Just a heads-up that some issues of "Famous Fights", a Victorian-era
magazine about puglism, are being re-printed and offered for sale on Ebay.
The publisher says:

"What makes Famous Fights truly wonderful, is not the comments by
observers and journalists who were at the great fights of yesteryear,
nor the insights and documenting of points of history that may
otherwise have been lost; the standout feature of the magazine is the
incredible drawings and images contained within its pages. The very
best illustrator of the Victorian and Edwardian era was Harry
Furniss, and Harry profusely illustrated his publication with
beautiful line drawings (see scans that have been uploaded to Ebay).
Almost every page is adorned with a stunning image of the boxers, in
such detail that you can see the expressions on the faces of the
crowds and spectators. Famous Fights brings the whole prize-fight era
alive in a way that the other great historical works, Boxiana and
Pugilistica never did for me, and the primary reason for this, in my
opinion, is Furniss's line drawings."

Ebay links tend to break but you'll find the re-prints by searching for
"Famous Fights" under Non-Fiction Books > Sports > Boxing.

Tony

_________________________________________________________________
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On 3/31/07, Hans Alef <hansAlef@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Ken,
>
> thanks for the infos. I know about your seminar and I will take part of
> course. I also know Martin from Cologne - itŽs not far from Bonn. He is told
> me about your seminar.

Thats great Hans! WIth any luck at all I will get to meet with both
you and Martin in the coming months. I greatly look forward to it.

Just out of curiosity, is there a particular era you are most interested in?

Ken

On Sat, 2007-03-31 at 15:35 +0200, Hans Alef wrote:
>
> Hi Kirk,
>
> how much is that DVD ?
>
> regards
>
> Hans

$18 in the U.S.  A bit more for international shipping.  IIRC, it was
about $21 or $22 to Germany.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hello Terry,

thanks for this information. I would be glad, if you put me on a list about your seminars. My email adress is: hansalef@...

Regards

Hans 

SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und    kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

Hi Ken,

thanks for the infos. I know about your seminar and I will take part of course. I also know Martin from Cologne - it´s not far from Bonn. He is told me about your seminar.

Best wishes

Hans 

SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und    kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

Hi Kirk,

how much is that DVD ?

regards

Hans

SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und    kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

On 3/29/07, Hans Alef <hansAlef@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Terry,
>
> thank you for answering !
>
> Is there a school or a course, seminar in Germany where Pugilism is taught ?


Hi Hans,

You might want to contact Stefan Dieke here:
http://www.alte-kampfkunst.de/
He definitely knows his way around some historical western martial
arts and has some interest in pugilism as well. I will be coming to
Germany to give a seminar hosted by him sometime in the late
summer/early fall.

There is also list member Martin who is in Germany...I am not sure how
far you folks are from each other but hopefully the distances will not
be too great.

Ken

Corbett and Courtney Sparring (plus other unrelated stuff)

http://files.filefront.com/Edison_Fi.../fileinfo.html

>Hello Terry,
>
Hello Hans,
>
I'm sure I remember someone else from Germany posting on pugilism but
perhaps that was a different group. I notice also that Alex has posted
that Milo Thurston will be holding a seminar in Munich. Milo and his
crowd are very good and the seminar is sure to be well-received. If Milo
does teach pugilism then he may possibly teach 'my' system as he trains
in it with me. On the other hand he may teach 'his' system of pugilism,
either way you will get an intro into English/British barefist.
>
If you wish to have my email for further communication please let me
know or, alternatively, supply me with your email and I will contact
you.
>
Best wishes,
Terry
>
>
>thank you for answering !
>
>Is there a school or a course, seminar in Germany where Pugilism is taught ?
>
>Best regards
>
>Hans
>
--
Terry Brown

On Wed, 2007-03-28 at 11:13 +0200, Hans Alef wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> have you any idea how and where I could learn Pugilism ? Schools, DVDŽs,
youtube, seminars (espsecially in Germany), books or whatever.
>
> As you know I am not a beginner (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kick-Boxing) but I have no
nowledge of Pugilism.
>
> Thank for helping me !
>
> Hans

I offer a DVD of Ken's _Dempsey Style Boxing_ class.  As well, there is
also a VHS of the Pugilism class from last year's Cumann Bhata WMA
Seminar.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Hello Terry,

thank you for answering !

