called gamers also.
But today
our US Military are using red dot scopes on their M4's in Iraq to kill the bad
guys thus
saving their lives. And I dare say if it would not have been for Gamer Jerry,
more US
soldiers would be dieing.
So, IDSA differs in our opinion from some other shooting organizations. We feel
that
equipment that works and makes our lives safer is a good thing, no matter if it
is plastic,
leather, shiny or is made for "gamers". Bottom line is if it works and serves
our purpose it
is NOT evil gaming gear but life saving gear.

IDSA staff is still working on the "Gun Modification" section. But as you can
see we want to
put as few restrictions possible in this section.
We don't want a person to have to spend a ton of money to compete in IDSA but we
want
manufactures to have the ability to make self defense guns and equipment better,
faster,
sager, and more user friendly.

READERS, we will cut this off for now and give you all a chance to respond to
what we have
already said.

Thanks again for your attention and hopfully future support.

IDSA Staff