I think good technique is good technique, and proves itself time and again in
all applicable situations.  Does that mean it is always successful?  No, there
are just sometimes where a circumstance of a particular bout (or perhaps even
bouts) means that it won't work.  But, good technique should be somewhat self
evident.

Can "classical" fencing techniques be used in a modern "sport" competition?  I
believe so.  I think that good fencing technique should not be different
between either "classical" or "sport"; rather the desired outcome should be
different.  One is fencing for an arbitrary number of touches in a competitive
environment, the other is fencing as if for practicing the use of real weaponry
and is designed to teach a primarily martial practice.  However, the actual
techniques used should not always differ, nor should emphasis be taken away
from certain actions.  Done well, a "classical" action has a place on the
fencing strip.  And even a "sport" action can find a home in a "classical"
salle.

The problem is when you get to the extremes.  A true "sport" action has no
place anywhere else but in that environment.  Likewise a purely "classical"
action will never accomplish anything on the fencing strip.  I think that
others have provided wonderful examples already to illustrate this; certain
techniques only work in certain settings.  But, there is a good baseline of
actions that work well in both environments, because they are present in both
environments.  Honing these techniques works well in either place, and should
be the ultimate goal of the practicing fencer.  Then, the outcome can be
designated as either for "sport" purposes or "classical" purposes.  But the
goal should be learning good fencing technique.

I think this is a universal thing, not unique to either type of fencing.


-Brian

This is a great question. This question is not only a great
subject for discussion but in my humble opinon it should be the
title of the next Classical Fencing book.

Maitre Evagelista alludes to this question in his book titled
"The Inner Game of Fencing". I will quote just a couple of
sentences here:

"Even though a fencer is classically trained, winning is not a
  forgone conclusion, nor is it a right...

  You have to learn how to apply your skills effectively to defeat
  it (meaning Sports Fencing)...."

Here is my 2 cents from the perspective of a beginning fencing student.
You must take lessons and train with an instructor who has partcipated
in the Sports Fencing tournaments on a regular basis. You must also
bout as often as you can with Sports Fencers to be able to apply
what you have learned in the Salle on a Sports Fencing competition piste.
It is just like preparing for a standard exam. No matter how good or how smart
you are, you must take as many practice exams as possible to know
what type of questions will be asked. The more you prepare the better your
chances of getting a higher score.

    Regards,
    Sam

--- Zebee Johnstone <zebee@...> wrote:
> I don't normally read the fencing.net forums because I hate web forums.
>
> I did have a look and saw Yet Another Bash Of Classical Fencing, but it
> did get me to wonder.
>
> One of the points people kept coming back to was that classical fencing
> doesn't win bouts.




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All this in my own opinion, but I've been involved in
SF & CF both, so here goes...

Yes, the rules do make it difficult; or, at least the
INTERPRETATIONS of the rules do -- especially in foil
& sabre.  Forward motion of any kind is often seen as
an attack, whether the point/edge is really
threatening or not (good directors won't call it this
way, but a lot do).  Thus, a well-placed stop-thrust
by a CF-er will usually get called against him/her,
even if the opponent is really PREPARING the attack
via flick or anything else.  Also, since there's no
need to get a palpable thrust or de facto cut, any old
contact of blade on body will yield a touch in sabre
-- the slightest butterfly kiss will set off that box,
even if it would create a scratch with a sharp weapon.
  Foil isn't much better, though the FIE is changing
the technology to "fix" things (unnecessary, since all
you need to do is have better-trained directors).

Considering that SF has a lot of actions that we
aren't trained to defend against (because there's no
reason to in actual combat!), an inexperienced CF-er
is also at a disadvantage.

I do think there's an issue of overall experience, too
(and I think Chris Umbs would agree w/ me on this).
You're right -- classical fencers don't compete as
much, and especially not in USFA tourneys.  There's a
lot to be said for that -- the more you compete, the
better a competitor you are -- as well as for the
objective of "the art comes first" vs. "get a touch at
all costs." Different objectives yield different
results.

