Hi all,

I realize I'm outnumbered on this, but I thought I'd 'splain my
reasoning anyway.

The question is: can the street in the Toronto video, or other,
similar streets, be ridden safely? Or can they be called safe streets?
Those are two very different questions.

I understand that cyclists who "get it" can ride between trolly tracks.
Like Kalle and Bob. Or myself.

But I don't see how they can be called safe streets.

If you tell people where to ride, many of them won't ride there. Or
they'll follow your instructions badly, and butcher the transition from
between tracks to outside of tracks.

A lot of people don't think very far ahead, and simply lack the ability
to plan a transition from in between tracks to outside of the tracks.
And many have poor bike handling skills. Throw in a dark, rainy night,
a few distractions (a siren approaching from behind, just for example),
and you are sure to overtax the abilities of someone who would be
reasonably safe on a normal street.

Again, I didn't intend to discuss what we on this list can do. I
intended to discuss safe cycling for the public at large.

Of course, after seeing all those stupid sidepath photos from St.
Petersburg, maybe the train tracks aren't so bad after all?

John Schubert
Limeport.org

-- John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 forester@...
www.johnforester.com

Hi all,

I realize I'm outnumbered on this, but I thought I'd 'splain my
reasoning anyway.

The question is:  can the street in the Toronto video, or other,
similar streets, be ridden safely?  Or can they be called safe streets?
  Those are two very different questions.

I understand that cyclists who "get it" can ride between trolly tracks.
  Like Kalle and Bob.  Or myself.

But I don't see how they can be called safe streets.

If you tell people where to ride, many of them won't ride there.  Or
they'll follow your instructions badly, and butcher the transition from
between tracks to outside of tracks.

A lot of people don't think very far ahead, and simply lack the ability
to plan a transition from in between tracks to outside of the tracks.
And many have poor bike handling skills.  Throw in a dark, rainy night,
a few distractions (a siren approaching from behind, just for example),
and you are sure to overtax the abilities of someone who would be
reasonably safe on a normal street.

Again, I didn't intend to discuss what we on this list can do.  I
intended to discuss safe cycling for the public at large.

Of course, after seeing all those stupid sidepath photos from St.
Petersburg, maybe the train tracks aren't so bad after all?

John Schubert
Limeport.org

In the San Francisco area I cycled a lot on streets with streetcar
tracks, and others with railroad tracks, but I don't remember regularly
using any as narrow as that one pictured, and we knew enough to avoid
crossing at a slight angle. It was rarely necessary, or desirable, to
cycle between the two tracks in one direction, but it was necessary and
desirable to cycle between the two sets of tracks when preparing for
left turns. However, at Grove and University, in Berkeley, there were
double streetcar tracks on both streets, with switches and turnouts to
allow practically any movement. I was making a left turn ahead of a
streetcar, and I think the tracks were not wet, but my rear wheel spun
out on that sheet of steel, and I was observing, at very close range, no
more than six feet away, what shall we call it, a cyclist catcher?


--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481    forester@...
www.johnforester.com

John Schubert wrote:
> The street with the train tracks crowding cyclists into
> the door zone can't be ridden on safely.

Why not?  There are several streets in San Francisco where the tracks
look like this, leaving the choice of crowding parked cars, crowding
the yellow line, or traveling the middle of the lane.  I ride between
the rails, taking care to cross them more perpendicularly than she
did.

> She should tell cyclists to avoid that
> street and use a parallel route.

What if their destination is on that street?

--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Schubley@... wrote:
>
>
> The street with the train tracks crowding cyclists into the door zone
> can't be ridden on safely.

Oh, yes they can. Just ride where the tram goes. I've done it a million times
and never delayed a tram, cause on streets like that trams have plenty stops and
never catch you. Never had a problem with motorists having to wait a bit, cause
they understand that the cyclist is between the tracks and stays between the
tracks. Yes, you have to be slow and carefull at intersections when the tracks
diverge, but that's life. Ban the trams, I say and get trolley buses instead,
but elected officials don't agree.

>She should tell cyclists to avoid that
> street and use a parallel route.
>
Would have never got home with that advice.

> But no, there will be no flowers on my bike.
>
Aero ones under handlebar tape maybe?

