> Anybody have any insights? How often do you replace your gloves? Do
> you wash them?

Hi Stu,

I haven't been active in old-school pugilism for a while, but I had
some luck with kendo gauntlets (kote) and fencing masks; the gloves
are relatively compact and the masks = no blood worries.

Actually, it shouldn't be difficult to make basic mufflers
specifically designed for pugilism training. Driving gloves, bag
gloves or somesuch as the base and a layer of 9.00 density closed-
cell foam covered with canvas over the knuckles would probably do the
trick.  Worth experimenting ...

Tony

Stuart McDermid wrote:

> This premature wear could be due to the fact that I had to soak Steve
> Hand's blood out of one pair and decided that I might as well just
> wash both pairs.

LOL...I sight I'd like to see! Good to hear you have at least one of those
swordy types
practicing a true manly art!

Slán
Ken

Hi Guys,

I noticed whilst sparring last night that my Karate hand pads are
becoming quite soft with what I would have thought is fairly limited
use over about 2 months.

This would probably add up to a solid half hour of sparring per week
when you take out rest periods and "kitting up" time. They aren't
expensive so this isn't a huge deal.

This premature wear could be due to the fact that I had to soak Steve
Hand's blood out of one pair and decided that I might as well just
wash both pairs.

Anybody have any insights? How often do you replace your gloves? Do
you wash them?
Cheers,
Stu.

Stickgrappler's a great guy.






>From: "Stuart McDermid" <s_j_mc@...>
>Reply-To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [classicpugilism] Re: Dempsey.
>Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 22:01:28 -0000
>
>HI Tim,
>
>I think "Stickgrappler" is going to archive the whole thing on his
>site.
>Cheers,
>Stu.
>


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HI Tim,

I think "Stickgrappler" is going to archive the whole thing on his
site.
Cheers,
Stu.

Hi Guys,

If you look over at the underground forum, a chap is typing out
Dempsey's book chapter by chapter. An interesting read. Just go to
the boxing forum.

http://www.mma.tv/TUF/index.cfm?FID=15

Cheers,
Stu.

I've been really working on advanced stuff in my Mui Thai training this
month. Things like jump spinning side kicks, wheel kicks, and jump spinning
elbow strikes. And YES, they DO work, and quite well-they're just not as
reliable as a regular roundhouse-which in turn is less reliable then a
humble jab. In addition to these "low percentage" moves, I've ALSO been
working in the humble heel trip from pugilism. When I close in to grapple, I
drive forward, plant my foot, and down he goes. But I've been having some
difficulty with any other pugilistic throw-although I have learned that
you're allowed to do pretty much anything you want to under MT rules,
including wrapping your arms around your opponent's legs, picking the guy
up, and tossing him out of the ring.

Does anyone have any recommendations on pugilism throws I can use?

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Milo ,if i had my way mate i'd throw the whole bike at him .

Best ,
Craig G








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--- In classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com, "craig gemeiner"
<ozsavate@h...> wrote:
> close range use of the chopper the author writes that this form
> of chopper should be delivered in a cycling action .

Why not hit him with your pump instead? ;-)

Seriously, though, this is very interesting. I'd call it a "hammer
fist", but it's what's described as a chopper by Mr. Beaumont. I don't
often get the opportunity to use it, but it is very good to the ribs
when holding one's adversary in the lock.
Milo.

Hi Tim ,
Renaud throws his chopper from the outside line so it travels inwards
towards his mid line a type of forehand chopper for want of a better word ,
very similar in the way Carl Cestari demonstrates in his video.

As well as the cycling type combination i sometimes like to follow  this
forehand chopper with a back hand chopper from the same hand which acts as a
clearing type maneuver snapping the opponents head back and opening him up
to other hits - all this will depend on range .

Cheers ,
Craig G .






>From: "Timothy Ruzicki" <timswma@...>
>Reply-To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [classicpugilism] La chopper
>Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 21:16:08 -0800
>


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Hi Guys,

I use the chopper quite a bit. It pretty much goes down the way
Mendoza said it should. A hanging parry with a uncross to a vertical
or almost vertical backfist blow. Once my opponent starts to expect
it, I move the body as if to deliver it downwards in the orthodox
manner and use the bottom of the fist to deliver it to the mark. This
works quite well if the other guy is not barring properly.
Cheers,
Stu.

craig gemeiner wrote:

> I have placed two pictures in the 'photos' section of Classicpugilism
> showing the close range use of the chopper the author writes that this form
> of chopper should be delivered in a cycling action .
>
> The pictures are taken from "La Defense Dans La rue" 1912 by Joseph -Renaud
> , Renuad covers the simple street use of bare fist fighting - attacking from
> passive guard and the use of the back heel .
>
> Having read various manuals on BFF it seems the chopper or back hand was
> delivered in a variety of angles ,i like this technique when used with the
> bare fist it's extremely fast especially as a riposte after a parry or guard
> ,so who uses the chopper in their training and 'how' do you use it .
>
> Craig G

Thanks for adding those Craig....they give a different view that I had not seen
thus far in the WMA. We do the chopper here quite abit. Mostly in the way
proscribed on Mendoza's Lessons on the LSD site and a few other methods...mostly
Mendoza style though.....but I sort like the way it is being done in the
pictures you posted and will definitely have to add that to our list of things
to look into.