Having seen both sides, I think I can safely say that
the CF training regime does produce better, more
conscientious fencers.  However, it produces them more
slowly.  Technique vs. athleticism.  I would put my
money on a seasoned classical epeeist any day, and
know of at least one example where a classicalist beat
the tar out of an olympic veteran in a USFA event.
Unfortunately, truly seasoned people are few and far
between.  Lord knows I'm not one...

There is some bias, too (again, speaking from personal
experience).  SF-ers often like to think they have the
monopoly on fencing.  Many don't even like to
recognize the schlager mensuren as legitimate
swordsmanship -- I know because we used to talk about
it a lot before I ever even heard of CF.  If truly
classical people did well (and were vocal about it),
they probably wouldn't like to admit it.

Then again, there's also the fact that the best CF-ers
I know seldom, if ever, compete electrically.  They're
just not very interested...

Sorry about waxing prose-etic.  Comments?

Russell



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Hi,

  I'm new in both list and classical/historic fencing.
  I'm Brazilian with a very poor english, but I've many doubts.

  Actually, I'm trying understand the relationship between the sport
weapons (foil, epee, sabre) and the classical/historic weapons
(smallsword, rapier).
  dueling epee and sabre as a real weapon relly did exists ? How they
look like ?
  or are just remakes of real weapons ?

  smallsword > foil
  rapier > epee
  real sabre > sport sabre

  Some one could explain these relationships ?

thanks for kindness,
Renato Valezin

Zebee said:
>I did have a look and saw Yet Another Bash Of Classical Fencing

Hi Zebee - I'm on fencing.net pretty often, and must disagree: instead
of Yet Another Bash of Classical Fencing (YABCF), the tone was Yet
Another Bash of Evangelista (YABE), and there was quite an accepting
tone about CF.  The thread in question asked if Fencers Quarterly
Magazine was worth subscribing to.  There was overwhelming response
(which I was part of) saying "no", and a variety of posts distinguishing
CF from Evangelista. I quote one of the posters: "most people here have
no problem with classical fencing or SCA or theatrical or anything else.
each have their proper place in the world, just like there are many
different styles of martial arts, different flavors of bubble gum, etc."

Out of all the posters, only one said CF was bad fencing. All the others
were either supportive of CF while recognizing that it has separate
goals, or "live and let live". Almost everyone was united in their
contempt for Evangelista.

>One of the points people kept coming back to was that classical
>fencing doesn't win bouts. I'm curious, why is it so?

It may be the different goals and the different definitions people use
for CF, for that matter. CF defined as "classically styled fencing" does
in fact get good results - we would just note a fencer with classical
style. They do exist!  However, form is a means, not an end in SF.

If we define, as some do, CF as 19th century fencing, or mid-20th
century before scoring became electrified, then it does become
problematic.  Even leaving out things like the flick in foil, fencing
since 1960 is so much more ballistic and dependent on dynamic footwork,
and so much more athletic, that techniques of earlier years (such as 4th
intention attacks, long phrases with little motion, shorter distances,
frequent use of binds outside epee) are ineffective or risky. Since you
no longer have to stick a point so a judge can see it, hits can be
faster and be in low lines or to the back much more than was common
previously. Some CF actions, like passato soto or inquartata are now
only tricks that might work once in a while as a surprise, but are
otherwise likely to get you hit. So, not all CF tactics (using the
definition of CF that includes "use tactics that are no longer in much
use") are useful. It would be interesting to list CF techniques and
discuss whether they work or don't in SF context, and why. The recent
fads for flicks and marching attacks being granted ROW (a terrible
mistake, in my opinion) worsen this, but even without this, things have
changed. Put it this way: a sport fencer who fenced in the style of 1930
would have done poorly in 1984 (pre-flick!).

Finally, as Zebee suggests, self-identified CF people may not train for
SF competition. You can only do something well if you prepare to do it.
The tempo, distance, conditioning, selection of lines to attack, and
wider variation of styles a fencer will encounter on the piste have to
be accommodated.

regards, Jeff

>
> But it still seems odd to me that if CF is a viable good way of fencing
> that it shows poorly, is it all down to rules?

Some of the rules, and a lot of refereeing conventions do not favour
classical fencing, it's true. A lot of 'good' referees still give valid
attacks as whoever was moving first, no matter where the weapon was
pointing.