Is there a school or a course, seminar in Germany where Pugilism is taught ?

Best regards

Hans

SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und    kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

Thanks Neil,
>
Hans, I will be happy to give you any help I can.
>
Cheers,
Terry
>
>
>    Contact Terry Brown in London.  He often comes into this room and
>    has good skills and excellent ability to explain.  
>
>    Hans Alef <hansAlef@...> wrote:
>
>>       Dear friends,
>
>>       have you any idea how and where I could learn Pugilism ?
>>       Schools, DVD´s, youtube, seminars (espsecially in Germany),
>>       books or whatever.
>
>>       As you know I am not a beginner (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kick-Boxing)
>>       but I have no nowledge of Pugilism.
>
>>       Thank for helping me !
>
>>       Hans
>>       __________________________________________________________
--
Terry Brown

Terry Brown has a book out titled "English Martial Arts" that is
available through Amazon.com

You should also check out the historical manuals available online at
The Linacre School of Defense website www.sirwilliamhope.org

Thanks,
Richard S.


--- Neil Ricks <savageandpoet1@...> wrote:

> Contact Terry Brown in London.  He often comes into this room and has
> good skills and excellent ability to explain.
>
> Hans Alef <hansAlef@...> wrote:          Dear friends,
>
> have you any idea how and where I could learn Pugilism ? Schools,
> DVD´s, youtube, seminars (espsecially in Germany), books or whatever.
>
>
> As you know I am not a beginner (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kick-Boxing) but
> I have no nowledge of Pugilism.
>
> Thank for helping me !
>
> Hans
> __________________________________________________________
> SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
> kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192
>
>
>
>          BEGIN:VCARD
> VERSION:2.1
> N:Alef;Hans;;;
> FN:Hans Alef
> NOTE:In the name of the father.;
> TEL;HOME;VOICE:+491771861979
> TEL;WORK;CELL:+491771861979
> ADR;HOME:;;Langemarckstr. 20;Bonn;;53227;Deutschland
> EMAIL;INTERNET:hansalef@...
> END:VCARD
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.
>  Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta.




________________________________________________________________________________\
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Dear friends,

have you any idea how and where I could learn Pugilism ? Schools, DVD´s, youtube, seminars (espsecially in Germany), books or whatever.

As you know I am not a beginner (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kick-Boxing) but I have no nowledge of Pugilism.

Thank for helping me !

Hans
__________________________________________________________
SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

BEGIN:VCARD
VERSION:2.1
N:Alef;Hans;;;
FN:Hans Alef
NOTE:In the name of the father.;
TEL;HOME;VOICE:+491771861979
TEL;WORK;CELL:+491771861979
ADR;HOME:;;Langemarckstr. 20;Bonn;;53227;Deutschland
EMAIL;INTERNET:hansalef@...
END:VCARD

There was an article on pugilism in MMA in the February issue of
British MMA mag Fighters Only.

Dear friends,

have you any idea how and where I could learn Pugilism ? Schools, DVD´s,
youtube, seminars (espsecially in Germany), books or whatever.

As you know I am not a beginner (Muay Thai, Boxing, Kick-Boxing) but I have no
nowledge of Pugilism.

Thank for helping me !

