>But that's kind of the point, right?  Hoffman is sneering at less than
>$9M: forget that &@^#.

I may have it wrong, but what I thought I heard was that Hoffman was
sneering at $9M over two years.  In other words, $4.5M each year for two
years.  Not $9M per year.

We (not just CSML, but nearly every sports list I read) always get
messed up with statements like "$9M for two years".  Does that mean $9M
each year for two years, or $9M total, spread over two years, for $4M
the first year and $5M the second year, or perhaps $4M for each year
with a $1M signing bonus?

If Hoffman is expecting to get $9M *per year*, then forget it.  Not for
a 38-year-old who is at least an injury risk, though how much of a risk
is debatable.

I researched things a bit more, and here's what the San Diego Union
Tribune says
(http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20051129-9999-1s29padres.ht
ml):  "When the Padres and Hoffman last tried to broker a deal, in late
October, the club opened with a two-year guarantee of $10 million;
Hoffman, 38, countered with a three-year proposal of $25 million to $27
million."

So it sounds like we were both wrong.  Hoffman isn't sneering at less
than $9M per year, but the bar is set considerably higher than $9M
spread over two years.  But it also seems that Hoffman isn't going to be
getting $9M for each year, either.

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, David Shlapak <dshlapak@e...> wrote:
>  Of course the downside to the "Free beer tomorrow" strategy is that
There's Always Next Year(tm).

Well said, David!

On 12/1/05, Bob Collins <bcollinsrv7a@...> wrote:
>
>
> It's only December 1st. The free agent market stinks and the Indians
> have spent stupidly.


The exchange was much better than this single point, but where have the
Indians "spent stupidly?"  Boone's option, I guess, but that's all I can
think of.

--
> Steve Buffum
> Just Some Guy
> steve.buffum@...
> Austin, TX 78704


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Dec 1, 2005, at 12:45 , Mickey Ferguson wrote:

>>> According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the
>>> favorite to
>>> sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman.
>
>> Repeat after me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
>
> I respectfully disagree.  I don't like having to put as many dollars
> into the equation as will undoubtedly happen.  But Hoffman has been as
> dominant as Rivera, and still has gas left in the tank.  He just
> doesn't
> get the acclaim that Rivera gets because the team behind him hasn't
> been
> nearly as good.

I guess it all boils down to what we're paying him. The guy was
"insulted" by $9M/yr from the Padres; let's say that he's excited
enough to be moving to a "contender" that he'll settle for that from
Cleveland. How much of our salary room does that consume? It's a
$6.25M bump over what we paid our closer last year. Swapping Howry
for Cabrera saves us about $600K, so the 8th and 9th innings are
costing us $5.5M more than they did in '05. Add the money we're
getting from Pittsburgh ($3M?) in the Lawton/Rhodes deal to the
"$10-12M" payroll increase that Shapiro's been talking about and call
the pot $15M (unless, of course, the Pittsburgh cash is already
folded into the $10-12M number; anyone have any insight on that?).
You've spent more than a third of that on the closer. How much goes
for the pre-ordained increases for the guys with multi-year deals or
the pre-arbitration kids? Another third? So now we're down to $5M for
two starters and a RF. Jose Lima and Larry Bigbie, anyone?

Maybe the loony market for closers makes Riske valuable enough that
he and a marginal prospect (Brandon Phillips?) could get us a back-of-
the-rotation starter or RF, but chances are that "someone" is going
to cost more than Riske and the prospect. So even going the trade
route is likely to eat up money.

It's not that I dislike Trevor Hoffman (although, again, anyone who's
"insulted" by an offer of $9M to play a game---any game, at any
level--has, in my mind, some attitude issues) but rather I strongly
believe that there are other places where Cleveland needs to invest
its allegedly limited resources before blowing $9M on the ninth inning.

Cheers.