But classical technique can and does work. I'm not a 100% classical nut, I
just hate flicks and other rubbish that would not work with real blades, and
I teach from the standpoint of what would work in a real fight. (This is
where classical came from, after all).

My students, all beginners with 1-3 years' experience, have done very well
in competition this year, in opens, BUSA and region 'senior' competition.

At their own level, in region novice competition, they wiped the floor with
the opposition. We provided 3 of the 4 finalists at our last competition.

What works for me is to look at the classical movements and figure out why
they work, then hone them so they do and learn to apply them in ways that
give them the best chance of success. If you train to be a perfect classical
fencer, of course you'll not win competitions. If you train to compete and
'fight' using classical movements you may be a little less gorgeous in your
movements, but you may win more fights.

My opinion, anyhow...

Regards

MJD

Zebee,

>>One of the points people kept coming back to was that classical fencing
doesn't win bouts.

In the Classical Fencing tournaments which I have hosted at my salle, I have
found the opposite to be true.
Sport fencing doesn't win bouts. As a matter of fact few sport fencers ever
make it past the qualifying round.
None so far have ever made it anywhere near the top ten finalist positions.
And I'm talking about the best
Sport fencers in my USFA division, the ones that win the first place medals
in all the divisional and regional events.

The problem is that we are comparing apples to oranges.
They are both fruits, but that's where the similarities end.

>>Is there something in modern rules that makes it harder to win with
classical form?

The two have very different goals upon which the rules and methods are
built.
And that's makes it difficult for a fencer trained in one style to be as
successful in the other style.

Also fencers perform best in events that test what their training has
emphasized.

Classical fencing was and still is a martial art in which defense is
paramount and focused over offense.

Modern fencing is a highly athletic competitive sport in which offense is
paramount and focused over defense.

The rules of each of these forms of fencing reinforce these differences:

The 15 touch bouts in modern sport fencing make the game much more offensive
than Classical fencing's three touch and one touch bouts.
When a fencer has 15 touches to score he is much more inclined to take
chances by using risky techniques such as the fleche.
If it fails and he receives a riposte it's no big deal because his opponent
still has 14 more touches to go, so he can probably make up for that one
touch later in the bout.

However, in a classical foil bout to three touches the fencer must be much
more defensive. Allowing even one touch is not a wise option in a classical
foil bout. Therefore there certain techniques such as the fleche become much
more risky. The classical epee bout is even more defensive, almost pure
defense, because it is fought to one touch. Classical fencing is a martial
art and therefore defense is paramount to survival.

Generally classical fencers spend much more time practicing techniques and
form and less time bouting than their sport fencing counterparts.

Sport fencers spend much more time bouting with as many different fencers as
possible and drilling footwork, speed, and tactics and less time drilling
techniques than classical fencers. In most sport fencing clubs the fencers
have one to two hour bouting session three to five time s week so that they
will be well prepared for tournaments. Most of them also compete in regional
events once or twice every month. So sport fencers are generally better
trained for sport fencing tournaments than classical fencers. Of course
sport fencing is ALL about competing, according to sport fencing coaches.
Everything is preparation for competitive success in sport fencing training.


These are the reason I have found that sport fencers don't do as well in
classical events and classical fencers don't do as well in sport events.

If a classical fencer wants to be competitive in a sport fencing tournaments
he needs to train with a sport fencing coach and get in as much bouting
practice as he can. He must learn how to defend against the flick and the
fleche. He must build up his endurance so that he can handle the longer 15
touch bouts. He must develop speed and footwork equal to that of the sport
fencers. He must also learn to use the sport fencing rules to his advantage.

Several years ago I set out to prove to my sport fencing students that
classical fencing was "superior" to sport fencing. In spite of having gained
fifty pounds of weight, dealing with a serious heart problem, and being
greatly out shape, I entered a regional USFA foil event promising to use
nothing but pure classical form and not to stoop to any sport fencing
techniques. I competed against the top sport fencers in our division and
region and I almost passed out on the strip from exhaustion due to my lack
of endurance and preparation. However, I used a French grip and only
classical French form and techniques and managed to win third place in the
event, getting beat 15 to 13 and thus knocked out of the DEs by the guy who
won first place in the event.