Speaking of Toronto, here's a link to Toronto Bicycle/Motor-Vehicle Collision
Study (2003):
http://www.toronto.ca/transportation/publications/bicycle_motor-vehicle/index.ht\
m

Kalle

Hi all,

Let's not overreact to the Toronto video.

The video shows a bad mistake -- riding in the door zone on a street
where you can't ride out of the door zone without hitting those train
tracks.

BUT:

The narrator gives no sign that she's hard core paint and path.  She
appears to be on board with getting cyclists to assume responsibility
for their own safety.

She's the kind of person we could either.... turn on to our insights
... or turn off with our venom.

Let (s)he who has never made a mistake in print toss the first stone.

This is a teachable moment.  Someone can contact her and say, "We saw
some real charm in your video, but there is one thing we think you
ought to correct."

The street with the train tracks crowding cyclists into the door zone
can't be ridden on safely.  She should tell cyclists to avoid that
street and use a parallel route.

Also: I thought the flowers were cute, and I suspect they actually do
at least occasionally cause other road users to give her a bit more
attention and deference.  Let her have her personal idiosyncracies, for
goodness's sake.  As if the people on this list don't have personal
idiosyncacies!

But no, there will be no flowers on my bike.

John Schubert
Limeport.org

--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "poteit0r" <poteit0r@...> wrote:
>
> I am at a loss here... the blog's author blames the accident on the truck's
blind spot.

As far as i understood, the truck turned left across the tram tracks and traffic
lane into a stationary cyclist on the bikelane. It was a T-intersection with no
leg to turn into where the truck turned into. That is just the accident type
that much paint and some traffic calming will decrease.


> Am I missing something here or is the guy just braindead?
>
Cycling issue is an idiot magnet. "We put some paint here and then many cyclist
will come and be safe cause it'll be safe when there is many cyclists." Anyone
with half a brain will not touch that mess with a ten foot pole. Damn, I wish I
hated cycling; it will be so fun to see the whole BS and just laught at it.


> http://amsterdamize.com/2009/06/23/cause-and-effect/
>
If you don't like the effect, stop producing the cause.

I posted a comment, tried to speak their language.

Kalle

That's the way practically everybody does in Helsinki; sharing a gap between a
tram and the doorzone(or curb) so small a gap that I don't even acknowledge it a
gap. (Never heard anybody actually being killed by it.) Got to respect the lane
sharing skills of the inferiority crowd, I don't have those superhuman skills so
I have to bike the easy way.

That was really one funny video until I realized it wasn't comedy. Are you sure
that they didn't edit out the part where the Can-Bike Crew crushes in, carries
out the clown (and her vegetive vehicle) and kicks some real knowledge?

Kalle

In their paradigm motorists are responsible for never hitting
bicyclists, no matter what bicyclists are doing.  That's why they
focus on developing blind spot mirror systems for truckers rather than
on teaching bicyclists to avoid passing on the right.

Serge


On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 10:06 AM, poteit0r <poteit0r@...> wrote:
>
>
> I am at a loss here... the blog's author blames the accident on the truck's
blind spot. Am I missing something here or is the guy just braindead?
>
> http://amsterdamize.com/2009/06/23/cause-and-effect/
>
> Don't miss either this other post, in which he reports on his talk with a
spanish girl in Amsterdam...
>
> >
> > Maria continued to talk about how she loves riding
> > (and this bike in particular), but how she hates
> > riding around Dam Square finding her way to her other work,
> > because of what she considers bad bike lanes
> > (not completely segregated) (...)
> >
>
> Txarli
> http://bicilibre.wordpress.com
>
>

I am at a loss here... the blog's author blames the accident on the truck's
blind spot. Am I missing something here or is the guy just braindead?

http://amsterdamize.com/2009/06/23/cause-and-effect/

Don't miss either this other post, in which he reports on his talk with a
spanish girl in Amsterdam...

>
> Maria continued to talk about how she loves riding
> (and this bike in particular), but how she hates
> riding around Dam Square finding her way to her other work,
> because of what she considers bad bike lanes
> (not completely segregated) (...)
>

Txarli
http://bicilibre.wordpress.com

Kat Iverson wrote:
> Keri Caffrey wrote:
>> This video contains the scariest thing I've ever seen someone do in a
>> "bike safety" video. You'll know what I mean.
>>
>> <http://www.thestar.com/videozone/638869>
>>
>> If you'll excuse me, I need to run out to Michaels to get some
>> flowers for my Surly.
> The flowers are an excellent touch.  She's already prepared for her
> own  funeral. You don't need flowers on your bike, Keri.