Hans
_______________________________________________________________
SMS schreiben mit WEB.DE FreeMail - einfach, schnell und
kostenguenstig. Jetzt gleich testen! http://f.web.de/?mc=021192

Before I studied martial arts I got into a fight with a friend of mine in jr HS.
He did that very guard position, was taller than me with longer arms. I couldn't
get to him before the teacher broke it up

Thank you

Rick
Martial Arts Ebooks Books DVDs and Videos New Submission How to Win Any Fight in
3 Minutes or Less http://kirkhamsebooks.com/MartialArts/index.htm


----- Original Message ----
From: Ken Pfrenger <kenpfrenger@...>
To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2007 12:20:37 PM
Subject: Re: [classicpugilism] Re: Pugilism in MMA


On 3/26/07, Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc <tutor2000@...> wrote:
> Is the high guard hands way out in front of you fists up similar to what I'd
> seen in pics of John L Sullivan?

No RIck, it is the older guard where your hands are just as extended
in the Sullivan pics but your hands are held much higher at least at
the level of the chin.



Yahoo! Groups Links

> And Tony, I'm more
>    the type of person who enjoys watching my students bring home the
>    trophies. Stand off to the side and think, "I taught him that" ;)
>    Besides, I spent my time in the pits, and these kids today are
>    strong!
>
Quite right, there's no feeling to match that of watching your students
win championships.
>
>    I have been writing a series of articles on BKB that Jake Shannon
>    has been hosting on his site ScientificWrestling.com since it is a
>    pay site, I thought I'd post them here as well. I would enjoy any
>    and
>    all feedback. Anything you thought I'd missed or should be added,
>    anything. They aren't ment so much as a "how to", but as an
>    introduction to the art. I have three of them written. Attitude,
>    Power Generation, and Basic Punches. Next is Specialty Punches and
>    Trips, Throws, and Takedowns. Followed by Clinch and Standing
>    Wrestling.
>
Look forward to seeing them
>
Terry
>
>
>

--
Terry Brown

On Tue, 2007-03-27 at 00:44 +0000, Dan Kanagie wrote:
> Next is Specialty Punches and
> Trips, Throws, and Takedowns. Followed by Clinch and Standing
> Wrestling.

Funny you mention that.  I've been gearing up to write a Lulu book on
the Grappling of Pugilism.

I don't want to cut into your turf (so to speak).  :-)  Maybe we could
collaborate or something.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

I tell ya, once the word gets out, everyone in MMA will be
supplimenting their striking with Pugilism! And once I get my
promotion off the ground, Pugilism will be a recognized sport again.
I was just hired by a guy who is getting into MMA to help him with
his striking. He's been doing BJJ and Boxing for ten years. After one
1 hour session with me going over just the lead and rear straights,
he hired me to train him 3 times a week! It just takes getting the
individual to feel the difference, not just see it. The benefits of
the high extended guard, especially something along the lines of
Mendoza, in MMA is invaluable. I found that alot of wrestlers like
the Mendoza style additude, as it is close to the stance they are
used to in wrstling.
  Ken, congrats on your man winning his fight! It's always a great
feeling watching a student excel at their sport. And Tony, I'm more
the type of person who enjoys watching my students bring home the
trophies. Stand off to the side and think, "I taught him that" ;)
Besides, I spent my time in the pits, and these kids today are strong!
  I have been writing a series of articles on BKB that Jake Shannon
has been hosting on his site ScientificWrestling.com since it is a
pay site, I thought I'd post them here as well. I would enjoy any and
all feedback. Anything you thought I'd missed or should be added,
anything. They aren't ment so much as a "how to", but as an
introduction to the art. I have three of them written. Attitude,
Power Generation, and Basic Punches. Next is Specialty Punches and
Trips, Throws, and Takedowns. Followed by Clinch and Standing
Wrestling.

On 3/26/07, Sensei J. Richard Kirkham B.Sc <tutor2000@...> wrote:
> Is the high guard hands way out in front of you fists up similar to what I'd
> seen in pics of John L Sullivan?

No RIck, it is the older guard where your hands are just as extended
in the Sullivan pics but your hands are held much higher at least at
the level of the chin.