One of my students, my best sport fencing student, came in second place
getting beat by a larger margin than I by the guy who knocked me out of the
DE. My sport students, who also competed in the event, were amazed that I
could do so well in a sport fencing event using "that archaic grip and
style." Afterwards I realized that if I had prepared for the event and had
been in better shape I probably would have won the event.

I say all this to say that a classical fencer can do well in a sport fencing
event if he knows what to expect from sport fencers and has prepared
properly for it. That really requires proper coaching and training against
sport fencers, which I had had earlier in my fencing career.

That's the last sport fencing tournament I competed in.
In spite of producing divisional, regional, and state champions, I quit
coaching sport fencing a couple of years ago, after years of growing
increasingly disgusted with the direction the FIE and USFA continued to take
it.

I prefer the original martial arts of classical and historical fencing over
the modern sport.
I continue to teach only classical and historical fencing and cane fighting
at my salle.

I hold a few classical and historical fencing tournaments each year, but not
nearly as many as I used to.
Competition, beating people, winning medals and showing off medals are ego
driven activities
I'm moving my students away from the ego driven aspects of fencing these
days.

Instead, our focus is on self-improvement and the mastery of the skills
which would allow one to survive a real encounter with sharp swords.

Sincerely,
Rez
--------------------------------------

Rez Johnson, M d'A

Headmaster: Mississippi Academy of Arms

Certified Moniteur d'Escrime (Fleuret, Epee, Sabre): Academie d'Armes
Internationale (AAI)
Certified Fencing Instructor (Foil, Epee, Saber): United States Fencing
Coaches Association (USFCA)
Fencing Master Apprentice of Past USFCA President, Robert F. Scranton,
Maitre d'Armes
Black Belt Instructor, USTFA & TFI (United States Traditional Fencing
Association) (Traditional Fencing International)

Mississippi Academy of Arms
Virtute et Armis - By Valor and Arms
Teaching Fencing Since 1980

--------------------------------------

Hi all,

     Just curious if there were any planned sabre or rapier classes,
seminars, or conferences to be help in the Southeastern United
States any time soon, or going on now? Specifically in or around
North Carolina or Mississippi?

Daniel McCallister

I don't normally read the fencing.net forums because I hate web forums.

I did have a look and saw Yet Another Bash Of Classical Fencing, but it
did get me to wonder.

One of the points people kept coming back to was that classical fencing
doesn't win bouts.

I'm curious, why is it so?

Is it that it does, but people don't recognise someone as a CFer unless
they are loudmouthed about it?

Is there something in modern rules that makes it harder to win with
classical form?

Is it that the only people into CF who compete in SF are those who aren't
much into CF or haven't done much fencing at all?

Is it that people do CF because the fun of fencing is the thing for them,
and competition just isn't interesting enough to get good at?

Are there CF people here who compete outside their salles?  And how do
they do, as well as they think they are capable of?  Better or worse
than those of comparable experience?

I am a lousy competition fighter myself, I enjoy playing and teaching, but
not competing.  This means that by the objective measurement of wins, I'm
not a "good fencer", although I'm told I make people work for their pay.
I wouldn't go out of my way to go to tournaments where people were very
focused on winning though, I'd not have any fun.  My suspicion is that
this is how a lot lf CF people feel, am I right?

But it still seems odd to me that if CF is a viable good way of fencing
that it shows poorly, is it all down to rules?

Zebee

Hi - Just subscribed as looking up fencing equipment history

Found classical fencing VERY interesting.. Annoying (well .. almost) how just
reading a few things in the many many pages made sense and I will have to
re-evaluate how I myself fence (got a competition in approx. 4 hours.. open
foil.... ) - I have had a break from competitive fencing for over 5 years and
just trained in a little club that my state association didn't even know still
existed (communication here not the best from the association - one would almost
say non existent - if you aren't a paid up competitive club..hmm..) - I will see
if any of these quick things I have read will make a diffeence (or if I will
just make their day again - I broke up the pecking order last time coming 6th
out of 16 .. a virtual unknwon fencer.... to most of them)

I am in south Australia and have been fencing for around 18 years, fencing in
Adelaide very small (and small minded... I love politics between and in small
groups.. not!), I fence all three weapons although mostly foil and leastly sabre
(no more sabreurs here..).