Slán
Ken

Tim ,

Please let me know the cost involved as i would like to get a copy of this
book from you .

Cheers ,
Craig G






>From: "truzicki" <timswma@...>
>Reply-To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [classicpugilism] Re: another eBay find
>Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 18:27:55 -0000
>
>
>Hi all.  There's a good chance a mate of mine can get this book from
>a library for us.  If so, I'll be happy to web it...or at least make
>copies.  Tell me, if I can put a bunch of these books on CD, would
>people be interested in that format?  It's less expedient than the
>web, but also takes up less space (in terms of web-pages).  Lte me
>know what you all think.
>
>By the way, I just finished scanning Mendoza's memoirs.  I'll have
>them up on the web soon.
>
>Best Regards,
>-Tim.
>


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I have placed two pictures in the 'photos' section of Classicpugilism
showing the close range use of the chopper the author writes that this form
of chopper should be delivered in a cycling action .

The pictures are taken from "La Defense Dans La rue" 1912 by Joseph -Renaud
, Renuad covers the simple street use of bare fist fighting - attacking from
passive guard and the use of the back heel .

Having read various manuals on BFF it seems the chopper or back hand was
delivered in a variety of angles ,i like this technique when used with the
bare fist it's extremely fast especially as a riposte after a parry or guard
,so who uses the chopper in their training and 'how' do you use it .

Craig G










_________________________________________________________________
Hotmail now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to
http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/hotmail_mobile.asp

Hi all.  There's a good chance a mate of mine can get this book from
a library for us.  If so, I'll be happy to web it...or at least make
copies.  Tell me, if I can put a bunch of these books on CD, would
people be interested in that format?  It's less expedient than the
web, but also takes up less space (in terms of web-pages).  Lte me
know what you all think.

By the way, I just finished scanning Mendoza's memoirs.  I'll have
them up on the web soon.

Best Regards,
-Tim.

Sean O'Connor wrote:

> I saw this on eBay today. It looks interesting. I thought maybe
> someone with a scanner or ability to web this might want to snatch it
> up.
>
> P. Egan's BOXIANA Or, Sketches Of Ancient And Modern Pugilism,
> >From The Days Of The Renowned Broughton And Slack,
> To The Championship Of Cribb
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
> ViewItem&category=12568&item=3504712982&rd=1
>
> Sean

Good find Sean! I think this work is even more important than the other one
recently found. And alot cheaper too! An aweful lot of people have used this
as a reference.

Slán
Ken

I saw this on eBay today. It looks interesting. I thought maybe
someone with a scanner or ability to web this might want to snatch it
up.

P. Egan's BOXIANA Or, Sketches Of Ancient And Modern Pugilism,
From The Days Of The Renowned Broughton And Slack,
To The Championship Of Cribb

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&category=12568&item=3504712982&rd=1


Sean

Slán
Ken

Timothy Ruzicki wrote:

 

Hi all.  Well, due to an incredibly generous offer by our man, Pete Kautz, I'll be getting the first volume of Pugilista on-line.  I don't know when -- probably sometime this month or next.  Also, Missy's husband, Cliff Iverson, might be able to get his hands on the other two, at which time I'll web those as well.  I'll keep you all posted, but I wanted to send out a huge thanks to Pete and Cliff.

Best Regards,

-Tim.

GREAT!!!! thanks a ton Pete and Cliff!!!!  I may not own it, but i sure want to take a good look at it!

 Timothy Ruzicki <timswma@...> wrote:

Hi all.  Well, due to an incredibly generous offer by our man, Pete Kautz, I'll be getting the first volume of Pugilista on-line.  I don't know when -- probably sometime this month or next.  Also, Missy's husband, Cliff Iverson, might be able to get his hands on the other two, at which time I'll web those as well.  I'll keep you all posted, but I wanted to send out a huge thanks to Pete and Cliff. 

Best Regards,

-Tim.