On 3/25/07, Dan Kanagie <ras_wic@...> wrote:
> Well I know of one team actively using Pugilism in MMA today. That
> would be me and my guys. It is IMHO the best method of striking for
> MMA. Here in Philly, MMA is considered BKB due to the small gloves (4-
> 7oz.) Also the fact that inside clinch fighting, standing wrestling,
> takedowns, trips, and throws are all part of the Pugilists arsenal,
> makes it a very adaptable style for modern MMA. Recently, I have been
> hired by a number of MMA fighters who do modern boxing/BJJ to help
> improve their striking. The word is getting out there. Not only has the
> vertical fist been "rediscovered", but so has the inverted fist for
> long hooks/roundhouse blows. Also the extended guard is returning. Not
> the extended guards of the LPR days, but the earlier versions from the
> Broughton days. A high, extended guard. Works great for bloking those
> pesky high kicks ti the head. Blocking in BKB is farther from the body
> then modern boxing. So the kick can be blocked before full power has
> been generated for the high kick. Making it safer to parry. Boxers
> can't get inside to hit, kickers can't stay back to kick, and wrestlers
> can't shoot in all because of the extended arms. It's all about
> controling distance.

Nice post Dan, I fully agree....as for fighting CroCop...we would all
be screwed regardless of what we do:)

I am working with a young mma fighter here, He just won his first
fight a month or so ago. Very good performance against a judo
blackbelt who could not ocntinue after the pummeling he received in
the first round. Just the last time we trained together I got him
working on a high extended guard much like Mendozas...he seems to be
really taking to it and seeing the worth right away. We will work on
it for a while and see if he can really make it his.

I see PA just recently lifted it's mma ban, that is good news for all
you fighters there in the state!

Ken

Is the high guard hands way out in front of you fists up similar to what I'd
seen in pics of John L Sullivan?

Rick

Martial Arts Ebooks Books DVDs and Videos New Submission How to Win Any Fight in
3 Minutes or Less
http://kirkhamsebooks.com/MartialArts/index.htm



----- Original Message ----
From: Terry Brown <terrybrown@...>
To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2007 7:04:12 AM
Subject: Re: [classicpugilism] Re: Pugilism in MMA


I was truly delighted to read of you and your team's experiences using
the high extended guard of the pre-LPR days.

I was truly delighted to read of you and your team's experiences using
the high extended guard of the pre-LPR days. I have been teaching this
guard for 27 years and, as anyone who has used it or fought against it
can tell you, it is so damned effective, regardless of the style it is
up against. As you rightly point out it controls kicking styles as
effectively as punching styles. You might be interested to know that in
the 19th century ten British bkb fighters travelled to Paris and fought
ten French savate practitioners, the bkb guys won ten-nil. One of my
students, not too long ago, with their trainers agreement, got in the
ring and fought three rounds apiece with three professional boxers, the
bouts were fought consecutively, he won all three fights. Obviously he
is fit and he is an ex-boxer himself so he is used to trading leather.
The important thing however is that he used the high extended guard
throughout and the bottom line is they just couldn't get through.
>
Interestingly enough, if you happen across any really old photos of Thai
boxers/boxing you will see a quite similar high extended stances.
>
In closing I would just ask why you are teaching it to everyone else
instead of winning all the trophies yourselves:) Only joking.
>
The fact is those guys where doing 'no-rules' combat centuries before
modern mma.
>
Best wishes,
Terry Brown
Company of maisters of the Science of Defence
>
>
>    Well I know of one team actively using Pugilism in MMA today. That
>    would be me and my guys. It is IMHO the best method of striking for
>    MMA. Here in Philly, MMA is considered BKB due to the small gloves
>    (4-
>    7oz.) Also the fact that inside clinch fighting, standing
>    wrestling,
>    takedowns, trips, and throws are all part of the Pugilists arsenal,
>    makes it a very adaptable style for modern MMA. Recently, I have
>    been
>    hired by a number of MMA fighters who do modern boxing/BJJ to help
>    improve their striking. The word is getting out there. Not only has
>    the
>    vertical fist been "rediscovered", but so has the inverted fist for
>    long hooks/roundhouse blows. Also the extended guard is returning.
>    Not
>    the extended guards of the LPR days, but the earlier versions from
>    the
>    Broughton days. A high, extended guard. Works great for bloking
>    those
>    pesky high kicks ti the head. Blocking in BKB is farther from the
>    body
>    then modern boxing. So the kick can be blocked before full power
>    has
>    been generated for the high kick. Making it safer to parry. Boxers
>    can't get inside to hit, kickers can't stay back to kick, and
>    wrestlers
>    can't shoot in all because of the extended arms. It's all about
>    controling distance.
>
>