Anyway I was looking into collating info. about the development of fencing
equipment, not so much when this rule changed and when the maraging steel was
used and masks introduced but more in line with what brand of blade or type of
tip was introduced and used and when - that is for example:

companies such as forge scarone in Italy when started what supplied etc
soudet, france lames, allstar (and so on) -0 the history of these companies
The branding marks on the blades and who and why the change in brand or blade
type... the bow and arrow mark, the wierd marking of russion blades..
Tips and when they changed - point d'arrette, pineapple german french english
and the wonderful (!!???) chinese and Russian copies..
date's blades made and style of blade's changed - such as:
brands of blades and manufacturer's
when did the sabre blade (ok so that spelling gives me away as Australian I
guess!) change from solid tip to rolled..
timeline for Wilkinson sword blades - i.e. types and categories - for the
fencing types and the guards (as I have a few of their complete weapons and epee
guard marked Wilkinson)

Has this ever been done?
Someone's thesis - the history of fencing equipment?!


It has become initially an interest in finding the info. and not an obsession
(as yet) - any ideas?
I haven't contacted the suppliers as yet as it seems such a strange and obscure
question and I am not sure what they would think on this one - I am not sure
what I think some times...


I admit not too much interest by most fencers on discussion boards

Sorry guys this turned out to be a much longer first intro. email than I
thought... and apologies if this isn't exactly the classical fencing type
discussion butI look forward to any answers and to reading the remainder of your
web pages on classical and looking to make (or at least try!!) some of the
conferences or  a club if I am lucky enough to be local.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi everyone,

As you know the West Coast Sabre Conference July 17-18 2004:
http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/Sabre/Index.htm

is getting closer.  Unfortunately only 2 people registered for the event.  I
was wondering if any one is planning on coming but has not contacted us.  We
need to decide by next week if we are going to go ahead or cancel it due to
lack of interest.  We need about 10 people to break even.  Do you think that
this conference is a bad idea?  Should we reschedule?  Any comments our
ideas would be greatly appreciated.  If you want to send them to me off list
please do so at: j_sullins@...

Thanks for your interest!

John Sullins
Military Master at Arms

Dear all, (If OK with our web chief}there were some
queries about early parries-I would love to know if
the requestor got some good answers. Ray



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Jim, looking forward to seeing you there.

As for 'crossing blades', the VAST majority of fencers at 18th century
Historical Reenactments (myself included) have a great deal of interest but not
training or experience. Of course there are exceptions like Michel and Cleon,
(and others both on and off this list)--- but then fellows like 'us' look to
fellows like them for
pointers/instruction/advice ect.

In the last 3 or 4 years more and more reenactors at events have shown an
interest in 'after hours fencing'. Most seem to have either fenced 'a little'
sometime way back in their lives or have just always been drawn to it but never
had the chance.

All 'matches' are just for fun and safety is always foremost in our minds (as
with our firelocks).
Gloves and a sturdy mask are the basics, yet padding should also be worn --- a
breach cloth and a longshirt do not offer much protection --- however
regimentals seem to work just fine. Must be all that thick wool. (g)

See you next weekend.
Wayne / 'Angus'

Rogers Rangers
James Coy.
Montreal

http://reenacting.net/qhc/
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/North-EastReenactors18thCentury/

Jim Brown wrote:

> Dear List,
> I also will be at Fort Ti this coming week-end.
> Since I will be in the Jaegers Ranger camp I'll bring
> my foil & mask to try out.
> I've only taken a beginners course but I certainly
> would like to try it a bit!
> (Really a beginner...!)
> Jim & Cheryl Brown
>
> =====
> "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither
inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for
the assaulted and better for the assailants;  they serve rather to encourage
than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater
confidence than an armed man."
> --Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment(1764).
>
> To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them.
> ---George Mason
>
> "Let your gun be your constant companion on your walks this gives exercise to
the body and independence to the mind no free man shall ever be debarred the use
of guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
>
> "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for
> lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin
1759
>
> Most re-enactors have three goals:
> "To get the details right, have fun, and keep the history alive!"
>
>
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

Greetings fencers!
	 I wanted to remind everyone that the registration deadline for
Redwood Rapier camp is this Sunday; if you want to come to rapier camp
in July, you must call or email me in the next two days!