							 --- das

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, David Shlapak <dshlapak@e...>
wrote:
> Of course the downside to the "Free beer tomorrow" strategy is
that
> There's Always Next Year(tm). Would I trade a 30 percent chance
of
> winning the World Series in '06 for a 60 percent chance of winning
it
> in '07 (starting from the simplifying assumption that the two
> probabilities are independent)? Probably, but only if I'm
confident
> that in '07 I'm not gonna be told, "Oh, wait, the market for
position
> X is much worse than we thought, so we're gonna wait for '08."


But it sounds like you're assuming spending the money on a lesser
product now gives you an increased chance of achieving this goal,
and I don't think it does. Otherwise we wouldn't be hearing people
suggest the Indians shoudl spend X amount of money as a total
payroll, we'd be hearing guys says "we need to spend X amount of
money on THIS person or THAT person," and I don't hear that.

I don't think Esteban Loaiza, for example, is going to
significantly -- let alone predictably --  improve the team.

As for the "free beer tomorrow" philosophy, well, you're going to
employ it no matter whether you spend in the free agent market or
you don't. The goal of the squad is to have a solid franchise and
the "free beer tomorrow" philosophy is what got us 93 wins last
year. It involved recognizing that the talent availble to the team
and on the team was NOT going to lead to the goal. And so the
Indians used that fact to their advantage and, hence, we got an 18-
game winner, and a swell centerfielder and a neat desk paperweight
(Brandon Phillips).

The Indians are where they are and the free agent market is where it
is. So if someone were to say to me, "you can spend $8 million on
Jacques Jones this year or you can be in the running for Mark
Buehrle next year," you know, I'll take what's behind door #3 and
hope it's Mark Buehrle.

What I wouldn't accept is a disconnect between frugal spending this
year not having a direct -- and positive -- impact on the squad next

> "It takes a certain level of investment to win in baseball, and
if
> you don't make it, you don't win." Somehow all the facts get
ignored
> and the argument gets reduced do "Cleveland fans suck" or "Dolan
is
> cheap." Strawmen are fun, aren't they?

They are, but to some degree, that's what the payroll figure is.
But, again, the fact that the payroll is so small may just as easily
be due to the number of players -- excellent players, players that
we want to keep -- who aren't even arbitration eligible yet.
Hopefully, if your franchise is spending wisely, they can use money
to sign players -- as they have like Sabathia, and Martinez, and
Hafner -- and, hopefully, Peralta and Sizemore and Lee and
Westbrook -- to contracts below market value. We've certainly seen
the benefit of that.

But it makes no sense to me to inflate a payroll by OVERPAYING for
talent, thinking that there is a direct relationship independent of
the where that money goes.

Lost in the payroll figures are the fact that the Orioles and
Dodgers in recent years had huge payrools, and lousy teams. Why?
Becuase they spent stupidly. Now maybe they thought that spending
lavishly would be enough to compete.

Spending stupidly now also impacts your ability to spend smartly
later.

Look, I'm sorry that the Cleveland Indians fans were one of the
worst supporters of their franchise in baseball last year, but the
fact is they were. I'm sorry the Yankees drew $4 million fans, but
they did. I'm sorry the Red Sox merchandise, stadium deal, TV
network all give them a financial advantage over Cleveland, but it
does. I'm sorry the weather is all sunny and wonderful in San Diego
where Brian Giles lives, and is crappy and grey in Cleveland where
he doesn't, but it is.

There's nothing I can do about any of those things.  That's just the
way it is until baseball or global warming changes things.


> but in present-day terms, you do have to offer a Paul Byrd or
KEevin
> Millwood some ungodly amount of money. You do have to offer a
Brian
> Giles $35M or so over three years.

No, I don't think you DO have to do that.  You have to evaluate what
you CAN'T do if you do overpay for someone.   Because given the
realities described above, you're not going to get many chances to
throw your money away, so you better make sure -- damn sure --
you're wasting it properly.

The Indians have proven that you can spend $7 million and get a
pitcher to have a sub-3.00 ERA. You know what? I'll bet you $5 that
the whatever team pays twice that much for Kevin Millwood, doesn't
get what the Indians got for $7 million last year.