--
Terry Brown

Well I know of one team actively using Pugilism in MMA today. That
would be me and my guys. It is IMHO the best method of striking for
MMA. Here in Philly, MMA is considered BKB due to the small gloves (4-
7oz.) Also the fact that inside clinch fighting, standing wrestling,
takedowns, trips, and throws are all part of the Pugilists arsenal,
makes it a very adaptable style for modern MMA. Recently, I have been
hired by a number of MMA fighters who do modern boxing/BJJ to help
improve their striking. The word is getting out there. Not only has the
vertical fist been "rediscovered", but so has the inverted fist for
long hooks/roundhouse blows. Also the extended guard is returning. Not
the extended guards of the LPR days, but the earlier versions from the
Broughton days. A high, extended guard. Works great for bloking those
pesky high kicks ti the head. Blocking in BKB is farther from the body
then modern boxing. So the kick can be blocked before full power has
been generated for the high kick. Making it safer to parry. Boxers
can't get inside to hit, kickers can't stay back to kick, and wrestlers
can't shoot in all because of the extended arms. It's all about
controling distance.

--- In classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com, "Sensei J. Richard Kirkham
B.Sc" <tutor2000@...> wrote:
>
> Makes sense
>
> They're having to reinvent the wheel learning how to hit practically
bare knuckle again without hurting or breaking their hands as well as
not being able to cover like you would if you had an 8 or 10 oounce
glove on
>
> Rick
>
>

I think one reason you don't see the extended guard in MMA is the
inclusion of the head kick. While the early pugilism matches had take
downs, throws, and general grappling they did not use kicks like those
used in MMA today. Try using a "lower" guard like Price's against
someone like Mirko CroCop and you'll be sucking canvas shortly.

I do think a lot of the fighters have re-discovered the vertical fist.

Josh Little
Ars Gladii
http://www.arsgladii.com

Makes sense

They're having to reinvent the wheel learning how to hit practically bare
knuckle again without hurting or breaking their hands as well as not being able
to cover like you would if you had an 8 or 10 oounce glove on

Rick


Martial Arts Ebooks Books DVDs and Videos New Submission How to Win Any Fight in
3 Minutes or Less
http://kirkhamsebooks.com/MartialArts/index.htm


----- Original Message ----
From: Kirk Lawson <lawson@...>
To: classicpugilism@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2007 6:21:37 PM
Subject: Re: [classicpugilism] Pugilism in MMA


On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 03:47 +0000, unable_to_find_unused_name wrote:
> Has anyone given serious thought to testing old-style pugilism in an
> MMA environment.

I think they've found it themselves.  I've noticed a lot of MMA stances
and hand/arm positions starting to look real similar to some of the
classic Pugilistic "attitudes."   Especially after they've been sparring
about for a while and are starting to get tired.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

On Sat, 2007-03-24 at 03:47 +0000, unable_to_find_unused_name wrote:
> Has anyone given serious thought to testing old-style pugilism in an
> MMA environment.

I think they've found it themselves.  I've noticed a lot of MMA stances
and hand/arm positions starting to look real similar to some of the
classic Pugilistic "attitudes."   Especially after they've been sparring
about for a while and are starting to get tired.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk