And awful lot of what I learned about training was 35 or 40 years ago, and so
when I had to change sports, and also rehabilitate my left hand, this became
an issue.

Some of the books, particularly The Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for
Fencing, argue that building strength does build speed, particularly if you
train with heavier weights and fewer reps than usual.

As for plyometrics, some aspects of this have been in use for many years
without the fancy name. Any sudden movement will be anaerobic. Indeed, it is
argued that the 100 yard dash is anaerobic, since it takes a bit more than 10
seconds for the oxygen to get into the body and muscles. Anyhow, the sudden
movements like the lunge, balestra (if allowed), etc, last only seconds or
fractions of a second. Then there is usually a period of several seconds when
the body can try to recover--re-oxygenate, and draw on stores of glycogen, or
replenish them.

However, your reminder that in fencing we must do the contraction (extension)
without preparation (telegraphing) is very important. Thus, all motions should
be as similar as possible to fencing motions. In particular, as you say,
motions generally start from a relaxed rest with limbs bent, and, in
particular, you do not counter-tense muscles so that the sudden release of the
muscle opposing the motion speeds the motion--particularly the start of the
motion.

The impression I have of plyometrics is that repeated sudden actions will
possibly stimulate the body to sudden exertion and quick recovery.

In any event, I do not see that conventional running training will be of much
use for fencing. This is long, slow aerobic exercise. Sprints, and what I
learned to call "wind sprints," would likely be better. That is, repeat a 4
second maximum exertion followed by a 4 second rest (maybe longer, depending
on your thinking. I find 8-10 seconds to be better, but I'm probably a LOT
older), repeated to exhaustion, would be good for the heart, lungs, and body
chemistry (glycogen). This is similar to fencing--a pass, then a pause for
scoring or setup of the next pass. This is what your body has to learn to
accommodate.

Strength is not generally a major requirement, but if you do weight lifting
with free weights, and no lifting straps, and maybe some wrist curls, etc.,
you will get needed hand strength to maneuver the weapon with fingers. For the
legs, you want to be developing strength for jumps and quick lunges. This can
be done with weights (emulate the motion with a barbell on the shoulder). But
this is, to my reading, close to plyometrics.

The main thing to remember is that quickness can be trained and developed.
Also, you learn to respond to situations faster. Reportedly, Joe Louis, the
boxer, would jab his opponent before he consciously recognized the opening.
But that requires exercises with an opponent. Beck and Barth do mention
automatic pells and say that these have to respond quicker than a human can to
be beneficial (or more beneficial than practice with a training partner).
Volkmann (I didn't mention his book, but most of the dealers have it) has
plans for a pell with a movable arm that is spring-loaded at the "wrist" to
give quick responses, at least to beats. I've seen plans for a version on the
internet and a couple of people have them for sale.

I remain somewhat unconvinced by your argument that there is no time in a
training regimen for specific strength or speed training. There are many
drills in a conventional training program, and, at the advanced level, these
are more than necessary. Thus, some of these could be converted to, or
replaced by strength or speed exercises.

I would also point out that if done with free weights, a few repetitions of a
few exercises will thoroughly exercise the body. And that heavy training
should be done on alternate days. Thus, it's a matter of scheduling. If
practices are M-W-F, than weight, sprint, etc, would be done Tu-Th-Sa (and
could be cut to twice a week with some loss in efficacy).

Not mentioned are video games for hand-eye coordination. The military claims
some benefits, but the games have to be designed for the particular activity.
There are a couple of fencing games on the Leon Paul website, but I haven't
tried them.

One other bete noir of mine is the use of stretches as a warmup. Studies have
shown that stretching before exercise does not warm the muscles or prevent
injury. You want to do a warmup that uses the same muscles as the activity so
they are warm. Stretching to gain flexibility is best done after exercise when
the muscles are warm. And if you have a body-type that is not flexible, you
can improve, but don't expect to become really flexible.

And learn to deal with your body type. Women are different from men, and, as I
first learned in karate over 30 years ago, size matters. I have a 35 inch
sleeve. I have sometimes used a short weapon to "even things out" with a short
woman.

--
___ __ chessler@...
d_)--/d chessler@... {"permanent" address}



------ Original Message ------
Received: Fri, 21 Nov 2008 10:24:23 AM EST
From: Michael Heggen <michael@...>
To: classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CFML] Re: Sprints?

> Thanks for the links, David.
>
> However, the jury is still out on plyometrics—both in general, due to
> increased risk of injury during training, and in particular as to
> whether plyometrics is more beneficial for fencing than training using
> actual fencing movements.
>
> A study comparing plyometrics to sprints, for example, found that both
> forms of training improved vertical and horizontal jump distances by
> equal amounts, but found that sprints were slightly more effective at
> improving performance at the 20m sprint and shuttle runs. In other
> words, the form of training that is closest to the actual action
> provides the best results for that action.
>
> This subject also came up this year at the USFCA national conference
> in the strength training workshop. The presenter (himself a former NFL
> player who does strength training professionally, including for NFL
> teams, and who uses plyometrics for many of his clients) pointed out
> that plyometrics DOES train athletes for explosive movements, but that
> this is NOT the kind of training one wants for fencers. I know this
> sounds counter-intuitive, as you're probably saying, "What's more
> explosive than a lunge???"
>
> The problem is that speed in fencing comes from joints that are kept
> loose and muscles that are supple (with virtually no time allowed to
> prepare for the action), and that speed needs to be reproducible
> dozens (or even hundreds) of times an hour for several hours during a
> competition—i.e. aerobic activity. Plyometrics, on the other hand,
> excels at improving explosive power, which is by definition anaerobic.
>
> Plyometrics also depends on concentric contraction of the affected
> muscles, which means that the muscles are stretched under load
> immediately before the desired action (with a very short window of
> opportunity). In games like basketball, this shows up as the quick
> bend in the knees before a jump, for example. In fencing, the fraction
> of second required for concentric contraction telegraphs the fencer's
> intention and delays the action—not good. In football, for example, a
> player has time for concentric contraction—even in timing critical
> activities like intercepting a pass—because he is working against an
> object with a fixed, predictable trajectory. A fencing weapon,
> however, is at all times under the direct control of another thinking
> being who will begin to react the moment you act, which dramatically
> reduces the predictability factor—there is simply no time for
> concentric contraction.
>
> As a side note, the bent knees of a fencer's guard position stretch
> the muscle under load for too long a period of time for there to be a
> plyometric benefit. However, I defy anyone to develop a useful lunge
> from a straight-legged guard position, as such a guard position
> effectively eliminates the contributions of the quadriceps and glutei
> maximi.
>
> Try pinning a dropped glove against a wall from extension distance
> with a foil or an epee, and see which produces the better result: the
> supple smooth extension or the explosive extension. The smooth
> extension feels slower, but will consistently pin the glove partway
> down the wall. The explosive extension feels faster, but will almost
> always arrive too late, allowing the glove to hit the floor. The same
> thing is true with this exercise at lunge distance. Clearly, the
> slower-feeling smooth action arrives earlier, with the added bonus of
> occurring without any visual cue to telegraph the fencer's intent.
>
> In fencing, it is not raw speed that is important, but the time
> elapsed from the visual, auditory, and/or tactile stimulus until the
> weapon tip or edge arrives at the desired point in space-time, as well
> as the timing of the action. The smooth action is generally the one
> that achieves this goal.
>
> Finally, the biggest problem with ANY strength/speed training program
> in fencing was accurately captured by a number of coaches at the
> conference: fencing is such a highly technical sport that it is nearly
> impossible to find time for plyometrics or anything else besides
> fencing training. All the speed and endurance in the world does you no
> good if you don't understand distance, tempo, right of way, technique,
> and tactics. The average fencer spends a couple of hours a week
> fencing, with more competitive fencers as high as 10-15 hours a week—
> for year after year after year as they work to improve their technical
> and tactical games. Where in the world are these folks going to find
> time to squeeze in 1-3 hours a week of additional training—without
> training full time like Mariel Zagunis or Rebecca Ward) and without
> having the technical and tactical aspects of their game suffer?
>
> I know we have wandered off topic from the original post, so I'll go
> back to teaching fencing now. Actually, given the late hour, I'll go