Gee, door zone, trolley tracks and flowers all at the same time:
<http://rmshant.googlepages.com/Yvonne.jpg>

And although she talks about cyclists having the rights of drivers of
vehicles, she doesn't say much about responsibilities. And she doesn't
say a thing about not passing right turning cars on the right.

Bob Shanteau

The flowers are an excellent touch.  She's already prepared for her own
funeral.  You don't need flowers on your bike, Keri.

Kat


Keri Caffrey wrote:
> This video contains the scariest thing I've ever seen someone do in a "bike
safety" video. You'll know what I mean.
>
> http://www.thestar.com/videozone/638869
>
> If you'll excuse me, I need to run out to Michaels to get some flowers for my
Surly.
>
>

I suppose this means if someone can speak clearly, anyone can be an
expert on bicycling safety.  You are quite correct, Keri, the scariest
thing practically reaches out and grabs you. I know it did me!

Of course, suggesting colourful flowers for an assist to being visible
to motorists is useful advice too.

Sheesh.


--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Keri Caffrey" <keribird@...> wrote:
>
> This video contains the scariest thing I've ever seen someone do in a
"bike safety" video. You'll know what I mean.
>
> http://www.thestar.com/videozone/638869
>
> If you'll excuse me, I need to run out to Michaels to get some flowers
for my Surly.
>

This video contains the scariest thing I've ever seen someone do in a "bike
safety" video. You'll know what I mean.

http://www.thestar.com/videozone/638869

If you'll excuse me, I need to run out to Michaels to get some flowers for my
Surly.

--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, "Recumbent Bob" <anerobe@...> wrote:
>
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10274019-1.html
>
> Think of the paint we could save... ;)
>


I loved it so much, I wrote some ad copy for them:

Make your own door zone bike lane!

Don’t wait for incompetent facility design to direct you too close to parked
cars, strap on these lasers and do it yourself today! Want to make a left turn
from the right curb? Bring your own bike lane that does it with you!

..

It speaks volumes about our culture that the guy in the video is that clueless.

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/zebra-bicycle-path-devider.php?dcitc=th_\
rss_cars

but its ok, its recycled materials...  Includes a reference to the
usual survey about how a barrier makes people feel safer.  The author
of the article can be reached at petz@...

--
-dp-
Founder, The New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society; The NERDS
http://www.the-nerds.org/

This planet needs a lot more kids who think taking a lawnmower apart is more
fun than playing a videogame

Remember those leather hairnets that predated actual design and
testing of helmets?  Well they have been re-incarnated.
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/folding-bike-helmet.php?dcitc=th_rss_car\
s

Second treehugger post on bicycles that praises form over actual function.

--
-dp-
Founder, The New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society; The NERDS
http://www.the-nerds.org/

This planet needs a lot more kids who think taking a lawnmower apart is more
fun than playing a videogame

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10274019-1.html

Think of the paint we could save... ;)

North American edition of John Franklin's "Cyclecraft" can now be ordered from:

http://www.bernan.com/Online_Catalog/Title_Page.aspx?TitleID=81018864

Kalle

Michael Graff wrote:
>
>
>

> On the other hand, there are at least a couple positive things we
> could say about this design:
>
> This might be the first ever bikeway that was DELIBERATELY placed
> ENTIRELY OUTSIDE the door zone.

I'd be surprised if there aren't quite a few bike lanes that have
purposely been done as well as can be expected. We've got one here
purposefully out of the door zone due to my efforts (I tried to quash
the bike lane from being created but failing that made sure it was
good). Does Chapel Hill NC have the only non-DZ bike lane in the country?

Wayne

I suspect even the Wizard of Oz doesn't have enough green paint to
expand this design beyond a few token streets.

And I wonder about a few operational issues, like how do you prepare
for a left turn?

On the other hand, there are at least a couple positive things we
could say about this design:

This might be the first ever bikeway that was DELIBERATELY placed
ENTIRELY OUTSIDE the door zone.