> to be doing over the past three or four years. But pretty much
> nobody--that's N-O-B-O-D-Y--in the free-agent era has built a
> champion that way. In the end, the farm system comes up empty

They most certainly did.  That's currency. Whether you like it or
not, that's money you can spend. I'm sorry, the free agent market
out there SUCKS. Bigtime. So if you had a good farm system, you can
get next year's free agents now. You just have to be willing to
spend that currency.

Most of the time, fans don't want to do that. They don't want to let
go of someone who's already on the team (unless it's someone they
don't like), so there's a psychological barrier in that.

It's only December 1st. The free agent market stinks and the Indians
have spent stupidly. We don't know know, yet, what will happen at
the winter meetings or what trades the team may make, or what
salaries they may take on.

But waiting for the Indians to become the Red Sox and Yankees is
wasting your time.

And if the fans really cared, they'd buy a frickin' ticket and put
some of THEIR money up.

Indians fans -- at least enough of them -- didn't do that in 2005.

That's a big part of the problem.

On 12/1/05, Tony Lastoria <tlastoria@...> wrote:
>
> --- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, David Shlapak <dshlapak@e...> wrote:
> >
> > On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:00 , jayce wrote:
> >
> > > According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the favorite
> to
> > > sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman.
> >
> > Repeat after me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
>
> I actually would like the signing, as I love Hoffman.  Just as long as
> the money spent doesn't preclude us from being able to fill the needs
> at RF and SP.


But that's kind of the point, right?  Hoffman is sneering at less than
$9M: forget that &@^#.

--
> Steve Buffum
> Just Some Guy
> steve.buffum@...
> Austin, TX 78704


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, David Shlapak <dshlapak@e...> wrote:
>
> On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:00 , jayce wrote:
>
> > According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the favorite
to
> > sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman.
>
> Repeat after me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I actually would like the signing, as I love Hoffman.  Just as long as
the money spent doesn't preclude us from being able to fill the needs
at RF and SP.

>>According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the favorite to
>>sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman.

>Repeat after me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

I respectfully disagree.  I don't like having to put as many dollars
into the equation as will undoubtedly happen.  But Hoffman has been as
dominant as Rivera, and still has gas left in the tank.  He just doesn't
get the acclaim that Rivera gets because the team behind him hasn't been
nearly as good.

If they can get Hoffman for no more than two years, I'm good with that.
Any longer, though, and there's too much risk.  I have no problem with
Cabrera being the killer setup man, especially because he's more likely
to get lots of innings, probably even more than a closer would get.
Plus, it keeps his salary down for a few more years until the
arbitrators / free agent sharks realize his real value.

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Lastoria" <tlastoria@y...>
wrote:
>
> Isn't he out until mid-June (at least) though?

I'm not sure. Oh, maybe it's a Boone-style deal!!!

On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:23 , <sfhubbard@...> <sfhubbard@...>
wrote:
>
>>
>> From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...>
> //You know, what IF the Indians looked ahead at NEXT year's free
> agent class and redirected resources there?  Since everyone is
> signing 3,4  year deals....I would think that would be a good idea. //
>
> This sounds like first-rate strategic thinking, and I wouldn't put
> it past the Indians (or any clever GMs) to think this way.  The
> problem with everyone stating how much payroll the Indians should
> have is that it ignores the multi-year aspects and the shackles
> that this puts on the team very quickly.

Of course the downside to the "Free beer tomorrow" strategy is that
There's Always Next Year(tm). Would I trade a 30 percent chance of
winning the World Series in '06 for a 60 percent chance of winning it
in '07 (starting from the simplifying assumption that the two
probabilities are independent)? Probably, but only if I'm confident
that in '07 I'm not gonna be told, "Oh, wait, the market for position
X is much worse than we thought, so we're gonna wait for '08." In
other words, it can be hard to tell strategic thinking from a
straight downhill run of black ice...

On a more general level, the point is not so much "Dolan is cheap" as
"It takes a certain level of investment to win in baseball, and if
you don't make it, you don't win." Somehow all the facts get ignored
and the argument gets reduced do "Cleveland fans suck" or "Dolan is
cheap." Strawmen are fun, aren't they? They just aren't helpful in
understanding the problem. The post-'94 history of major league
baseball makes very clear that to win you pretty much have to spend.
Not recklessly, not foolishly (see listing under "Hoffman, Trevor"),
but in present-day terms, you do have to offer a Paul Byrd or KEevin
Millwood some ungodly amount of money. You do have to offer a Brian
Giles $35M or so over three years.

