On 5/9/05, nic_stil <nic_stil@...> wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I am new to the group so here is a short introduction : I am 33,
> french and currently training in savate (from a self defense
> perspective) and "modern" boxing.

Hi Nicolas and welcome to the list. Please forgive the lateness of my reply.

> I am doing some research about bareknuckle boxing and I don't
> understand a point : what is the main difference between the
> London Prize Ring Rules of 1743 (Broughton's Rules) and the
> revised LPRR of 1848?

In my opinion the LPR rules are just an expansion on the earlier
Broughton rules. They went into greater detail and added a mess of new
fouls and discussed the attire, ring and physical layout of the boxers
and sport.


> Broughton wrote the 1743 rules to "humanize" the fight but
> its main proposal – the adoption of gloves – was rejected.
> So, I
> supposed that pre and post Broughton boxing were quite similar.

I think they could have been similar just due to the fighters
following an unwritten code which I believe Broughton wrote down and
expanded upon but remember that before the broughton rules were
adopted that it was perfectly legal to hit or kick a downed opponent
even if it was considered bad to do so there were no rules in place to
stop this.
Broughtons rules also prohibited against grabbing below the
waist...it did not prohibit boxing but it gave the fight more of a
boxing feel than the chance that it would turn into a wrestling match.

> I have a french translation of the LPRR of 1848 but I'm not sure
> it is very accurate. The § 16 states: "it is prohibited to
> seize
> an adversary by the waist, the leg or elsewhere". This would
> signify that seizing (so wrestling) was not allowed but, according
> to others sources like Ken Pfrenger and Tim Ruzicki articles, it
> was until the adoption of the Queensbury's Rules. And the
> Broughton
> Rules still prohibited to seize below the waist... So wrestling
> isn't the main difference ?

No wrestling is not the main difference between Broughton and LPR. In
the English version of the LPR it is clear that you may not seize
below the waist...grabbing and wrestling with a grip on the upper body
was still allowed just as in the Broughton rules.

> Even if the 1848 LPRR clearly prohibited head-butting, hitting
> below the belt, kicking and kneeing (etc.), I don't think it was
> very common before and it was still considered as bad tricks.
> It's not savate but boxing! But maybe, I'm wrong.

You are right to some extent...it was boxing and people wanted to see
two guys beat the hell out of each other but it often degenerated into
something a little more chaotic and at time that is just what the
fancy (or fans) wanted. Even well known pugilists like Humphrys and
Mendoza were guilty to stretching the limits of what was acceptable
and what was not, whether they were in the rules or not.

> Your answer will help me to understand why the guard changed so
> much between the LPRR of 1743 and 1848.

In truth I wish I knew for sure why things had changed...perhaps they
did not change quit so quickly or drastically as we might sometimes
think...perhaps they changed in part due to what the spectators
demanded?

LPRR were adopted in 1838.

Hope that helped a little more than it confused the matter.

ken:)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Nicolas
>
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