This is also one of the rare cases where a sharrow was DELIBERATELY
placed in the CENTER of the travel lane.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2009 at 12:08, Peter Rosenfeld <jprosenfeld@...> wrote:
>
>
> Long Beach, CA has put in some interesting sharrows on a narrow lane with car
parking along the side.
>
> The sharrows are very wide green stripes that almost fill the lane with a bike
sharrow symbol painted in the middle. The idea is to get inexperienced
bicyclists to ride further away from the parked cars and thus reduce dooring.
>
> Picture and discussion by the blogger here:
> http://russroca.blogspot.com/2009/06/lbc-gets-sharrows-and-big-ass-green.html
>
> There's been some immediate negative criticisms by motorists about the
sharrows. This blogger reports on interviewing one upset resident before the
paint was even dry and points out that the sharrows have changed nothing
whatsoever - they change nothing about where bicyclists are allowed to ride nor
have they removed any rights or privledges from motorists, they simply point out
where a bicyclist SHOULD ride to be safe.
> http://russroca.blogspot.com/2009/06/not-everyone-is-sharrowing-love.html
>
> But what he is missing is that most people don't WANT bikes to ride safely  -
they want them to ride "out of the way". This includes many bicyclists.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

My website host has fixed its problems and now displays my review of the
Pucher and Buehler paper on education. The review appears at:

http://johnforester.com/Articles/Social/Pucher%20Education%202.pdf

--
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481    forester@...
www.johnforester.com

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Hi all,

My buddy Steve Schmitt quoted the following:

> fyi - from Roadbikerider.com:
>
> Cyclists in Victoria, Australia, now face 5 years in jail or a $68,000
> fine if they seriously injure or kill a pedestrian. The new law
> replaces a top penalty of $567.

and asked:

how does this compare with their penalties for seriously injuring or
killing
a pedestrian by motor vehicle?

To which I reply:

Obviously, there's no one answer to that.

The Australia information doesn't go into detail, but I suspect it's a
maximum penalty.  It'll be a while before anyone has a sense of how
much jail time perps actually serve for this violation.  I'd be
surprised if it comes close to five years -- but then again, you could
write a whole book about what I don't know about Australian criminal
law.

My casual observation has been that a motorist who causes the death of
another person through careless driving, when he gets prosecuted and
convicted (which isn't often enough), typically serves about a year in
jail.  Five years would be on the stiff side, and probably go to
someone who was a repeat offender, grossly drunk, said things that
offended the jury, etc.

This is an area that begs for lengthy nuanced discussion (but not in
today's e-mail!).  For example, the simple offense of operating while
drunk is a greater danger to society in a car than on a bicycle -- but
the danger is not completely absent for the bicycle operator.  Now:
when a drunken operator kills someone, should he get any slack because
he was "only" on a bicycle?  And should mere carelessness get a free
pass (as it so often does)?  Why should alcohol consumption (and, more
recently, cell phone use) be the only agent of carelessness that gets
tough criminal prosecution?

John Schubert
Limeport.org

--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Pein <wpein@...> wrote:
> I doubt that much paint, guaranteed to wear off (to say nothing of its
> manufacture), is eco friendly.

Nor cheap.

Wayne, the cool thing is, when you mix ALL those colors together... you get
black.

--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Wayne Pein <wpein@...> wrote:
>
> I think that gratuitous amount of paint elevates the paint is great
> syndrome to its illogical conclusion. But maybe not! Perhaps ALL
> roads/lanes should be painted some fun color to indicate some right or
> place to operate.
>
> Green=bicycles
> Blue=motorized wheelchairs, electric bikes, other low power MVs
> Purple=motorcycles
> Red=emergency vehicles
> Brown=heavy trucks
> Orange=cars and light trucks
> Yellow=submarines and other nuclear powered devices
>
> I doubt that much paint, guaranteed to wear off (to say nothing of its
> manufacture), is eco friendly.
>
> Wayne
>

Pete van Nuys wrote:
> That's the cool thing about educating cyclists,
> you teach them to deal with all of the hazards.

I tell people "We can teach you ways to improve your safety even on
such dangerous facilities as bike lanes and multi-use paths".  That
brings a mental double-take :-)