It's great to talk about investing in the farm system and building
from the bottom up, and that's exactly what I've understood Cleveland
to be doing over the past three or four years. But pretty much
nobody--that's N-O-B-O-D-Y--in the free-agent era has built a
champion that way. In the end, the farm system comes up empty here
and there, and those holes either get filled (and you have a chance
of winning) or they don't (and you wind up living somewhere between
Kansas City and Oakland, outcome-wise). I've always thought that's
what Dolan meant when he said that he's spend "when the time was
right." Well, how much "righter" do we expect "the time" to get? Or,
conversely, how ignorant of baseball economics was Dolan to believe
that he could spend so little to accomplish so mcuh?

I don't know if Dolan is "cheap", because I have no idea how his
investment in the Indians relates to his available resources. Neither
does anyone else on this list. I do know that the self-imposed
"salary cap" figures I'm hearing from Shapiro are very likely to
prove inadequate to make this team into a serious contender for a
World Championship. That's a judgment based on looking at the entire
body of post-season experience under the current contractual regime.
If anyone's got another way of looking at the data--or other data
that they'd like to bring into the discussion--they should toss it
in. But just saying, "Ah, everyone just wants to blame Dolan for
being cheap" or "Money's got nothing to do with it" doesn't
constitute either.

Cheers.

							 --- das

On Dec 1, 2005, at 10:00 , jayce wrote:

> According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the favorite to
> sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman.

Repeat after me...NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2005, Tony Lastoria wrote:

> http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_pl
> aindealer/archives/2005_12.html#097026
>
> //Bo McKinnis said he had "substantive" talks with Indians General
> Manager Mark Shapiro on Wednesday that could lead to free agent right-
> hander Paul Byrd signing with Cleveland.
>
> "The talks were very productive talks," said McKinnis, Byrd's
> agent. "Mark made it clear he'd like to get something done or move on
> before the winter meetings. I tend to think Paul would like to pull the
> trigger before the meetings as well."//

Much more valuable than a closer if you ask me.  BTW:

"News: The Royals continue to pursue Byrd despite feeling the minimum
asking price will be $21 million over three years, according to The Kansas
City Star."

Isn't he out until mid-June (at least) though?

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "jayce" <lincury02@y...> wrote:
>
> I'm not a big fan of Octavio Dotel, but I know his name has been
> mentioned in different circles. He is a player that wouldn't require
> any longterm committment. The Rangers have offered him a one-year
> deal. I'm not sure of the money.
>
> A one-year deal is all that he wants so that he can do a
> Millwood...prove himself and head back out to free agency next year.
>
> Dotel has a career 3.63 ERA in relief roles with the Mets, Houston
> and, most recently, Oakland.
>
> Before the surgery, Dotel had a fastball in the mid-to-high 90s. He
> saved 36 games combined as a closer for Houston and Oakland in 2004.
>
> This wouldn't be so much different than when we originally got
Wickman.
>

I'm not a big fan of Octavio Dotel, but I know his name has been
mentioned in different circles. He is a player that wouldn't require
any longterm committment. The Rangers have offered him a one-year
deal. I'm not sure of the money.

A one-year deal is all that he wants so that he can do a
Millwood...prove himself and head back out to free agency next year.

Dotel has a career 3.63 ERA in relief roles with the Mets, Houston
and, most recently, Oakland.

Before the surgery, Dotel had a fastball in the mid-to-high 90s. He
saved 36 games combined as a closer for Houston and Oakland in 2004.

This wouldn't be so much different than when we originally got Wickman.