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Well everyone....I got sniped at the last second! for a buck ($1)...bloody ebay

>Hi all.  Just finished reading Mendoza's memoirs.  They are, without a
doubt, a necessary read for anybody interested in
pugilism.  They don't contain much useful "how to" information, but the
glimpses into the culture of a professional pugilist is
fascinating.  Not to mention, of course, that Danny was quite a character --
constantly in debt and constantly scheming up ways to
stay one step ahead of the law.  In a lot of ways he was a complete
scoundrel, although from his perspective he was always the
innocent victim.

Anyhow, I was wondering if anyone has come across references to seconds
having bottles with them during a fight?  Mendoza
mentions it, and there's a plate from the front-piece for a pugilist club
that shows two gentlemen holding bottles and rags in their
hands.  Perhaps it's to treat wounds?

Another interesting fact I discovered from the book is how seconds used to
support their principles during the 30 second breaks
between rounds.  I knew the seconds were allowed to physically hold their
principles up during that time, but I didn't know they
did it by squatting and letting the principles actually sit on their bent
leg.  There's a depiction in the same front-piece, and Mendoza
discusses this briefly.

I'll be posting the pictures to the files section, and webbing the book soon.


Also, Eric -- I saw the posts about WC and BKB.  I know nothing about the WC,
but keep in mind that when throwing a vert. fist
punch, the whole front of the fist connects.  This distributes the force of
the impact over the entire fist, which diminishes the
danger to the hand (maximizing force while reducing the energy that is
concentrated in any single point in the fist).

Best Regards,
-Tim.

There are several different WC styles,but
essentially,Stuart is right.
When you look at it in more detail,boxing and WC are
not the same.
Bengt
EHCG


--- "Stuart McDermid <s_j_mc@...>"
<s_j_mc@...> wrote:
> --- In classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com, Eric Fick
> <thewhitewillsmith@y...> wrote:
> >
> > No offense to Stu, but I don't think the punching
> and/or striking
> is too different.
>
>
> Hi Eric,
>
> I must disagree.
> If you are punching Wing Chun Style whilst boxing,
> you are attacking
> from far too close in and are not properly
> committing bodyweight nor
> are you attacking in a true time. A boxing lead
> according to the
> manual I aam working with is delivered in a true
> time. The body and
> feet follow the hand. Wing Chun people will attampt
> to get very close
> before they initiate an attack. Their method of
> breaching distance
> resembles a Thai long knee with the hands in a
> similar position to
> Tony Blauer's SPEAR.
>
> Wing Chun is all about "interruptabilty" in both
> foot and handwork.
> Boxing is all about committing to the strike fully
> when it is
> launched unless it is a feint with the hands and
> keeping the footwork
> short and light.
>
> A good example is the left hand lead. A WC left hand
> blow is
> delivered along the centreline whether or not the
> other guy is
> already occupying it. They often even look for that
> bind to affect a
> trap. WC derived JKD even calls this the "asking
> hand".
>
> Boxing is all about using angles, feints and speed
> to elude the
> defending hands and moving head which brings me to
> the fact that WC
> people stay quite upright and never duck or slip
> anything.
> Cheers,
> Stu.
>
>
>
>


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I have finally managed to get around to advertising a seminar, details
of which are at http://www.sirwilliamhope.org
It will be a pugilism, wrestling and cudgelling event held in Oxford
on the 7th and 8th of June, with Ken as the guest instructor (thanks,
Ken).
Please e-mail me if interested.
Also, there was an event on today hosted by The Exiles (hopefully I
can get my hands of the tape of the brief pugilistic demonstration
bout). It was very interesting to see some parallels between the
pugilim and Rob Lovett's excellent (as ever) demonstration of his
Fiore interpretation.
Milo.

--- In classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com, Eric Fick
<thewhitewillsmith@y...> wrote:
>
> No offense to Stu, but I don't think the punching and/or striking
is too different.


Hi Eric,

I must disagree.
If you are punching Wing Chun Style whilst boxing, you are attacking
from far too close in and are not properly committing bodyweight nor
are you attacking in a true time. A boxing lead according to the
manual I aam working with is delivered in a true time. The body and
feet follow the hand. Wing Chun people will attampt to get very close
before they initiate an attack. Their method of breaching distance
resembles a Thai long knee with the hands in a similar position to
Tony Blauer's SPEAR.

Wing Chun is all about "interruptabilty" in both foot and handwork.
Boxing is all about committing to the strike fully when it is
launched unless it is a feint with the hands and keeping the footwork
short and light.

A good example is the left hand lead. A WC left hand blow is
delivered along the centreline whether or not the other guy is
already occupying it. They often even look for that bind to affect a
trap. WC derived JKD even calls this the "asking hand".