Visit www.martinez-destreza.com for more information and registration
forms.

Mail off your registrations now, don't miss out!

Antone Blair

Thanks for sharing the link. It will be interesting to see
if NBC will broadcast any Fencing events. According to the web
site, the complete broadcast schedule will be available in July.

     Sam

--- Michael Heggen <michael@...> wrote:
> Hi fencers,
>
> NBC has a nice little mini-history of Olympic fencing. .
>
> http://www.nbcolympics.com/fencing/about.html?ch=5
>
> (Unfortunately, other sections on their site contain such brilliancies
> as, "A lunging attacker closes the distance to the target by extending
> his or her *front* leg." On the other hand, pretty much every photo of
> electrical fencing in the last ten years seems to show fencers doing
> exactly that, so maybe NBC knows something the rest of us don't....)
>
>
> -Michael Heggen
> Salem Classical Fencing
> Salem, Oregon
> http://salem.classicalfencing.us
> michael@...
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>




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I have just subscibed to CFML today and hope it will be the start of
a long and enjoyable group. I reside in Vancouver Wa/ Portland Or
area and looking to make contact with fencing groups here. Any
suggestions on where to go or where NOT to go? Also, looking for
poeple or sites that sell good equipement for practice.

Thanks,
Chris

Hi fencers,

NBC has a nice little mini-history of Olympic fencing. .

http://www.nbcolympics.com/fencing/about.html?ch=5

(Unfortunately, other sections on their site contain such brilliancies
as, "A lunging attacker closes the distance to the target by extending
his or her *front* leg." On the other hand, pretty much every photo of
electrical fencing in the last ten years seems to show fencers doing
exactly that, so maybe NBC knows something the rest of us don't....)


-Michael Heggen
Salem Classical Fencing
Salem, Oregon
http://salem.classicalfencing.us
michael@...


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Sorry to bother you again, but the list owner mentioned I could download
several examples of this portrait painter's works.
They are in the Photo section.
Please contact me off list if interested.
Thanks so much for you time.
Angus

Some have had trouble accessing the site.
If so just contact me and I'll send you some pics of his work.
Angus

maggie and wayne wrote:

> Earlier I sent a  post about a gentleman that does superb 18th century
> portraits.
> Here is my web page where you can see a couple of his pieces.
> My humble photos do not do his work justice.
> He is not cheap, but then 'immortality' never is.
> One look at his paintings and you are 'there'.
>
> Angus MacCaw
> Rogers rangers
> James Coy.
>
> PS  Here is the URL where you can see a bit of his work.
> http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/north-eastreen


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

A friend of mine has a father that is a painter.
Not just an ordinary painter, but one who specializes in 18th century
portraits. Please excuse the 'pitch', but he is getting on in age and I would
like to give all of you the chance to have your own portrait done by this
master.

Here is a sample portrait he has done:

<http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/classicalfencing/lst?.dir=/swanny>

If interested, please give me a call off list.
Thanks for you patience and understanding.
Angus

PS Some examples of his work will be on display at Ticonderoga the end
of June.

Michael,

That is exactly the solution I have used for years and is has worked out
just fine.  Good luck with your new salle!

John Sullins
Military Master at Arms

______________________________________________________________________

Message: 1
    Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 13:28:39 -0700
    From: "Michael Heggen" <michael@...>
Subject: salle insurance through USFA

Hi folks,

Salem Classical Fencing is now settling into its new digs, I am pleased
to report. Yes, we actually have dedicated space of our own now, in a
140-year-old former lumber sales building with 25-foot ceilings.

Anyway, our move to independence from the local YMCA raised a number of
interesting issues, not the least of which was liability insurance
coverage. But, insurance should be fairly easy, right???

Wrong! The lowest (and ONLY) quote I could find was for about $800
annually -- and that did not cover exhibitions and tournaments (~$250
each for those).

In desperation, I looked to the dear ol' USFA. The USFA has seemingly
cornered the American market on fencing liability insurance. I even
talked to the company that writes the coverage for the USFA and they
said no. Hmmm....

