chainguard : Messages : 27509-27513 of 28248

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#27509

From: Schubley@...
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 4:48 pm
Subject: Safety & trolly tracks

schubertjd

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Hi all,



I realize I'm outnumbered on this, but I thought I'd 'splain my

reasoning anyway.



The question is:  can the street in the Toronto video, or other,

similar streets, be ridden safely?  Or can they be called safe streets?

  Those are two very different questions.



I understand that cyclists who "get it" can ride between trolly tracks.

  Like Kalle and Bob.  Or myself.



But I don't see how they can be called safe streets.



If you tell people where to ride, many of them won't ride there.  Or

they'll follow your instructions badly, and butcher the transition from

between tracks to outside of tracks.



A lot of people don't think very far ahead, and simply lack the ability

to plan a transition from in between tracks to outside of the tracks.

And many have poor bike handling skills.  Throw in a dark, rainy night,

a few distractions (a siren approaching from behind, just for example),

and you are sure to overtax the abilities of someone who would be

reasonably safe on a normal street.



Again, I didn't intend to discuss what we on this list can do.  I

intended to discuss safe cycling for the public at large.



Of course, after seeing all those stupid sidepath photos from St.

Petersburg, maybe the train tracks aren't so bad after all?



John Schubert

Limeport.org

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#27510

From: John Forester <forester@...>
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:28 pm
Subject: Re: [CG] Safety & trolley tracks

biketransengr

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I see, from John S's discussion below, that the safety of streets has to be evaluated on the basis of people who:
Don't think ahead
Can't plan to cross tracks as perpendicularly as possible
Have poor bike handling skills
Don't know how to ride in the dark
Don't know how to ride in rain
Are driven into making silly movements by the sound of a siren
And, presumably, have other collections of incompetencies that one would expect to accompany these.

Why should we competent cyclists be asked to evaluate roads for the incompetent? Do we do it better? Would any useful action be taken to implement our advice? For that matter, what do we know about the specific incompetencies of the incompetent?

I say that there is no way to make roads safe for the incompetent while still being useful for the competent. America approves of incompetent cyclists and designs for them, also without knowing their specific incompetencies. It is our task to arrange that the results of this design standard do not make competent cycling more dangerous or less useful. That means, largely, that we must be allowed to escape the designs for the incompetent.

You may think that this expresses callous disregard for the incompetent. Not quite. It expresses callous disregard for those who refuse to learn competence, and utter, complete abhorrence of those who advocate incompetence. Proper instruction has been available for thirty years, but our society is organized to abhor it, because our society wants the supposed results of incompetence.

We have far too much to do to waste time attempting to assist those who advocate incompetence. Let them stew in their own juice, for they would boil us in oil if they could.

Schubley@... wrote:

Hi all,

I realize I'm outnumbered on this, but I thought I'd 'splain my
reasoning anyway.

The question is: can the street in the Toronto video, or other,
similar streets, be ridden safely? Or can they be called safe streets?
Those are two very different questions.

I understand that cyclists who "get it" can ride between trolly tracks.
Like Kalle and Bob. Or myself.

But I don't see how they can be called safe streets.

If you tell people where to ride, many of them won't ride there. Or
they'll follow your instructions badly, and butcher the transition from
between tracks to outside of tracks.

A lot of people don't think very far ahead, and simply lack the ability
to plan a transition from in between tracks to outside of the tracks.
And many have poor bike handling skills. Throw in a dark, rainy night,
a few distractions (a siren approaching from behind, just for example),
and you are sure to overtax the abilities of someone who would be
reasonably safe on a normal street.

Again, I didn't intend to discuss what we on this list can do. I
intended to discuss safe cycling for the public at large.

Of course, after seeing all those stupid sidepath photos from St.
Petersburg, maybe the train tracks aren't so bad after all?

John Schubert
Limeport.org

-- John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St. Lemon Grove CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 forester@...
www.johnforester.com

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#27511

From: Eric Vey <junker@...>
Date: Mon Jul 6, 2009 11:47 pm
Subject: Re: [CG] Safety & trolly tracks

ericvey

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Schubley@... wrote:

"A lot of people don't think very far ahead, and simply lack the ability
to plan a transition from in between tracks to outside of the tracks."

