Re: [CG] Freeway construction and cyclist prohibitions
Michael Graff asked the following questions:
1: "Is a "rolling pedestrian" the same thing as an "incompetent cyclist" or
is there a difference?"
A "rolling pedestrian" is a cyclist who operates in the pedestrian manner,
which typically means on pedestrian or pedestrian-like facilities but
without the care that most pedestrians exercise. "Incompetent cyclists" are
a much broader class of cyclists, those who fail to obey the rules of the
road for drivers of vehicle.
2: Is "in the pedestrian manner" the same thing as "incompetent cycling on
bikeways" or is there a difference?"
Operating in the pedestrian manner is operating somewhat in the pedestrian
manner, typically on pedestrian or pedestrian-like facilities, but, also
typically, without the care that most pedestrians exercise. "Incompetent
cycling on bikeways" refers to both a manner of operating and the
governmental policy for bicycle transportation. The governmental policy is
that of providing bikeways, which might be bike paths or bike lanes, for
cyclists to use on the grounds that the American cycling population is
incapable of operating on roadways in accordance with the rules of the road
for drivers of vehicles. The operating procedure is that which results from
that policy.
3: "I noticed that the first few paragraphs below used "pedestrian"
exclusively to describe non-vehicular cyclists, but that the last paragraph
switched to using "incompetent" to describe the same group. Was there a
change in meaning in the final paragraph, or just a change in connotation?"
In the final paragraph I refer to correcting the whole range of incompetent
cycling behavior, not just the rolling pedestrian type.
> > This is the classic issue. Should bicycle facilities be designed for
> operation by those bicycle riders who do not obey the rules of the road
> for drivers of vehicles, or for those cyclists who do obey the rules of
> the road for drivers of vehicles. The former require facilities which
> have to be operated in the pedestrian manner, even though some of the
> users are on bicycles and may be called rolling pedestrians. The latter
> require facilities which are well-designed roadways. We do not know of a
> highway system that is operable in some third manner, suited to bicycle
> speeds but non-vehicular movements. If it is argued that the Dutch system
> does this, that argument is false. The Dutch system has not been
> developed beyond the rolling pedestrian system and fails to allow
> operation either at normal bicycling speeds or with only normal roadway
delays.
>
> > If some bicycle riders wish to ride as rolling pedestrians, our system
> lets them do that on pedestrian facilities. As we know, such persons have
> a high accident rate because they generally choose to ride too fast and
> too carelessly. I certainly care for their welfare, but they don't care.
> The strength of the political powers that have been trying to force us
> to ride in their manner on facilities for rolling pedestrians have led me
> to conclude that we must protect our rights as drivers of vehicles even
> though this means leaving those who choose not to operate as drivers of
> vehicles to the fates that they have chosen for themselves. We vehicular
> cyclists have to insist on the validity of the criterion that to operate
> on the roadways one must operate as a driver of a vehicle, and that any
> other operating mode is both dangerous and inefficient.
> >
> > Certainly, we should care for these rolling pedestrians. However, the
> best way to care for them involves two distinct actions. One is to oppose
> with whatever organized power we can muster the government's program of
> incompetent cycling on bikeways. That will reduce the power of
> the organized forces, both governmental and private, now urging people
> to ride incompetently on bikeways. The other is to attract the
> incompetent, one by one, into learning lawful, competent cycling as
> drivers of vehicles. That's the best that we can do for the larger
> proportion of American bicyclists.
John Forester, MS, PE
Bicycle Transportation Engineer
7585 Church St.
Lemon Grove, CA 91945-2306
619-644-5481 www.johnforester.com
Some of the bike hostile features that I see around here (DE/MD/NJ/PA) on surface arterials-primary roads are: 1. Long entrance and exit lanes that take the...
CRKJLAW@...
Oct 26, 2004 3:42 pm
I believe you WAY overstate the problems these structures create for a properly trained bicyclist. Overstating the problems, scaring away bicyclists,...
JFS: I agree with Mr O'Brien in his opinion that Mr Law's concerns about dense fast traffic on unfriendly facilities are overstated. All my life I've ridden...
... (DE/MD/NJ/PA) on ... We have all of these problems here in NC. It's arterial design features like these that make cycling so unpleasant, that an ...
How would a MUTCD-compliant bike lane ameliorate ANY of these problems? The difficult high-speed turn lanes, etc. would still be there, with a bike lane added...
Hello kob2@..., In reference to your comment: è I believe you WAY overstate the problems these è structures create for a properly trained bicyclist....
CRKJLAW@...
Oct 26, 2004 6:34 pm
... Experience alone certainly doesn't seem to be provide cyclists with protection from holding such opinions. Consequently, even when I begin a ride with a...
... Absolutely not. We can not agree to that. That is my point. This belief must not be made part of VC advocacy. ... Maybe they can be. But most of the claims...
Hello jfscott@..., In reference to your comment: è JFS: I agree with Mr O'Brien in his opinion that Mr è Law's concerns about dense fast traffic on...
CRKJLAW@...
Oct 27, 2004 2:57 pm
... JFS: I have no way of knowing what proportion of cyclists can be characterized, as I did earlier, as "timid and fearful." I doubt that you know any more...
... "The city has nearly quadrupled the miles of bike paths, from on-street lanes to greenways, since 1997, and more people than ever are cycling." New York...
Comment below. ... JFS: who sez? What source? As compared to cycling levels when? There is also the little matter of the overall credibility these days of the...
... Said employee has questionable ethics too. He was largley responsible for re-writing the 1999 AASHTO bike guide. I contacted him to address the plagiarism...
... friendly" ... Here's the article link: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/03/nyregion/thecity/03bike.html?oref=login&hp "slvoid" posted the article in three...
Chris Law asserted: "I don't believe that the case is overstated for the overwhelming majority of adult cyclists. Please note Mr. Scott and O'Brien: I do ride...
I have some questions about meaning and connotation: Is a "rolling pedestrian" the same thing as an "incompetent cyclist" or is there a difference? Is "in the...
Michael Graff asked the following questions: 1: "Is a "rolling pedestrian" the same thing as an "incompetent cyclist" or is there a difference?" A "rolling...
... (snip) TF: Here's what I look at as being the difference: A competent rolling pedestrian must, by definition, be a dismounted cyclist (although being...
... I disagree. When done with sufficient care, it is possible to ride a bicycle on pedestrian facilities competently, without dismounting. How effective such...
I differentiated between competent and incompetent rolling ... dismounted ... a ... TF: What I wrote is consistent with that, because there's no such thing as...
... There is a kind of half-way house which I use sometimes in "pedestrian zones" that consists of standing with the left foot on the left pedal and kicking...
Ken: Even most VCs concede that young children, riding tricycles and training-wheeled bikes, and when first learning to ride bicycles, belong on pedestrian...
... My current life partner is a wheelchair user. No, I would NOT advocate her to use her wheelchair in the road instead of the sidewalk. While wheelchairs...
... If vehicular bicyclists are riding on vehicular facilities per TF's statement, what objection could anybody on this list possibly have to sidewalk riding? ...
... I agree. I do the same thing EXCEPT I DISMOUNT my bike and WALK it when on pedestrian facilities. That way, I maintain my principle of not riding in the...
... But convincing, say, another 92% of that population to join us would. Growing that population with people who understand bicycling as we do, would also be...