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "Tony Lastoria" <tlastoria@y...>
wrote:
> "The talks were very productive talks," said McKinnis, Byrd's
> agent. "Mark made it clear he'd like to get something done or move
on
> before the winter meetings. I tend to think Paul would like to pull
the
> trigger before the meetings as well."//

The LA Times is saying that Byrd would really like to stay with the
Angels and they have upped their offer to 2YR/$11M. They say that he
also has two-year offers from Cleveland, Texas, and Baltimore and
should decide this week.

http://www.cleveland.com/newslogs/plaindealer/index.ssf?/mtlogs/cleve_pl
aindealer/archives/2005_12.html#097026

//Bo McKinnis said he had "substantive" talks with Indians General
Manager Mark Shapiro on Wednesday that could lead to free agent right-
hander Paul Byrd signing with Cleveland.

"The talks were very productive talks," said McKinnis, Byrd's
agent. "Mark made it clear he'd like to get something done or move on
before the winter meetings. I tend to think Paul would like to pull the
trigger before the meetings as well."//

It looks like Bard is gonzo....and I would have to believe the
Indians eventually sweeten the pot to land Shealy.

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "jayce" <lincury02@y...> wrote:
>
> Rocky Mountain News:
>
> The Colorado Rockies continued the search for an experienced
catcher
> to share the load with Dan Ardoin in 2006 and filled out their
> scouting staff Wednesday.
> The Rockies have offered outfielder Larry Bigbie in trade talks
with
> Cleveland, for Josh Bard, and Seattle, for Yorvit Torrealba, a
source
> said, but neither side showed initial interest.
>
> The Indians asked, instead, for first baseman Ryan Shealy, whom the
> Rockies plan to keep with the hope he can share right field with
Brad
> Hawpe as well as be a backup to Todd Helton. Seattle indicated it
> wanted a starting pitcher, an area where the Rockies do not have a
> surplus.
>
> The talks with either team could rekindle if Cleveland and Seattle
are
> unable to find what they want from another team.
>

// Yes Walt -- PLEASE wait for that.  For it is then that we will need you
the most.

It's just the natural order of things. No much different than the old CSML
either. It's just that we're in the *(Fill in name of current owner
here)Dolan is cheap* season . In no time at all we'll be into the *Indians
win prediction* phase, followed by the *rock on unholy Tribe* era and
possible the *what were you thinking, Wedge* stage of things.

Plus the team hasn't even designated the coming season's version of Ruben
Amaro Jr./Geronimo Berroa yet.

'tis the season of hope, afterall.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...>
//You know, what IF the Indians looked ahead at NEXT year's free agent class and
redirected resources there?  Since everyone is signing 3,4  year deals....I
would think that would be a good idea. //

This sounds like first-rate strategic thinking, and I wouldn't put it past the
Indians (or any clever GMs) to think this way.  The problem with everyone
stating how much payroll the Indians should have is that it ignores the
multi-year aspects and the shackles that this puts on the team very quickly.  If
they can set some free agent targets a year in advance while teams like Toronto
and KC spend away this year, they could have a considerable edge.

Now, this involves a lot of risk.  First of all, the list of 06 free agents will
likely shrink a little bit due to contract extensions and the like.  It is also
SO important that the Indians make the playoffs in 2006 to get the windfall in
revenue.  In fact, I'll go even further and say that if that's the strategy,
they need to blast out of the gates in 2006 to create season-long excitement
about the team.



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> From: "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@...>
// I've read most of the messages posted on the new "CSML"
and.....well....I'm hitting the delete key way too often.  But that's just
me.

Don't give up yet, it's the off-season. Just wait until Casey Blake is
layin' down those bunts....//

Yes Walt -- PLEASE wait for that.  For it is then that we will need you the
most.


> Date: 2005/12/01 Thu AM 08:43:59 EST
> To: <clesports@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CSML] Tribe; Diamond in the Rough
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Rocky Mountain News:

The Colorado Rockies continued the search for an experienced catcher
to share the load with Dan Ardoin in 2006 and filled out their
scouting staff Wednesday.
The Rockies have offered outfielder Larry Bigbie in trade talks with
Cleveland, for Josh Bard, and Seattle, for Yorvit Torrealba, a source
said, but neither side showed initial interest.