> to bed....
>
> -Mike
>
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2008, at 6:56 PM, David Chessler wrote:
>
> > There are a couple of books on fitness specifically for fencers. I
> > have seen
> > others in this series, and there is really only one chapter
> > specifically on
> > fencing, as I recall:
> > The Ultimate Guide to Weight Training for Fencing
> >
http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Weight-Training-Fencing-Sports/dp/1932549080/ref=\
sr_1_39?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1221369105&sr=1-39
> >
> > This is a different book on strength training for fencing. I have
> > not seen
> > this book or others in the series. Several suppliers handle it.
> > http://www.blade-fencing.com/store/item.htm?itemid=606
> >
http://www.amazon.com/Strength-Training-Fencers-Harry-James/dp/0978902203/ref=sr\
_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1227235919&sr=1-1
> >
> > There is a carry-over between oriental martial arts (especially
> > karate) and
> > fencing. I have read other books by this author. Speed training is a
> > new
> > specialty, and there should be a carry over to fencing, though it
> > might
> > involve some different muscle groups.
> > Speed Training : How to Develop Your Maximum Speed for Martial Arts
> >
http://www.amazon.com/Speed-Training-Develop-Maximum-Martial/dp/0873648595/ref=p\
d_sim_b_3
> >
> > I have a copy of the following book. It has a lot of drills for
> > strip fencing,
> > many of which are applicable to rapier. It is easy to get from many
> > suppliers,
> > probably including amazon
> > http://www.blue-gauntlet.com/store/products/382
> >
> > Here are a couple of books. I've seen the Plyometrics book. It's a
> > technique
> > for developing speed and power in sudden, "explosive" movements.
> > Fencing uses
> > such movements, but many other sports don't, and most strength
> > training does
> > not develop speed. The Barth/Beck books is a translation of the
> > training of
> > the German olympic fencing team. I've read it. It has a chapter on
> > strength,
> > etc, training, that seems good and up-to-date. The book on mental
> > preparation
> > is for completeness--one of the people in my practice has a copy and
> > finds it
> > helpful.
> > Power Plyometrics The Complete Program (McNeely/Sandler) Ref: BMS2
> > The Complete Guide to Fencing (Barth/Beck) 2006 Ref: BB12
> > One Touch at a Time (A Kogler) Ref: BK4
> > http://www.leonpaulusa.com/fencing/acatalog/Shop_Home_Books_97.html
> > http://shop.fencing.net/product_p/fb-1touch.htm
> >
> > ------ Original Message ------
> > Received: Thu, 20 Nov 2008 01:43:13 PM EST
> > From: Michael Heggen <michael@...>
> > To: classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [CFML] Re: Sprints?
> >
> >> The best exercise for fencing always has been and continues to be...
> >> fencing!
> >>
> >> (Strength training, properly applied, can also be beneficial, of
> >> course, but that's a separate issue.)
> >>
> >> Instead of running sprints to improve your endurance, do more line
> >> drills (solo or with a group) and paired drills emphasizing footwork.
> >> You'll improve your endurance and you'll be training your body to
> >> perform fencing actions better at the same time.
> >>
> >> After a proper warm-up (no stretching!), work on a mixture of
> >> advances, retreats, lunges, pattinandos, and balestra-lunges, staying
> >> in continuous motion and varying the tempo and size of your
> >> movements.
> >> If you can, do this with your foil. If the foil is a distraction,
> >> then
> >> set the foil aside until such time that the footwork no longer
> >> requires conscious thought. If you are working alone and have access
> >> to a mirror, use it to monitor the correctness of your movements. As
> >> you get better, try visualizing a "shadow fencer" as your opponent
> >> during line drills.
> >>
> >> Keep the intensity at such a point that you are just shy of huffing
> >> and puffing. You should not be working so hard that you cannot speak
> >> fairly easily. If you have a heart rate monitor (available for $50 or
> >> less at Rite-Aid, Walgreen's, etc.), keep your heart rate in the
> >> range
> >> of your anaerobic threshold (AT) down to to ten beats per minute
> >> below
> >> that.
> >>
> >> AT = 180 - your age - 10 (based on what you are describing for your
> >> current condition) *
> >>
> >> So, if you are 30 years old, keep your heart rate in the range of
> >> 130-140 beats per minute. This will not seem like you are working
> >> "hard enough", but you will be building your aerobic endurance and
> >> enabling your body to do more with less effort. Going beyond that
> >> will
> >> be training your anaerobic fitness, and that's not what you need to
> >> work on right now....
> >>
> >> As you begin to fatigue, you will not be able to maintain the
> >> intensity of your workout within your target heart rate range. Now