Boxing is all about using angles, feints and speed to elude the
defending hands and moving head which brings me to the fact that WC
people stay quite upright and never duck or slip anything.
Cheers,
Stu.

I think the REALLY central part of any particular art is the "attitude," the
mentality of the fighters involved. For example, when I was a wrestler, I
kept an attitude similar to that of a golem- all stable foundation,
immovable, unbreakable. Even if they dropped me to the ground, I'd assume
the "base" position and let them exhaust themselves trying to break me down.
My brother had more of a "water elemental sadist" attitude. He'd flow over
you, achieve a leg wrestling hold such as the aptly named "crucifix," then
leave you screaming and trying to assist in touching your shoulders to the
mat, just to end the pain.

In TKD, I had more of a "thundergod" mentality- slam them with singular
strikes, hoping to knock them out with a single blow. Fencing was like a
member of a debate team using his blade as he would logic. Now that I'm into
Mui Thai, it's like a rooster in a cockfight.

I've never really studied Wing Chun, but from what I understand, it's like
"becoming water," flowing over the guy and drowning him in strikes, whereas
BKB is more like a really agile gunfighter with an automatic, dodging
bullets while firing off quick bursts of his own ammo.

I have a bit of a problem with studying new styles, in that I tend to study
them under the pretense of already being a skilled fighter-albeit in another
style. I had huge problems with MT, for example, because I was using the
same "one strike one kill" mentality I had with TKD. I had to stop all
practice of TKD and approach MT with fresh eyes, in order to actually LEARN
the new style.

But, now that I have, I can selectively take certain techniques, such as the
TKD side kick(the most powerful kick ever devised) and use it within MT.
This has become "somewhat" acceptable to my instructor, because I'm a MT
fighter using TKD techs, not a TKD fighter using MT techs. Also, the side
kick is of necessity somewhat "modified" in MT, particularly in being fired
from a supporting leg balanced on the ball of the foot, as opposed to the
more stable heel to toe stance of a TKD fighter. It ends up being slightly
faster, but slightly less powerful. Any technique a style borrows from
another must therefore be able to mesh with the attitude. For example, can
you picture a BKB throwing a jump spinning hook kick? Or... pretty much
ANYTHING, from Capoeira?




>From: Eric Fick <thewhitewillsmith@...>
>Reply-To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: RE: [classicpugilism] Pugilism vs. Wing
>Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 13:10:18 -0800 (PST)
>
>
>No offense to Stu, but I don't think the punching and/or striking is to
>different.  Our Pugilisit (Mike) who took classical Wing chung as a child
>thought it was great the we were doing vertical fists and what we call
>choppers or back fists.  He said that when he was shown to strike with a
>strait punch to the face or neck to deliver the blow with his middle to
>little fingers knuckles.  However for body shots (because of the angle) it
>was to be delivered with the index and middle.  The use of choppers or back
>fist off of any position where you find you elbow elevated is exactly what
>we as pugilists do.  I will say that the footing was off a bit in a couple
>of the guards, but they were still positions found in WMA, just not
>specifically pugilism (I'll work on getting the wing chung names for the
>positions)  The basic guard that Mike illustrated was very similar to the
>basic pugilist guard (Humperie's I believe) with the exception that the
>rear hand was lower than the leed's elbow and that the hands were held open
>not in a fist (not to dissimilar to disregard) some of the positions (with
>regard to the feet) were that of a incartata or volte.  Some were the
>parallel stances found in silver for use with weapons (i think its called a
>horse stance, but that may not be in wing chung)  Mike had never barred the
>mark before nor had he stopped the blows by raising or lowering his
>elbow....the elbow was to remain in the same position always (hell of a
>time getting him over that!!!)
>Yadda yadda yadda........I'd rather talk about this over a beer......this
>isn't critical to the knowledge of our art just something that I thought
>was cool......
>Peace
>Eric
>  Bengt Abrahamsson <bengt90@...> wrote: I find that hard to believe.
>As have been pointed out,the
>footwork,bodymovement,punching and  strategy is
>different.
>Bengt
>EHCG
>
>
>--- Kirk Lawson <lklawson@...> wrote:
>
>
> > It's been suggested before that Wing Chun was
> > heavily influenced by Bare
> > Knuckle Boxing through contact with British sailors.
> >  I forget the guys
> > name but he's had some articles published in varios
> > ma mags (like BBM)
> > and he's been discussed in the past over on either
> > the bata or
> > western-arts yahoo groups (I don't recall which but
> > it'll be in the
> > archives).
> >
> > Peace favor your sword
> >  ---
> > "In these modern times, many men are wounded for not
> > having weapons or
> > knowledge of their use."
> >  -Achille Marozzo, 1536
> >
>
>
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