Anyway, the USFA offers its member clubs a $2 million liability policy
for less than $300 annually. Score!

The big question for us was tournament coverage, as our tournaments use
different rules, etc. It took some questioning of a couple of different
folks, but I just received the answer from the USFA's membership
director, Dana Brown.

She tells me (in writing) that our classical tournaments ARE covered,
even though they are NOT sanctioned by the USFA. Sanctioning is required
to earn USFA classifications -- which we don't care about -- but it is
not a requirement for insurance coverage.

As a side note, classical tournaments cannot be USFA sanctioned because
they do not use electrical scoring apparatus. Also, because there is no
need for our tournaments to be sanctioned, there is no requirement for
our fencers to be USFA members (which appears to be a requirement for
sanctioning).

We are still awaiting clarification as to exactly what equipment is
required for insurance coverage (namely, the question centers in whether
underarm protectors (UAPs) and knickers are required.

So, for those of you with classical fencing studios who are NOT involved
in historical fencing (which does not appear to be a covered activity),
the US Fencing Association is an excellent value for insurance. Even
though your salle may have a drastically different philosophy from that
of the USFA, it is worth joining the USFA just for the insurance coverage.

If someone out there has found a better way to obtain insurance for
classical studios that do not practice historical fencing, I would be
happy to hear your story.....

-Michael Heggen, president
Salem Classical Fencing
Salem, Oregon
michael@...
http://salem.classicalfencing.us

Greetings fencers,
	 This is just a reminder that the final deadline for the Redwood
Rapier Camp is fast approaching.  The deadline for registration is July
20, which is now only 10 days away!  Don't miss out on the best rapier
training event in the modern world!

For more information and registration forms, see www.martinez-
destreza.com

Please pass this along to any lists or individuals you think might be
interested.  Hope to see everyone there!

Antone Blair

Hi folks,

Salem Classical Fencing is now settling into its new digs, I am pleased
to report. Yes, we actually have dedicated space of our own now, in a
140-year-old former lumber sales building with 25-foot ceilings.

Anyway, our move to independence from the local YMCA raised a number of
interesting issues, not the least of which was liability insurance
coverage. But, insurance should be fairly easy, right???

Wrong! The lowest (and ONLY) quote I could find was for about $800
annually -- and that did not cover exhibitions and tournaments (~$250
each for those).

In desperation, I looked to the dear ol' USFA. The USFA has seemingly
cornered the American market on fencing liability insurance. I even
talked to the company that writes the coverage for the USFA and they
said no. Hmmm....

Anyway, the USFA offers its member clubs a $2 million liability policy
for less than $300 annually. Score!

The big question for us was tournament coverage, as our tournaments use
different rules, etc. It took some questioning of a couple of different
folks, but I just received the answer from the USFA's membership
director, Dana Brown.

She tells me (in writing) that our classical tournaments ARE covered,
even though they are NOT sanctioned by the USFA. Sanctioning is required
to earn USFA classifications -- which we don't care about -- but it is
not a requirement for insurance coverage.

As a side note, classical tournaments cannot be USFA sanctioned because
they do not use electrical scoring apparatus. Also, because there is no
need for our tournaments to be sanctioned, there is no requirement for
our fencers to be USFA members (which appears to be a requirement for
sanctioning).

We are still awaiting clarification as to exactly what equipment is
required for insurance coverage (namely, the question centers in whether
underarm protectors (UAPs) and knickers are required.

So, for those of you with classical fencing studios who are NOT involved
in historical fencing (which does not appear to be a covered activity),
the US Fencing Association is an excellent value for insurance. Even
though your salle may have a drastically different philosophy from that
of the USFA, it is worth joining the USFA just for the insurance coverage.

If someone out there has found a better way to obtain insurance for
classical studios that do not practice historical fencing, I would be
happy to hear your story.....

-Michael Heggen, president
Salem Classical Fencing
Salem, Oregon
michael@...
http://salem.classicalfencing.us

I don't think that these are changes that occurred all at once. I know for a
fact that the
USFA (& FIE, I'd imagine) rules specify that guards must be round and of a
certain size, but
I've seen modern (mid 20th c.) guards that are oval or rectangular, and I think
that they
were manufactuered up until the 50s, and so, probably used at least that long.