The Indians asked, instead, for first baseman Ryan Shealy, whom the
Rockies plan to keep with the hope he can share right field with Brad
Hawpe as well as be a backup to Todd Helton. Seattle indicated it
wanted a starting pitcher, an area where the Rockies do not have a
surplus.

The talks with either team could rekindle if Cleveland and Seattle are
unable to find what they want from another team.

If I'm the Red Sox and  I can shed a $20 million a year contract, I totally
make the deal if I'm the Red Sox...especially IF I don't have to pay any of
Manny's salary.
The  fact the Red Sox are having a good off-season without having a GM tells
you why they didn't want to give more money than they were offering to their
previous "gm"


-----Original Message-----
From: clesports@yahoogroups.com [mailto:clesports@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of jayce
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 9:08 AM
To: clesports@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [CSML] Manuel on Wickman


I know yesterday we brought up- what exactly is going on with Bob
Wickman? I mentioned as Philly having interext in him possibly. Here
is the rocket scientist Charlie Manuel himself, ""Bob was my closer in
Cleveland, and he has guts," Manuel said. "He can do the job."

If the Phillies can't sign Trevor Hoffman, Wickman and Tom Gordon
become targets. There is also some talk of them possibly trading for
former Indian Danys Baez. The New York Post also says that they are in
serious negotiations with the Redsox involving former Indian Manny
Ramirez. Bobby Abreu would be part of the compensation.

The Redsox could have a very impressive offseason.








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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>
> From: Mark <koanzone@...>
//Eh, does this sound right to anyone who was around in
the ancient times? I thought it was more like Mark
Price and World B. Daughtery and Hop Scotch Williams
who 'saved' the Cavs.//

I don't have a problem recognizing World B Free for saving the Cavs.  For a few
years, he was the ONLY reason to watch that team, and he was darn fun to watch. 
He had a cool name that all the kids liked, and he scored in bunches.  Without
him, we might never have seen Price, Daugherty, and company here in Cleveland
because we might have not had a team.

> Date: 2005/12/01 Thu AM 01:35:35 EST
> To: clesports@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CSML] World B. Free
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

I know yesterday we brought up- what exactly is going on with Bob
Wickman? I mentioned as Philly having interext in him possibly. Here
is the rocket scientist Charlie Manuel himself, ""Bob was my closer in
Cleveland, and he has guts," Manuel said. "He can do the job."

If the Phillies can't sign Trevor Hoffman, Wickman and Tom Gordon
become targets. There is also some talk of them possibly trading for
former Indian Danys Baez. The New York Post also says that they are in
serious negotiations with the Redsox involving former Indian Manny
Ramirez. Bobby Abreu would be part of the compensation.

The Redsox could have a very impressive offseason.

On 12/1/05, Mark <koanzone@...> wrote:
>
> Eh, does this sound right to anyone who was around in
> the ancient times? I thought it was more like Mark
> Price and World B. Daughtery and Hop Scotch Williams
> who 'saved' the Cavs.
>
> World B. Free, credited with saving the Cavaliers'
> franchise in the mid-80s, was honored by the team at
> halftime. "My biggest championship was taking a team
> from the cellar and taking it to the promised land
> (the playoffs) like we did," said Free, who helped
> Cleveland go from a 2-19 start in 1984-85 to the postseason


It sounds like the argument is that without Free generating any
interest at all in the Cavs (and yes, Virginia, that was a bad team,
complete with Keith Lee and Dinner Bell Mel Turpin and John
Bagley and some very serious stiffitude), the team would have
gone the way of the KC-Omaha Kings and left the building,
Elvis-style.  Without Free, the franchise might have gotten the
wazoo before Price and Daugherty and Nance got a chance.

--
> Steve Buffum
> Just Some Guy
> steve.buffum@...
> Austin, TX 78704


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

According to the New York Daily News, the Indians are the favorite to
sign San Diego free agent closer Trevor Hoffman. I'd hate to commit
what it will take to sign a 38-year old closer, when the rotation and
rightfield still have question marks. Actually, I don't believe
they'll sign him anyways.