I must admit to being one of them. About a month ago I crossed some tracks at not a very high degree of angle.
My steed fell out from under me, I landed on my feet, picked up and went on, but still it surprised me.

When I watched the video, I saw her cross at less of an angle than I did.
I was surprised that what happened to me didn't happen to her.

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#27512

From: "poteit0r" <poteit0r@...>
Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 11:04 am
Subject: Re: Safety & trolly tracks

poteit0r

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--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Schubley@... wrote:

>

> Hi all,

>

> I realize I'm outnumbered on this,

>



Count me in among the outnumbered ones. Eliminating street hazards (tram rails

or other kind) is good both for "competent" and "incompetent" cyclists. Just

because we might have attained a level of expertise that allows us to ride

through them safely, doesn't mean that we are entitled to ignore those hazards

when talking about cycling policies and engineering.



--- In chainguard@yahoogroups.com, Schubley@... wrote:

>

> Why should we competent cyclists be asked to evaluate roads

> for the incompetent?

>



Because if there is someone around able to distinguish between real and

imaginary hazards, it is (or it should be) us. The segregationist camp is all to

happy to bundle together all kind of actual or fantasy, mild or lethal dangers

in their effort to push their agenda. The discipline to point out existing

dangers, even when they do not affect us, is part of the process of separating

reality from fiction, and it is a responsability we cannot shoulder off because

there is nobody else in this field to take it up.



Of course, the installation of tram rails obeys much stronger forces than us and

is not likely to be affected by whatever we think of it, but in my opinion that

is not reason to be blas� about the shooting just because we can dodge the

bullets.



Txarli

If bike lanes are the answer

you got the question wrong.

http://bicilibre.wordpress.com

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#27513

From: Peter Rosenfeld <jprosenfeld@...>
Date: Tue Jul 7, 2009 1:46 pm
Subject: Re: [CG] Re: Safety & trolly tracks

jprosenfeld

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I bicycle around the trolley tracks in Philadelphia frequently. Because of this I'm very aware of them. On the narrower streets or streets with parking to the right the only thing you can do is "take the lane". As long as you are aware of the tracks and take the lane, it's pretty easy. Turning is also easy if you are already in the middle. But I HAVE had an emergency vehicle behind me and had to get out of the way in the middle of a block. The only way to do that is to dismount and pick up your bike to move it over the tracks. There's no way on a narrow street with cars parked near the tracks that you can angle over the rails.

If people aren't familiar with urban bicycling near trolley tracks, the results can be disastrous. And a college friend of mine, with more more years than me of vehicular cycling, took his one and only serious spill on a bike when his rear-wheel got caught on a wet day.

So sure, if one is very careful and aware, one can deal with tracks. But most of us slip up now and again and those tracks might get us.

But I wouldn't want to remove them to reduce the road hazards. The trolleys are a legitimate and useful segment of traffic around here.

--- On Tue, 7/7/09, poteit0r <poteit0r@...> wrote:

From: poteit0r <poteit0r@...>
Subject: [CG] Re: Safety & trolly tracks
To: chainguard@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, July 7, 2009, 7:04 AM

--- In chainguard@yahoogro ups.com, Schubley@... wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I realize I'm outnumbered on this,
>

Count me in among the outnumbered ones. Eliminating street hazards (tram rails or other kind) is good both for "competent" and "incompetent" cyclists. Just because we might have attained a level of expertise that allows us to ride through them safely, doesn't mean that we are entitled to ignore those hazards when talking about cycling policies and engineering.

--- In chainguard@yahoogro ups.com, Schubley@... wrote:
>
> Why should we competent cyclists be asked to evaluate roads
> for the incompetent?
>

Because if there is someone around able to distinguish between real and imaginary hazards, it is (or it should be) us. The segregationist camp is all to happy to bundle together all kind of actual or fantasy, mild or lethal dangers in their effort to push their agenda. The discipline to point out existing dangers, even when they do not affect us, is part of the process of separating reality from fiction, and it is a responsability we cannot shoulder off because there is nobody else in this field to take it up.

Of course, the installation of tram rails obeys much stronger forces than us and is not likely to be affected by whatever we think of it, but in my opinion that is not reason to be blas� about the shooting just because we can dodge the bullets.

Txarli
If bike lanes are the answer
you got the question wrong.
http://bicilibre. wordpress. com

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