Threaded pommels probably became common with modern mechanization, ie: the
availabilty of cheap, reliable screws, taps & dies. I have some foils from the
20s (with
figure 8 guards, by the way) that use both threading & hammering. The pommels
are held
in place by a small nut placed behind the pommel & screwed tight (tang & nut are
threaded, the pommel isn't), and then the tip of the tang is hammered over the
nut.
I'd guess that the shift from hammered to screwed pommels was a gradual one. I
can't
think of a way that that might affect the fencing action, so it's likely that
the rules left that
alone, and I'd say it was a matter of convenience.

Has anyone made an historical study of the FIE/USFA rules, or is old enough to
remember
back that far?

Cheers,
Jeff

--- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, "Chris" <c_holzman@h...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Anyone have any clue as to when peened on pommels on fencing weapons
> disappeared?  Did the threaded pommel immediately become the norm?
> I seem to remember seeing a couple of two part pressfit looking
> pommels in a box of old pommels some years ago, but couldn't figure
> out what kept the halves together - Also, when did the figure eight
> foil guard get dropped from usage, and was it a mandated change in
> the rules, or was it a choice migration to the current little round
> guards, that later became required?    help, anyone?
>
> Thanks.
>
> chris

Hi,

Anyone have any clue as to when peened on pommels on fencing weapons
disappeared?  Did the threaded pommel immediately become the norm?
I seem to remember seeing a couple of two part pressfit looking
pommels in a box of old pommels some years ago, but couldn't figure
out what kept the halves together - Also, when did the figure eight
foil guard get dropped from usage, and was it a mandated change in
the rules, or was it a choice migration to the current little round
guards, that later became required?    help, anyone?

Thanks.

chris

I don't know about classical fencing in Seattle, but if you want to try out
historical Academia Della Spada is up there and doing some good thing. :-)

You might also check out http://www.nwhfa.com (Northwest Historical Fencing
Association, site still in progress)

Cheers,
Andrew

Hi everybody! I'm Sudarshan and I recently joined the classical
fencing mailing list. I live in Champaign, IL, and I just started
learning fencing.

I'll be moving to Seattle soon, and I'd like to continue learning
classical fencing there. Does anyone know of any clubs or schools that
teach classical fencing in Seattle? I know a couple of fencing clubs
that teach sport fencing, but I think my first preference would be for
classical. I searched the message archives here and didn't find anything.

Also, how much unlearning/learning would be involved if I were to
start off learning modern fencing and then switch to classical fencing
in the event that I'm not able to find a suitable club?

Thanks in advance!

Sudarshan

Hello,

Just want to send an update to let you know that Dwight's Master class is
closed as well as James Loriega's Master class.  We are offering a second
block of James Loriega's class on Sat now, but this and several other
classes only have 1 or 2 slot still available.

We have also added a bulletin board to the website that will have important
announcements regarding the workshop, so make sure that you check that
often.

I look forward to seeing many of you in 2 months!

TTFN

Jared Kirby

Twenty good Qualities will not make you perfect, and one bad one will hinder
your being so.
-L'abbat

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

Hello fencers,

This is a reminder that in order to get the early registration price for
Redwood Rapier camp, you must send in your registration by May 20
(Thursday!) after which time the price jumps to $725!  Please register
or email me ASAP if you wish to pay the discount registration price!

For more information on the world's one and only week long rapier camp
see:
   www.martinez-destreza.com

Antone Blair

Hey all,

I want to let everyone know that the tenative schedule is now posted for the
5th Annual ISMAC in Lansing, MI.
http://artofcombat.org/public/thespis/convention/aocflyer.htm

-There are 45 classes over a 3 day weekend (Aug 6-8).

-Maestro and master classes (which are filling up quickly!)

-Three special presentations during the lunch breaks.

-Not to mention there are TWO tournaments this year for Rapier and
Singlestick!

-A special night of coached bouts with the Masters!

-Once again we will also offer private lessons with the instructors!

So what are you waiting for?

TTFN

Jared Kirby

_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee®
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963