Well, hmmm...... the Oakland A's, as near as I can tell, are going to have
significantly less to keep Zito because they paid too much for Loaiza.  It'd
be OK with me if we didn't paty $10 million for a closer this year if some
of the money we WERE willing to pay could be redirected to enhance an offer
for some of these guys.

-----Original Message-----
From: clesports@yahoogroups.com [mailto:clesports@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Tony Lastoria
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 7:59 AM
To: clesports@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CSML] Konerko takes less to stay


--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@c...>
wrote:
> Anybody know who's on next year's list?

Next year's crop is much better.....

Here are some of the 2006 FA. I did not list anybody that had an
option for 07. I'm sure that I missed some players, especially
players that would be FA for the 1st time (6 years service time). Let
me know of any mistakes.

Barry Zito, lhp
Mark Mulder p
Jason Schmidt p
Jon Garland p
Brad Radke, rhp
Jeff Suppan p
Kelvim Escobar, rhp
Jose Contreras p
Orlando Hernandez p
Andy Pettitte, lhp
Randy Wolf p
Cory Lidle, rhp
Sidney Ponson p
Chan Ho Park, rhp

Eddie Guardado p
Danys Baez p
Miguel Batista, rhp
Cliff Politte p

Javy Lopez, c
Mike Lieberthal c
A.J. Pierzynski c

Derrek Lee, 1b
Darin Erstad, 1b
Phil Nevin, 1b
Sean Casey 1b
Matt Stairs 1b/of

Alfonso Soriano, 2b
Jeff Kent, 2b
Adam Kennedy, 2b

Melvin Mora, 3b

Gary Sheffield, of
Carlos Lee of
Trot Nixon, of
Raul Ibanez, of
Shannon Stewart, of
Juan Pierre, of
Dave Dellucci of
Cliff Floyd, of
Moises Alou of
Jay Payton of

Aubrey Huff DH






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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In clesports@yahoogroups.com, "Bob Collins" <bcollinsrv7a@c...>
wrote:
> Anybody know who's on next year's list?

Next year's crop is much better.....

Here are some of the 2006 FA. I did not list anybody that had an
option for 07. I'm sure that I missed some players, especially
players that would be FA for the 1st time (6 years service time). Let
me know of any mistakes.

Barry Zito, lhp
Mark Mulder p
Jason Schmidt p
Jon Garland p
Brad Radke, rhp
Jeff Suppan p
Kelvim Escobar, rhp
Jose Contreras p
Orlando Hernandez p
Andy Pettitte, lhp
Randy Wolf p
Cory Lidle, rhp
Sidney Ponson p
Chan Ho Park, rhp

Eddie Guardado p
Danys Baez p
Miguel Batista, rhp
Cliff Politte p

Javy Lopez, c
Mike Lieberthal c
A.J. Pierzynski c

Derrek Lee, 1b
Darin Erstad, 1b
Phil Nevin, 1b
Sean Casey 1b
Matt Stairs 1b/of

Alfonso Soriano, 2b
Jeff Kent, 2b
Adam Kennedy, 2b

Melvin Mora, 3b

Gary Sheffield, of
Carlos Lee of
Trot Nixon, of
Raul Ibanez, of
Shannon Stewart, of
Juan Pierre, of
Dave Dellucci of
Cliff Floyd, of
Moises Alou of
Jay Payton of

Aubrey Huff DH

// I've read most of the messages posted on the new "CSML"
and.....well....I'm hitting the delete key way too often.  But that's just
me.

Don't give up yet, it's the off-season. Just wait until Casey Blake is
layin' down those bunts....


  // My point of posting on this occasion is to agree with Bob Collin's post,
whether it was tongue in cheek or not.

It was not.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> > Hope they save some money for Mark Buehrle.
  > I hope they don't.

You know, what IF the Indians looked ahead at NEXT year's free agent class
and redirected resources there?  Since everyone is signing 3,4  year
deals....I would think that would be a good idea.   Buehrle wouldn't need a
lot of convincing to play in the AL Central and in the Ohio area. Just cash
and length of contract.  Anybody know who's on next year's list?


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]