> >> it's time to start cooling down. Gradually reduce your intensity so
> >> that your heart rate slowly drops down to where it was when you
> >> started your warm up. As a rule of thumb, a one-hour aerobic workout
> >> should have 10-15 minutes of warm up and the same amount of cool
> >> down.
> >> If you're fatiguing during a bout, you will probably want to start
> >> with a shorter workout—say, 30 minutes, with 7-8 minutes at each end
> >> in warm up and cool down.
> >>
> >> Disclaimer: Consult your physician before beginning any exercise
> >> program—especially if you are overweight, have cardiac issues, or
> >> have
> >> a history of other serious illnesses or musculoskeletal issues.
> >>
> >> After you've been doing this for a few days and become familiar with
> >> the tempo you need to maintain your target heart rate, you might
> >> experiment with a mix of music at the appropriate tempo. Use music
> >> with an easily discernible beat for most of your workout—it may be
> >> that music you do not normally listen to works best, as the beat is
> >> what is important. The tempo of the music should fit with the tempo
> >> of
> >> your footwork. Using music can help you to learn about the tempo of
> >> your own footwork and how to change it. You can gradually increase
> >> and
> >> decrease the tempo at the beginning and end of your music mix to help
> >> you with your warm up and cool down. If you have iTunes and a Mac,
> >> there is a very nice application called Tangerine that will
> >> automatically calculate the tempo of your music in iTunes and will
> >> even build playlists based on tempo. There is probably a similar
> >> product out there for Windows.
> >> http://www.potionfactory.com/tangerine/
> >> Disclaimer: I have no connection with the company—I just like the
> >> product.
> >>
> >> Good luck!
> >>
> >> -Mike
> >>
> >>
> >> * For more information, see The High Performance Heart by Philip
> >> Maffetone.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Michael Heggen
> >> certified 3-weapon moniteur, US Fencing Coaches Association
> >> head instructor, Salem Classical Fencing
> >> 354 Belmont Street NE
> >> Salem OR 97301
> >> 503-375-9209
> >> http://www.salemclassicalfencing.org
> >> michael@...
> >>
> >> This e-mail may have my digital signature attached.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Nov 19, 2008, at 3:11 PM, classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com wrote:
> >>
> >>> Classical Fencing Mailing List
> >>> Messages In This Digest (1 Message)
> >>> 1.
> >>> Sprints? From: Rebecca Warner
> >>> View All Topics | Create New TopicMessage
> >>> 1.
> >>> Sprints?
> >>> Posted by: "Rebecca Warner" slumberparties_bybecca@...
> >>> slumberparties_bybecca
> >>> Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:28 pm (PST)
> >>>
> >>> Would running sprints be a good way to train my body to not tire
> >>> easily in a bout?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for any advice,
> >>>
> >>> Becca
> >>>
> >>> Sent from my iPhone
> >>>
> >>> Back to topReply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post
> >>> Messages in this topic (1)
> >>> RECENT ACTIVITY
> >>> Visit Your Group
> >>> Health Zone
> >>> Look your best!
> >>> Groups to help you
> >>> look & feel great.
> >>> Yahoo! News
> >>> Odd News
> >>> You won't believe
> >>> it, but it's true
> >>> Share Photos
> >>> Put your favorite
> >>> photos and
> >>> more online.
> >>> Need to Reply?
> >>> Click one of the "Reply" links to respond to a specific message in
> >>> the Daily Digest.
> >>> Create New Topic | Visit Your Group on the Web
> >>> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Calendar
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> The CFML is sponsored in part by Twin Arms Fencing, featuring custom
> >>> Italian foils. www.twinarmsfencing.com
> >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>> MARKETPLACE
> >>> From kitchen basics to easy recipes - join the Group from Kraft
> >>> Foods
> >>>
> >>> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required)
> >>> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Individual | Switch
> >>> format to Traditional
> >>> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> The CFML is sponsored in part by Twin Arms Fencing, featuring custom
> >> Italian foils. www.twinarmsfencing.com
> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Michael Heggen
> certified 3-weapon moniteur, US Fencing Coaches Association
> head instructor, Salem Classical Fencing
> 354 Belmont Street NE
> Salem OR 97301
> 503-375-9209
> http://www.salemclassicalfencing.org
> michael@...
>
> This e-mail may have my digital signature attached.
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Twin Arms Fencing, featuring custom
> Italian foils. www.twinarmsfencing.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>